ireland 6N warmdown and look ahead to RWC

by Marshes Tue 24 Mar 2015, 12:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yahoo

Two years in a row!! Both tournaments have been close run, but this team has come on leaps and bounds in the time Schmidt has been in charge. The team is playing with a confidence that has rarely been seen as consistently as this from past Irish teams, we can vary the gameplan to meet the needs of the contest, the new combinations are starting to gell, and we have genuine competition in most positions around the pitch.

So rather than scurrying around the rest of the forum attempting to put out fires that try to feebly illegitimise the championship win, I think we can look back on another positive campaign showing real growth but with plenty of areas for improvement.

Six Nations
Comfortable if not spectacular for the most part. The team looked in control in games versus Italy and France without impressing two much, both results felt like a job done. Against England and Scotland were the real high points. Ireland's plan of attack put England on the back foot for most of the game with Sexton and Murray managing the game brilliantly. Against Scotland it was great to see us play positive and expansive stuff, it is good to know we can play that ball in hand game and have the players to do so. The low point was the Wales game, but even then I feel the territory and possession Ireland had was encouraging, but there are lessons to be learned about finishing chances and adapting to the ref (although credit also to the Welsh defense who were immense).

The Squad
Front Row: McGrath has shown more evidence he is an able replacement to Healy, for me he is not that far off now and was unlucky to lose his place. Rory Best is fantastic in the loose and at the breakdown, but at times his throws can be suspect and Cronin is a great option to bring on and run the ball. Total turnaround for Mike Ross, had a very strong campaign I thought, and great there is finally an able body to come on in Marty Moore
Lock: POC is absolutely vital to the cause and I worry about the impact of his loss more so than BOD. Toner has become a beast in the last two years, but I would love to see what Henderson is capable of starting for Ireland. Getting the best locks in Ireland fit at the right times (Touhy and Ryan are both useful options) has been a problem but these three currently are head and shoulders above the challengers.
Back Row: One of our strongest positions in quality and depth. SOB grew into the tournament, Heaslip and POM work incredibly hard. Honorable mention to Murphy for his early performances which were very positive.
Half Backs: Sexton and Murray have to be the form pair in the world right now, blip against Wales aside. The drop off in quality from those two is a concern, although Reddan had a very strong cameo against Wales. The position of understudy for 10 is still very much up for grabs between Madigan, Jackson and Keatley. I feel the team need to bring on Marmion more as well.
Centres: Starting to get to know each other's games. Henshaw has been absolute quality in all performances, reliably outstanding. Payne has grown into the role and really shone against Scotland. I think there may be options in coming through in Olding, McCloskey, Marshall and eventually Ringrose, and I'd say Henshaw may eventually move to 13 in green, but I'd wager the incumbents go into the world cup as 12 and 13.
Wings: Another area of strength, with some great variety in the options. Zebo was unlucky to miss out against Scotland but Fitzgerald made a real difference. Bowe for me has been solid but I think Trimble has been missed. Earls for me should be competing for this spot rather than at centre and I would like to see Gilroy push on from his early promise. I have slight concerns about how the wingers are slowly losing their creativity as they come into the set up a la Zebo, and would like to see them try something other than take the soonest contact and recycle
Full Back: Not sure about Rob. Not pulling up and trees but hasn't let anyone down either. I don't know if Jones offers much else that Kearney doesn't. I'd say there are more creative options in the wings that can play fullback in the Pro 12 but against the other 6Ns fullbacks I don't know when they could be blooded. Payne at 15 maybe?

World Cup
Anything other than a semi-final appearance would be a huge disappointment following the last two years of progress. A semi-final win at Twickers against England is certainly doable but it would be a big ask. Despite the last showing at a World Cup I am confident Ireland can go further this time.

by **rodders** Fri 10 Apr 2015, 2:41 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, that post is eerily similar to the excuses made for another certain player being dropped a couple of years ago..

I actually agree with Zebo on this issue. He was dropped in the game perfectly suited for him. Up until that game, our attacking play was completely subpar. I think we can all agree on that.

I sincerely hope to see Zebo starting again for Ireland in the RWC and our attacking play to improve.

Well I though Fitzgerald brought more cutting edge than Zebedee and the interplay between him and Henshaw was one of the things caused Scotland most problems.

Zebo did ok but did struggle against the physicality of the Welsh defence - clearly he was told at half time to get on the ball more and to his credit took the ball at first receiver a few times but generally didn't create very much.

Defensively was very good against France but given the competition for place I don't think he can feel too hard done by.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Apr 2015, 2:53 pm

My point is that Zebo was one of the most consistent Ireland players, and even if he is whinging (which I don't think he is) he is still right, he did the job asked of him and was very strong defensively. I honestly don't know what else he could have done. He was never going to crash the ball through the likes of George North, he isn't that sort of player. It is the same for Gilroy, Fitzgerald etc. You play to the strengths of your players.

The thing is, he isn't physical enough for the current game plan, where Ireland will need a Cuthbert/North/Savea type winger to have any sort of impact. Trimble will be good here and if fit and on form, he is nailed on. However, I think we would all rather see a more expansive game plan introduced, and play to the strengths of our players.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:00 pm

rodders wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, that post is eerily similar to the excuses made for another certain player being dropped a couple of years ago..

I actually agree with Zebo on this issue. He was dropped in the game perfectly suited for him. Up until that game, our attacking play was completely subpar. I think we can all agree on that.

I sincerely hope to see Zebo starting again for Ireland in the RWC and our attacking play to improve.

Well I though Fitzgerald brought more cutting edge than Zebedee and the interplay between him and Henshaw was one of the things caused Scotland most problems.

Zebo did ok but did struggle against the physicality of the Welsh defence - clearly he was told at half time to get on the ball more and to his credit took the ball at first receiver a few times but generally didn't create very much.

Defensively was very good against France but given the competition for place I don't think he can feel too hard done by.

But the game opened up for Fitzgerald to do that, and I am convinced had Zebo started he would be getting the same praise and as we wouldn't be having this discussion!

by **rodders** Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:01 pm

Yeah I don't accept that - He was picked because the tactics suited him - i.e. he is good in the air and has a good left boot.

Against Scotland the plan was to keep the ball in hand and Fitzgerald is more creative.

Zebo might think from the stands that he'd have scored a load of tries but the truth is that nothing he's done so far has produced evidence of that.

He has space to go round North - a very poor defender - and got smashed. There's his chance to show what he can do there and he blows it.

Schmidt likes players who are self critical and always looking to improves - Zebo's comments won't help his rwc cause given the competition.

by ME-109 Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:16 pm

rodders wrote:Yeah I don't accept that - He was picked because the tactics suited him - i.e. he is good in the air and has a good left boot.

Against Scotland the plan was to keep the ball in hand and Fitzgerald is more creative.

Zebo might think from the stands that he'd have scored a load of tries but the truth is that nothing he's done so far has produced evidence of that.

He has space to go round North - a very poor defender - and got smashed. There's his chance to show what he can do there and he blows it.

Schmidt likes players who are self critical and always looking to improves - Zebo's comments won't help his rwc cause given the competition.

Ah rodders you're hilarious or else suffering from the same dementia the press is suffering from. Just for fun as I am bored....
In the Welsh game at no time did he receive the ball at first receiver...he should have done but Johnny dont allow it. I refer to the Italian game when Zebo did get his hands on the ball a lot more and made space for Payne on a number of occasions..
He got ball and North at the same time in the Welsh game...great opportunity there, and given the narrowness of the attacking play was lucky he even got that.

Overall Luke Fitz probably saw more of the ball in the first 20 mins against Scotland than Bowe and Zebo combined up to that point in the tournament. Even then Fitz/Payne and Kearney managed to butcher a number of chances...we revert to type and luckily the forwards overpowered the Scots (at least Payne scored a good try). Fitz made all his metres in those first 20 mins. Didnt see the ball after.

by Nachos Jones_1 Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:17 pm

I don't think that Zebo is of the opinion that he would have scored 'a load of tries'. I think that he is (rightly IMO) disappointed at being rested after doing everything asked of him before a game that was pretty much the approach that he loves, ie more expansive.

Again, no slur against Fitz who did a very good job but Zebo has every right to be disappointed. What player wouldn't?

by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:18 pm

On O'Driscoll. That episode was a blunt long-time-coming pay back to the IRFU. I'll go to my grave believing that. Nobody will dissuade me from believing it. That was Gats showing he has an elephant's memory and I feel he built and built towards that very moment. He wanted to be the coach that hired AND fired Brian O'Driscoll - to take the conclusion of O'Driscoll's career out of the IRFU's hands.

And surprised he was to see BOD still there the following season in Irish colours. I genuinely feel that he expected BOD to end his International career after the Lions.

I'm not against players being placed and replaced as the game requires or as you build towards a big event like a WC. I've often said BOD was off form and might need replacing for certain games in the past.
Schmidt does not hate Zebo and Zebo will play a big part in Irish affairs over the next few years. BOD was personal history and personal business taken care of when most hurt could be extracted and my blood boiled because of it. Other Irish players didn't play in that final game. No big deal. BOD and Gats and the IRFU was different.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:25 pm

rodders wrote:Yeah I don't accept that - He was picked because the tactics suited him - i.e. he is good in the air and has a good left boot.

Against Scotland the plan was to keep the ball in hand and Fitzgerald is more creative.

Zebo might think from the stands that he'd have scored a load of tries but the truth is that nothing he's done so far has produced evidence of that.

He has space to go round North - a very poor defender - and got smashed. There's his chance to show what he can do there and he blows it.

Schmidt likes players who are self critical and always looking to improves - Zebo's comments won't help his rwc cause given the competition.

Come on, that is not true at all, the space was closed down and he was literally static and only had one option - to crash it up through George North. Not one of our wingers would have done any better, with the exception of Trimble who may actually match the physicality. He would never have actually got past him though.

If you think Zebo isn't as creative as Fitzgerald I would suggest you watch more of both Leinster and Munster! Fitz may have the quicker feet but Zebo is by far the better playmaker.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:On O'Driscoll. That episode was a blunt long-time-coming pay back to the IRFU. I'll go to my grave believing that. Nobody will dissuade me from believing it. That was Gats showing he has an elephant's memory and I feel he built and built towards that very moment. He wanted to be the coach that hired AND fired Brian O'Driscoll - to take the conclusion of O'Driscoll's career out of the IRFU's hands.

And surprised he was to see BOD still there the following season in Irish colours. I genuinely feel that he expected BOD to end his International career after the Lions.

I'm not against players being placed and replaced as the game requires or as you build towards a big event like a WC. I've often said BOD was off form and might need replacing for certain games in the past.
Schmidt does not hate Zebo and Zebo will play a big part in Irish affairs over the next few years. BOD was personal history and personal business taken care of when most hurt could be extracted and my blood boiled because of it. Other Irish players didn't play in that final game. No big deal. BOD and Gats and the IRFU was different.

Yeah I know it was a different scenario, but the comments such as "it was the right decision, as they won the game" or "Fitzgerald (Davies) played really well" still stand. BOD (Zebo) would also have excelled in that game. The comments being made are quite similar.

by GunsGerms Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
rodders wrote:Yeah I don't accept that - He was picked because the tactics suited him - i.e. he is good in the air and has a good left boot.

Against Scotland the plan was to keep the ball in hand and Fitzgerald is more creative.

Zebo might think from the stands that he'd have scored a load of tries but the truth is that nothing he's done so far has produced evidence of that.

He has space to go round North - a very poor defender - and got smashed. There's his chance to show what he can do there and he blows it.

Schmidt likes players who are self critical and always looking to improves - Zebo's comments won't help his rwc cause given the competition.

Come on, that is not true at all, the space was closed down and he was literally static and only had one option - to crash it up through George North. Not one of our wingers would have done any better, with the exception of Trimble who may actually match the physicality. He would never have actually got past him though.

If you think Zebo isn't as creative as Fitzgerald I would suggest you watch more of both Leinster and Munster! Fitz may have the quicker feet but Zebo is by far the better playmaker.

Personally I think Dave Kearney is better than them both. He is the Jordan Speith of rugby. He has no one characteristic that stands out above his competition but great all rounder so the sum of his parts equals a very strong player. Very under rated.

by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:41 pm

ME-109 wrote: Even then Fitz/Payne and Kearney [and Bowe] managed to butcher a number of chances

by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:44 pm

GunsGerms wrote:

Personally I think Dave Kearney is better than them both. He is the Jordan Speith of rugby. He has no one characteristic that stands out above his competition but great all rounder so the sum of his parts equals a very strong player. Very under rated.

Guns is right again! Wink

Maybe I'm going soft in me...middling... age but I've been agreeing with Lord Dowlais too today - oh and Rodders. I don't like my agreeable self though - no edge to an agreeable fecker.

by SecretFly Fri 10 Apr 2015, 3:55 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Yeah I know it was a different scenario, but the comments such as "it was the right decision, as they won the game" or "Fitzgerald (Davies) played really well" still stand. BOD (Zebo) would also have excelled in that game. The comments being made are quite similar.

Oh they are. But the truth is that I have no doubt Zebo would have done a similar game to Fitz in that game against Scotland.... and absolutely No doubt that BOD was in the form to do the same as Davies in that final Lions game when again, the style opened up to suit him best just when he was dropped....!

I'm sure Zebo felt 'oh there you go, just when I'm dropped, we're planning to play the game that best suits me'. But I do think he did suffer somewhat in defensive duty against Wales and obviously Schmidt saw it as an opportunity to get a look at how Fitz was progessing. Like I said, a few other players besides Zebo got a few games and then were dropped like stones. And I was vocal about saying it seemed a tad unfair considering they were playing powerful stuff. But Healy and O'Brien needed blow outs to get them up to speed in a very important year. You might say Fitz needed one or two too.

by ME-109 Fri 10 Apr 2015, 4:15 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
rodders wrote:Yeah I don't accept that - He was picked because the tactics suited him - i.e. he is good in the air and has a good left boot.

Against Scotland the plan was to keep the ball in hand and Fitzgerald is more creative.

Zebo might think from the stands that he'd have scored a load of tries but the truth is that nothing he's done so far has produced evidence of that.

He has space to go round North - a very poor defender - and got smashed. There's his chance to show what he can do there and he blows it.

Schmidt likes players who are self critical and always looking to improves - Zebo's comments won't help his rwc cause given the competition.

Come on, that is not true at all, the space was closed down and he was literally static and only had one option - to crash it up through George North. Not one of our wingers would have done any better, with the exception of Trimble who may actually match the physicality. He would never have actually got past him though.

If you think Zebo isn't as creative as Fitzgerald I would suggest you watch more of both Leinster and Munster! Fitz may have the quicker feet but Zebo is by far the better playmaker.

Personally I think Dave Kearney is better than them both. He is the Jordan Speith of rugby. He has no one characteristic that stands out above his competition but great all rounder so the sum of his parts equals a very strong player. Very under rated.

Indeed if you mean getting caught by locks, falling over on his own two meters from the try line (v Ulster Pro 12 semi last year) and generally not scoring then yes he is very underrated.

by GunsGerms Fri 10 Apr 2015, 4:38 pm

If he was a crap winger he would have been shipped off to Munster years ago like Johne Murphy, Hurley, Conway, Keatly and all the other Leinster rejects that Munster rugby thrives on. He is premium grade though. Too good for the B team.

by ME-109 Fri 10 Apr 2015, 11:48 pm

by **Notch** Sun 12 Apr 2015, 10:58 pm

Todays result is the best one Joe Schmidt could have hoped for. Leinster are all set to have their season end in April if Toulon and Ulster win. Half the Irish squad with their feet up well before the end of the Pro12! Happy days lads. Home advantage for the Barbarians vs Leinster and Robbie Henshaw in Limerick, get your tickets now Very Happy

Only question is whether Sexton will be finished his season by then. Joe Schmidt is going to think very, very hard about it and then pick this team

Healy, Cronin, Ross, Toner, McCarthy, Murphy, O'Brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton/Madigan, D. Kearney, Henshaw, Fitzgerald, McFadden, R. Kearney

And your joy will turn to ashes when every one of those players retains their place for the World Cup angel

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 9:28 am

Joe Schmidt might be delighted, but the IRFU are not going to be too happy about Leinster v Barbarians being played in Limerick 2 days before a final up in Belfast.

Joe might be forced into picking a few Westies to attract a few punters. No wonder they are doing flash sales of 2 for the price of one for the Barbarians match Smile

by Nachos Jones_1 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 9:35 am

Given Leinsters poor form in the Pro-12, barely scraping through to meet Toulon and drab playing style under MOC. I do wonder what is happening there. I have been very critical of Schmidt's style with this Irish team but could it actually be more what MOC has done with the Leinster players?

Leinster used to be a very creative team and do have a team full of creative players (also a team that contains a large percentage of the Irish team) so I am really struggling to understand what has happened here.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 9:39 am

The creative players have retired (BOD & Isa Nacewa*). The leadership & brains (Leo & Jennings) have also retired or are just about to.

Leinster have no leaders - that is the big problem they have. They could do with Ruddock back.

*They are bringing him back.

by Nachos Jones_1 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 9:42 am

The leadership is an issue that will be resolved with the return of Sexton but I do believe that Leinster have gone back way too far for it to be seen as only leadership. They still have a number of creative players but their style has changed as well. Its just me thinking out loud but I do wonder if MOC has had a negative effect on the Leinster players that has been taken to the national side.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 9:52 am

Who are their creative players? Luke Fitz maybe! After that they are fairly thin on the ground. Sexton isn't particularly creative (in the way Philippe Contempomi was!). He is a very good game manager. His presence in the dressing room will help focus minds maybe.

Boss & Reddan are well past their sell-by date.

Personally I think the big difference in the Irish team of late Kidney v Schmidt is POC being back to full fitness.

Good article in the Sindo yesterday from Franno about Devin Toner and who he is partnered with.

by Nachos Jones_1 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:01 am

I would argue that Madigan is a very creative player along with Fitz but also its not just the backline that was creative, Heaslip and SOB for instance were once very creative players with excellent abilities to break the line and offload.

As I said, its just me thinking out loud and am probably wrong but it does raise a question in my mind.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:32 am

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I would argue that Madigan is a very creative player along with Fitz but also its not just the backline that was creative, Heaslip and SOB for instance were once very creative players with excellent abilities to break the line and offload.

As I said, its just me thinking out loud and am probably wrong but it does raise a question in my mind.

Madigan needs others in the backline to be on his wavelength. They just are not.

I just would not describe either Heaslip or SOB as creative (SOB has been missing for most of this year and isn't back yet to his best - and might not as injuries take their toll).

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:41 am

MOC has returned the Leinster boys to their Ladyness in two short seasons. They're all fluff and pastry now - nothing menacing in them - nothing done at pace that holds or shines - trying to pretend attack and no backbone supporting it.

The most confused and confusing team in the Pro12. Headless, directionless, motiveless. Either somebody in coaching terms done somebody very wrong in unteaching an entire squad out of their best instincts OR we have players back to an old job of trying to offload a coach they're not inspired by doing enough in gulps to suggest they could be tasty but then showing us their petticoats and blusher again to deaden the enthusiasm. Wink

Maddening team to watch... but there might be a number of reasons why.

BUT too................ no team has a right to be on top always. This season they're proving they're very much a middle ranked team of nothing special. And other sides have done the biz to up their games.

by **Notch** Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:45 am

Sin, won't the bitterness shift a few tickets? A Barbarians side with (maybe) Peter Stringer and (maybe) Donncha O'Callaghan beating a Leinster team in green? Come on, there's got to be a market for that.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Given Leinsters poor form in the Pro-12, barely scraping through to meet Toulon and drab playing style under MOC. I do wonder what is happening there. I have been very critical of Schmidt's style with this Irish team but could it actually be more what MOC has done with the Leinster players?

Leinster used to be a very creative team and do have a team full of creative players (also a team that contains a large percentage of the Irish team) so I am really struggling to understand what has happened here.

Whatever you think of Ireland and Schmidt, you look at that possible all-Leinster Ireland team I posted (plus Te'o, Gopperth, D'Arcy and Kirchner) and think- how the hell can he be doing this badly with that group. It's like Moyes at Man Utd. If you're not a fan of the boys in blue, enjoy it because they can only be this bad for so long before the natural order of things is restored.

Ulster have ended the last four seasons losing to Leinster in semi-finals or finals so I'm not going to be weeping any tears myself i that run comes to an end.

by Mickado Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:46 am

SecretFly wrote:MOC has returned the Leinster boys to their Ladyness in two short seasons. They're all fluff and pastry now - nothing menacing in them - nothing done at pace that holds or shines - trying to pretend attack and no backbone supporting it.

The most confused and confusing team in the Pro12. Headless, directionless, motiveless. Either somebody in coaching terms done somebody very wrong in unteaching an entire squad out of their best instincts OR we have players back to an old job of trying to offload a coach they're not inspired by doing enough in gulps to suggest they could be tasty but then showing us their petticoats and blusher again to deaden the enthusiasm.

Maddening team to watch... but there might be a number of reasons why.

BUT too................ no team has a right to be on top always. This season they're proving they're very much a middle ranked team of nothing special. And other sides have done the biz to up their games.

True that, there's nothing worse than when a fanbase think they have a divine right to be constantly winning. We're still in with a shout at the biggest prize of all, if we don't win that our season is over. The first baron one for 5 years, there's not many teams could say that. We'll be back!

by Nachos Jones_1 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:49 am

I am not saying the Leinster has a right to be on top all the time. My question was, could MOC be having a negative effect on the Leinster players that may also be affecting their form on the International stage?

by **Notch** Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:51 am

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I am not saying the Leinster has a right to be on top all the time. My question was, could MOC be having a negative effect on the Leinster players that may also be affecting their form on the International stage?

Well clearly he is having a negative effect on them and the alignment of the whole Leinster team, but they generally look like different players when they change their shirt colour to green. I think only Kearney and D'Arcy haven't delivered this year for Ireland.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:52 am

I'd say that Schmidt was too controlling. Leinster are now unable to function without the threatened scalding on a Monday morning at the infamous video reviews.

by **rodders** Mon 13 Apr 2015, 10:57 am

Gees have to eat my words on Strings and Reddan.

Stringer was decent enough for bath whereas Reddan looked clueless in a clueless Leinster side against Dragons.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:04 am

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I am not saying the Leinster has a right to be on top all the time. My question was, could MOC be having a negative effect on the Leinster players that may also be affecting their form on the International stage?

Could be. Very possible. But other Provinces are showing more cut and thrust, so if Schmidt believed MOC was deadening the edge of his Internationals then I think he'd move on if he needed players with real edge and found Leinster players wanting. He's an ambitious coach - he wants wins for his own sake as much as for the team's sake.

So Leinster are a big mystery. There are a number of reasons why they might be godawful this season. Some of those reasons might involved the one I hinted at.... players losing belief in MOC ideas and playing the kind of stuff that might get a coach a sack (don't tell me it doesn't happen folks, it do Wink

)
- but also it could involve the very truth that Leinster have a big contingent of Internationals in a WC year. They're likely to retain that big number despite how Leinster might sink in this season. They might be holding in and holding back to keep themselves fresh and to keep their Best form delayed as long as possible. MOC ain't going to be too pleased about that if there is a degree of that happening, but there you go, players are people and they know how much their bodies are capable of in a calendar year.

So either MOC has a big share of the blame or he's just an unfortunate feck who turned up at the wrong party two years out from the biggest show in town - that ever approaching WC.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:07 am

Sin é wrote:I'd say that Schmidt was too controlling. Leinster are now unable to function without the threatened scalding on a Monday morning at the infamous video reviews.

Shouldn't that be the norm in modern coaching? Perhaps Leinster could simply have done with more video reviews of the opposition to prepare them better for what's coming. MOC has always showed a mild contempt for the quality of Pro12 and the opposition. He arrived at Leinster not for Pro12 but to enhance or grow his reputation at European level. Neither worked out too well so far. One last shot at it for him coming.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:13 am

Its not the review of the opposition that is needed - its the monday morning review of themselves and the the resulting scalding to keep them on their toes is lacking.

by ME-109 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:37 am

In fairness to MOC with so many of the squad in the intl set up apparently he has had them only 30% of the time in the Pro 12 that cant help.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:41 am

Sin é wrote:Its not the review of the opposition that is needed - its the monday morning review of themselves and the the resulting scalding to keep them on their toes is lacking.

It's both, Sin. No either/or in it. And it seems MOC does neither well enough. Or maybe he does it all and the players still don't care what he says.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 11:48 am

Anyway, Gopperth showed enough to prove he'd have been a different prospect had he gotten the coach he signed up for (Schmidt) rather than the one he got.
And Ben Te'o looks like he would have had an absolute ball playing with the older version of Leinster.

We'll see what the new season brings.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 13 Apr 2015, 2:35 pm

Leinster are eerily similar to Ireland under Kidney.Poor performances with the (very) occasional big win to paper over the cracks,the potential of the players is being wasted and we're just waiting until the coaches contract is up before we can hopefully get someone decent in.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 2:43 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Leinster are eerily similar to Ireland under Kidney.Poor performances with the (very) occasional big win to paper over the cracks,the potential of the players is being wasted and we're just waiting until the coaches contract is up before we can hopefully get someone decent in.

So 12 straight wins in a calendar year is occassional Erm

You do have high standards!

Leinster have some very good forwards, but the backs division is very, very average. Maybe the reason the forwards look good is because Schmidt has turned all the backs into wantobe flankers. Heck, he even tried to turn Murphy into a centre.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 2:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:Leinster are eerily similar to Ireland under Kidney.Poor performances with the (very) occasional big win to paper over the cracks,the potential of the players is being wasted and we're just waiting until the coaches contract is up before we can hopefully get someone decent in.

So 12 straight wins in a calendar year is occassional

Ireland?

by kunu Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:Leinster are eerily similar to Ireland under Kidney.Poor performances with the (very) occasional big win to paper over the cracks,the potential of the players is being wasted and we're just waiting until the coaches contract is up before we can hopefully get someone decent in.

So 12 straight wins in a calendar year is occassional

In Kidney's final 2 years we won 42% of our games. He had 1 great year which was led by great players, and was found out after that- his overall record is 51% wins. MOC reminds me of Kidney also - both rely too much on quick ball, and rely too much on boshers - MOC buying Teo makes that clear enough I think. This doesn't work with us I beleive, because we aren't a nation of big fellas. Then we get the one off games when we dominate the breakdown and outpace teams, like leinster Northampton or ireland england when we stopped their slam. Once we don't get quick ball we play clueless, headless chicken rugby. Neither coach is technical enough to get the best out of skilled, but not massive, Irish players.

by ME-109 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 5:48 pm

Bod . Leo. Nacewa. Sexton. Thorn. Jennings and Darcy near the end.

by Sin é Mon 13 Apr 2015, 6:40 pm

kunu wrote:
Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:Leinster are eerily similar to Ireland under Kidney.Poor performances with the (very) occasional big win to paper over the cracks,the potential of the players is being wasted and we're just waiting until the coaches contract is up before we can hopefully get someone decent in.

So 12 straight wins in a calendar year is occassional

In Kidney's final 2 years we won 42% of our games. He had 1 great year which was led by great players, and was found out after that- his overall record is 51% wins. MOC reminds me of Kidney also - both rely too much on quick ball, and rely too much on boshers - MOC buying Teo makes that clear enough I think. This doesn't work with us I beleive, because we aren't a nation of big fellas. Then we get the one off games when we dominate the breakdown and outpace teams, like leinster Northampton or ireland england when we stopped their slam. Once we don't get quick ball we play clueless, headless chicken rugby. Neither coach is technical enough to get the best out of skilled, but not massive, Irish players.

Early days yet for Schmidt. Kidney had a very good record up to and including the Rugby World Cup. It will be interesting to see how Schmidt copes when POC retires and injury etc. eventually gets to SOB & Heaslip. We'll see then how quickly the ball is delivered. Have you watched Ireland play under Schmidt. He has turned everyone in the beam into a backrower to deliver quicky ball and bash their way over the line. Schmidt's Ireland team is not allowed pass or offload - just resource rucks and kick and chase.

by SecretFly Mon 13 Apr 2015, 6:49 pm

Sin é wrote: Schmidt's Ireland team is not allowed pass or offload - just resource rucks and kick and chase.

Why possibly? Do you ever wonder why it seems to be such a clear cut ruling? There must be a reason - especially when winning; reason then presumes that there should be a reason.

by FecklessRogue Mon 13 Apr 2015, 7:57 pm

MOC took on a bit of a poisoned chalice at Leinster. They were never gonna match the Schmidt years after losing the spine of the team. But there's one thing that annoys me about him and makes me think he's not cut out for running an Irish team. He seems to think missing international players is an excuse for losing. He reckons that when he only has the young lads it's not his fault if they lose. He thinks he needs to sign fully formed top class players to have a chance. He doesn't quite get that it's his job to COACH the young lads to be the next top class internationals. That bit seems to have gone over his head.

by **rodders** Tue 14 Apr 2015, 9:57 am

FecklessRogue wrote:MOC took on a bit of a poisoned chalice at Leinster. They were never gonna match the Schmidt years after losing the spine of the team. But there's one thing that annoys me about him and makes me think he's not cut out for running an Irish team. He seems to think missing international players is an excuse for losing. He reckons that when he only has the young lads it's not his fault if they lose. He thinks he needs to sign fully formed top class players to have a chance. He doesn't quite get that it's his job to COACH the young lads to be the next top class internationals. That bit seems to have gone over his head.

Good post.

One thing though that is bizarre is the fact that it's Leinsters traditional strength of backplay and attacklng ability that has deserted them - ironically the scrum and forward play is maybe stronger than ever.

It's hard to believe that this is the same side that one back to back European cups and could at one point open defences at will.

I think there have been a few scapegoats, unfairly like MOC, Gopperth - but the manner of Leinster's performances are bizarre for such an experienced side.

In some ways their results, as poor as they are, actually flatter them.

by GunsGerms Tue 14 Apr 2015, 10:02 am

I dont think they are scapegoats at all. Gopperth came from Newcastle. He was average then he is still really average now. Why is he being picked?

MOC came from Leicester and hadnt exactly done much at Leicester and the manner of which Leinster and more importantly some Leinster players have regressed under him suggests is isnt up to the task at all.

by **rodders** Tue 14 Apr 2015, 10:13 am

GunsGerms wrote:I dont think they are scapegoats at all. Gopperth came from Newcastle. He was average then he is still really average now. Why is he being picked?

MOC came from Leicester and hadnt exactly done much at Leicester and the manner of which Leinster and more importantly some Leinster players have regressed under him suggests is isnt up to the task at all.

Well because Gopperth is the best fly-half Leinster have - irrespective of the fact that he's not an adequate replacement for Sexton. The reality is that Madigan has not developed and has had a poor season compared to last year.

It was Schmidt who signed Gopperth so you can't blame O'Connor for Leinster's poor options at 10.

by SecretFly Tue 14 Apr 2015, 10:40 am

Schmidt knew what he wanted from Gopperth - and Gopperth showed enough in the beginning and in small cameos still that he would have been exactly what Schmidt had wanted had Schmidt stayed.

MOC doesn't know what to do with any of the players because he's simply not good enough at what he does. He can't join the two - backs and forwards. It's been a mess - a lightweight mess. But he's not alone. Cullen walked off the pitch into a coaching role too and perhaps should have been let find his coaching feet abroad like O'Gara who admitted he had so much to learn and re-learn as a coach rather than a player.

The whole quick recruitment fill-in job for Schmidt was done badly and Leinster are paying the price. They're clinging on on memory. And if they can effect a win against Toulon (unlikely but still possible) then it'll be the players getting themselves in a mood to do as much right as they can under the rudderless conditions.

If they do win, or even if they put up a bloody good fight (with Barnes on it'll need to be!! Wink

), but if they can then it'll prove beyond all doubt that Leinster is and always has been a player led camp - coaches have been good sometimes but it's the players who have knuckled down and given some of those coaches their reputations.

So I'd love for a fairytale to happen and for Toulon's big tanks to be derailed by the Ladyboys doing it for themselves.

And then find a bundle of new coaches - with real drive and determination.

by GunsGerms Tue 14 Apr 2015, 11:09 am

rodders wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I dont think they are scapegoats at all. Gopperth came from Newcastle. He was average then he is still really average now. Why is he being picked?

MOC came from Leicester and hadnt exactly done much at Leicester and the manner of which Leinster and more importantly some Leinster players have regressed under him suggests is isnt up to the task at all.

Well because Gopperth is the best fly-half Leinster have - irrespective of the fact that he's not an adequate replacement for Sexton. The reality is that Madigan has not developed and has had a poor season compared to last year.

It was Schmidt who signed Gopperth so you can't blame O'Connor for Leinster's poor options at 10.

No Madigan is easily a better OH. A better coach and he would flourish again. So what if Schmidt signed Gopperth. If Schmidt was still coach Madigan would be number 1 and would have continued his upward trajectory. MOC hasnt a bog when it comes to backs which is why we play 10 man Jimmy Gopperth rugby.

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