Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

The Saint wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's funny how often the rotation debate comes up. Most, if not everyone on here sees that the players play too many games as it is and yet STILL we have people complain about players being rotated? Put yourself in their boots for a minute. If your an Irish international your still playing over 30 games a season even if they don't travel over to RP.

The one thing the Pro12 could do however is change the structure of the season so we don't have games on the 6n weekends.

The AP plays during the 6N too

Yes, but the AP has 12 bloody teams to pick one International squad from.  The rest of us have only four or two.  It's tough.  And AP and Top14 can crow all they like about 'meritocracy' but they never like to factor in the toughness of trying to compete against these big boys on so many different levels and yet be expected to maintain 'competitiveness'

The AP have players from Wales, Scotland and Italy away during the 6Ns too not to mention players from other nations during the AIs so no its not 12 teams filling one squad they fill a number of squads.

Also Wales have players playing across 3 leagues in their squad, about a third, so the regions aren't as hard hit during the international windows as the Irish

Ospreys and Scarlets would certainly disagree with you.

Both of whom had 8 players each in the Welsh 6N squad which is the same as Ulster in the Ireland squad which is less than Munsters 10 and Leinsters 20

Ospreys - Smith, Jarvis, Baldwin, AWJ, King, Lydiate, Tipuric, Baker, Webb, Biggar, Walker
Scarlets - RH Jones, Owens, Phillips, Lee, Ball, Davies, Priestland, S. Williams, L. Williams
Those are the players those two teams are set to regularly lose to team Wales as of autumn 2014. Not all were available during the 6 Nations through injury.

Your point being? If those that were injured were picked it means someone else wouldn't have been that's why I went with those that were actually picked

In all that's 20 players that they'll regularly lose the same amount that Leinster actually lost for periods during the 6N

Two new men come to live in a town. Man N and Man P. They meet a wise man..

Man N: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: What are they like in the town you're from?
Man N: They're ignorant, rude, lazy and untrustworthy.
Wise man: The people here are ignorant, rude, lazy and untrustworthy

Man P: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: What are they like in the town you came from?
Man P: They're nice, joyful, helpful, trustworthy people.
Wise man: The people here are nice, joyful, helpful, trustworthy people.

In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

I cannot see that happening, it generates far too much money.

Chunky Norwich wrote:In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Not true

Chunky Norwich wrote:In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Isn't the 4th international mainly a fundraiser for the Regions?

They will probably try and add on a 5th if that is the case

profitius wrote:Two new men come to live in a town. Man N and Man P. They meet a wise man..

Man N: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: What are they like in the town you're from?
Man N: They're ignorant, rude, lazy and untrustworthy.
Wise man: The people here are ignorant, rude, lazy and untrustworthy

Man P: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: What are they like in the town you came from?
Man P: They're nice, joyful, helpful, trustworthy people.
Wise man: The people here are nice, joyful, helpful, trustworthy people.

Two new men come to live in a town. Man N and Man P. They meet a wise man..

Man N: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: What are they like in the town you're from?
Man N: They're ignorant, rude, lazy and untrustworthy.
Wise man: If you're one of them, you ain't welcome here. F**k off.

Man P: Tell me what the people are like in this town.
Wise man: Another gobshyte. What are they like in the town you came from?
Man P: They're nice, joyful, helpful, trustworthy people.
Wise man: Well what the f**k are you doing here? Go back and live in your nice town and stop wandering around asking wandering wise men stupid f**king questions!
Man P: So you're from N's town then?

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Isn't the 4th international mainly a fundraiser for the Regions?

They will probably try and add on a 5th if that is the case

Thought it was an ARU/WRU fundraiser.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

I cannot see that happening, it generates far too much money.

Fouroux though?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Isn't the 4th international mainly a fundraiser for the Regions?

They will probably try and add on a 5th if that is the case

Thought it was an ARU/WRU fundraiser.

According to the Guardian, the regions got £100,000 each to release players for a 4th autumn international.

Oh dear, oh dear.... money for moans?

Nice.

Sin é wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:In the Autumn, The Scarlets were deprived of additional players like Rob Evans, who didn't even get a cap. Whilst they had to play Zebre and Connacht who had a full team out.

This is largely due to the extra 4th international that hopefully will be doomed now we are rid of that scumbag Roger Lewis.

Isn't the 4th international mainly a fundraiser for the Regions?

They will probably try and add on a 5th if that is the case

Thought it was an ARU/WRU fundraiser.

According to the Guardian, the regions got £100,000 each to release players for a 4th autumn international.

True and £750,000-ish for the oppo plus the rest to Dodger.
Not great prep for Europe though. Been a right pain in the arse imo. Get rid I say.

I think one of the major issues with Pro12 and rugby in general is that there are to many games. I think a lot of time they seem to be keen to model themselves on the football equivalent. In truth though when you think about Rugby it couldn't be further apart from Football. For starters its a contact sport, which means the recovery time after matches are longer. In my opinion teams should be playing matches every 2 weeks. It serves 2 purposes:

1. Limits the amount games available a season thus not oversaturating it. It also gives players a much better chance of recovery thus limiting injuries and allowing the best players to be available more. I believe this would increase attendances as the wait for fans per match would be longer and create a better buzz from match to match similar to the NFL.

2. It gives the Regions, Provinces and Clubs far more time to plan and prepare. A lot of the time only so much training work can be done at the current time given our players tend to spend time in recovery directly after a match and the time left does not leave enough time to prepare properly for the next opposition. It my opinion this would enhance the rugby quality we would see but again its just my view. That said Hammett also eluded to the amount of games at regional level being far to high to even allow it to grow to S15 standard.

I concede this is just wishful thinking as there is no way commercial opportunities (TV deals) would allow less rugby as the status quo for viewing each week would be less frequent. I also don't believe at club/regional level they believe the revenue they lose from hosting as many matches as possible would be served by this. But in my view this change would allow for a far better spectacle.

That said here are some of my views in terms of what should be attainable to improve the league:

1. Get professional Refs as has been eluded to in this thread already. Nigel Owens should be made head official of the Pro 12 and start a coaching program for Refs as well as assess them. If we can increase the consistency of our refs to make sure we get a fast, exciting, free flowing product, I believe fans will return to watching Pro 12 rugby.

2. Allow a better schedule between the away and home legs. For example Dragons played Leinster both side of the second half of the season. It should be better spread so with 22 fixtures if say the Ospreys played Munster in Round 1 they should automatically be removed for the schedule until the second half of the season. I quite like the mixed up format but at least keep the games in 2 parts of the season. That will allow for a more evenly distributed fixture list.

3. I believe a stay in the Pro 12 policy should now be adopted by all the participating teams for international call ups. Now this one is maybe a little stretch especially for Italy and Scotland but I would like to see this come in. Now I wouldn't adopt a format that necessarily implies they have to stay in their respective countries but if they play for any team within the Pro 12 they can still be selected. For example if say Glasgow had to many scrum halves on their books they could allow one to move to say Ulster for example and still select him for internationally duty. It would create much better rosters in my opinion as teams would potentially move between countries without leaving the Pro 12 completely. I appreciate this one is out there a bit.

4. I would introduce similar rules to the league for all participating teams similar to the Aviva. Limit amount of non-eu match day squads and so forth. That way all participating teams would largely have similar scope in terms of development as a team couldn't field 15 former all blacks for example. I probably would leave salary caps to be determined by the varies nations who want to manage their own funding for their various teams (Ireland and Scotland in particular).

Hopefully this is a contribution to this thread.

Oh part of the reason for number 4 was partly to give our South African, New Zealand, Australian counterparts from poaching their players. Given we all seem to be in the same boat with them in terms of the threat to largely the Top 14 and in future the Aviva, it seems only the right thing to do to limit the imports we bring in if only for the good of the game globally. I also believe that if Scottish, Irish, Welsh & Italians moved freely in the Pro 12 it would have more than enough talent within the league without the need to really recruit heavily outside of these countries. That said I appreciate this might not be a popular viewpoint to begin with.

Is this still thundering on? Still the same couple of deluded folk banging on?

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye"

Sin é wrote:LD -

35 year old Paul O'Connell has made 6 starts in the Pro12 this season.
35 year old Donnacha O'Callaghan has had 11 starts.
29 year old AW Jones has made only 8 starts for the Ospreys.

People in glasshouses should not be throwing stones.

Sin, AWJ missed the first game of the season against Treviso, it was well documented on here at the time that he didn't want to miss that game, he was on the bench for both our games against Zebre, the second of which was the weekend after the conclusion of the 6N, HE STARTED every other game he was available for the Ospreys in the Pro 12, don't forget Wales take their players into camp 13 days before both the AI and 6N and we also play the 4th international in the Autumn, he therefore played 10 out of 11 matches and IIRC he played every minute of every 6N match, I doubt your 2 will match that effort, if they did, well done to them.

I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

Welshmushroom talks a good deal of sense.  But he's right that sense will not be allowed interfere with money making progress from the suits that control the marketing of rugby as distinct from the people that control the practicality of what goes on on the field.

I like the idea of spreading players out through Pro12 rather than into the other competing leagues - after all, this is a business world, we keep being reminded of that cold hard fact; and these two other Leagues (AP and Top 14) ARE competitors - Competitors for players, for coaches and for audiences and TV broadcasting money.  So treat them as the rivals they are and yes, find methods to encourage players within the Pro12 League to at least stay within the League if they want to shift around and find a better deal.

That would be tough too because you can't change the fact that most money will be with AP and Top14 but I've often wondered why no Welsh players, for example, who had claimed desires to win European titles, ever came west to Irish Provinces rather than into England or France.  Tommy Bowe did his time in Wales but that cross over between Pro12 sides seems minimal to me.

I would still like to limit numbers of migrants, even from each other, but it would be a much more ideal objective to give incentives to certain players to move within the League if they felt the compulsion to move from their initial Province/Region/Club.

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

I like that. Sort of assumes that us Welsh are united and all that. Fat chance.

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

The Welsh, as you call it, have actually won the league a few times though. They bring more internationals to it and I'm willing to bet more cash(?). So perhaps it would actually be better off without the wooden spoon brigade. Anglo-Welsh and Irish league for the win.

marty2086 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It's funny how often the rotation debate comes up. Most, if not everyone on here sees that the players play too many games as it is and yet STILL we have people complain about players being rotated? Put yourself in their boots for a minute. If your an Irish international your still playing over 30 games a season even if they don't travel over to RP.

The one thing the Pro12 could do however is change the structure of the season so we don't have games on the 6n weekends.

The AP plays during the 6N too

Yes, but the AP has 12 bloody teams to pick one International squad from.  The rest of us have only four or two.  It's tough.  And AP and Top14 can crow all they like about 'meritocracy' but they never like to factor in the toughness of trying to compete against these big boys on so many different levels and yet be expected to maintain 'competitiveness'

The AP have players from Wales, Scotland and Italy away during the 6Ns too not to mention players from other nations during the AIs so no its not 12 teams filling one squad they fill a number of squads.

Also Wales have players playing across 3 leagues in their squad, about a third, so the regions aren't as hard hit during the international windows as the Irish

Ospreys and Scarlets would certainly disagree with you.

Both of whom had 8 players each in the Welsh 6N squad which is the same as Ulster in the Ireland squad which is less than Munsters 10 and Leinsters 20

Ospreys - Smith, Jarvis, Baldwin, AWJ, King, Lydiate, Tipuric, Baker, Webb, Biggar, Walker
Scarlets - RH Jones, Owens, Phillips, Lee, Ball, Davies, Priestland, S. Williams, L. Williams
Those are the players those two teams are set to regularly lose to team Wales as of autumn 2014. Not all were available during the 6 Nations through injury.

Your point being? If those that were injured were picked it means someone else wouldn't have been that's why I went with those that were actually picked

In all that's 20 players that they'll regularly lose the same amount that Leinster actually lost for periods during the 6N

My point being exactly the same as what it was in the beginning, that Scarlets and Ospreys would disagree with you. They lose the majority of their team and we aren't known for having great strength in depth in the regional teams. PS, I forgot Rob Evans from the Scarlets list.

Good and bad news for Leinster I guess - don't they get more cash for having more Irish players? Didn't they get players released back to them during the 6 Nations? I'd like our teams to actually be run more like Leinster rugby, but it's not going to happen for a long time.

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

And I am rapidly reaching the conclusion on here that everybody blames the Welsh for everything, it's only us Welsh who moan about referees, it's only the Welsh players who do not respect the referees, it's only the Welsh fans who boo the kickers, and it's all the Welsh fans fault that the Pro12 does not get any credibility because of our squabbling.

God forbid it could be more than one factor, and that every union involved looks after themselves before they look after the Pro12. Hears a novel thought, why don't the Scottish teams try producing some home grown talent rather than buying in foreign time serving mercs, perhaps that will make the league more marketable, if we had a Celtic and Italian league with actual Scottish players.

Hardly surprising the pro 12 is struggling when European rugby was recently restructured completely with shafting the smaller pro 12 teams seemingly a priority of the restructure.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

And I am rapidly reaching the conclusion on here that everybody blames the Welsh for everything, it's only us Welsh who moan about referees, it's only the Welsh players who do not respect the referees, it's only the Welsh fans who boo the kickers, and it's all the Welsh fans fault that the Pro12 does not get any credibility because of our squabbling.

God forbid it could be more than one factor, and that every union involved looks after themselves before they look after the Pro12. Hears a novel thought, why don't the Scottish teams try producing some home grown talent rather than buying in foreign time serving mercs, perhaps that will make the league more marketable, if we had a Celtic and Italian league with actual Scottish players.

That horse isn't going get any deader mate. Lots of other posters have shown that the Edinburgh and Glasgow teams have less than a handful of Non Scottish qualified players. I'm not sure what anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

But hey, lets not allow facts to get in the way of your trolling attempts....

wayne wrote:

Sin é wrote:LD -

35 year old Paul O'Connell has made 6 starts in the Pro12 this season.
35 year old Donnacha O'Callaghan has had 11 starts.
29 year old AW Jones has made only 8 starts for the Ospreys.

People in glasshouses should not be throwing stones.

Sin, AWJ missed the first game of the season against Treviso, it was well documented on here at the time that he didn't want to miss that game, he was on the bench for both our games against Zebre, the second of which was the weekend after the conclusion of the 6N, HE STARTED every other game he was available for the Ospreys in the Pro 12, don't forget Wales take their players into camp 13 days before both the AI and 6N and we also play the 4th international in the Autumn, he therefore played 10 out of 11 matches and IIRC he played every minute of every 6N match, I doubt your 2 will match that effort, if they did, well done to them.

Wayne, AWJ played 71 minutes (between international & Provincial/Regional rugby) more than POC.

Not bad, considering POC is a 35 year old who actually did play every minute of the 6Ns (9 minutes more than AWJ).

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

They may have a point. I read that the film about Alfie's life is now being set in Ireland (changing Alfie to Irish to appeal to the American audience who have never heard of rugby or Wales).

GunsGerms wrote:Hardly surprising the pro 12 is struggling when European rugby was recently restructured completely with shafting the smaller pro 12 teams seemingly a priority of the restructure.

Oh Guns, don't be mentioning one of the very goals behind the New European Way - to shaft the Pro12. It's not nice to all our friends.

No, we can't be unkind to the friendly folk across the way who hand out scraps of 'incentive' (more moneee!) whilst wishing the Pro12 and all its teams into a backwater of insignificance, like in the lovely old days when Heineken started out first.

No don't suggest that two Rival Leagues constructed a European contest designed to crumble the Third League into dust and leave the remnants (some nice players and coaches) scarpering over to them to keep meaningful careers going.

That's the design goals of this new Europe - and some Nations that fought against it didn't have a whole lot of help from their even closer friends who wanted to dash over even more quickly and kill off the Pro12 even before the New Europe began!  What a bunch of lovely non-back-stabbing friends we have all through Europe - the kinda ones you have to never take your eye off and always keep your back to the wall with.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That horse isn't going get any deader mate. Lots of other posters have shown that the Edinburgh and Glasgow teams have less than a handful of Non Scottish qualified players. I'm not sure what anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

But hey, lets not allow facts to get in the way of your trolling attempts....

First off, please get your facts right, they might be SQ players but a massive chunk of those players are NOT Scottish, they are time serving players, why is it that on here nobody is willing to take responsibility for any of their faults ? I am fed up of people getting on their high horse when it concerns the Welsh.

Secondly, I do not come on here to TROLL, you just say that to hide behind you unions inadequacies. I admit that the in-fighting in Wales has not helped our league, but the worst run union in top tier rugby (SRU) does not do anything to help our league either, people should look in house before they come on here laying blame for everything on the doorstep of the Welsh.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

And I am rapidly reaching the conclusion on here that everybody blames the Welsh for everything, it's only us Welsh who moan about referees, it's only the Welsh players who do not respect the referees, it's only the Welsh fans who boo the kickers, and it's all the Welsh fans fault that the Pro12 does not get any credibility because of our squabbling.

Don't feed the troll....

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:That horse isn't going get any deader mate. Lots of other posters have shown that the Edinburgh and Glasgow teams have less than a handful of Non Scottish qualified players. I'm not sure what anyone can say to convince you otherwise.

But hey, lets not allow facts to get in the way of your trolling attempts....

First off, please get your facts right, they might be SQ players but a massive chunk of those players are NOT Scottish, they are time serving players, why is it that on here nobody is willing to take responsibility for any of their faults ? I am fed up of people getting on their high horse when it concerns the Welsh.

Secondly, I do not come on here to TROLL, you just say that to hide behind you unions inadequacies. I admit that the in-fighting in Wales has not helped our league, but the worst run union in top tier rugby (SRU) does not do anything to help our league either, people should look in house before they come on here laying blame for everything on the doorstep of the Welsh.

So you post comments with no grounding in reality, with no facts to back up your comments and claim that I am hiding behind my country's rugby union inadequacies?

Well that has cleared everything up for me!!!  

Also what have I blamed the Welsh for?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Also what have I blamed the Welsh for?

Not you in particular RR. I am sorry if it has come across that way, but on this thread the general consensus seems to be that the Pro12 cannot maximise it's credibility because of the in-fighting here in Wales, I admit that what has gone on here has not helped, but you cannot apportion ALL blame because of Wales.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Hardly surprising the pro 12 is struggling when European rugby was recently restructured completely with shafting the smaller pro 12 teams seemingly a priority of the restructure.

Oh Guns, don't be mentioning one of the very goals behind the New European Way - to shaft the Pro12.  It's not nice to all our friends.

No, we can't be unkind to the friendly folk across the way who hand out scraps of 'incentive' (more moneee!) whilst wishing the Pro12 and all its teams into a backwater of insignificance, like in the lovely old days when Heineken started out first.

No don't suggest that two Rival Leagues constructed a European contest designed to crumble the Third League into dust and leave the remnants (some nice players and coaches) scarpering over to them to keep meaningful careers going.

That's the design goals of this new Europe - and some Nations that fought against it didn't have a whole lot of help from their even closer friends who wanted to dash over even more quickly and kill off the Pro12 even before the New Europe began!     What a bunch of lovely non-back-stabbing friends we have all through Europe - the kinda ones you have to never take your eye off and always keep your back to the wall with.

Has the new sponsorless European rugby tournament been an improvement on the Heineken cup?

Absolutely not. Its soulless.

GunsGerms wrote:

Has the new sponsorless European rugby tournament been an improvement on the Heineken cup?

Absolutely not. Its soulless.

It's still sponsored by heineken. The matches I've been to have been far from soulless.

LordDowlais wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Also what have I blamed the Welsh for?

Not you in particular RR. I am sorry if it has come across that way, but on this thread the general consensus seems to be that the Pro12 cannot maximise it's credibility because of the in-fighting here in Wales, I admit that what has gone on here has not helped, but you cannot apportion ALL blame because of Wales.

Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor? how much credibility do you think the league had in those negotiations with that hanging over them

The problem is that the regions want everyone else to make up for their shortcomings, its a recurring theme

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Has the new sponsorless European rugby tournament been an improvement on the Heineken cup?

Absolutely not. Its soulless.

It's still sponsored by heineken. The matches I've been to have been far from soulless.

Well Clermont/Saints was an Obliteration - a tar and feathering - but we'll ignore that one that involved Top AP side against 2nd Top14 side.

What's that got to do with being souless?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Has the new sponsorless European rugby tournament been an improvement on the Heineken cup?

Absolutely not. Its soulless.

It's still sponsored by heineken. The matches I've been to have been far from soulless.

Well Clermont/Saints was an Obliteration - a tar and feathering - but we'll ignore that one that involved Top AP side against 2nd Top14 side.

And the stade Marcel Michelin was rocking for 80 minutes.

You're just having a pop at the competition because you didn't get your blazerific way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's that got to do with being souless?

Only one soul involved in a two soul game.

The same might happen at the weekend between Leinster and Toulon. If Cricket games are now to be considered great rugby and soulful stuff simply because the marketing for the new product demands it then yep, the new product is a con.

So the H Cup was also souless then as there were plenty of one sided games?

And the AP is souless as Northampton were also beaten up by Exeter?

Or maybe it's nothing to do with souls at all?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Has the new sponsorless European rugby tournament been an improvement on the Heineken cup?

Absolutely not. Its soulless.

It's still sponsored by heineken. The matches I've been to have been far from soulless.

Well Clermont/Saints was an Obliteration - a tar and feathering - but we'll ignore that one that involved Top AP side against 2nd Top14 side.

And the stade Marcel Michelin was rocking for 80 minutes.

You're just having a pop at the competition because you didn't get your blazerific way.

Will you give me a break Chunky.  Rewriting history?  

The old HC was 'crap' because teams that 'didn't deserve' to be in it were getting into it and getting cricket scores put on them - too little meritocracy???  Wasn't that the deal?  

We had a game with no competitiveness a few weeks ago and it's a classic because the home side cheered loudly???

Christ you certainly spin'em

Just calling it as I see it. If there are problems and the home European games of Leinster, Munster, Ulster appear soulless, then perhaps those crowds have atmosphere issues. Because the ones I've been to have been great. Win or lose.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the H Cup was also souless then as there were plenty of one sided games?

And the AP is souless as Northampton were also beaten up by Exeter?

Or maybe it's nothing to do with souls at all?

Well, the seeding isn't working out too well when you get 3 of the previous year's semi finalists (for 2 years running) in the same group!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the H Cup was also souless then as there were plenty of one sided games?

And the AP is souless as Northampton were also beaten up by Exeter?

Or maybe it's nothing to do with souls at all?

It's you guys over there in AP and Top14 land that were talking about such results as being the things you wanted gone from a class, highly professional, equally competitive, meritocratic competition. You guys wanted an end to crappy one sided games - that was the selling point of the New Way.

It's working out good so far. Leinster will be crucified this weekend and it'll be talked up as fantastic stuff because the home crowd lost buckets of spittle from cheering so much.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just calling it as I see it. If there are problems and the home European games of Leinster, Munster, Ulster appear soulless, then perhaps those crowds have atmosphere issues. Because the ones I've been to have been great. Win or lose.

Still Spinning Chunky. Clermont/Saints was a rout. 'Meritocracy' at work. The end of embarrassment games. The New Way

SecretFly wrote:

It's working out good so far.  Leinster will be crucified this weekend

Aaaaaah it's because the Irish aren't dominating anymore. I geddit.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just calling it as I see it. If there are problems and the home European games of Leinster, Munster, Ulster appear soulless, then perhaps those crowds have atmosphere issues. Because the ones I've been to have been great. Win or lose.

Still Spinning Chunky.  Clermont/Saints was a rout.  'Meritocracy' at work.  The end of embarrassment games. The New Way

And the competition is soulless because of this game?

No Fly, you're the one talking about a souless comp not me. I did and do want to see a comp of high class teams and not rubbish ones. It's supposed to be the premier comp so this makes sense to me.

If you mean competitive say that, souls haven't got anything to do with it.

marty2086 wrote:Who was it that threatened to walk out on the Pro12 when the league were trying to negotiate a new sponsor? how much credibility do you think the league had in those negotiations with that hanging over them

The problem is that the regions want everyone else to make up for their shortcomings, its a recurring theme

Yes, we know what we are to be blamed for, but instead of finger pointing perhaps you should look at how the Irish provinces/IRFU have treated the league since it's inception, again, more Welsh blaming on here before you look at your own faults.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

It's working out good so far.  Leinster will be crucified this weekend

Aaaaaah it's because the Irish aren't dominating anymore. I geddit.

I get it that you love the idea, Chunky  Oh you can't keep the saliva from dribbling at the thought..... but we'll see how the only surviving crap Pro12 side manages against the Mighty Toulon.