England XV vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Injuries have struck England hard in the past couple of weeks. Foden, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Farrell, Morgan, Wood, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Slater and Cole all look set to miss out England's first match with Wales through injury. Ford our current first choice fly half suffered a mild concussion against Glasgow whilst his kicking was inconsistent too, something which has been affecting his game the last few matches.

Following these injuries this would be my XV and subs to take on Wales.

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Wilson
4. G.Kruis
5. D.Attwood
6. J.Haskell
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Vunipola

The front row would remain unchanged after going so well in the Autumn internationals. Kruis will come in for the injured Lawes, although I think England would have opted for Parling had he been fit. In the back row Haskell will come in for the injured Wood, however, I think on form Haskell would have been pushing very close for a starting spot anyway. Vunipola is offered another chance with Morgan out injured.

09. B.Youngs
10. D.Cipriani
11. J.May
12. B.Barritt
13. L.Burrell
14. A.Watson
15. M.Brown

At half back Youngs has been in good form for Leicester this season and has emerged as a leader too. Cipriani would get the nod over Ford on form, he has a huge chance with Farrell out injured and I think he might just take it. In the centres Barritt will be selected on merit in his more comfortable role of inside centre, I feel his defensive leadership will be integral against Wales. Burrell has also had a strong season and deserves his chance. Our back three although a little lightweight has bags of pace and enthusiasm and will be looking to kick on from the Autumn.

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Corbisiero
18. K.Brookes
19. G.Kitchener
20. C.Clark
21. D.Care
22. G.Ford
23. J.Joseph

What a bench! Youngs and Corbisiero are both Lions whilst Brookes impressed when he came on in the Autumn. Kitchener is in the form of his life at the moment too, so will relish this opportunity. It was a tough call between Easter and Clark, but I'd go with the latter who has been in top form for Northampton and it's time to see if he can sink or swim at international level. Care, Ford and Joseph provide a lethal attacking threat and will look to inject something different when they come on. Joseph is very unlucky to miss out on a starting spot, he has been electric all season and put in another impressive showing yesterday against Glasgow.

What would be your XV?

Haskell at 6.

I would guess the surname of the guy at 5 starts with a K.

Joseph at 13.

12 probably 36, and he will do fine. (well maybe a couple of shockers and one thing that is actually really good) but generally OK.

Watson vs Nowell sounds like it is going to be closer than expected. I dont mind either.

We are going to have a much faster/ more agile back line than Wales, they are going to have the muscle.

Make up of the subs bench will be interesting.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

I cannot say if Hartley stands up on purpose or not.

But i have heard it say that some props have developed the fine heart of pulling back just as the scrum is about to engage. Surely if this is the case this should be looked at and stamped out......dont you think?

I think we'll see Kitchener ahead of Kruis. Kruis didn't disgrace himself in the autumn by any stretch, but I've got this nagging suspicion that they'll be happier with Kitchener in the circumstances and with his form. Looks like more of a natural leader to me and this game is going to be brutal.

jelly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Aye, Hartley always seems to get an easy ride from referees.

He does when it comes to doing what he does in the scrums, come on, you must have seen him doing it, he does it at nearly every scrum.

Kitchener/Attwood is as brutal a combo as we could put together (barring Garvey, but then we do need to have a working line out)

lostinwales wrote:Kitchener/Attwood is as brutal a combo as we could put together (barring Garvey, but then we do need to have a working line out)

Garvey is brutal as a blindside but not sure he qualifies as a heavyweight second row does he?

EDIT - Wikipedia has him down as 20st. Blimey.

thomh wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Kitchener/Attwood is as brutal a combo as we could put together (barring Garvey, but then we do need to have a working line out)

Garvey is brutal as a blindside but not sure he qualifies as a heavyweight second row does he?

EDIT - Wikipedia has him down as 20st. Blimey.

That was what I was thinking, and he used to play a lot more second row. I don't know where last Friday's game leaves him

GF - Surely Kruis is the man in posession in front of Kitchener!

I dont think we have much of a choice at 12 - 36 is pretty much the last man standing.

Not that I like it much but I think SL will select -
Marler, Youngs, Cole, Attwood, Kruis, Haskell, Robshaw, Vaunipola
Care, Ford, May, Twelvetrees, Joseph, Nowell, Brown.

Not sure on the state of other injuries -
Could have Watson in for Nowell - both cover wing and 15.
Cips will prob be on bench, Ben Youngs too.
Corbisiero if fit and Hartley too

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Works both ways - both sides IMO have a long history of trying to gain unfair advantage in the scrums by dubious means. I hate seeing teams playing for penalties at the scrums. Nice the Wolfhounds / Saxons did not do this Pulling down / boring in / not taking the hit/ pushing early / squint feeds etc etc.

Kruis will be selected ahead of Kitch.

Team I expect to see selected is as follows (with the man who has been replaced for the Aus test in brackets):

Marler, Hartley, Brookes (Wilson), Attwood, Kruis (Lawes), Haskell (Wood), Robshaw, Vunipola (Morgan)
Wigglesworth (Youngs), Ford, May, Twelvetrees, Burrell (Barritt), Watson, Brown

Wigglesworth for Youngs the only change not forced by injury.

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Works both ways - both sides IMO have a long history of trying to gain unfair advantage in the scrums by dubious means.  I hate seeing teams playing for penalties at the scrums.  Nice the Wolfhounds / Saxons did not do this  Pulling down / boring in / not taking the hit/ pushing early / squint feeds etc etc.

I think that was more to do with Hennesy's refereeing to be honest.

You mean that he made it clear he was not going to accept any cheating at scrums? In which case can all refs do it please

Meanwhile Wales make two changes from the side that beat SA with the England based North and Hibbard replacing Liam Williams and Baldwin.

Based on 606 posts I am sure there will be some discomfort at Williams omission.

TJ wrote:You mean that he made it clear he was not going to accept any cheating at scrums?  In which case can all refs do it please

He accepted the most obvious cheating and picked up on obscure little things.

Here is a thought about Ford at ten. In the Glasgow / Bath game Glasgow clearly targetted him closing down his space and options. I thought he dealt with this OK and importantly didn't get ruffled / flustered although it clearly affected his abiulity to get the Bath backs going - he ended up not having a great game ( outplayed by russell) but I thought he came thru it well - so did this improve his chances having come thru quite a test or was he shown to not quite have what it takes?

Not a WUM - I thought opinions on this could be very divided.

Quality ten and will start for England unless injured.

I tend to agree. Under that amount of pressure a lesser player could have lost the plot, thrown interceptions and so on.

TJ wrote:Here is a thought about Ford at ten.  In the Glasgow / Bath game Glasgow clearly targetted him closing down his space and options.  I thought he dealt with this OK and importantly didn't get ruffled / flustered although it clearly affected his abiulity to get the Bath backs going - he ended up not having a great game ( outplayed by russell) but I thought he came thru it well - so did this improve his chances having come thru quite a test or was he shown to not quite have what it takes?

Not a WUM - I thought opinions on this could be very divided.

Ford was the youngest ever registered player in the Jeff. He's only 21 now and has 6 England caps.
The only reason he didn't start with England at 18 (like Wilkinson did) is that Farrell was the first cab off the rank.

I don't understand what more some England fans want of Ford at his age, I really don't. The fact that he can run a backline at one of England's most competitive club set ups at his age is fairly amazing. Any and all gametime is what he needs right now and if I was Lancaster, I wouldn't be looking to play anyone else at 10 for this entire tournament.

He's thrown 1 or 2; 1 earlier this season I think but he looks classy. Generally has time and really good positive kicking from Hand. Actually good at defense despite his size. His draw back is his place kicking but even that has improved a great deal this season.

LondonTiger wrote:Team I expect to see selected is as follows (with the man who has been replaced for the Aus test in brackets):

Marler, Hartley, Brookes (Wilson), Attwood, Kruis (Lawes), Haskell (Wood), Robshaw, Vunipola (Morgan)
Wigglesworth (Youngs), Ford, May, Twelvetrees, Burrell (Barritt), Watson, Brown

Wigglesworth for Youngs the only change not forced by injury.

The Telegraph and Daily Mail have both heard enough to think Joseph will start.

https://www.606v2.com/t57490-wales-v-england-6-february-2015-match-thread#2913184

There you go chaps, a (rubbish) match thread for this one

George carlin I agree.

Ford is much improved from last season IMO. He's worked on weaknesses in his game and is looking better for it. He's matured as have the backs and pack around him too.

TJ Bath beat Glasgow - that will give Ford confidence. Being part of a winning side generally helps IMO.

I have criticised Ford on certain parts of his game but he looks to have ironed them out mostly. Still having the Welsh giants run at him will be a stern test nonetheless.

Don't worry about Ford....its the big fella outside him that has me petrified....Calamity Bill

Seriously, he hasn't been terrible for England. A few shockers for Glous like!

No maybe not quite as bad for England but he hasn't been great. And if he carries his form in to the England game...it will be a problem.

I hope he shows the performances many others seem to have seen from him that I have obviously missed.

I've said all along he's been a 6 out of ten for England. Nothing majorly wrong and played a part in some good performances. To be honest if he starts with Joseph and Ford he doesn't have any excuses as they are both in form and should help bring out his best attributes.

So with Ford at 10 and Josepth at 13, that leaves at 12 either Twelvetrees, Burrell, or Slade.

Burrell had a shocker against Racing Metro and got concussed. Anyone know which caused which? Apart from that, hasn't his form over the season been pretty good?

Twelvetrees' form has been poor, but he offers a good kicking option. If he plays, I'd like to see him take any penalty kicks at goal over about 45m.

Slade? Is he ready to play at 12. He also seems a better penalty taker than ford - certainly for long range kicks.

Some pundits are suggesting England play a kicking game, which might suggest Twelvetrees or Slade.

It would be nice if Tuilagi were fit and we could question how those small Welsh centres could stop him But Joseph is on form and far more likely to release the ball to the wingers.

The Times seem to think that Burrell will get in at 12. I'd be happy enough with that and, overall, I don't think the injuries can be used as too much of an excuse. The pack still looks very strong and will arguably be better in the scrum with a bit more power from the 2nd row, though the lineout and breakdown work may suffer. Haskell for Wood would have been many peoples choice anyway (not mine but I can understand the clamour for Haskell). Ford, Joseph and Burrell may not have been playing if everyone was fit but it looks a pretty good unit and should give us a bit more creativity than having Farrell at 10.

Looks a nice balance that if true. Would still pick kitchener instead of Kruis purely as I would be slightly worried about the lineout.

I would rather play Slade than Twelvetrees.

But I would also far rather have Burrell.

Isnt Kruis supposed to be damn good in the lineout stakes? Surely he must have learnt something from Borthwick who was top class there.

I rather fear LondonTiger may be correct in his team predictions, and we may see Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wrigglesworth and Kruis.

Personally I would go for Burrell & Joseph, Young and Kitchener.  I do accept that Kruis is not a bad player but Kitchener's line out work seems better and maybe he has a bit more muscle (and a bit more experience).

This selection is an interesting test for Lancaster, if he does go a bit too negative and lose, then that would be a bit of an indictment against him.

Too be honest im not totally convinced with Lancaster at the moment.

I don't think theres been enough progression in style / tactics that justifies a 4 year stint

Some pretty harsh judges on Lancaster given we haven't even played the first game of the tournament yet.

The team that is being reported as being picked looks a good one and he hasn't gone for the most conservative options (again, assuming the reports are right). Hope we play sensible rugby - kick when we need to, use the driving maul when we can but also be prepared to give Joseph, May, Watson and Brown a chance to run when the chance arises.

If you can't be optimistic before the season starts, there may not be many other chances available.

Twelevetrees is a strange case. 

His best games for England were his first cap against Scotland, and the tour of Argentina before getting a Lions call. Both times he played his own, natural game. He focused on running support lines and getting his hands free for the offload. To me, it feels like the England management have put pressure on him to assist Faz as a second playmaker, which doesn't come particularly naturally to him. As a consequence, we see him forcing creativity, and putting boot to ball more than he should. 

He's a very decent rugby player when he plays his own game. No question he's had some stinkers for Gloucester and England, but largely he's done OK. I just wish he would stick to the way he played against Scotland back in 2013. 

I don't expect him to start on Friday, but it would be interesting to see how he would play alongside Ford rather than Farrell.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Too be honest im not totally convinced with Lancaster at the moment.

I don't think theres been enough progression in style / tactics that justifies a 4 year stint

I'm with you, he has steadied the ship for sure but England expects more and we really need to see it now.

TightHEAD wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Too be honest im not totally convinced with Lancaster at the moment.

I don't think theres been enough progression in style / tactics that justifies a 4 year stint

I'm with you, he has steadied the ship for sure but England expects more and we really need to see it now.

To be fair to the man, he's done more than "steady the ship". He's brought in a whole new ethos, we have the best depth we've had in the last decade.

I still think this world cup is too early for us and that it will be the next one to aim for but unfortunately we English have this defect that if we're not at the top instantly then we should get rid of the coach.

Some pretty harsh judges on Lancaster given we haven't even played the first game of the tournament yet.

Too be honest i've been feeling unsure about him for sometime now and his choice of coaches.

Eddie,
My problem with Twelvetrees is not his actual skills....its his ability to use those and make the correct decision at the right times. Im not sure he has what is required and that's not something as easily developed as learning how to pass better, kick or tackle better....

Nathan

He has been massively applauded for what he has done...and rightly so...but you cant rest on your laurels....he must take the team forward. I don't think he has the coaches to do that...don't rate Farrell or Catt as internationally effective...I think we have better in the AP...just look at Dave Walder at us to see the effect a good coach can have on a team.

But im taking the thread away from what it should be....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nathan

He has been massively applauded for what he has done...and rightly so...but you cant rest on your laurels....he must take the team forward. I don't think he has the coaches to do that...don't rate Farrell or Catt as internationally effective...I think we have better in the AP...just look at Dave Walder at us to see the effect a good coach can have on a team.

But im taking the thread away from what it should be....

But i dont think he is resting on his laurels. When was the last time he could pick a team with out it being effected by injuries

Not really, and it is a good point. We had a bad summer but we were playing away in NZ.

It is worth remembering we were good last 6N. We looked the most dangerous team running the ball (shocking I know) and only lost the championship due to some dumb stuff (and a great French try) in Paris, and an appalling pitch in Scotland.

We cannot stay still, and it may be that we should consider some changes in the coaching team, but it is not their fault that half a team is crocked.

But Nathan you say above we have strength in depth ....and most others rightly say we have a huge playing population.

Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

bluestonevedder wrote:Twelevetrees is a strange case. 

His best games for England were his first cap against Scotland, and the tour of Argentina before getting a Lions call. Both times he played his own, natural game. He focused on running support lines and getting his hands free for the offload. To me, it feels like the England management have put pressure on him to assist Faz as a second playmaker, which doesn't come particularly naturally to him. As a consequence, we see him forcing creativity, and putting boot to ball more than he should. 

He's a very decent rugby player when he plays his own game. No question he's had some stinkers for Gloucester and England, but largely he's done OK. I just wish he would stick to the way he played against Scotland back in 2013. 

I don't expect him to start on Friday, but it would be interesting to see how he would play alongside Ford rather than Farrell.

Not sure you can blame Farrell Jr for Twelvetrees playing badly. Sick of the codswallop of Farrell needing Twelvetrees to mollycoddle him - Farrell has been in winning teams for England without Twelvetrees.

You would think from some thoughts on here that Twelvetrees singlehandedly ran the backline for England in the previous 6 nations and was the outstanding back.

The simple reality is that Twelvetrees hasn't lived up to the hype. He's been built up as the next Will greenwood before he's proven his worth.

Couldn't hold down the 12 shirt at Leicester, is playing poorly for Gloucester, finding it difficult to hold onto the 12 shirt for England.

Wouldn't have him above Barritt,Eastmond,Burrell or even Slade at the moment. He's just fortunate the first two are injured.

As for Scotland 2013 - Farrell was the better player on the day but of course Twelvetrees supposedly helped Farrell, not the other way round.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

Off the top of my head, a list of players who have been injured when Lancaster had been intending to select them, would also  include Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Trinder, Wade, Yarde, Foden, Ford, Farrell, Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Mako, Tom Youngs, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Tom Wood, Ben Morgan, Slater and Billy Vunipola.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Nathan you say above we have strength in depth ....and most others rightly say we have a huge playing population.

Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

Theres been loads more than that!

Let's be honest though Lancaster has better players to pick from than the coaches after Clive.

The England U20s since 2008 has been one of the best in the world (being 2nd only to NZ). This obviously has helped Lancaster because he's had a lot more talent to pick from.

When you've got such talent coming through, England should be doing well!

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

Off the top of my head, a list of players who have been injured when Lancaster had been intending to select them, would also  include Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Trinder, Wade, Yarde, Foden, Ford, Farrell, Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Mako, Tom Youngs, Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Tom Wood, Ben Morgan, Slater and Billy Vunipola.

For every player on there we have near 2/3 replacements....

And they all haven't been injured together...only this current issue is particularly horrific.

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest though Lancaster has better players to pick from than the coaches after Clive.

The England U20s since 2008 has been one of the best in the world (being 2nd only to NZ). This obviously has helped Lancaster because he's had a lot more talent to pick from.

When you've got such talent coming through, England should be doing well!

Last two years they have been second to none.

nathan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Nathan you say above we have strength in depth ....and most others rightly say we have a huge playing population.

Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

Theres been loads more than that!

Yes through his tenure...but not all at once...unlike currently which I do sympathize with..
However we have huge strength in depth so shouldn't be an issue

GeordieFalcon wrote:

nathan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Nathan you say above we have strength in depth ....and most others rightly say we have a huge playing population.

Who's been injured?

Manu, Corbs and Cole....and Croft but then I wouldn't have him in anyway?

Aside from that and the odd form drop it hasn't been massive.

Theres been loads more than that!

Yes through his tenure...but not all at once...unlike currently which I do sympathize with..
However we have huge strength in depth so shouldn't be an issue

But its him who has built the huge strength in depth and that was partly due to injuries.

Helps strength in depth but harms how quickly partnerships are built.