England XV vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

Injuries have struck England hard in the past couple of weeks. Foden, Rokoduguni, Tuilagi, Eastmond, Farrell, Morgan, Wood, Parling, Launchberry, Lawes, Slater and Cole all look set to miss out England's first match with Wales through injury. Ford our current first choice fly half suffered a mild concussion against Glasgow whilst his kicking was inconsistent too, something which has been affecting his game the last few matches.

Following these injuries this would be my XV and subs to take on Wales.

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Wilson
4. G.Kruis
5. D.Attwood
6. J.Haskell
7. C.Robshaw
8. B.Vunipola

The front row would remain unchanged after going so well in the Autumn internationals. Kruis will come in for the injured Lawes, although I think England would have opted for Parling had he been fit. In the back row Haskell will come in for the injured Wood, however, I think on form Haskell would have been pushing very close for a starting spot anyway. Vunipola is offered another chance with Morgan out injured.

09. B.Youngs
10. D.Cipriani
11. J.May
12. B.Barritt
13. L.Burrell
14. A.Watson
15. M.Brown

At half back Youngs has been in good form for Leicester this season and has emerged as a leader too. Cipriani would get the nod over Ford on form, he has a huge chance with Farrell out injured and I think he might just take it. In the centres Barritt will be selected on merit in his more comfortable role of inside centre, I feel his defensive leadership will be integral against Wales. Burrell has also had a strong season and deserves his chance. Our back three although a little lightweight has bags of pace and enthusiasm and will be looking to kick on from the Autumn.

16. T.Youngs
17. A.Corbisiero
18. K.Brookes
19. G.Kitchener
20. C.Clark
21. D.Care
22. G.Ford
23. J.Joseph

What a bench! Youngs and Corbisiero are both Lions whilst Brookes impressed when he came on in the Autumn. Kitchener is in the form of his life at the moment too, so will relish this opportunity. It was a tough call between Easter and Clark, but I'd go with the latter who has been in top form for Northampton and it's time to see if he can sink or swim at international level. Care, Ford and Joseph provide a lethal attacking threat and will look to inject something different when they come on. Joseph is very unlucky to miss out on a starting spot, he has been electric all season and put in another impressive showing yesterday against Glasgow.

What would be your XV?

hmm 2nd top try scorer at Exeter behind a fat kiwi merc?

I am kidding I rate Nowell very highly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2934731/Dan-Cole-ready-step-David-Wilson-ruled-England-s-Six-Nations-opener.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

So how much do people believe the daily mail?

They're usually informed on rugby news, despite everything.

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

Im worried about throwing Dan straight back in so quick. Off the bench in a couple of games maybe...but even that concerns me.

Id much rather not even risk him and give Brookes / Sinkler / Henry Thomas the chance...show a bit of confidence in them. They might not be Dan Cole but they're all good players...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im worried about throwing Dan straight back in so quick. Off the bench in a couple of games maybe...but even that concerns me.

Id much rather not even risk him and give Brookes / Sinkler / Henry Thomas the chance...show a bit of confidence in them. They might not be Dan Cole but they're all good players...

Remember it's a foot injury thats kept him out, not his neck

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

Yeah I suppose...but im still a little concerned.

We're supposed to have strength in depth...the guys are young and Brookes and Thomas only have brief experience at this level but I would just be wary of dropping Cole straight back in.

Ease Cole back in to this level gently.

And we need to see just what the young lads can cope with...and Wales in a 6n opener at MS don't come much bigger.

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

yappysnap wrote:

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

For me it's got to be youngs/care in the match day squad

yappysnap wrote:

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

Yappy,

Isnt that Englands style

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

Yappy,

Isnt that Englands style

Geordie, I actually think that is a very good question. It has been one of the styles preferred by Lancaster with Farrell at 10. That, and with attempts to play an offloading game. But would that be the style with George Ford at 10? Or, better put, should England play that style with Georgie out there? And if Lancaster wants to change, is there time before the game to put something in place?

Eggchasers podcast suggested one reason to include Burgess in the full squad for a couple of days is to send him down towards to George Ford in training to simulate Jamie Roberts doing the same next weekend.

nathan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

For me it's got to be youngs/care in the match day squad

Agrees, I'd probably start Youngs for his extra kicking game and as Care does well off the bench

Brian Moore says it's hard to see England winning:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11383198/Six-Nations-2015-Lengthy-injury-list-must-force-England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-to-lower-his-ambitions.html

Maybe - a lot will depend upon how the 2nd rankers stand up.

I know there isnt anything like as much to talk about with the Welsh team, given how stable they are, but everything we hear is about the English selection and how they will cope with what Wales can do.

Personally I just think there is a big step between what Wales can do and what they will. 'On their day'[TM] they are a good side, but often they are just muscular and stale, and we are used to that. They tend to start the 6N badly too.

With all the talk of 2013 it is worth remembering the first time we played this fixture first up on a Friday night in 2011. England won.

Personally I'd just like to see a bit more coverage on what Wales will turn up, rather than how will England cope with the Welsh juggernaut with all their injury problems/ OMG Burgess still with England squad stories

yappysnap wrote:

OMc wrote:

nathan wrote:

Lancaster is believed to be giving serious consideration to picking Saracens’ in-form scrum half Richard Wigglesworth ahead of Ben Youngs and Danny Care.

Has he really been in better form than those two? i haven't seen much of him

He hasn't been worse, although he's not been significantly better.

He's an average club player who performs well in a very simple, defensive and conservative environment. Not who is want starting for the national side, especially with Ford out side him. I fear Ford wouldn't see the ball as Wigglesworth would kick everything.

You call him an average club player - I think you are underrating him a bit - he's won two AP titles with Sale and Saracens respectively - he's put in two strong performances vs Clermont and Munster at Allianz Park this season which really helped Saracens win - a quick tap in each game leading to a try.As no one expects him to quick tap it's been very effective.

He's not got the pace of a Youngs or a Care but he's the best box kicker in England IMO.

If you want a more controlling 9 the two best are Dickson and Wigglesworth, if you want a bit more dynamism it's clearly Care and Youngs.

Personally I think Wigglesworth would be 3rd or 4th choice if everyone is in form but he's not as bad as made out.

As it stands I would start Youngs with Care on the bench.

Also you talk about a defensive and conservative environment - Saracens still crush Quins in the try count......perhaps you should look closer to home.....

I want to see Saracens being less conservative but there are clubs who need a lot more work......

Beshocked mate, are we back to you talking up every single Sarries player as England starters?

Ashton, Goode, Wigglesworth, who is next, Jackson Wray?

Bambam if you read carefully you'll see that I have said that none of those players should start now.

Brown should start at XV, maybe Watson or Goode as 2nd and 3rd choice.
Ashton as back up to May or Watson (so again not a starter), wouldn't be aggrieved to see Wade or Nowell instead but feel Ashton deserves a chance with a better attacking backline.
Wigglesworth - clearly said he is probably 3rd or 4th choice
Jackson Wray - not close at all.

The only players with a case are

Billy - obvious
Kruis - because of the injuries to 2nd row - tough call between him and Kitchener
Mako - not sure whether he should start or not - has improved his scrummaging and superior ball carrying abilities to any other prop IMO, plus underrated workrate.

I wouldn't be at all aggrieved if the only Saracens player is Billy in the starting XV.

I don't think anything I have said is unreasonable - Mako and Ashton for example are playing well.

I also said Farrell shouldn't have been involved at all in the summer or AIs because he's quite clearly suffering mentally and physically.

Here is hoping that now Farrell is properly broken he can be properly fixed.

It may be that a year down the line we are only arguing about Slade vs Ford at 10, but having a fit and on form Farrell there or thereabouts can only be a good thing

BamBam wrote:Beshocked mate, are we back to you talking up every single Sarries player as England starters?

Ashton, Goode, Wigglesworth, who is next, Jackson Wray?

Not sure he did Bam Bam...in fact he's not been very positive about Sarries at all since what ever happened between him and the club happened.

He does have a point though...these are players who are playing in a team that is amongst the top and used to a team game rather that some who are individualistic.

And for all the haters...even Ashton could well come back into the picture if Ford nails that 10 spot and opens up the play a little bit.
Though personally id stick with May and Watson on the wings...

I'm probably just being a grumpy git after staying up far too late watching the Super Bowl and being stuck at my desk this morning, sorry Beshocked

In fairness, Ashton didn't look too bad against the Wolfhounds, but for me Wade showed in one step why he should be in the mix on the wing.

The way he cut inside the defender for his try was pretty special, I can't see any other back who would be capable of such a move, maybe May would just turn on the gas, or Tuilagi would bludgeon over, but that was the kind of finish I would normally only see from the best SH players, so excited to see him in the side at some point

lostinwales he's been broken since last year's 6 nations (the end). I hope all the king's horses and all the king's men will be able to put him back together again.

Geordiefalcon Sarries have their pros and cons. I do think a lot of Sarries' players do get underappreciated because as you say they are team players. Even Ashton is a team player - many a time I have seen him slot into the backline trying to put others into space, his supporting runs are all about the team too.

I think it's sometimes more to do with their personality than their ability - Farrell and Ashton in particular aren't particularly liked - some of that criticism is warranted, some isn't.

Saracens don't have flashy players but most are pretty effective at what they do. It's about using the players you have properly.

Balance is everything in rugby IMO. Need to get the right balance in weight,power,workrate,set piece prowess,defence,attack, decision making etc.

But they are confident...and sometimes that is misinterpreted as arrogance.

I agree with LIW, a fully fit and on form Farrell is a player you want in your options.

He'll never set the world alight in regards to running rugby but he is a controller, a leader, physical and aggressive.

lostinwales wrote:It may be that a year down the line we are only arguing about Slade vs Ford at 10,

Until Slade can get the Exeter 10 shirt, he is simply a case of unproven potential. Who knows, he could turn out to be our Ian Madigan rather than a genuine international stand off.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But they are confident...and sometimes that is misinterpreted as arrogance.

I agree with LIW, a fully fit and on form Farrell is a player you want in your options.

He'll never set the world alight in regards to running rugby but he is a controller, a leader, physical and aggressive.

I would like him to take a look at his tactical kicking game, work on it and come back improved. Yes he may never be twinkle toes - but he could be an excellent controlling 10 if he sorts the kicking out.

Wales side has been named, for anyone who hasn't seen it:

1. Jenkins, 2. Hibbard, 3. Lee
4. Jones, 5. Ball
6. Lydiate, 7. Warburton, 8. Faletau
9. Webb, 10. Biggar
11. North, 12. Roberts, 13. JD2, 14. Cuthbert
15. Halfpenny

16. Baldwin, 17. James, 18. Jarvis, 19. Charteris, 20. Tipuric, 21. Phillips, 22. Preistland, 23. Williams

edit - beaten to it!

Good Welsh side. Going to be tough.

Looks full strength to me

beshocked wrote: Good Welsh side. Going to be tough.

If all on form etc. But also the only thing 'new' to England will be Webb, and you have got the old tried and trusted on the bench..

I have a pretty bad feeling about this game. Don't think it'll be a wupping but I think we're going to struggle against that side.

A good settled Welsh side, this will be difficult.

It will be very interesting to see what comes of these new talks between the RFU and clubs over the player agreement. Something needs to change for England's elite and they need more rest periods. The RFU have clearly got a lot of money, now let's see them put it to good use by keeping England players in England and looked after.

Ok, is this the official match thread ? I think it should be, that is a decent side that Wales have put out, and I will say this now, I am quietly confident, and I hope that if Dylan Hartley is picked for England, then the ref comes down hard on his "popping up" at scrum time, he does that quite often and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

I think we need a new match thread, this is more a discussion of the england team

lostinwales wrote:I think we need a new match thread, this is more a discussion of the england team

Good idea, I agree, since you have put your name forward the job is yours, congratulations.

Rugby Fan wrote:Brian Moore says it's hard to see England winning:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11383198/Six-Nations-2015-Lengthy-injury-list-must-force-England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-to-lower-his-ambitions.html

Well I quite agree with him; Wales are favourites and rightly so.

They have home advantage, a good, settled cohesive team, and (as ever) they will be hugely motivated for a game against England. England are in a bit of a mess: injuries all over the place and very little cohesion as a result.

What England do have in their favour, though, is that the pressure will be on Wales, and that perhaps the emerging players under Lancaster have more to prove in a World Cup year than the (relatively) settled unit of Wales, so they should play above themselves.

The game, I think, will depend on the opening twenty minutes. That is where England are weakest (they pretty much lost the opening game to France in the opening twenty minutes after giving themselves too much to do), and the Millennium crowd will be at their strongest.

If England can see out the opening salvo with a maximum of a one-score deficit, they may just grow sufficiently into the game to take it with an ordinary looking Welsh bench coming on in the second half. Otherwise...well let us not go there.

Dan Cole will officially start as Wilson has been ruled out

I think its difficult to judge how we'll do as I don't have a clue who's fit or not for us and who will actually take the field.

But Looking at that Welsh side....in Cardiff....its not going to be an easy start to the 6n.

Duty281 wrote:with an ordinary looking Welsh bench coming on in the second half

Baldwin and Jarvis aside, that is anythign BUT an ordinary looking Welsh bench. Liam Williams and Justin Tuperic are game changers.

Key for me will be reffing of the scrums. Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game. Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Would you agree these are the probable starters? As for the rest....who knows

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Attwood
5
6
7 Robshaw
8 Billy V

9 Care / Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12
13
14 Watson
15 Brown

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

I am not sure what David Stretle has done not to get selected.

Ashton i think will start with May on the other wing, Wade and Yard fighting it out for a bench spot.

GF i think Watson will be on the bench as cover at fullback.

I must be the only one who thought Watson was excellent in the games in the AI. May got the plaudits due to the tries but Watson was excellent.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you agree these are the probable starters? As for the rest....who knows

1 Marler
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Attwood
5
6
7 Robshaw
8 Billy V

9 Care / Youngs
10 Ford
11 May
12
13
14 Watson
15 Brown

Um..Kruis at 5? Haskell 6. Twelvetrees and Joseph in the centre?

I can't quite remember which players are injured and which are fine!

Of all the players you could drop into England and expect to perform after so long on the sidelines Cole is probably the one you would worry about least, but its not exactly ideal.

Hope he is up to speed on his turnover work. We have missed that aspect

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Aye, Hartley always seems to get an easy ride from referees.

Duty,

Kruis is an obvious one...but then you could just as easily pick Kitchener?

Similarly Haskell at 6 but then he may go for Calum Clark has been top class this season and who is identikit for Wood just a bit more aggressive maybe.

I think your probably right in the centres though...god help us if Twelvetrees has his usual calamities....

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Key for me will be reffing of the scrums.  Both teams like to play for pens from the scrums rather than using it to restart the game.  Which way the ref calls it and how good he is at spotting trickery will go a long way to deciding the game.

Well, if this is the case, then I hope the ref does something about the way Dylan Hartley always pops up at scrum time, seriously I have even seen him stand upright on times when the pressure is on and nothing ever seems to get done about it.

Depends if Jenkins has his compass with him so he can drive straight