England XV vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Injuries have struck England hard in the past couple of weeks. Foden, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Farrell, Morgan, Wood, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Slater and Cole all look set to miss out England's first match with Wales through injury. Ford our current first choice fly half suffered a mild concussion against Glasgow whilst his kicking was inconsistent too, something which has been affecting his game the last few matches.

Following these injuries this would be my XV and subs to take on Wales.

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Wilson
4. G.Kruis
5. D.Attwood
6. J.Haskell
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Vunipola

The front row would remain unchanged after going so well in the Autumn internationals. Kruis will come in for the injured Lawes, although I think England would have opted for Parling had he been fit. In the back row Haskell will come in for the injured Wood, however, I think on form Haskell would have been pushing very close for a starting spot anyway. Vunipola is offered another chance with Morgan out injured.

09. B.Youngs
10. D.Cipriani
11. J.May
12. B.Barritt
13. L.Burrell
14. A.Watson
15. M.Brown

At half back Youngs has been in good form for Leicester this season and has emerged as a leader too. Cipriani would get the nod over Ford on form, he has a huge chance with Farrell out injured and I think he might just take it. In the centres Barritt will be selected on merit in his more comfortable role of inside centre, I feel his defensive leadership will be integral against Wales. Burrell has also had a strong season and deserves his chance. Our back three although a little lightweight has bags of pace and enthusiasm and will be looking to kick on from the Autumn.

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Corbisiero
18. K.Brookes
19. G.Kitchener
20. C.Clark
21. D.Care
22. G.Ford
23. J.Joseph

What a bench! Youngs and Corbisiero are both Lions whilst Brookes impressed when he came on in the Autumn. Kitchener is in the form of his life at the moment too, so will relish this opportunity. It was a tough call between Easter and Clark, but I'd go with the latter who has been in top form for Northampton and it's time to see if he can sink or swim at international level. Care, Ford and Joseph provide a lethal attacking threat and will look to inject something different when they come on. Joseph is very unlucky to miss out on a starting spot, he has been electric all season and put in another impressive showing yesterday against Glasgow.

What would be your XV?

The Telegraph has Kruis, Burrell + Joseph starting.

Easter at 19 on the bench, as a certain poster on this forum suggested back when he was selected.... along with CIPRIANI ahead of Myler. Can't call that team a conservative one.

[quote="lostinwales"]

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest though Lancaster has better players to pick from than the coaches after Clive.

The England U20s since 2008 has been one of the best in the world (being 2nd only to NZ). This obviously has helped Lancaster because he's had a lot more talent to pick from.

When you've got such talent coming through, England should be doing well!

Last two years they have been second to none.[/quotes ]

Quite. And who deserves the credit for that? Lancaster had a huge hand in creating the RFU age grade system in its current form, and has been instrumental in bringing a lot of those kids through.

It's also often forgotten that he told the RFU when he took the job that the senior team would only hit its peak in time for the 2019 RWC. The ambition is to rival the All Blacks' consistency and we are only half way through the process of building a player pipeline to do that.

It would be nice if it could happen faster, but rather 8 years to create something enduring than another 2003 (were that even possible - the game has moved on) followed by 2007 & 2011.

Chjw131 good team and bench if true.

Easter does at least add some experience and in a worse case scenario could even slot into the 2nd row!

Having Easter and Care coming on together would be smart as of course they are club team mates.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest though Lancaster has better players to pick from than the coaches after Clive.

The England U20s since 2008 has been one of the best in the world (being 2nd only to NZ). This obviously has helped Lancaster because he's had a lot more talent to pick from.

When you've got such talent coming through, England should be doing well!

Last two years they have been second to none.[/quotes ]

Quite. And who deserves the credit for that? Lancaster had a huge hand in creating the RFU age grade system in its current form, and has been instrumental in bringing a lot of those kids through.

It's also often forgotten that he told the RFU when he took the job that the senior team would only hit its peak in time for the 2019 RWC. The ambition is to rival the All Blacks' consistency and we are only half way through the process of building a player pipeline to do that.

It would be nice if it could happen faster, but rather 8 years to create something enduring than another 2003 (were that even possible - the game has moved on)  followed by 2007 & 2011.

Agree completely.

England squad to face Wales:

Forwards: Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers), Nick Easter (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Henry Thomas (Bath Rugby) Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Mike Brown (Harlequins), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


No Danny Care? Is he injured?

propdavid_london wrote:
No Danny Care?   Is he injured?

No. He was dropped from the squad halfway through the AIs, and in the coaches view his form has not been consistent enough since to return (some excellent games for Quins, but also some very poor supposedly). Add in that they want as many kicking options as possible and he is left out.

Fair enough I suppose - His box kicking has been heavily criticised.
I would imagine Youngs will start then with Wiggy as backup - Although I do like bench options to come on and mix things up a bit and I dont see Wigglesworth as that kind of player.

That is a very strong squad for England, so much for all their injuries, you lot really do have some serious strength in depth, I am a lot more worried now after looking at that. Shame there is not a nervous smiley I could put in.

LordDowlais wrote:That is a very strong squad for England, so much for all their injuries, you lot really do have some serious strength in depth, I am a lot more worried now after looking at that. Shame there is not a nervous smiley I could put in.

The issue for England - at least since Lancaster took over - has never been a shortage of decent players, it's been getting good combinations on the pitch for a long enough run of games. That's still the case and is going to be England's main vulnerability here.

The midfield is likely to be either Youngs - Ford - Burrell - Joseph or Youngs - Ford - Twelvetrees - Burrell. Neither of those has played together before, and at 12 and 13 there's a choice between a combination that's never been tried or a combination that has played well in the past but whose combined form is questionable. Either way, the 10-12 axis is likely to be where Wales will focus. On the other hand, the full backline has more total experience and more experience playing together than, say, last year's scratch on in Paris.

The pack was always going to be solid; the question is whether it's fragile in any respect. The key vulnerabilities are tighthead and lock. It's great to have Cole back - and his presence will add a lot to the breakdown - but there have got to be questions over how long he will last and I have not seen enough to know whether his scrummaging technique has adapted properly to the new engagement. I would expect a fully operational Dan Cole to give England an edge in the scrum, especially with a French ref, and give the back row more choices about where to get stuck in (given their work rate, that could be an important edge). A not fully fit Cole or one of the junior tightheads, not so much.

At lock, it looks like we'll have a combination that's fairly inexperienced but who individually have gone pretty well, but lacking a bit in the air compared to Lawes and Launchbury. Against that, the back row options of Wood, Croft, Easter and Robshaw (whose lineout work is under-rated - he takes a lot of "must win" ball for Quins) give a lot of flexibility and an attacking option on Welsh lineouts. I am not worried about Easter covering lock - he hates playing there, but has performed well whenever he's been asked to do so.

The other big area for Wales to attack will be discipline - an England team with some unfamiliar pairings might not have the communication they should have and it may be possible to provoke penalties for Halfpenny to punish.

England match-day 23 to face Wales
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 33 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 7 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 11 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 42 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 26 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 61 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 45 caps)
4. David Attwood (Bath Rugby, 16 caps)
5. George Kruis (Saracens, 4 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 53 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 32 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 12 caps)

Replacements

16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 15 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 6 caps)
19. Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers, 38 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 47 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 16 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 9 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 16 caps)

If we have a back 3 injury we are up Poopie creek

Well its a good side....

However
If we lose Kruis or Attwood...we end up with Croft or Easter at lock???!!!!!

BamBam wrote:If we have a back 3 injury we are up Poopie creek

Joseph can play wing, Watson can play full back. Twelvetrees comes in.

I think that's preferable to bringing in Cipriani at full back. What do people think?

I would also argue that Twelvetrees is a waste on the bench.

Nowell should be in there...covering wing and FB, May can cover 13 and Joseph both centre postions.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would also argue that Twelvetrees is a waste on the bench.

Nowell should be in there...covering wing and FB, May can cover 13 and Joseph both centre postions.

You would end up with a very lightweight center combo, which is something we cant do against Wales. There is always Croft though

Haha, I suggested Croft at 12 on the other thread (partially joking)

He can tackle, and would back him to run past Roberts!

Croft could well be in the second row which is even more alarming.

Put Tom Youngs at Centre...he used to be one.

I say again I question Lancaster.

That bench is a MASSIVE gamble....it may well come off but it could just as easily blow up in his face.

That's one thing we've lost out on with Farrell missing, he could at least be some sort of 12 cover off the bench even if its not ideal

But agreed, Joseph at wing and Watson to FB is preferable to a Ford-Cips 10-12 combo

So in the second half we could end up with

10 Cipriani
12 Tom Youngs
13 Tom Croft

Oh Lancaster......

Well if we have that level of injury we'd need a 10 man bench for it to be adequate!

The backs on the bench do provide a range of different options. I'd imagine 36 is there because of Burrell's fitness, but he also provides an additional kicking game should Ford become too heavily targeted. Cipriani, Joseph and Watson can all play FB if required, but Watson has to head that list.

The only issue I have with the bench is Easter and Croft. Kitchener deserved a spot and at least provides a viable lineout option. Attwood has vastly improved his lineout ability, but if he were to be injured Easter is a poor substitute in the lineout, which would more than likely force Croft to come on.

An injury to Attwood would mean Easter coming on at Lock and probably Haskell coming off for Croft at 6 to cover the lineout.

That's a frightening thought.

And people don't have their doubts about Lancaster....yeah whatever.

I thought Lancaster was supposed to be too conservative! You can't point to that with the team and bench. It's blooming risky for the lock aspect but barring that the bench offers a some very different options from those starting.

The starting team is excellent 7.5

The bench has always been his blind spot.

Well like i said I'm worried about an early injury to a lock, that's the worry. Elsewhere we have very different and frankly attacking options off the bench. I'd have been very happy with exactly the same but swapping Kitchener for Easter.

I believe Easter does take a lot of ball in the lineout.

Not sure what else Lancaster could of done! Caught in a viscous circle!

Pick Kitchener and people say that we haven't got a true 8 to replace Vunipola who I think is going to be asked to get through a hell of a lot of work! Croft and Haskell have both filed in at 8 before but I don't think they fit the game plan as 8's even in an emergency!

Yes we are short if second row options but what country wouldn't be with there 3 first choice locks out! Whilst picking people out of position is a risk, in Tom Croft and Nick Easter we've got 2 highly experienced international standard players so that risk for me is lowered.

Tiger/Chief wrote:Not sure what else Lancaster could of done! Caught in a viscous circle!

Pick Kitchener and people say that we haven't got a true 8 to replace Vunipola who I think is going to be asked to get through a hell of a lot of work! Croft and Haskell have both filed in at 8 before but I don't think they fit the game plan as 8's even in an emergency!

Yes we are short if second row options but what country wouldn't be with there 3 first choice locks out! Whilst picking people out of position is a risk, in Tom Croft and Nick Easter we've got 2 highly experienced international standard players so that risk for me is lowered.

I dont mind this combo. The alternative would be to rely on Kruis filling in at 6 if needed and then having all 3 locks in the squad

You can't cover all possible outcomes through your bench. Personally, I thought the Ben Morgan/Billy V pairing could be weak because it just gave us more of the same. Since neither Wood nor Robshaw were ever due to be swapped out, they would end up running themselves into the ground. It didn't give us much tactical flexibility or leadership sharpness at the back end of matches, and we suffered for it on a couple of occasions.

Hask can cover 8 ok, he was one of our best players at the RWC in that posit.

36 should be in the Saxons, May can cover 13 and Wade should be on the bench instead of 36.

If this were not the opening match & vs Wales I would have Simpson instead of wigglesworth, hell, if it were vs France or Italy I'd have him starting. If Youngs starts to shuffle-step pass I shall vent thy spleen greatly.

James Haskell has filled in the second row for England on a couple of occasions in matches and at 114kgs isn't giving away much weight to 'proper' second rows. Croft coming on at 6 won't harm your line out options. If you asked me would I rather have Lawes filling in at 6/Wood filling in at 8, or Haskell/Easter filling in in the second row, I would probably go with the latter option.

I have just checked the odds for the match and Wales are now 1.53 (£1.53 back on a £1 bet) and England 2.75 (£2.75 back on a £1 bet) - so Wales are massive favourites. The bookies aren't always right, but it is looking pretty ominous for England.

Always going to be like that nlpnlp given the last match at Wales and current injuries. I believe it will be closer than last time but I do expect England to lose. You never know though some of the new combos in the backs may spark but it's a bif if against the tried and tested Welsh.

I don't think many will complain about the adventurousness and flair available in the starting backline. As usual, the only real compromise is with the bench selection - no cover for the wings, although Cipriani used to play full back at Wasps, so could slot in there. OK, yet another new centre pairing, but given the injuries there we had little choice.

Forwards are more of an issue - only 2 that we know are Lancaster's first choices (Hartley and Robshaw), although you can make an argument for both props. Doubt Cole would have been starting yet if Wilson was fit, but he's a not too bad replacement.

Obviously missing Lawes and Launchbury is a big change for the 2nd row. Attwood showed reasonably in the AIs and does offer a bit more of a carrying option but with some decrease in work rate compared to L and L. Kruis obviously has something to prove...

Billy V is obviously pretty much a like for like replacement for Morgan, and will be expected to shoulder the burden as the main power carrier. Good opportunity for him as his star has waned somewhat over the last year, while Morgan was a standout in the AIs.

Haskell for Wood concerns me a bit, especially given the 2nd row we have. Again, something of an upgrade in power but a reduction in work rate and in line out ability. I know some see this as an improvement, given the relative similarities between Wood and Robshaw (i.e. more differentiated roles for the 6 and 7 rather than two 6.5s). Again though, a chance for a player reputedly in good form at club level to try and regain a spot in the team or at least the wider squad. I certainly like the idea of Haskell being in the RWC squad as he has international experience across all three of the back row positions.

I like having Mako on the bench, and Tom Youngs also brings good ball-carrying although with the concern about his set piece ability. Brookes has looked competent so far in his brief England career.

Bigger concerns are Easter and Croft as cover for the back 5 of the scrum. OK, both are very experienced internationals and can cover the 2nd row as late replacements, but I would not want either having to play 60 minutes as a replacement for Attwood or Kruis. I hope this is a one-off, with Lawes being back to fitness later in the series and so allowing Kruis to drop to the bench. Hopefully Wood can come back as well and either take the back row bench spot or replace Haskell in the XV, with Haskell dropping to the bench.

Overall, under the circumstances of the current injuries, I think the XV is a good selection but with concerns about the bench cover for 2nd row and wings.

HongKongCherry wrote: Easter is a poor substitute in the lineout, which would more than likely force Croft to come on.

Have you ever watched Easter play? I can't find a working source of stats but he's a very reliable lineout operator for Quins and I can't remember him ever being a liability for England. Croft is a better lineout stealer, but Easter's very good at securing throws on own ball.

Easter has been the standout forward in the AP and that includes foreigners. It's been an absolute disgrace that SL hasn't picked him before.

Sounds as if Wales have been on a mammoth fitness drive so England will need their bench…which could be a problem for them, to put it mildly.

In the Auturm internations we started off with Kruis and Morgan on the bench to cover the back five of the scrum.

Why not stick to having one lock and one backrow forward on the bench.  Worst case scenario, Kruis can also play in the backrow.

I wonder why we now need two back row replacements?  Rather than stick with a replacement number 8 and lock?

I think the concept of the bench is one that Stewie still struggles with tbh. We should be home & dry by the last 10 anyway.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:.............We should be home & dry by the last 10 anyway.

But that is when Cippy comes on and the danger begins...........

doctor_grey wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:.............We should be home & dry by the last 10 anyway.

But that is when Cippy comes on and the danger begins...........

Cippy and George at fly half….let's hope they don't Bungle it. (sorry)

Gwlad wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:.............We should be home & dry by the last 10 anyway.

But that is when Cippy comes on and the danger begins...........

Cippy and George at fly half….let's hope they don't Bungle it. (sorry)

Massively inexperienced back line.

Ford is the weak link. Can't tackle. Kicking is average (both out of the hand and from the tee). No pace going forwards.

Stands a bit flatter than Farrell, and that's about it. Expecting Roberts to run a very simple line straight at Ford every single time... Robshaw has his work cut out cutting the channel off.

Can't even hope for a mud bath with the roof being shut.

Sigh, and am in Cardiff for a stag party this weekend as well. Joyful.

coxy001 not sure if you are joking.

Ford is a much improved player this season (last season I would agree but not now), his tackling is much better than it used to be - Roberts will of course test him but Ford is far better equipped to challenge it now.

Ford should be fine....hopefully anyway.....

And the roof is open....

beshocked wrote:coxy001 not sure if you are joking.

Ford is a much improved player this season (last season I would agree but not now), his tackling is much better than it used to be - Roberts will of course test him but Ford is far better equipped to challenge it now.

Ford should be fine....hopefully anyway.....

Don't overly rate him, never have and doubtful I ever will. Would've liked to have seen Cipriani given the chance to set loose an inexperienced but pretty exciting back line. And Cipriani isn't exactly Wilko' in defence either. Sigh.

coxy001 not sure if you are joking.

And I know, what a crazy cat I am for agreeing to go in to Cardiff when England are playing there. Here's hoping inexperience is shoved to one side and we absolutely batter them (I'd take a 1 point win at the same time to be fair), bars etc will be much quieter

Ford is definitely a better defender than Cips!

Its funny how we seem to get caught up on the size of the fly half

Ford is the same height and 2kg heavier than Aaron Cruden, has anyone ever seen Roberts plowing through Cruden or Cruden being an obvious weak link defensively?

Nope, because the rest of the team around him is built to help him there, Nonu at 12, the outstanding pack etc all make sure that Cruden isn't exposed defensively.

Burrell is fully capable of performing a similar role, and our back row also has the work rate to cover

That's the thing though BamBam, there's the extra work rate involved to cover such a scenario. Worse case scenario is our set piece (which is the best in the NH) goes to pot. Best case scenario we get on the front foot and such a worry is eased.

Thankfully the Welsh only have 3 gameplans:

1) Direct
2) Infringe at the scrum yet win the penalty, HP doesn't miss
3) Direct.

Who's the ref by the way?

I reckon our pack has the work rate too though, Haskell and Robshaw are probably two of the best around in that regard, Kruis is in the extra flanker mold, the front rowers are also excellent around the park.

Its probably only Billy V and Attwood who will stick to the tight exchanges

Ref is Jérôme Garcès with Roman Poite as one of his assistants