Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

propdavid_london wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He was already on his "last chance" before he was banned for elbow at christmas.
If Lancasters word and authority means anything then he wont be going to the world cup. If his pragmatism and desire to win the thing does, he will. Either way its going to be both the right and wrong thing to do.

To be fair on Hartley a lot of folk do see this as a technically hes guilty but is that what they really intended to punish sort of thing. Theres a lot more vicious strikes that happen quite regularly and dont even get reported.  

In terms of being a repeat offender and thugs hes nothing on  Haluafia.

I agree Gooseberry - I dont think SL has much of a choice in this matter.  There was a public announcement saying that Hartley was on his last chance and now this happens.  
In my mind options that are already in the squad are - T.Youngs, R.Webber (who isnt starting for Bath), LCD.  If you were going to bring in a 4th from outside the squad then the options are J.George or you could go outside the convention at the moment and look at a guy like D.Ward (who is playing for the BaaBaas against the England 15 on the weekend).  Also been a Saxon.  In the past the default selection for experienced Hooker has been D.Paice - but I dont think he is in the running this time.

No there wasn't.

The 50 man squad was apparently a request from World Rugby but is this the limit? If George were to be brought in would Hartley or someone else have to be dropped from the squad? How does it work?

Webber, Youngs and Cowen-Dickie are all in the 50. No idea if you can bring in another from outside if one isn't available.

Is George or Cowan Dickie ready for a WC?

Or is one ahead in development. I haven't seen a huge amount of Cowan Dickie...but the one trait I keep hearing is a lack of throwing. That's critical in a WC.

George hasn't seen flawless with in the recent games I've seen. Still think George would be ahead for the actual world cup despite not being picked initially.

George, is for me the better hooker and cannot see LCD ever catching up. LCD however is the more "rounded rugby player".

I do suspect that the fact George looks like a front row forward counts against him in the new ultra tight shirted age we live in. silly thing is we all know that a party barrel is better value than a six-pack.

I'd say George is more in the Hartley mould, while LCD's carrying and play around the park is more like Youngs

I'd rather go for the secure set piece, and George is no mug in general play either

LondonTiger wrote:

propdavid_london wrote: There was a public announcement saying that Hartley was on his last chance and now this happens.  

Was there?

Thought only Hartley himself had suggested this while talking about his visits to a psychologist*.






*There will be some suggesting he should have been going to a psychiatrist.

Only those that actually understand the difference. Another flawed psyche in the England set up.

Dylan Hartley gone (for services to stupidity). Jamie George replaces him in the squad.

Hooker selection becomes interesting, and I'd say only Youngs is guaranteed to make it.

Yep, I'd say George and LCD are likely competing for one spot

I'd go with George, but can definitely see LCD picked

Webber isn't starting for Bath at the moment. It is not impossible that he will miss out.

Dylan will be replaced by Jamie George in the World Cup squad and will not be considered until the suspension is served.

At what stage, if any, could he be brought back into the squad while the tournament is still active?

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Dylan will be replaced by Jamie George in the World Cup squad and will not be considered until the suspension is served.

At what stage, if any, could he be brought back into the squad while the tournament is still active?

Only for an injury

lostinwales wrote:Dylan Hartley gone (for services to stupidity). Jamie George replaces him in the squad.

Hooker selection becomes interesting, and I'd say only Youngs is guaranteed to make it.

Agreed. Webber's form is pretty woeful of late. And personally, I hope Lancaster picks on form rather the slight advantage Webber's got in experience.

I would personally and with a lot of bias look at Haywood. If Hartley were not club captain at Saints I think Haywood would start more. He is just like Youngs in his loose play but with more subtlety and his scrummaging and lineout throwing are better imo. His stats were as good as Hartley's last year. If he is pushing the England No. 1 at club level, he should logicaly be pushing him at international level. He kept Hartley out of the AP Final last year and played well.

Like most saints forwards he can join the line without dropping the ball, passing it to no-one or just taking it into contact, he has a pass as good as most backs and great acceleration over 10-20m

George is a big lump of a lad...and playing very well...he could take over Webber.

But Webber is still a good player when he's back in form.

18 months ago give or take I could see Webber pushing for the starting spot but given the last 3 months I wouldnt be overly surprised to see him miss out. Think LCD will impress a few in the warm ups as well but at the moment I think it ll be Youngs and George on the bench as the preferance.

Interesting to see Ford has the better kicking stats this year to the injury hit Farrell, looking forward to the head to head.

Yeah its a big weekend for club and country with the final and the Baa Baa's game

I just hope the players come through unscathed

Any citing possible for Farrell? Ford bigging up a missed red card.

Webber was poor today...has George moved in to second spot....?

Surely the centres will be:
12 Barritt
13 Joseph

No 7&1/2 wrote:Any citing possible for Farrell? Ford bigging up a missed red card.

Doubt he will be cited. For me should have been a YC and in days gone by would have been sent off but there have been plenty of worse tackles this season given no more than a YC.

If it had been Hala'ufia or Hartley then they would have been banned - because the legal process in rugby does not treat people equally.

Yeh I doubt it's worth a full citing, though isn't there a 'warning' citing that can be made where an offence should have been yellow-carded but not red? I think I remember Haskell having one.

Probaby more important than the yellow itself was the fact that Bath then had to play the rest of the game without Watson, one of the best counter attackers and the fastest full back in the league. Thought giving Farrell MOTM after that was in poor taste, and was just responding to the Ford v Farrell England storyline that the press were hyping this week.

no way should Farrell have got MotM. Plenty of Sarries players played better. In fact I am not even sure he outplayed his opposite number despite being behind the dominant pack.

Will be interesting toi see how LCD goes today. George took a big step forwards, and Webber backwards yesterday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Any citing possible for Farrell? Ford bigging up a missed red card.

Farrell has been awarded a retrospective Yellow Card

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Any citing possible for Farrell? Ford bigging up a missed red card.

Farrell has been awarded a retrospective Yellow Card

They aren't going to cite the back up 10 are they!!

Gwlad wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Any citing possible for Farrell? Ford bigging up a missed red card.

Farrell has been awarded a retrospective Yellow Card

They aren't going to cite the back up 10 are they!!

Dispite how much you would them too, no...

Thems the rules, but we have ended up with a situation where one player uses his forearm to take another out of the game, and more or less gets away with it, where as another player nuzzles foreheads in an incident that is not picked up until after the game and is banned for 4 weeks, losing his position in the RWC squad at the same time.

I don't have an axe to grind, I like both players and the edge they bring, unless it boils over. It's just an odd situation

Do you think that Farrell got a lighter punishment because he apologised to Watson after the game?

No

majesticimperialman wrote:Do you think that Farrell got a lighter punishment because he apologised to Watson after the game?

Not at all, Watson dipped into the tackle a bit so I think a yellow is about right.

lostinwales wrote:Thems the rules, but we have ended up with a situation where one player uses his forearm to take another out of the game, and more or less gets away with it, where as another player nuzzles foreheads in an incident that is not picked up until after the game and is banned for 4 weeks, losing his position in the RWC squad at the same time.

I don't have an axe to grind, I like both players and the edge they bring, unless it boils over. It's just an odd situation

As mentioned in my previous comment, Watson dipped into the tackle so a yellow sounds right for being clumsy.

Farrell got a lighter punishment because he is England number 10.

Gwlad wrote:Farrell got a lighter punishment because he is England number 10.

If there were any truth in that, then why was Hartley banned? Given Ford, Cipriani and even Slade's form, Farrell is a much easier player for England to replace than Hartley.

Get back under your bridge.

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Farrell got a lighter punishment because he is England number 10.

If there were any truth in that,  then why was Hartley banned? Given Ford, Cipriani and even Slade's form, Farrell is a much easier player for England to replace than Hartley.

Get back under your bridge.

Hartley was banned for being repeat offending idiot who head butted a player. Farrell got off because he is central to England's world cup plans.

Gwlad, if you had been paying the slightest attention to what England have actually been doing this season, you would know that Farrell is far from central to England's plans. He hasn't even played for England since November. George Ford has started England's last seven games and played well enough that he's firmly established as first choice in the eyes of virtually everyone except, it seems, you. Farrell is a useful alternative now that he's back to form and fitness, but England's attack works less well with him on the pitch, and Ford's one big weakness compared to him - place kicking - is now no longer a weakness.

In addition, you might have noticed that Danny Cipriani and Henry Slade masterminded a record victory over what was on paper a strong Barbarians side yesterday. Whatever you think about that BaaBaas side, it had more experience than its opposition - including several RWC winners and several Lions - and a scratch England XV featuring one likely 1st XV starter (Launchbury) and several debutants ripped them to shreds.

So while losing Farrell might have been inconvenient, it's not as if England are short of options. At hooker, for all Hartley's discipline issues, he remains our most reliable setpiece hooker. If England were going to influence disciplinary proceedings, or if someone were looking to do it on their behalf, they'd have worried more about saving Hartley than saving Farrell.

Or perhaps the truth is that Farrell's tackle was a clumsy effort but without intent, and exacerbated by Watson already falling at the point it was made, whereas Hartley's - while innocuous in effect (in fact, positively beneficial given that Jamie George took his place in the squad) - was deliberate contact with the head and therefore something that the laws of rugby have to address?

But you seem to find that unpalatable, whereas you don't appear to have commented on two Irish and one French internationals escaping bans for what were apparently equally severe offences - or that World Rugby are now monitoring citings and will presumably intervene if they see anything amiss.

As someone with a degree in psychology, please can you enlighten me as to what personality traits might be indicated by someone who consistently makes disparaging and usually unsubstantiated remarks against a particular group, most often in discussions populated mostly by members of that group, and while hiding behind the anonymity of a keyboard?

Poorfour wrote:Gwlad, if you had been paying the slightest attention to what England have actually been doing this season,  you would know that Farrell is far from central to England's plans. He hasn't even played for England since November. George Ford has started England's last seven games and played well enough that he's firmly established as first choice in the eyes of virtually everyone except, it seems, you. Farrell is a useful alternative now that he's back to form and fitness, but England's attack works less well with him on the pitch, and Ford's one big weakness compared to him - place kicking - is now no longer a weakness.

In addition, you might have noticed that Danny Cipriani and Henry Slade masterminded a record victory over what was on paper a strong Barbarians side yesterday. Whatever you think about that BaaBaas side, it had more experience than its opposition - including several RWC winners and several Lions - and a scratch England XV featuring one likely 1st XV starter (Launchbury) and several debutants ripped them to shreds.

So while losing Farrell might have been inconvenient, it's not as if England are short of options. At hooker, for all Hartley's discipline issues, he remains our most reliable setpiece hooker. If England were going to influence disciplinary proceedings, or if someone were looking to do it on their behalf, they'd have worried more about saving Hartley than saving Farrell.

Or perhaps the truth is that Farrell's tackle was a clumsy effort but without intent, and exacerbated by Watson already falling at the point it was made, whereas Hartley's - while innocuous in effect (in fact, positively beneficial given that Jamie George took his place in the squad) - was deliberate contact with the head and therefore something that the laws of rugby have to address?

But you seem to find that unpalatable, whereas you don't appear to have commented on two Irish and one French internationals escaping bans for what were apparently equally severe offences - or that World Rugby are now monitoring citings and will presumably intervene if they see anything amiss.

As someone with a degree in psychology, please can you enlighten me as to what personality traits might be indicated by someone who consistently makes disparaging and usually unsubstantiated remarks against a particular group, most often in discussions populated mostly by members of that group, and while hiding behind the anonymity of a keyboard?

Class

Well at least Farrell showed that hes coming back into a little bit of his former self.

Ford, Cipriani (the Mk2 model) and Farrell are a good trio to take to the world cup...and equally offer a bit of flexibility in positions in emergency situations (covering centre and FB)

So who has nailed themselves into the 32 for the WC?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well at least Farrell showed that hes coming back into a little bit of his former self.

Ford, Cipriani (the Mk2 model) and Farrell are a good trio to take to the world cup...and equally offer a bit of flexibility in positions in emergency situations (covering centre and FB)

So who has nailed themselves into the 32 for the WC?

Is it a 32?

Nailed on assuming fitness:

Marler, Mako, Youngs, Cole, Wilson, Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw, BillyV, Morgan
Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Watson, Brown


Probably Going:
Parling, Haskell, Wiggy, Care, Barritt, Goode

Up for grabs:
Corbs, Mullan, Brookes (probably one spot. If two then Brookes goes as 3rd TH with Corbs v Mullan for 3rd LH)
LCD/Webber/Geroge - Two spots
Attwood, Kruis, Slater - competing for one spot. May have to cover Back row.
Burgess, Easter, Itoje, Kvesic - probably contesting for just one spot may have to cover second row and be competing with the three above
Cipriani v slade - competing to be 3rd FH/Utility back
Daly v Burrell - competing to be JJs backup
May v Yarde - competing for back up winger


Probably missing out:
Eastmond, 36, Ashton, Strettle, Dickson, Clark, Myler

Is it a 32?

Not sure LT...I just have that number in my head for some reason...may be completely wrong

wikipedia say 31 - but no source provided. Official RWC site says bugger all as far as i can see.

Ok Ill have a quick go at my final squad. Ill say 32...but it could be incorrect:

Props: Cole, Wilson, Marler, (Mako v Mullan)
Hookers: Youngs, George, LCD
Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kruis
Back Row: Bill v, Ben Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Kvesic, and I would call up Ewers
17

Scrum Halves: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly Halves: Ford, Cipriani, Farrell
Centres: Barritt, Joseph, Eastmond, Slade
Back 3:Watson, Brown, Nowell (Can Cover centre if required also), May,
14

That's 31...with some experience and youth, and flexibility in positions. Only thing is the backs do look a little on the light side...no real bulk in there without Manu (I decided against Burrell)....

BBC now saying 31. That is one more than last time and the extra man will probably be a prop - tying up 10 of your allowance.

Is that squad what you would pick, or what you think will be picked?

Lancaster said 31 after the match yesterday, and I think has said that there are about 5 or 6 spots still quite open

I think LT is pretty close, but I'd tweak it a bit:

Nailed on assuming fitness:

Marler, Mako, Youngs, Cole, Wilson, Lawes, Launchbury, Wood, Robshaw, BillyV, Morgan
Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Watson, Brown, Wiggy, Care, Barritt, Goode


Up for grabs:
Corbs, Mullan, Brookes (probably one spot - which means Corbs is most likely as IIRC he can cover TH in a pinch)
LCD/Webber/George - Two spots. All to play for - Webber in pole position if he can find form, if he can, then it comes down to whether LCD can sort his throwing.


Parling, Attwood, Kruis, Slater, Haskell, Burgess, Easter, Itoje, Kvesic - very hard to call. Probably at least 2 slots, but could be as many as 5 if Burgess is considered as centre and back row cover. My guess would be:
- 1-2 specialist locks - probably Parling and then could be any of the rest
- 1 lock/back row - Haskell may have his nose in front, I would prefer Easter.
- Burgess, if seen as 12 cover also

Cipriani v slade - competing to be 3rd FH/Utility back. Very tough call - both deserve a shot. Cipriani may be ahead based on
Daly v Burrell - competing to be JJs backup

Centres are the toughest call. My guess is that Lancaster and Catt will try a lot of combinations in the early weeks of training, and decide based on what goes well. If we assume the default pairing is Barritt + Joseph, and Farrell is a given in the squad I'd be wanting to try Farrell / Daly / Burrell / Burgess / Slade at IC with Joseph and OC with Barritt, and then probably a couple of other injury crisis combos - Farrell / Daly; Farrell / Slade; Slade / Daly.

May v Yarde - competing for back up winger. Yarde will have done himself a lot of good yesterday; even Stuart Barnes had to admit he'd done a huge amount of good.

Probably missing out:
Eastmond, 36, Ashton, Strettle, Dickson, Clark, Myler.

AH ok...31 players. Ive taken out..... Goode

LT its the squad I would pick. Im not totally happy with it...but It covers most areas im looking for...just lacks a bit of genuine power in the backs. Shame Manu has been both injured and left out the squad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:AH ok...31 players. Ive taken out..... Goode

LT its the squad I would pick. Im not totally happy with it...but It covers most areas im looking for...just lacks a bit of genuine power in the backs. Shame Manu has been both injured and left out the squad.

Yeah, but Lancaster won't take out Goode (or include Ewers). I'm much less worried about power in the backs than I was a year ago. The main thing is not to have a defensive line that can be easily overpowered, and Barritt or even Farrell at 12 would give you that (Slade might be a bit of a risk).

In terms of carrying power, the guile and pace thing seems to be working for England right now, but if they're all fully fit Nowell, Brown and Yarde aren't short of power. If you need more, it seems likely that he will pack at least one of Burrell or Burgess.

I think the chances are that we will see Both Burrell AND Burgess Poorfour. For me Burrell looks far more effective at 13 when he's played for England

I did say that was the squad I would pick...not what I think Lancs would pick.

I agree we have attacked better. Barritt would sort out defensive line out in the backs...Slade is a strong defender as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok Ill have a quick go at my final squad. Ill say 32...but it could be incorrect:

Props: Cole, Wilson, Marler, (Mako v Mullan)
Hookers: Youngs, George, LCD
Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Kruis
Back Row: Bill v, Ben Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Kvesic, and I would call up Ewers
17

Scrum Halves: Youngs, Care, Wigglesworth
Fly Halves: Ford, Cipriani, Farrell
Centres: Barritt, Joseph, Eastmond, Slade
Back 3:Watson, Brown, Nowell (Can Cover centre if required also), May,
14

That's 31...with some experience and youth, and flexibility in positions. Only thing is the backs do look a little on the light side...no real bulk in there without Manu (I decided against Burrell)....

I can't see both Slade and Cipriani making it, particularly if Goode is in the squad as a second playmaker. I have a feeling Cipriani might make way, since we need a player who can cover 12 and 13 more than one who can cover 15.

I equally can't see Eastmond making it with the number of other players who could cover 12. I'd think it's possible Barritt will be the only true 12, with Burgess, Slade and Farrell covering. If Burgess isn't brought in, then I'd reckon Burrell will be the final centre, also providing a bit of ballast.

I don't think he played well when he came on in the Prem final, but Webber will surely be in the squad, if only because having both George and LCD in is too much of a risk. Given that George had a good final (he can shift for a fat lad), I reckon he'll make it.

As an outside bet, I wouldn't be shocked to see Kruis out in favour of Itoje. Kruis hasn't been outstanding for England so far, and Itoje just looks like he belongs at the top level.

Well Lancaster has got the players for a few weeks before final decisions are made. Those weeks could lead to a few changes.