Ulster 2014/2015, Part 4

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God we love the sound of our own voices.

The problem with Allen is that he tends to make mistakes. I would put him in the Adam D'arcy category of player. Not in the sense that D'arcy was a lot more mercurial but rather that when the pressure was on there would be a mistake or two that crept in. This usually manifests itself in handling errors for Michael Allen but in fairness to the lad he has never been given the prolonged run in one position to see if he can be bettered.

I don't think it is a disastrous loss for ulster but I think it could potentially be a very tidy acquisition for Edinburgh. We have Stockdale, Owens, Scholes who have already played for the senior team along with our three internationals so we are quite well stocked. Scholes in particular looks a useful player

Standulstermen wrote:The problem with Allen is that he tends to make mistakes. I would put him in the Adam D'arcy category of player. Not in the sense that D'arcy was a lot more mercurial but rather that when the pressure was on there would be a mistake or two that crept in. This usually manifests itself in handling errors for Michael Allen but in fairness to the lad he has never been given the prolonged run in one position to see if he can be bettered.

I don't think it is a disastrous loss for ulster but I think it could potentially be a very tidy acquisition for Edinburgh. We have Stockdale, Owens, Scholes who have already played for the senior team along with our three internationals so we are quite well stocked. Scholes in particular looks a useful player

Stand for next season I think it could be an issue as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could be without Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy due to the RWC and while Scholes has looked good when given a chance Allens shown he can be a threat at Pro12 level and with a lot of players missing across the league he could have be a useful player at the start of the season

Thanks for all the comments about Allen.

If you go over to the Glasgow/Edinburgh thread this announcement has gone down like a large poo sandwich because there is currently a logjam of young backline players (especially wingers) who cannot currently get gametime and are all SQ now.

Edinburgh still needs some consistent quality at centre to partner Matt Scott, however, and that is acknowledged too. Albeit through gritted teeth.

George Carlin wrote:Thanks for all the comments about Allen.

If you go over to the Glasgow/Edinburgh thread this announcement has gone down like a large poo sandwich because there is currently a logjam of young backline players (especially wingers) who cannot currently get gametime and are all SQ now.

Edinburgh still needs some consistent quality at centre to partner Matt Scott, however, and that is acknowledged too. Albeit through gritted teeth.

In that case probably a strange signing. Allen is certainly proven now at pro12 level but I think its fair to say most of his 1st team experience is on the wing, even if a center by trade. That said Seymour wasn't setting the world alight when he left and look at him now. Good luck to him and hope it works out for both parties.

Allen is in the same bracket as D'Arcy on the wing, but all the reasons he is not a brilliant winger (not a polished finisher, not confident at taking on players one on one) will not prevent him being a great centre.

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The problem with Allen is that he tends to make mistakes. I would put him in the Adam D'arcy category of player. Not in the sense that D'arcy was a lot more mercurial but rather that when the pressure was on there would be a mistake or two that crept in. This usually manifests itself in handling errors for Michael Allen but in fairness to the lad he has never been given the prolonged run in one position to see if he can be bettered.

I don't think it is a disastrous loss for ulster but I think it could potentially be a very tidy acquisition for Edinburgh. We have Stockdale, Owens, Scholes who have already played for the senior team along with our three internationals so we are quite well stocked. Scholes in particular looks a useful player

Stand for next season I think it could be an issue as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could be without Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy due to the RWC and while Scholes has looked good when given a chance Allens shown he can be a threat at Pro12 level and with a lot of players missing across the league he could have be a useful player at the start of the season

I would quite surprised if Gilroy got ahead of Trimble, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald. Not that he isn't making a case but I don't see ulster losing three wingers. Either way it would leave us with (most likely) Marshall, Arnold, McCloskey, cave, Ludik, Owens, Scholes, stockdale, Nelson to cover the centres and back three which isn't too shabby considering we will probably have a strong team elsewhere.

Standulstermen wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The problem with Allen is that he tends to make mistakes. I would put him in the Adam D'arcy category of player. Not in the sense that D'arcy was a lot more mercurial but rather that when the pressure was on there would be a mistake or two that crept in. This usually manifests itself in handling errors for Michael Allen but in fairness to the lad he has never been given the prolonged run in one position to see if he can be bettered.

I don't think it is a disastrous loss for ulster but I think it could potentially be a very tidy acquisition for Edinburgh. We have Stockdale, Owens, Scholes who have already played for the senior team along with our three internationals so we are quite well stocked. Scholes in particular looks a useful player

Stand for next season I think it could be an issue as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that we could be without Bowe, Trimble and Gilroy due to the RWC and while Scholes has looked good when given a chance Allens shown he can be a threat at Pro12 level and with a lot of players missing across the league he could have be a useful player at the start of the season

I would quite surprised if Gilroy got ahead of Trimble, Bowe, Zebo and Fitzgerald. Not that he isn't making a case but I don't see ulster losing three wingers. Either way it would leave us with (most likely) Marshall, Arnold, McCloskey, cave, Ludik, Owens, Scholes, stockdale, Nelson to cover the centres and back three which isn't too shabby considering we will probably have a strong team elsewhere.

Maybe Bryn knows he'll have at least Gilroy available but given that Trimbles injured, Fitzgeralds a sneeze away from injuring something and Zebo was dropped for the Italy game theres a gamble involved.

The plus side is that the young guys will get a shot and it'll hopefully give them experience and the squad a bit more depth

I'd put Allen in the same bracket as Ian Whitten. Good but never going to be first choice at Ulster and a few ingredients short of Test class. He is a tad small to be a top centre which is why Ulster played him on the wing predominately, but doesn't have a great kicking game that back three players really need in their armoury. Maybe he can develop like Seymour has but Tommy's main problem was his unwillingness to learn among his peers, whereas Mike's attitude could never be questioned.

He will be a solid signing for Edinburgh, but wasn't progressing at Ulster, so it is probably a good deal for all three parties.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'd put Allen in the same bracket as Ian Whitten. Good but never going to be first choice at Ulster and a few ingredients short of Test class. He is a tad small to be a top centre which is why Ulster played him on the wing predominately, but doesn't have a great kicking game that back three players really need in their armoury. Maybe he can develop like Seymour has but Tommy's main problem was his unwillingness to learn among his peers, whereas Mike's attitude could never be questioned.

He will be a solid signing for Edinburgh, but wasn't progressing at Ulster, so it is probably a good deal for all three parties.

In agreement with all of that. Although I would be hopeful that Allen can progress with game time and good coaching, seems to have a good work rate and attitude, which counts for a lot in a young fella - had a great run of form early last season when he was Ulster's form wing for a spell, which shows what he can do.

The Great Aukster wrote:I'd put Allen in the same bracket as Ian Whitten. Good but never going to be first choice at Ulster and a few ingredients short of Test class. He is a tad small to be a top centre which is why Ulster played him on the wing predominately, but doesn't have a great kicking game that back three players really need in their armoury. Maybe he can develop like Seymour has but Tommy's main problem was his unwillingness to learn among his peers, whereas Mike's attitude could never be questioned.

He will be a solid signing for Edinburgh, but wasn't progressing at Ulster, so it is probably a good deal for all three parties.

Agree with most of what you say, but the lad is 6' and 15 stone, so hardly a midget! He is roughly the same height and weight as Cave and Payne and bigger than BOD or D'Arcy.

I think that, much like Paddy Wallace before him, he is a victim of his versatility and having been viewed as the guy who can fit in anywhere from 12-15, struggles to nail down a permanent spot.

Sound the Kyle McCall appearance klaxon! He's been spotted at loose head for the Ulster Ravens.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3512/Ravens-team-named-to-face-Munster-A.aspx

Thought I would mention, if anyone remembers Daniel Dass, a very promising young loose forward from Ulster (which we need plenty of!) he played in the Varsity Match at Twickenham in his first year at Cambridge. That is an outstanding achievement and shows that he is very highly rated.

David Humphreys, Tyrone Howe and Mike Gibson had all played in the Varsity Match before their Ulster/Ireland careers.

Never mind the Kyle McCall klaxon - Ruaidri Murphy is on the bench for the Ravens! Theres hope of an Australian international cap yet!

P.S. How many times isthat now we've played Heaney at 10 for the Ravens. Three? Is O'Hagan still injured? Is there nobody else??

Deccie Fitzpatrick is the Irish olayer due to retire with concussion issues:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/breaking-head-injuries-force-ireland-international-declan-fitzpatrick-into-early-retirement-31148046.html

Keep 'er lit, big lad.

Terrible to read the effect concussion has had an Deccie, his family life and playing career. It could also help explain why he punched Manici. Although I could understand why any player might have punched him.

Wishing all the best for Deccie, his family and his future career.

Reading about mood swings, sickness, migraines, trying to keep it secret and the toll being taken on his family really makes you realise how complicated and emotionally painful some injureis can be. It's not just about "he's lost a yard of pace".

Absolutely, Don. Added to that is the psychological effects it might have on players returning to play, even when they might be fully recovered from receiving concussions in quick succession. The stress on the individual and their family. It's heartening to read that Ulster Rugby is taking the issue as seriously as it is though, and hopefully concussion injuries will be less of an issue moving forward, and the likelihood of concussion syndrome greatly reduced.

So Deccies retiring? Farewell, Sweet Prince!

I can certainly relate to what Deccie's been going through as it sounds very much like the effects my own brain injury has had on me. I wouldn't consider walking onto a touch rugby pitch let alone anything resembling full contact so Deccie's choice, despite being a difficult one, is very much the right one.

Pete330v2 wrote:I can certainly relate to what Deccie's been going through as it sounds very much like the effects my own brain injury has had on me. I wouldn't consider walking onto a touch rugby pitch let alone anything resembling full contact so Deccie's choice, despite being a difficult one, is very much the right one.

Amen to that. Anyone with those kinds of symptoms shouldn't be anywhere near a scrum- and I hope Ulster and Luke Marshall have sought similar consultations with the same neurologist. I'm sure they have.

Such a pity for Deccie to have to retire but life its much more than just rugby so it's good to see it was spotted

The Ravens beat Munster A at Banbridge earlier as well 15-13 http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3515/Ulster-Ravens-15-Munster-A-13-.aspx

I'd count it a win based on the shirts they were playing in alone

Munster had a seriously experienced team out as well.

They did well todaywhich is pleasing considering how the rest of the season went for them

Those shirts must a Munster tactic to blind the opposition. Horrible!

Very good win for the Ravens. Apparently there was a bit of handbags, DOC in the bin for a late tackle on Heaney (I think it was him anyway), a Try for Munster ruled out. Would liked to have seen that one.

Plenty of people would like to have seen it - if it had been staged at a time when they could have got to it.

It's interesting that Jack O'Donoghue was captain in a team with that level of experience. It's also interesting that Munster fielded a team of that experience full stop, and amazing that the Ravens beat them. It probably helped that the Ravens had 11 replacements on the bench to Munster's 9!

It was a great result at the end of a poor season for the Ravens.

So, what now for Friday's match, will Leinster flog out their best team despite having played an extra time match in desperation to grab atop 4 pro12 spot?

It would have been better if they had won, but having them play extra time is perfect. Physically and mentally tough for them to recover for Ravenhilll

I just hope our guys are still angry at the man shaming they handed out to our pack earlier this year

Worryingly our scrum which is usually so strong took a few wobbles against Connacht. Hopefully wobbles are simply what they were or is Herbst knackered after a very busy season for him?
Does he have more gametime than anyone else this season?

Connacht also have a very strong scrum as well they are right up there at the top of scrums won with us in the Pro 12 so it's maybe that we are a little tired but also that they are just really good scrumagers as well

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/blame-me-says-billy-vunipola-but-saracens-director-of-rugby-mark-mccall-rules-out-big-signings-10188567.html

Mark McCall has had a pop at us over the Piatau signings

Criticising his old province Ulster’s signing of the All Blacks wing Charles Piutau for upping the market rate, McCall added: “I’m a great believer that people should get what they deserve but it’s getting more difficult when some clubs splash big on someone who probably doesn’t deserve that kind of salary.”

Its not like Saracens have ever spent silly money on a top All Black after a WC, like signing Chris Jack in 2007 or anything like that. I wonder is this about Saracens financial difficulties - allegedly in £40 million of debt and McCall admitting they wont be making any signings.

I thought it was a bit rich to have a pop at a business running a surplus investing in playing staff from the perspective of being a part of a business in debt for tens of millions of pounds. Which is a sustainable model for professional rugby?

Notch wrote:I thought it was a bit rich to have a pop at a business running a surplus investing in playing staff from the perspective of being a part of a business in debt for tens of millions of pounds. Which is a sustainable model for professional rugby?

Yep, his concern is that Saracens who keep making the knockouts of Europe might not be able to compete financially when he see signings like Piatau. Makes it all the more bizarre that Saracens want rid of the salary cap.

With Griffiths leaving, and against his will, I think Sarries might be feeling the pinch. Considering the reckless manner in which the french clubs throw money about to buy wins, knocking Sarries out of the competition, I can't understand why he would target Ulster for a swipe?

Nothing like burning your bridges, Mark

Munchkin wrote:With Griffiths leaving, and against his will, I think Sarries might be feeling the pinch. Considering the reckless manner in which the french clubs throw money about to buy wins, I can't understand why he would target Ulster for a swipe?

Nothing like burning your bridges, Mark

I suspect bad blood at the way he and Ulster parted company is a factor as well, yeh.

That was a long time ago. He was treated harshly, but if it is that then he needs to grow up a bit. 'If'

No point getting on the wrong side of Logan. Who knows what the future could bring for Ulster Rugby in 2 or 3 seasons?

Disappointing from McCall. Up until these comments he would still have had some supporters for a return to Ulster - he has now burned those bridges. Now he will have to actually win something himself to convince people he actually has the coaching credentials to produce a winning team without trying to deflect attention onto others.

Don't really know where to post this, but did anyone see Against the Head last night? What an appalling programme. Just awful.

Don Alfonso wrote:Don't really know where to post this, but did anyone see Against the Head last night? What an appalling programme. Just awful.

Explain Don, I didn't see it but you've got my attention now

Artful_Dodger wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/blame-me-says-billy-vunipola-but-saracens-director-of-rugby-mark-mccall-rules-out-big-signings-10188567.html

Mark McCall has had a pop at us over the Piatau signings

Criticising his old province Ulster’s signing of the All Blacks wing Charles Piutau for upping the market rate, McCall added: “I’m a great believer that people should get what they deserve but it’s getting more difficult when some clubs splash big on someone who probably doesn’t deserve that kind of salary.”

Its not like Saracens have ever spent silly money on a top All Black after a WC, like signing Chris Jack in 2007 or anything like that.  I wonder is this about Saracens financial difficulties - allegedly in £40 million of debt and McCall admitting they wont be making any signings.

It just seems that sour grapes are freely available when Sarries lose a match. I mean why bring Ulster's business into it when it's got not a thing to do with the subject matter. Saracens made plenty of big money signings themselves and drafted in players by the score so McCall can sit in his glass house throwing stones all he likes to be honest. If he still feels bad about how he was treated by the old Ulster regime perhaps he needs a little reality check.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Don't really know where to post this, but did anyone see Against the Head last night? What an appalling programme. Just awful.

Explain Don, I didn't see it but you've got my attention now

It barely qualifies as television.

Brent Pope and Quinlan were effusive about how wonderful Leinster’s brave, proud loss was. Apparently they “should have won” (this was never explained). It was heroic, majestic. Two men constantly interrupting each other to say the same thing. Paddy Wallace was on, and looked like a frightened calf. I don’t think he finished a single answer, and he doesn’t look comfortable, which is a shame, because he tried to make the most astute points. While Pope was praising Madigan to the skies for having the chutzpah to throw Habana’s intercept, and blaming T’eo for running the wrong lines, it was Paddy who pointed out that it was turnover ball and the backline was out of position, and that Madigan must know that Habana is a renowned for those intercepts – he got to make about half his point. Later when they were all squabbling about concussions, Paddy started to talk about how much emphasis is put on physicality and “14 year olds in gyms” – he never got to take his point any further. He also talked about taking 12 weeks off after four concussion in one year and the difference that break made, and that once you have one concussion you’re more likely to get more. The obvious implications - lengthy layoffs after a first concussion - were never discussed. Instead Quinlan kept shouting about “education” and “what can we do?” and Pope told a half story about finding an old rugby magazine.

Quinlan interviewed O’Connell, in a sequence that was notable because it looked like it was filmed by a six year old and edited by his younger sister. The actual questions were hidden amongst a wave of Quinlan’s “remember when we played together, Paul? Remember that? Mmm? Wasn’t that great? I think you’re great. Do you think I’m great?” He asked one or two inetresting questions and then cut O'Connell off with greasy mateyness and ingratiation.

Self-congratulatory, agonising, tedious pub bores talking over each other, and Paddy Wallace looking like the firing squad was just having a quick fag before they shot him.

They need a broadcaster oin there, somewhere. It was Daire O'Brien rather than yer woman, whcih compounded it no end. Wafflers going round in circles.

I really liked Quinlan when he was playing, which makes his utter shoiteness as a pundit all the more disappointing. Banging on about pride and passion, and neglecting to talk about strategy, execution, discipline, organisation etc. etc.

He was speaking a lot of shoite the whole programme

What is your definition of passion? I just don't get the hangup you seem to have about it. Its just a word to me that describes putting total energy and commitment into the task at hand (which has been missing recently in Leinster's performances).

I think Leinster did restore pride in the jersey they wore on Sunday with their performance.

As for the interview with POC - I think you get an insight into the type of character POC is.

Don Alfonso wrote:Don't really know where to post this, but did anyone see Against the Head last night? What an appalling programme. Just awful.

Don't usually disagree Don but partially do in this instance.

There is always a behind the scenes piece and there was an informative piece on concussion in relation to different age groups and protocols between the amateur and pro game. Last week they had the views from three very different agents (including Constable), before that they had the Connacht Chief Executive outlining his strategy. They also show footage of the UBL and club competitions that otherwise wouldn't be available. As a Irish rugby magazine programme it does well enough even if it is more Hello than Spectator.

Regarding the standard of punditry, I agree it leaves a lot to be desired but then that is directly proportional to the standard of the pundit. Quinlan is their resident and is normally better that he was last night, although he did make a decent joke that he could still take POC 'one on one', and he did actually mention David Humphreys in the same breath as ROG and Sexton. Brent Pope is a Kiwi who lives in Ireland - that alone has been enough to get him air time for years, although I have yet to hear anything remotely insightful in all that time, as he believes quantity is better than quality.
Paddy Wallace has been on a few times and while he does come over as faltering, keeps getting asked back so someone must rate him as the token Ulsterman and just retired player.

It just felt like rubbish TV. Good points made were lost in the drone of idiots talking over each other, there was no structure to any of the discussions, I thought the POC interview was terrible. The actual insert abiout concussion was fine.

A couple of good, sharp pundits woudl be a god-send. If they need a token Ulsterman, Ferris speaks his mind. In fairness Wallace seems nervous, and may well settle into media work.

Sin é wrote:What is your definition of passion? I just don't get the hangup you seem to have about it. Its just a word to me that describes putting total energy and commitment into the task at hand (which has been missing recently in Leinster's performances).

I think Leinster did restore pride in the jersey they wore on Sunday with their performance.

As for the interview with POC - I think you get an insight into the type of character POC is.

I have no problem with 'passion', I am only irritated when it is mentioned as the only factor. What good is passion without strategy, discipline, organisation, skill etc? As if being passionate is ever enough in and of itself. This is the semi-final of the European Cup. You can take for granted that everyone is 'passionate'- be they home-grown players, foreign players, French, English, Irish. They are professional players two games away from a trophy. They are obviously all going to completely motivated. That is basically a given. Being passionate is the bare minimum expected of you.

Talking about one side doing well because of passion at this stage is almost always nonsense. It's a teams attention to detail, their structure, their composure, their accuracy, their discipline that matters. When Quinlan said 'passion and pride can get you close' I had to snort. Nonsense. Both teams played for the jersey as expected. Banging on about passion and pride is just a good way to avoid actually analysing why the game was won and lost.

What is your definition of passion though?

And I don't think that it was agreed was the only factor in it. Most of the conversation was about what extra they brought. I think we all assume a certain degree of professionalism.

I can think of games that Leinster & Munster were passionless. Munster a few years ago against Toulon, Leinster last year against Toulon. The difference between the Munster & Leinster performances last season down at Toulon was that Munster actually played with pashion. Leinster didn't. They did this year though.