England XV vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Injuries have struck England hard in the past couple of weeks. Foden, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Farrell, Morgan, Wood, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Slater and Cole all look set to miss out England's first match with Wales through injury. Ford our current first choice fly half suffered a mild concussion against Glasgow whilst his kicking was inconsistent too, something which has been affecting his game the last few matches.

Following these injuries this would be my XV and subs to take on Wales.

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Wilson
4. G.Kruis
5. D.Attwood
6. J.Haskell
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Vunipola

The front row would remain unchanged after going so well in the Autumn internationals. Kruis will come in for the injured Lawes, although I think England would have opted for Parling had he been fit. In the back row Haskell will come in for the injured Wood, however, I think on form Haskell would have been pushing very close for a starting spot anyway. Vunipola is offered another chance with Morgan out injured.

09. B.Youngs
10. D.Cipriani
11. J.May
12. B.Barritt
13. L.Burrell
14. A.Watson
15. M.Brown

At half back Youngs has been in good form for Leicester this season and has emerged as a leader too. Cipriani would get the nod over Ford on form, he has a huge chance with Farrell out injured and I think he might just take it. In the centres Barritt will be selected on merit in his more comfortable role of inside centre, I feel his defensive leadership will be integral against Wales. Burrell has also had a strong season and deserves his chance. Our back three although a little lightweight has bags of pace and enthusiasm and will be looking to kick on from the Autumn.

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Corbisiero
18. K.Brookes
19. G.Kitchener
20. C.Clark
21. D.Care
22. G.Ford
23. J.Joseph

What a bench! Youngs and Corbisiero are both Lions whilst Brookes impressed when he came on in the Autumn. Kitchener is in the form of his life at the moment too, so will relish this opportunity. It was a tough call between Easter and Clark, but I'd go with the latter who has been in top form for Northampton and it's time to see if he can sink or swim at international level. Care, Ford and Joseph provide a lethal attacking threat and will look to inject something different when they come on. Joseph is very unlucky to miss out on a starting spot, he has been electric all season and put in another impressive showing yesterday against Glasgow.

What would be your XV?

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yeah you have to have a full front row on the bench so it could be Jenkins or James and then either Jarvis or Andrews.  Unless he went with two L/Heads in Evans and James with James covering T/Head.

he won't because James hasn't played tighthead since before the extra substitute was added to the match day squad.

Shifty wrote:I'm actually pretty confident ahead of the Wales vs England game, the real worry I had was Ben Morgan and Tuilagi running at us and causing havoc, though even then Roberts has always dealt with Tuilagi fairly effectivly while Tuilagi has often struggled with Roberts.  With both of those players out injured I'm a lot happier Wales can handle England.  

I hope Sampson Lee is fit, though in this case it may be better Adam Jones has retired because Corbisiero seems to have some kind of tecnique that Adam struggles with.  Certainly when I have seen those two head to head Corbisiero is the only player I have ever seen Adam Jones struggle with.

I just think Wales are too big, too strong, too street wise and with a passionate home crowd roaring them on should beat England.  Wales just need to execute the basics correctly.  This Wales team has been together since the last world cup and should be peaking now.  England have chopped and changed and been all over the shop for several seasons, with many key areas of the team still up for debate on which player is better and what the balance should be in their team.  Their are very few positions in the England team you can say a player has nailed down his spot and been consistent when selected.

The news paper said Lee will be training this week and that he has recovered well..

Do you think Lancaster might include Easter from the start?

Haskell, Robshaw and Easter sounds like a big old fashioned england backrow. A bit like the old Deano ,Teague and Winterbottom days..!

Jerome Garces is the referee for this one. Is he good when it comes to the scrum or is he one of those refs who just penalises one side then the other?

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/26947.php#.VMh_e89ybVI

That's because of injuries though. In the areas where we had few injuries we had settled players. Unfortunately a lot of those players are now injured. Not much you can do about that.

maestegmafia wrote:Do you think Lancaster might include Easter from the start?

Haskell, Robshaw and Easter sounds like a big old fashioned england backrow. A bit like the old Deano ,Teague and Winterbottom days..!

I would be more worried with Easter at No8 than Billy V. Easter is your old fashioned ball carrying No8 that makes a hell amount of yards and for me is more of a like for like replacement for Morgan

So Barritt out for at least the first two matches.

Farrell who may have deputised out for entire 6Ns.

Burrell currently undergoing concussion protocols.

Eastmond doubtful for Wales.

36 looks like the last man standing.




On a separate note - and it may sound perverse - but I would like to see Cipriani on bench as Ford's deputy, but should ford get injured before Wales would like Myler to start.

LondonTiger wrote:So Barritt out for at least the first two matches.

Farrell who may have deputised out for entire 6Ns.

Burrell currently undergoing concussion protocols.

Eastmond doubtful for Wales.

36 looks like the last man standing.




On a separate note - and it may sound perverse - but I would like to see Cipriani on bench as Ford's deputy, but should ford get injured before Wales would like Myler to start.

As I am sure you have read, a good number of Welsh fans have also commented that this spate of injuries to Lancasters favoured backs gives England the opportunity to play the form players from the premiership.

Players like Cipriani and Joseph are a lot more exciting and much tougher to defend against than what would have been.

These lads will be keen to prove their worth in a still very undecided team ready for the RWC.

It's funny to think there is a player available with a lot more caps at centre than almost all of the fit candidates in the squad: Mathew Tait.

He hasn't played there much, if at all, for his club, though, so would be a non-starter on a few counts, not least because he was mainly an outside centre. I also notice the England teams he featured in he lost three Tests against Wales at the Millenium.

I think we should stop worrying about who does or doesn't start for England, if we can get our set piece right and Lee lasts the course then Wales have the experienced guys to see the match through and win.

Ford is the form 10 from the premiership, not Cipriani.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think we should stop worrying about who does or doesn't start for England, if we can get our set piece right and Lee lasts the course then Wales have the experienced guys to see the match through and win.

Based purely on what I have seen in Europe, even if Welsh front row perform as they can - could well come up short. Samson Lee gets rave reviews - but from what I have seen he is still perhaps two years development away from being at the level needed.

Course having said that I will probably have to eat my words in 10 days time.

How will our team compare to the side we had to put out against NZ in the first test last summer. Arguably stronger and with much more preparation time. The injuries are far from ideal but we have plenty of cover in every position and it shouldn't have a huge impact.

If we had one or two clearly world class players that were missing then it might have more of an impact. As it is, England has lots of players that are steady international class but very few, if any, that would get in a World 23.

Getting really worried now, I cannot see how England can win this game with the injuries that we have, but on the positive side we are all going to get to see how much depth we really have for this level just in time for the RWC.

LondonTiger wrote:Ford is the form 10 from the premiership, not Cipriani.

In the last month Cipriani has been the form 10.

He definitely hasn't

when will they announce the matchday 23? do they cut to 30-odd before that too at some point?

Its usually on Thursday's for Saturday games, so maybe next Wednesday

Injuries have already cut it to 30

maestegmafia wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ford is the form 10 from the premiership, not Cipriani.

In the last month Cipriani has been the form 10.

His form has dipped in the last month!

When i've seen him play Samson Lee looks to be a great young player with a lot of potential but he reminds me of Davy Wilson at the same age. It took Wilson several years to get the experience and mentality right for consistent top-level international scrummaging.

I'd just say it's a bit risky not having someone with more experience on the bench, even if they are considered too old! If we can field our top choice front rows that's:

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Wilson

16. T Youngs 17. A Corbisiero 18. D Cole - That is a tough prospect to be scrummaging against for the whole 80 minutes. Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Although with Garces reffing anything could be on the cards. He's also a touch laisez faire about the breakdown which won't suit us at all. If Lancs has his brain about him he'll put Kvesic on the bench.

Jeez and now Cueto has retired - will there be any English players left standing? I've even heard a rumour that Vickery's on his way out!

Ridiculous amount of injuries affecting England.

Not just frustrating for the games coming up, but for the fact that Lancaster will struggle to play his best XV, or anywhere approaching that, on a consistent basis in the lead-up to the World Cup.

I must say I do not yet see all the injuries radically changing the side with perhaps the exception of inside centre.  

Obviously having everyone fit might be an advantage, but the front row looks unaffacted, in the second row Attwood and Kitchener should be competitive (though Lancaster may start with Kruis).  In the backrow Vunipola replaces Morgan and maybe Haskell for Wood depending on fitness.  But of this last change, many would see it making England stronger.  At Flyhalf Ford would most likely to have started rather than Farrell.  The back three look unaffected and in Joseph we seem to have the form outside center in the Premiership.

Only at inside center is there real concern, but if (and it is a big if) Burgress and Slade play well for the Saxons maybe they come into contention.

I still think Wales are slight favourites, with Lawes, Launchbury, Morgan and Tuilagi available I think it would have been 50/50.

LondonTiger wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think we should stop worrying about who does or doesn't start for England, if we can get our set piece right and Lee lasts the course then Wales have the experienced guys to see the match through and win.

Based purely on what I have seen in Europe, even if Welsh front row perform as they can - could well come up short. Samson Lee gets rave reviews - but from what I have seen he is still perhaps two years development away from being at the level needed.

Course having said that I will probably have to eat my words in 10 days time.

LT,

That's the thing though everyone goes on about form in Europe but lets be honest the Regions have been crap in Europe for years now and we have still managed success.

We have proven t/heads in Jenkins and James with young Evans again getting rave reviews and we have Hibbard at hooker. I agree that after that and if Lee struggles then that's where we will come up short.

Chjw131 wrote:When i've seen him play Samson Lee looks to be a great young player with a lot of potential but he reminds me of Davy Wilson at the same age. It took Wilson several years to get the experience and mentality right for consistent top-level international scrummaging.

I'd just say it's a bit risky not having someone with more experience on the bench, even if they are considered too old! If we can field our top choice front rows that's:

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Wilson

16. T Youngs 17. A Corbisiero 18. D Cole - That is a tough prospect to be scrummaging against for the whole 80 minutes. Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Although with Garces reffing anything could be on the cards. He's also a touch laisez faire about the breakdown which won't suit us at all. If Lancs has his brain about him he'll put Kvesic on the bench.

chjw,

Your front row on the bench will definately have the edge at hooker and T/Head.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think we should stop worrying about who does or doesn't start for England, if we can get our set piece right and Lee lasts the course then Wales have the experienced guys to see the match through and win.

Based purely on what I have seen in Europe, even if Welsh front row perform as they can - could well come up short. Samson Lee gets rave reviews - but from what I have seen he is still perhaps two years development away from being at the level needed.

Course having said that I will probably have to eat my words in 10 days time.

LT,

That's the thing though everyone goes on about form in Europe but lets be honest the Regions have been crap in Europe for years now and we have still managed success.

We have proven t/heads in Jenkins and James with young Evans again getting rave reviews and we have Hibbard at hooker.  I agree that after that and if Lee struggles then that's where we will come up short.

In that Wales pack though, do you think he will perform at a higher level?

Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Is Kruis over 120kg? Wow....wouldn't have put him at that.

Bradley Davies would be our lightest at a mere 115kgs with Charteris topping the scales at 129kgs.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Is Kruis over 120kg? Wow....wouldn't have put him at that.

Nor Kitchener- both more slim than bulky. 

Attwood would be our only lock approaching that weight in my eyes, and even he's slimmed down a lot.

Yeah ive heard Kitchener is well over 19st before...in a cockerill interview.

Then you have that man Garvey well over 20st.

I'm always sceptical about weights, if Kruis is 120kg I would be very surprised. Reckon he is 110kg tops.

Charteris - 129kg yet looks like he could snap like a twig!

Confirmed Barritt, Eastmond, Wood and Parling all out of first match

(but they are staying with the main squad)

Good news for wales, though still a bit sceptical as you have good replacement players.

Haskell in for Wood
2nd row will be OK, not as good all round as Lawes/Launchbury but OK and carrying more ballast.
Inside center is, as always, anyones guess but with fewer options. The likely choices being 36 or Burrell with a very outside chance of Slade. Mind you, if a certain player has a very good evening against the Wolfhounds there may be a fourth option.

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Is Kruis over 120kg? Wow....wouldn't have put him at that.

Nor Kitchener- both more slim than bulky. 

Attwood would be our only lock approaching that weight in my eyes, and even he's slimmed down a lot.

He's 6ft 6 and is 121KG

This is bad... as when Wales repeats the 2012 thumping, all we're going to hear about is the English injury list... Shall we get the all the under-rated Grand Slam posts out early this year...

I would much rather see Wales put 30 points on a full strength English side, but as the old adage goes.. "You can only play the team infront of you.."... I assume you will be able to put out a team wont you

I always used to wonder about the weights, but from personal experience (being 6ft and a not overweight (honest) 100kg+) these numbers seem more possible

No9 wrote:This is bad... as when Wales repeats the 2012 thumping, all we're going to hear about is the English injury list... Shall we get the all the under-rated Grand Slam posts out early this year...

I would much rather see Wales put 30 points on a full strength English side, but as the old adage goes.. "You can only play the team infront of you.."... I assume you will be able to put out a team wont you

Beginning to wonder if we will!

England Wales. Out of 125 games in 123 years so far Wales have scored 30 points in 4 of them (against 12 by England)

Good luck with that prediction no.9

No9 wrote:This is bad... as when Wales repeats the 2012 thumping, all we're going to hear about is the English injury list... Shall we get the all the under-rated Grand Slam posts out early this year...

I would much rather see Wales put 30 points on a full strength English side, but as the old adage goes.. "You can only play the team infront of you.."... I assume you will be able to put out a team wont you

I think you are getting ahead of yourself with discussion about what others will say when Wales win a grand slam. Wales are pretty much guaranteed to beat Italy. That's it. Scotland will I think be vastly improved and so should France as long as selection is sensible. Both England and Ireland are well capable of beating (or losing to) Wales.

nathan wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Particularly given you've got the likes of Attwood, Kitchener and Kruis forming the second row combination who are all north of 120kgs.

Is Kruis over 120kg? Wow....wouldn't have put him at that.

Nor Kitchener- both more slim than bulky. 

Attwood would be our only lock approaching that weight in my eyes, and even he's slimmed down a lot.

He's 6ft 6 and is 121KG

Nathan, I'm well aware that's what is reported on the Tigers website and on Wiki. I think what we are getting at is that they don't always look their reported weights.

Griff wrote:Charteris - 129kg yet looks like he could snap like a twig!

A mighty big twig!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31016895

This article reckons Cole is also missing "the early part of the tournament" so looks like the Saxons game could be test for Brookes and Thomas to see who gets the bench spot

Either Brookes or Thomas will be good enough. No worries about that.

Exiledinborders wrote:

No9 wrote:This is bad... as when Wales repeats the 2012 thumping, all we're going to hear about is the English injury list... Shall we get the all the under-rated Grand Slam posts out early this year...

I would much rather see Wales put 30 points on a full strength English side, but as the old adage goes.. "You can only play the team infront of you.."... I assume you will be able to put out a team wont you

I think you are getting ahead of yourself with discussion about what others will say when Wales win a grand slam. Wales are pretty much guaranteed to beat Italy. That's it.  Scotland will I think be vastly improved and so should France as long as selection is sensible. Both England and Ireland are well capable of beating (or losing to) Wales.

Suggest you read my post again.. I never said when Wales win a grand slam, I inferred there would be many post saying the Grand Slam would be worthless, on an assumption that it is won, but never stating by whom. Could be Ireland, Scotland, France or even Italy. I'd prefer it be Wales though...but I never said what you're picking me up on..

bedfordwelsh wrote:Bradley Davies would be our lightest at a mere 115kgs with Charteris topping the scales at 129kgs.

Bradley Davies plays in that mold of a classic 4 though and i've been impressed with his performances for Wasps, very physical at times. Charteris is a bit like Toner, heavy on the scales mainly due to a freakish height!

I'm only quoting their weights as an indication incidentally. We all know they can be way off at times. Kitchener was quoted as being near 20st by Brad Thorn recently though. Kruis continues to put weight on at Sarries.

I am sure we heard the thing about Cole a while back but it seems the team have indicated otherwise. I'd actually not have an issue at all with Brookes on the bench in the form he's in at the moment. And he's an excellent carrier.

lostinwales wrote:England Wales. Out of 125 games in 123 years so far Wales have scored 30 points in 4 of them (against 12 by England)

Good luck with that prediction no.9

So... the past is the past and has no bearing until on the future. The future is yet to be seen...

We put 30 points on a team coming to play for the Slam. There's nothing to say we cant do the same against a second string side at the beginning of the tournament. But whether its a 1 point or 101 point winning margin I wont care, as long as its a Win..

to be honest...: