ireland 6N warmdown and look ahead to RWC

First topic message reminder :



Two years in a row!! Both tournaments have been close run, but this team has come on leaps and bounds in the time Schmidt has been in charge. The team is playing with a confidence that has rarely been seen as consistently as this from past Irish teams, we can vary the gameplan to meet the needs of the contest, the new combinations are starting to gell, and we have genuine competition in most positions around the pitch.

So rather than scurrying around the rest of the forum attempting to put out fires that try to feebly illegitimise the championship win, I think we can look back on another positive campaign showing real growth but with plenty of areas for improvement.

Six Nations
Comfortable if not spectacular for the most part. The team looked in control in games versus Italy and France without impressing two much, both results felt like a job done. Against England and Scotland were the real high points. Ireland's plan of attack put England on the back foot for most of the game with Sexton and Murray managing the game brilliantly. Against Scotland it was great to see us play positive and expansive stuff, it is good to know we can play that ball in hand game and have the players to do so. The low point was the Wales game, but even then I feel the territory and possession Ireland had was encouraging, but there are lessons to be learned about finishing chances and adapting to the ref (although credit also to the Welsh defense who were immense).

The Squad
Front Row: McGrath has shown more evidence he is an able replacement to Healy, for me he is not that far off now and was unlucky to lose his place. Rory Best is fantastic in the loose and at the breakdown, but at times his throws can be suspect and Cronin is a great option to bring on and run the ball. Total turnaround for Mike Ross, had a very strong campaign I thought, and great there is finally an able body to come on in Marty Moore
Lock: POC is absolutely vital to the cause and I worry about the impact of his loss more so than BOD. Toner has become a beast in the last two years, but I would love to see what Henderson is capable of starting for Ireland. Getting the best locks in Ireland fit at the right times (Touhy and Ryan are both useful options) has been a problem but these three currently are head and shoulders above the challengers.
Back Row: One of our strongest positions in quality and depth. SOB grew into the tournament, Heaslip and POM work incredibly hard. Honorable mention to Murphy for his early performances which were very positive.
Half Backs: Sexton and Murray have to be the form pair in the world right now, blip against Wales aside. The drop off in quality from those two is a concern, although Reddan had a very strong cameo against Wales. The position of understudy for 10 is still very much up for grabs between Madigan, Jackson and Keatley. I feel the team need to bring on Marmion more as well.
Centres: Starting to get to know each other's games. Henshaw has been absolute quality in all performances, reliably outstanding. Payne has grown into the role and really shone against Scotland. I think there  may be options in coming through in Olding, McCloskey, Marshall and eventually Ringrose, and I'd say Henshaw may eventually move to 13 in green, but I'd wager the incumbents go into the world cup as 12 and 13.
Wings: Another area of strength, with some great variety in the options. Zebo was unlucky to miss out against Scotland but Fitzgerald made a real difference. Bowe for me has been solid but I think Trimble has been missed. Earls for me should be competing for this spot rather than at centre and I would like to see Gilroy push on from his early promise. I have slight concerns about how the wingers are slowly losing their creativity as they come into the set up a la Zebo, and would like to see them try something other than take the soonest contact and recycle
Full Back: Not sure about Rob. Not pulling up and trees but hasn't let anyone down either. I don't know if Jones offers much else that Kearney doesn't. I'd say there are more creative options in the wings that can play fullback in the Pro 12 but against the other 6Ns fullbacks I don't know when they could be blooded. Payne at 15 maybe?

World Cup
Anything other than a semi-final appearance would be a huge disappointment following the last two years of progress. A semi-final win at Twickers against England is certainly doable but it would be a big ask. Despite the last showing at a World Cup I am confident Ireland can go further this time.

Problem now is that Payne has been given his time to sink into the 13 role.  He's been strictly controlled in that role, as Earls would be too.  
But he's held his own and in that last game against Scotland, when some of the strict chains the Irish team were under in previous games were loosened, he showed he's ready to join and contribute to a more open game.

I think Earls should get warm-up games - undoubtedly.  But he'll be handicapped in a sense as I doubt the full Irish 'A' team will play in any of those games - I think (and hope) that they'll all be a mix of a few nailed on players and a good handful of fringe one.  So it'll be hard for any of the fringe guys to show their true ability when not allied with a more complete WC potential team.

Payne has done what was asked of him.  Played it honestly and boring for the honest and boring gameplans, and then opened up for the more loose Scotland game.  He might feel a might hard done by now if he was totally usurped for the WC.  

Earls has been unlucky.  Time hasn't worked his way with injuries.  You could sense Schmidt really wanted to work with him but there always seemed to be an obstacle.  I don't know what he'd have to show now in warm-up games to force Schmidt's hand, as Schmidt will be the one conducting the orchestra.... and I'd be surprised if he allowed his wings or centres the freedom to express themselves fully even in warm up games.

Hopefully Earls will get a couple of warm-up games, but he's probably going to need to be tried in the centre and on the wing as he'll not be first choice for either. He'll be a potentially useful squad member who can cover multiple positions.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I guess the issue is that if you use Henshaw at 13, then who will Ireland use at 12? Olding? Marshall?

I'm still not convinced by Payne at 13, but on review of the whole 6 Nations, the Henshaw/Payne combination did ok.

Olding and Marshall are both sick notes to be honest, which is absolutely gutting for both them and Ulster/Ireland. McCloskey is another 12 who looks to be the real deal, but the RWC is probably too early for him.

Henshaw/Payne is the only real logical choice going into the World Cup. I think Schmidt did a good job in hindsight.

I think that's right with Henshaw/Payne. It didn't set the heather on fire, but worked pretty well and they both have good skillsets. They said themselves that they felt the combination was developing, some things just take a bit more time.

McCloskey has huge potential but it's probably too early for him. A McCloskey/Henshaw centre pairing is a pretty powerful proposition.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think that's right with Henshaw/Payne. It didn't set the heather on fire, but worked pretty well and they both have good skillsets. They said themselves that they felt the combination was developing, some things just take a bit more time.

McCloskey has huge potential but it's probably too early for him. A McCloskey/Henshaw centre pairing is a pretty powerful proposition.

I think Henshaw will be the future irish 13. In the near future it will be between himself, Payne, Earls and Ringrose if he continues his amazing progress. All in all some very nice options for the future, and a great position to be in despite the retirement of BOD.

At 12 it is all going to depend on injuries and who takes their chances. I think it will definitely be an Ulster 12 though, when all are fit we are stacked with potential there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think it will definitely be an Ulster 12 though, when all are fit we are stacked with potential there.

I'd agree, but Leinster do seem to be sticking with Madigan at 12 and I can see Schmidt wanting to try him there for Ireland.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:The one thing which Kearney & Dowling lacked was pace - essential in a winger in my opinion.

Not in Schmidt's Ireland, it ain't.

Besides I do sometimes snigger at this idea of 'pace' and Ireland, and Irish players.  

Where is our real pace?  And when do we genuinely use much of it?  Have we ever used genuine real pace to open up opponents?  
Pace of forward phase play momentum - yes.  
Pace often of passing close to the line - yes.  
Pace in keeping a game moving at a quick momentum - not allowing opponents to settle - taking lineouts quickly, sustaining a kick and chase game when the opponents are looking for a breather etc - yes.

But pace of the variety that England use or Wales sometimes use to open up, run through or around the opposition using breathlessly quick strike runners with Olympic class sprinting ability?  I seldom see it or have seen it.  Zebo himself would be burned in a trial of pace against quite a few of the players he meets at 6N level.  
And it's not only about a once off attack using pace - its about having the stamina to repeat and repeat through 80 minutes; the ability to have that weapon at the ready through game after game.  Not simply one special all-out game in a year.  Every game.

What players in Ireland show that consistency of pace at International level?  Few.  Even Bowe would admit he's not on his wing for his earth-shattering pace.

I'm talking about having at least one player that can take on someone else on the outside. I'd imagine the Ireland game is coached to deal with our complete lack of pace (and yes, Ireland used to have Denis Hickie who was fairly pacy) Horgan wasn't slow either. People used to complain about Girvan a bit because he lacked pace.

Just because there are faster players in the world than Zebo (who apparently is the fastest Irish player), you think we should exclude players because they actually have it

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think that's right with Henshaw/Payne. It didn't set the heather on fire, but worked pretty well and they both have good skillsets. They said themselves that they felt the combination was developing, some things just take a bit more time.

McCloskey has huge potential but it's probably too early for him. A McCloskey/Henshaw centre pairing is a pretty powerful proposition.

I think Henshaw will be the future irish 13. In the near future it will be between himself, Payne, Earls and Ringrose if he continues his amazing progress. All in all some very nice options for the future, and a great position to be in despite the retirement of BOD.

At 12 it is all going to depend on injuries and who takes their chances. I think it will definitely be an Ulster 12 though, when all are fit we are stacked with potential there.

I don't think so Rory. Henshaw is being groomed to be the Ireland 12 (Ireland's answer to SA's Jean de Villiers, or NZ's answer to Nonu). His size and physicality are of more use there than at 13.

I don't know what is wrong with the Ulster lads, but they are not very robust!

Henshaw is not a mere battering ram, and he is much more suited to 13. As I have said before he is a silky runner with quick feet and he runs good lines, and he actually reminds me a bit of Tommy Bowe when he used to play at 13 for the Ospreys. He is almost exactly the same build/size as Bowe as well, he isn't the same build as Nonu/Roberts/De Villiers. If we want a battering ram at 12 (with good handling skills) Stuart McCloskey or Luke Marshall are the better options.

I do find it amusing that it is mainly the Munster fans who wish to see Henshaw stick at 12. I wonder why that could be..

BTW I would also argue that the Ulster centres are very robust, all 3 of them are very physically capable to match anyone, the problem has been freak injuries. Recurring ones as well. It isn't just a problem for these guys though, it is a problem for many players and their teams. Such as Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is not a mere battering ram, and he is much more suited to 13. As I have said before he is a silky runner with quick feet and he runs good lines, and he actually reminds me a bit of Tommy Bowe when he used to play at 13 for the Ospreys. He is almost exactly the same build/size as Bowe as well, he isn't the same build as Nonu/Roberts/De Villiers. If we want a battering ram at 12 (with good handling skills) Stuart McCloskey or Luke Marshall are the better options.

I do find it amusing that it is mainly the Munster fans who wish to see Henshaw stick at 12. I wonder why that could be..

I don't think of Jean de Villiers as a battering ram (or Nonu either). At the moment, Henshaw provides a robustness in midfield that no one else can.

Stuart McCloskey and Luke Marshall both fulfil the role much better, so that isn't true.

Sin é wrote:

Just because there are faster players in the world than Zebo (who apparently is the fastest Irish player), you think we should exclude players because they actually have it

No need for eye rolls Sin.  Did I suggest I don't want speedsters?  I want more genuine speedsters not less of them.  I'm like a broken record with my whines about a lack of pace amongst Irish Internationals.... it kills me to see the techniques some of them use to sprint too.  And good shouts about Hickie and Horgan.  I was going to mention Hickie but thought it best to leave him to the history books.

BUT.................... that's my point.  Hickie wasn't just fast, he could mix up direction at speed and wrongfoot defenders at speed.  It's not only about trying to shoot past a defender, its about changing shape and direction in an instant AT high speed.  Not slowing down to do it, not doing all your evasion attempts before you even start running as often happens!!!!  A few jigs and a reel infront of a defence before actually trying to run.... infuriating.  Speed with guile and smartness.  Speed alone is only half the battle

I think Zebo is more a direct runner btw, who'll do the business if he has room and a target to get to.  Fitz has something but I'm still reserving judgement on him - he's promised much many times, and now I just want to see him prove he has that extra ingredient we need at International to open up space more skilfully than we do at present.

No we don't need one player who can do that.  I'd love about three genuine speed kings with genuine world class pace and smartness to leave defenders standing.  The gameplan too obviously has to cater for it to begin with but even if we were more open and offloaded more, I think we still struggle with the pace required to play it for extended periods.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stuart McCloskey and Luke Marshall both fulfil the role much better, so that isn't true.

Clearly Joe doesn't think so as they aren't really in the running for the wc squad.

ME-109 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stuart McCloskey and Luke Marshall both fulfil the role much better, so that isn't true.

Clearly Joe doesn't think so as they aren't really in the running for the wc squad.

Both have missed large portions of the season, so I don't blame him. If one of them shines between now and the World Cup, I would take one of them though. Otherwise there will not be any genuine 12s in the squad.

Madigan may be selected as a 10/12 option, though.

What's the latest news on Paddy Jackson?

He's fit and back playing.

Sin é wrote:The one thing which Kearney & Dowling lacked was pace - essential in a winger in my opinion.

Tommy Bowe is easliest our slowest winger and probably our best.

England dropped their fastest winger Ashton for other options.

Pace is only one characteristic of a good winger.

Being able to outrun a lock would be a good starting point.

Zeebs didn't demonstate the starting point ability too much during the 6N.

And one assumes that's why he was finally there on the team? To show up Daverage???

Hmmmm........ that hound didn't hunt unfortunately

ME-109 wrote:Being able to outrun a lock would be a good starting point.

Did Zebo have a better six nations this year than Kearney did last year? Not really is the answer. Which of the two was dropped?

Kind of makes all your whinging for Zeebs inclusion and playing the victim last year look really ridiculous.

Ah well you can rewrite the old history books there considering the amazing open and attacking rugby we were playing and therefore Zebo was clearly wasteful. Or you can consider that he got about as much attacking opportunity as John Hayes in Munster Senior cup final....however he did what was asked and resourced rucks made his tackles etc etc

Anyway regardless given the way we play it is clear that a plank could replace our wings and I dont think it matter who plays on the wing once they can tackle, catch and resource rucks. Because at the moment its not about scoring tries.

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Being able to outrun a lock would be a good starting point.

Did Zebo have a better six nations this year than Kearney did last year? Not really is the answer. Which of the two was dropped?

Kind of makes all your whinging for Zeebs inclusion and playing the victim last year look really ridiculous.

I did think he had a good six nations considering the opportunities were limited. Did well in all the games England and Italy specifically, looked solid followed the game plan did his "job" effectively. He is still a better wing than Daverage (at least he scores the odd try for both club and country).

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Being able to outrun a lock would be a good starting point.

Did Zebo have a better six nations this year than Kearney did last year? Not really is the answer. Which of the two was dropped?

Kind of makes all your whinging for Zeebs inclusion and playing the victim last year look really ridiculous.

That's the bottom line. I'd pick Zebo from the two, but really the difference isn't that big at all. Zebo is better at most facets of the game, but I'd still define him as an all rounder in the same mould as Kearney, not an out and out speedster like Watson etc. He isn't a crucial addition, nor loss to Ireland.

ME-109 wrote:

Anyway regardless given the way we play it is clear that a plank could replace our wings and I dont think it matter who plays on the wing once they can tackle, catch and resource rucks. Because at the moment its not about scoring tries.

There you go.  But last year that was clearly Daverage's fault and Zeebs would show him how to be an effective wing if he was given a bloody chance.
This year, it's all the coaches fault that Zeebs couldn't prove that Kearney wasn't needed.

I do think Zebo is a better option than Kearney. I think he can do everything Kearney can do, plus has a much better nose for the try line. But honestly, a player is always at his peak of his powers in debates like these when controversially not selected.

I think the question isn't about those two in a Rugby World Cup year, its about Zebo or Fitzgerald, Zebo or McFadden, Zebo or Trimble etc.

Does anyone else think McFadden could win back his spot for the RWC? Hasn't played for Ireland once this season, only featured as a sub in the 2014 6N, but covers both centre positions as well as wing and is another goal kicker. If we're going to be judging wingers based on their work rate, he's perfect. Could be Zebo loses out to a different Leinster wing.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Being able to outrun a lock would be a good starting point.

Did Zebo have a better six nations this year than Kearney did last year? Not really is the answer. Which of the two was dropped?

Kind of makes all your whinging for Zeebs inclusion and playing the victim last year look really ridiculous.

I did think he had a good six nations considering the opportunities were limited. Did well in all the games England and Italy specifically, looked solid followed the game plan did his "job" effectively. He is still a better wing than Daverage (at least he scores the odd try for both club and country).

Both Zebo and Kearney have a similar try scoring record for Ireland. About 1 try every 3 games.

Yes Zebo did do well but so did Kearney. Id say they were about the same albeit Zebo was dropped and Kearney wasnt.

ME-109 wrote:

Anyway regardless given the way we play it is clear that a plank could replace our wings and I dont think it matter who plays on the wing once they can tackle, catch and resource rucks. Because at the moment its not about scoring tries.

Ah that's not quite fair. To play for Ireland you need to be very fit (at least for the first 4 six nations games), and able to continue sprinting throughout the game at a reasonable speed to chase kicks or regather restarts. That's one area Bowe was very underrated in during the competition I thought. You also need to have an above average ability in the air, sure we all know that! Its probably something we take for granted as most Irish people are good at it, but its not something just anyone can do.

I also think its telling that the one game Ireland planned to run the ball (Scotland), was the game Zebo was dropped in favour of Fitzgerald. He can't be that much better than anyone else at attacking rugby.

I think both wings will have one of the least settled and 'feel safe' run-ins to the WC.

Bowe and Zebo, for different reasons, aren't home and safe.  Bowe needs his form to go up a few notches still.  Zebo needs to prove he's one of our 'room/space finding' players.  All players keep saying Schmidt doesn't limit them IF they find themselves with opportunities.  If they think they have something, he encourages them to come out of robot mode and go for it.

So the question is, where do Ireland have those game changing players - where is the new BOD that can find some magic from nothing-on?

To tell the truth I think Trimble is the closest we have.  I don't think Zebo has near the vicious physicality needed at International level to be such a player for us.  Fitz.............. hmmmm, still needs a good many more games to prove he has the x-factor back at International level.

So we pat ourselves on the back for a 6N campaign well done - but we're still criminally short of bona fide game-changer players who can find something special to unlock a defence with nothing more than instinct.

Don't mention O'Brien or Healy - they're battle rams who do nothing more than we expect when on form.  I'm talking genuine instinctive space finders.

SecretFly wrote:I think both wings will have one of the least settled and 'feel safe' run-ins to the WC.

Bowe and Zebo, for different reasons, aren't home and safe.  Bowe needs his form to go up a few notches still.  Zebo needs to prove he's one of our 'room/space finding' players.  All players keep saying Schmidt doesn't limit them IF they find themselves with opportunities.  If they think they have something, he encourages them to come out of robot mode and go for it.

So the question is, where do Ireland have those game changing players - where is the new BOD that can find some magic from nothing-on?

To tell the truth I think Trimble is the closest we have.  I don't think Zebo has near the vicious physicality needed at International level to be such a player for us.  Fitz.............. hmmmm, still needs a good many more games to prove he has the x-factor back at International level.

So we pat ourselves on the back for a 6N campaign well done - but we're still criminally short of bona fide game-changer players who can find something special to unlock a defence with nothing more than instinct.

Don't mention O'Brien or Healy - they're battle rams who do nothing more than we expect when on form.  I'm talking genuine instinctive space finders.

Craig Gilroy has been doing this every single game for Ulster this season. He is back to his best, and has been the in form winger in Ireland. Whether or not he can translate the same form to the international stage is another question, but I'm sure we all remember his debut against Argentina..

One important thing to note, even the greatest of wings will do very little if they are given no space to work with. Zebo cannot be criticised for his lack of attack in my opinion, because he had nothing to work with. Had he started against Scotland, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The best wingers go looking for ball or tend to be in the right place at the right time so the "nothing to work with" arguement is only a half truth IMO.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think both wings will have one of the least settled and 'feel safe' run-ins to the WC.

Bowe and Zebo, for different reasons, aren't home and safe.  Bowe needs his form to go up a few notches still.  Zebo needs to prove he's one of our 'room/space finding' players.  All players keep saying Schmidt doesn't limit them IF they find themselves with opportunities.  If they think they have something, he encourages them to come out of robot mode and go for it.

So the question is, where do Ireland have those game changing players - where is the new BOD that can find some magic from nothing-on?

To tell the truth I think Trimble is the closest we have.  I don't think Zebo has near the vicious physicality needed at International level to be such a player for us.  Fitz.............. hmmmm, still needs a good many more games to prove he has the x-factor back at International level.

So we pat ourselves on the back for a 6N campaign well done - but we're still criminally short of bona fide game-changer players who can find something special to unlock a defence with nothing more than instinct.

Don't mention O'Brien or Healy - they're battle rams who do nothing more than we expect when on form.  I'm talking genuine instinctive space finders.

Craig Gilroy has been doing this every single game for Ulster this season. He is back to his best, and has been the in form winger in Ireland. Whether or not he can translate the same form to the international stage is another question, but I'm sure we all remember his debut against Argentina..

One important thing to note, even the greatest of wings will do very little if they are given no space to work with. Zebo cannot be criticised for his lack of attack in my opinion, because he had nothing to work with. Had he started against Scotland, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes, Gilroy will need to be back in an International context before we could deduce how we might love having him back.  

But on your other point - I think a degree of fairness in it Rory but also a degree of unfairness.  There is still room within a very tight organisational structure that relies so heavily on robust defensive set-ups and frowns on considered mistakes - there is still room for one or two considered special players to find space where there should not be space and drag Ireland 'kicking' and screaming out of their coyness and safety mode.  I think Schmidt would actually welcome the emergence of such a player.  He certainly was effusive about BOD's role in making things happen - and he certainly gave Nacewa a licence to thrill. To say Schmidt discourages individualism is not bourn out when looking at his past. But they have to be genuine. Not bluffers. I think he frowns at play-maker pretensions that don't get backed up by solid evidence - at International level.

I think it's for the candidates now to show him they have the confidence to break out from 'safe' but to have all the skill options available to them to make it count.  If it's just bombast that continuously gets caught or isolated or becomes a routine where nothing much happens, then yes, Schmidt will be down on said player or players like a ton of bricks.  

But that's why I say we need one or two genuine players now to rise their heads up and have the courage to back their extra skills.  If they can genuinely back them then things might happen to free up Ireland, Ireland might be coaxed to come out of their shell more; but if they can't genuinely back up their assumptions about their own skill sets then it'll be dangerous for them when it comes to team selections.

But that's the deal and that's the risks.  I think Schmidt is goading someone to step up.  If you believe you have the skills then show yourself.... if you don't really back yourself then keep to the 'safety' plans.

Only if your allowed to. Zebo did it in the Italy game and after that zilch...i wonder why

Tbh, I think Gilroy has been playing great rugby but we already have so many options to consider on the wing it's not worth our while bringing him in for the World Cup warm-ups.

In those games the coaches will have to get a look at Zebo, Fitzgerald, Kearney, McFadden, Trimble and Bowe- there's no point in throwing in yet another winger to get game time in just four matches.

He can be an Ireland regular after the RWC, the age profile of the players ahead of him is in his favour.

ME-109 wrote:Only if your allowed to. Zebo did it in the Italy game and after that zilch...i wonder why

Zebo is caught in a conundrum he doesn't know how to break out of.  Attack or defend.  Which skills to apply.  The real deal is that Schmidt is very demanding - yes - and demands both....with priority to defending.

Zebo was obviously told he needed to get down and dirty and aid in defensive duties much more...to be honest for 80 minutes and help out the boys in the dirt, as it were.  Don't be a purist wing and lull over on the sideline waiting for some action.  

So Zebo applies himself - good man.  He's to be applauded for it.  But now he doesn't seem to be able to operate on two levels.  He's so preoccupied with being a good boy in defence that his mind is not plotting and planning attack.

That's tough.  I appreciate what people say when they say Schmidt dries up creativity in players because he is so demanding on the 'safe' elements.  But that's him - that's his coaching.  You have to be a pretty fine all round player to meet his demands.  I think Zebo or other backs might have the whole package but they are now so tentative it's stalling them.  

I say its time some of them took the risks and attempted to show Schmidt they have it all.  Energy sapping stuff - but that's what separates the few greats from the many also-rans.

Somthing i would like to see is Zebo at Fullback. i say this for two main reasons,

Firstly while solid and reliable Kearney has added nothing to the irish attack in quite a while other than kicking the ball into the air or running directly into a defender. i would like to see how many times he actually passed the ball to a supporting winger or anyone.

Secondly i think given space you may actually see Zebo run at space. much of the time when he got the ball with Ireland he had very little space to work with. gathering from full back you could see a smashing counter attacking player.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:Somthing i would like to see is Zebo at Fullback. i say this for two main reasons,

Firstly while solid and reliable Kearney has added nothing to the irish attack in quite a while other than kicking the ball into the air or running directly into a defender. i would like to see how many times he actually passed the ball to a supporting winger or anyone.

Secondly i think given space you may actually see Zebo run at space. much of the time when he got the ball with Ireland he had very little space to work with. gathering from full back you could see a smashing counter attacking player.

Kearney is playing himself out of International rugby.  A real weak link at this point.  Form must improve or yes, Zebo might look very tasty there.  I'd even have had Felix Jones in for most of the 6N.

GunsGerms wrote:The best wingers go looking for ball or tend to be in the right place at the right time so the "nothing to work with" arguement is only a half truth IMO.

But when the Welsh plan A attack fails, even North and Cuthbert become completely useless. Probably two of the most dangerous wingers in the game, next to Julian Savea. Give them quick ball and even a bit of space to work with, and they tear up trees.

But back to Ireland, we know that the Irish attack was a weakness, so to single out any of the wingers is just daft.

Oh, I'm a big fan of trying Zebo out at fullback. He could really blossom there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The best wingers go looking for ball or tend to be in the right place at the right time so the "nothing to work with" arguement is only a half truth IMO.

But when the Welsh plan A attack fails, even North and Cuthbert become completely useless. Probably two of the most dangerous wingers in the game, next to Julian Savea. Give them quick ball and even a bit of space to work with, and they tear up trees.

On the contrary, Rory.  I'd say that's when Wales have often been most dangerous....when plan A fails.  Plan A from Gatland is as meticulous as Schmidt's.  It's structured and it allows a lot less 'instinct' from the players than people might think.  Italy this year was more an unstructured, shackles off instinct game.  Scotland last year when they went a man down due to a red card, that was Wales not using Plan A.
When Welsh backs have been to the wall, when scores have been going against them, that's when they've often habitually thrown plans out the window and have often played their best instinctive keeping-ball-alive-and-mobile play.  I remember that losing game to Ireland a few years ago too.  When the chips were down, they got more dangerous playing looser than playing to their Plan A structure.  Off the cuff wonder stuff.  I think players like North and Cuthbert are actually curtailed in their attacking effectiveness by the very rules of normal Gatball. Gats like 'safety' games too.

Plan A generally means Roberts/Davies are making midfield breaks (especially the former) and creating space for the outside backs. I would definitely say when Plan A works, we see North/Cuthbert scoring a lot of tries. It is quite simple, when space and quick ball is available, the outside backs will score tries.

Which is why we actually need a few bosh merchants such as Healy or O'Brien so that we can generate momentum and get on the front foot. Every team has them, either in the forwards or in the backs (or both).

We don't see them scoring lots of tries against the best sides Rory. Plan A isn't working so fluidly against best sides.

But anyway, I can see more options than bosh merchants for us if we were just smarter with back play options and used offloading and angled running more effectively. I think we play the biggest part in our own fatigue towards the end of big games now. I think we need to wise up and start being smarter by avoiding collisions rather than actively seeking them to 'draw in the defence'.

There is a smarter way to play that allows players to avoid the fatigue vulnerability at the end of tough encounters whereby we are left defending post-points gained rather than tries gained.

But then, maybe it's all a fancy decoy that Schmidt grows and grows towards the WC and that we've all fallen for, just like he hoped we would

You used the O word Fly...about as rare as a Dodo and a flock of pink elephants with the way we currently play

I know...I tried to get it in there when I thought nobody was looking. Apologies all - I won't mention it again - unless I think people are sleeping again

Anyway, I mentioned this on another thread - what do people think about bringing back Stringer as a bloody good Numero 2 option as scrum half alongside Numero Uno Murray for WC?

The guy still has it - never bloody lost it. Looks sharp, looks fit, looks like he still has a big heart and lungs for heavy duty games (unlike Reddan).... and certainly knows how to get tempo into a game that needs it.

No home as yet. No Irish Province seems to be looking for him.... but?

I've heard he may be going to Leinster as RWC cover, which would be an excellent signing. He could do a job, but I'd imagine for the same reasons he was dropped in the first place. His arrow-fast passing game and organisation skills give his 10 time but he simultaneously takes that time away because defences know he offers little threat around the fringes and they can just target the out half. I think nowadays a box kicking game and a threat around the fringes are viewed as more important than a fast pass.

The other backups do seem as bad in different ways though.

He ain't that lame around the fringes.  And from what I remember of him he had the smarts not to be always trying the fringes so that when a fringe option did arrive, he had surprise very much in his corner.

I think his mind is so fast and his execution so good, and his instinctive communication with POC too about knowing when to keep it forwards driven and when to slide it out to backs...I've simply never seen a 9 as good as Stringer at the details of his craft.  His only downfall is his lack of obvious size and physicality - but it's not much of a one when you need maybe 30 minutes at the end of a game of intense, high speed rugby through forwards or backs, setting up myriads of options for a 10 to play with.

I really think no other alternative to Murray plays close to his level and Ireland coaches would be fools not to contemplate him as a real option.

SecretFly wrote:He ain't that lame around the fringes.  And from what I remember of him he had the smarts not to be always trying the fringes so that when a fringe option did arrive, he had surprise very much in his corner.

I think his mind is so fast and his execution so good, and his instinctive communication with POC too about knowing when to keep it forwards driven and when to slide it out to backs...I've simply never seen a 9 as good as Stringer at the details of his craft.  His only downfall is his lack of obvious size and physicality - but it's not much of a one when you need maybe 30 minutes at the end of a game of intense, high speed rugby through forwards or backs, setting up myriads of options for a 10 to play with.

I really think no other alternative to Murray plays close to his level and Ireland coaches would be fools not to contemplate him as a real option.

+1 on that. Beyond Murray our options are poor and neither Reddan, Boss or Marmion currently inspires a whole load of confidence as the bench SH. A few months into the season thought Marmion was a shoo-in for the RWC squad as the third SH but he's gone backwards in the past few months and seems to take a lot of wrong options and tries too hard. Stringer's pass is still something of beauty - and surely aspiring Irish SH's should be looking at his technique where he's able to fire out pinpoint 20 metre passes off either hand without having to take a couple of steps. Giving Sexton that amount of time and space in the last 20-30 minutes of a match would be a real bonus.

Tell you what, whenever he retires Stringer should set himself up as a passing coach.

I think Reddan is very underrated and better than a peak Stringer imo, even now.

Boss is better than given credit for too, it's no coincidence that both O'Connor and Schmidt rate him.

McGrath and Marmion are both talented and should come good post RWC. Paul Marshall has gone backwards though.

I think there are some decent options there and although Stringer could do a job for one of the provinces that would be it - hasn't been great at Bath imo.

So how many games have you seen him play with Bath this season or last?