Irish RWC: Pick your Locks

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

Haven't posted here in a long time tbh but I did this for the last world cup and thought it would be good to do again.
I want to get a sense of what the Irish (and non-Irish) 606ers think the Irish squad should be.

I am taking it as near guaranteed that there will be a 17-14 split
6 props
3 hookers
4 locks
4 backrow

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres
6 outside backs

Locks: Pick 4

O'Connell- Ireland simply don't have a player with a greater work rate. His work in the offensive and defensive maul is simply invaluable. His contribution to offensive and defensive rucks is enormous. This is before you look at his work at set piece and restart and his leadership qualities.
Toner- One of the most improved players in Irish rugby over the last 4 years. He is now a very valued member of the first XV. Lineout work is obvious but the way he get around the pitch is massive and he contributes well to ruck and maul. Is a good ball player as well.
Henderson- Easily the most dynamic option we have. He is the most similar to a modern second row among our options. He is an immense ball carrier, he is seriously effective at ruck time and his defense is very strong. Can play 6. Perhaps his set piece isn't as strong as other options.
Tuohy- I'm a big Tuohy fan. He is dynamic, a good lineout operator for a lock who isn't necessarily tall. He is viscous in rucks and in defense while remaining an effective ball carrier. His injury profile is not good and referees don't seem to be his biggest fans at times.
Ryan- An immense option to have. Delighted he is back from injury. His athleticism is seriously impressive and is boosted by solid lineout work and a lot of dog around the pitch. He is great in defense and is a nuissance at ruck time. Very high work rate also.
Holland- Holland has been a Munster regular for much of the season with Ryan out. His workrate is good and he does a lot of the basics very well. He is strong and excels in the old school Munster game plan, where his maul work and 'grapple/wrestle strength' are utilised.
McCarthy- McCarthy has had another shaky season. He has been pretty hot on linespeed and strong defense but hasn't been so good when it comes to lineout work or breakdown efficiency. One would think he is not playing to his full potential currently.

Please discuss your reasons for voting before you vote as I have not put vote cancelling on and somebody's point of view may sway your decision.

Sin, squire, that is meant as good-natured teasing.

There is no chance that Henderson won't go to the RWC. It would be the biggest mistake since Eddie took Carney over Bowe and left Heaslip at home.

I do think Ryan stands a good chance possibly at Tuohy's expense. Even though Ryan is no more than an emergency 6, it's another string to his bow and might just give Joe a tiny bit of insurance.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think Henderson isn't going get very far with Schmidt as his coach unless he puts his head down and grafts.

And the evidence - a talented player like Henderson should have a lot more starting caps than he has at present. Even that renowned sub, Paddy Wallace started 50% of his caps.

Do you think he'd be in the matchday squads and trusted to come on at crucial stages of big matches if he wasn't already putting his head down and grafting?

Your evidence isn't evidence at all,it's just deflection.

He still isn't good enough to start, unlike Ryan. Your so called crucial stage is when the opposition locks (usually their better ones) are knackered tired. Toner is usually in bits at that stage and should probably have been taken off at 50 minutes.

Behave yourself, Sin é.

What is your problem with Henderson? He isn't starting because O'Connell and Toner happen to be in front of him. O'Connell starting is a no brainer and Toner starts because of his line out ability as well as his experience under Schmidt.
As for not jumping in to rescue the exhausted Toner; you're forgetting that Henderson is also a great option at Blindside, and so Schmidt plays it safe with the bench. Maybe too safe at times when thinking back to when we lost against England when Sexton should have been subbed.
Schmidt himself has said that he thinks Locks come into their own around the age of 26/27, and just maybe he thinks it's a bit early for Henderson to start. He might also be hoping that someone else can prove their worth at lock which would allow him to slot Henderson in at 6. His preferred position.

Its Schmidt who has a problem with Henderson. He has started one game as a lock in 17 caps. He has played one game in about 8 for Ulster as a lock. He is a blindside who can cover lock.

Lots of locks do come into their own at about 25/26 - Irish ones in particular have difficulty filling out. But Henderson is being touted here as a world class lock now when he has hardly played in the position, not when he is 26 or 27.

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, squire, that is meant as good-natured teasing.

The Great Aukster wrote:There is no chance that Henderson won't go to the RWC. It would be the biggest mistake since Eddie took Carney over Bowe and left Heaslip at home.

I do think Ryan stands a good chance possibly at Tuohy's expense. Even though Ryan is no more than an emergency 6, it's another string to his bow and might just give Joe a tiny bit of insurance.

And Bowe says that is the kick up the backside he needed.
Heaslip could have done with being dropped a few times more.
Neither of them going to the world cup back then would have made any difference.

That is what I've been saying about Ryan. He is an experienced international lock who can call a lineout who has partnered both POC and Toner a fair bit and who Schmidt seems to hold in high regard (as he got a 3 year Central Contract from the 14-15 season when Schmidt was head coach. Devin Toner only got a 2 year IRFU central contract).

Henderson has an Ulster contract (3 years).

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, c'mon lads. Youse are being disingenuous. We know exactly what the issue is here. Hendo is a Double Threat to Munster players. Best back-up six, best back-up four.

Fixed it for you Don

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, c'mon lads. Youse are being disingenuous. We know exactly what the issue is here. Hendo is a Double Threat to Munster players. Best back-up six, best back-up four.

Fixed it for you Don

Fixed that for you Rodders and Don. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride

Sin é wrote:

Its Schmidt who has a problem with Henderson. He has started one game as a lock in 17 caps. He has played one game in about 8 for Ulster as a lock. He is a blindside who can cover lock.

Lots of locks do come into their own at about 25/26 - Irish ones in particular have difficulty filling out. But Henderson is being touted here as a world class lock now when he has hardly played in the position, not when he is 26 or 27.

I don't believe Schmidt does have a problem with Henderson, otherwise Schmidt wouldn't have included Henderson in so many games. Henderson will go to the RWC as a bench option, covering 4 and 6, unless he proves that he is as good as Toner in the line out during the warm ups. It will be POC, Toner and Henderson with Tuohy and Ryan fighting it out for inclusion.
I can agree that Henderson isn't a world class anything at this point in time. He will need to get a few starts against quality opposition before those sort of claims can be made. I think most people would agree that he has that potential to be world class as either a Lock or a 6. Personally I would like Schmidt to use him at 6 (move POM to 8), his preferred position, but Schmidt will be wanting a player who can fill the POC shaped void and Henderson is the player most likely to do that.
Henderson will be a star of the Ireland team. It isn't a question of if, it's a question of when.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, c'mon lads. Youse are being disingenuous. We know exactly what the issue is here. Hendo is a Double Threat to Munster players. Best back-up six, best back-up four.

Fixed it for you Don

Fixed that for you Rodders and Don. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride

A bit like Donnacha Ryan was until he turned 30 and decided he fancied a playing some rugby rather than carrying POC and DOCs kit bag around....

Henderson has the physique and is a great athlete, but he needs to have greater awareness of what is going on. POM doesn't have the physique that Henderson has, but he is a much cuter player and a very good decision maker in that he makes great decisions as to when he can win ball and when to even try to win it at the breakdown. Henderson just flings himself in regardless (example was versus Munster in the Ronan O'Mahony incident where the ball was no where near ROM). There was no need for him clean ROM out.

As I've said, Henderson has the physique at a very young age which differentiates him from others. Time will tell whether he can develop the rugby brain part to be world class.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach, c'mon lads. Youse are being disingenuous. We know exactly what the issue is here. Hendo is a Double Threat to Munster players. Best back-up six, best back-up four.

Fixed it for you Don

Fixed that for you Rodders and Don. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride

A bit like Donnacha Ryan was until he turned 30 and decided he fancied a playing some rugby rather than carrying POC and DOCs kit bag around....

Ryan didn't start playing rugby until he was 18. He was very skinny as well. He also turned down a Munster contract to do a 4th year in University.

Brains to burn that fellow!

Sin é wrote:
Brains to burn that fellow!

He must do a lot of reading from the bench!

Sin é wrote:Henderson has the physique and is a great athlete, but he needs to have greater awareness of what is going on. POM doesn't have the physique that Henderson has, but he is a much cuter player and a very good decision maker in that he makes great decisions as to when he can win ball and when to even try to win it at the breakdown. Henderson just flings himself in regardless (example was versus Munster in the Ronan O'Mahony incident where the ball was no where near ROM). There was no need for him clean ROM out.

As I've said, Henderson has the physique at a very young age which differentiates him from others. Time will tell whether he can develop the rugby brain part to be world class.

I'm a huge fan of POM and for the attributes you recognise in him, as well as the fact that he is a leader on the field, as much by example as anything else. POM didn't start out his international career doing all the right things though. He had an issue with discipline. He wasn't always the cute player. The opposition could easily rile him, get into his head, and POM didn't know when to button it. He's matured over time, as will Henderson. Henderson is POM's greatest threat for taking the 6 spot, but if Henderson were to start at 6 I think POM could switch to 8 where he would be equally effective. I don't see Heaslip keeping up the level of intensity that he currently displays for Ireland much longer and so that opportunity may open up sooner rather than later.
Hendersons challenge on ROM was a bit rash, but nothing more. The officials made the wrong call at the time and he was exonerated.

Henderson has huge strength, but much more than that. You're underplaying his ability's here. Not only is it his physique that sets him apart from other, but also his skills. Especially so for someone so powerful. More so than either POC or Toner. As for his rugby brain; the only real issue was 'knowing his calls', but I'm not sure how much of an issue that really was, and doubt it will be an issue moving into the future.

Here's a good article on Henderson related to this discussion: Henderson

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:Henderson has the physique and is a great athlete, but he needs to have greater awareness of what is going on. POM doesn't have the physique that Henderson has, but he is a much cuter player and a very good decision maker in that he makes great decisions as to when he can win ball and when to even try to win it at the breakdown. Henderson just flings himself in regardless (example was versus Munster in the Ronan O'Mahony incident where the ball was no where near ROM). There was no need for him clean ROM out.

As I've said, Henderson has the physique at a very young age which differentiates him from others. Time will tell whether he can develop the rugby brain part to be world class.

I'm a huge fan of POM and for the attributes you recognise in him, as well as the fact that he is a leader on the field, as much by example as anything else. POM didn't start out his international career doing all the right things though. He had an issue with discipline. He wasn't always the cute player. The opposition could easily rile him, get into his head, and POM didn't know when to button it. He's matured over time, as will Henderson. Henderson is POM's greatest threat for taking the 6 spot, but if Henderson were to start at 6 I think POM could switch to 8 where he would be equally effective. I don't see Heaslip keeping up the level of intensity that he currently displays for Ireland much longer and so that opportunity may open up sooner rather than later.
Hendersons challenge on ROM was a bit rash, but nothing more. The officials made the wrong call at the time and he was exonerated.

Henderson has huge strength, but much more than that. You're underplaying his ability's here. Not only is it his physique that sets him apart from other, but also his skills. Especially so for someone so powerful. More so than either POC or Toner. As for his rugby brain; the only real issue was 'knowing his calls', but I'm not sure how much of an issue that really was, and doubt it will be an issue moving into the future.

Here's a good article on Henderson related to this discussion: Henderson

For someone who 'didn't know when to button it' he has an incredible good disciplinary record. (3 Yellow cards in nearly 100 caps for Munster as compared to Henderson with 5* YCs for Ulster). *Counting the red card he got for the ROM clearout as a YC, not Red. POM always knew where the line was right from the beginning and kept it under control. One of the reason he is rated so highly is because of his controlled aggression (and why Toner was considered not to be agressive enough). Other disciplinary comparisions: Jamie Heaslip 9 YC in about 170 caps for Leinster, Sean O'Brien 6 YCs in about 90 Leinster caps.

The point I'm making about the challenge on ROM was that it wasn't necessary in the first place as the ball was gone. He was too intent on the big hit. And Schmidt won't like that.

I've read that interview before - it certainly is a steep learning curve for him and does explain why he wasn't given a central contract or starts more games.

And why would you think he would get away with not knowing the calls when everyone else is expected to and does know them?

edit: What has made POC the player he is, is always wanting to be better. The top locks all do an awful lot of homework - that just does not seem to be Hendeson's bag.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Brains to burn that fellow!

He must do a lot of reading from the bench!

He will know his detail

A player doesn't need to rack up the yellow cards to prove he lacks discipline. POM would lose his cool frequently at the start of his international career. It wasn't simply a matter of him being cute and not crossing the line. If you think that's fine as long he isn't carded then fair enough. I don't.
Henderson has a few yellows. You can't downgrade the red to a yellow. He was exonerated. End of story. At least one other yellow should never have been awarded against him. I think Hodges was the ref at the time, and the numpty couldn't see that it was the opposition pulling Henderson on top of him rather than Henderson pinning him down.
Schmidt may not like Hendersons clear out, but only because it was slightly mistimed. Maybe Schmidt will drop SOB from the World Cup after picking up a yellow for dropping Henderson in the manner he did? No? Didn't think so....

" it certainly is a steep learning curve for him and does explain why he wasn't given a central contract or starts more games."

You either read a different interview or you have missed this:

"I wasn't quite prepared or hadn't realised exactly what it was like and during the Six Nations games it came as a bit of a shock, whereas now I've had a whole Six Nations of it, so I knew what I was getting myself into.

"It just ensures you've got everything nailed off and come match day, it makes you feel so much more comfortable about yourself.

"You might be a wee bit less comfortable during the week in training, you might be a bit nervous, but come match day, you know your detail because there's no other options during the week.

"It's all about detail with Joe, make sure everything is nailed off. There's no point in turning up to training if you don't know what your plays are.

"You need to make sure you've done all your homework on yourself and the opposition, you've watched your training sessions just past, you know what they're going to be like, you know what their line-outs are, you know what their plays are. It's very intense and I think it's fantastic."

You're judging Henderson on something someone said in the past, Sin é, and building a false narrative around it. Certainly false in the present tense.

You don't know what Hendersons bag is. You would like to think you do, but then the evidence is weighted against your opinion. He will be going to the WRC, and eventually he will either replace POC or POM...

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Brains to burn that fellow!

He must do a lot of reading from the bench!

He will know his detail

And if he's not picked ahead of Henderson then I assume you will be fully convinced that Ryan doesn't actually know his detail?

Munchkin wrote:A player doesn't need to rack up the yellow cards to prove he lacks discipline. POM would lose his cool frequently at the start of his international career. It wasn't simply a matter of him being cute and not crossing the line. If you think that's fine as long he isn't carded then fair enough. I don't.

My point is that in comparision to Heaslip and the others, POM is very disciplined. If POM doesn't get YC or attract penalties with his discipline, I don't know what your problem is with him. As I've said, most commentators & coaches think his aggression + knowing where the line is, is a plus. He doesn't do stupid stuff (like for instances Heaslip losing the head with McCaw. POM's controlled agression is far more likely to result in an opposition player being sent off.

Henderson has a few yellows. You can't downgrade the red to a yellow. He was exonerated. End of story. At least one other yellow should never have been awarded against him. I think Hodges was the ref at the time, and the numpty couldn't see that it was the opposition pulling Henderson on top of him rather than Henderson pinning him down.
Schmidt may not like Hendersons clear out, but only because it was slightly mistimed. Maybe Schmidt will drop SOB from the World Cup after picking up a yellow for dropping Henderson in the manner he did? No? Didn't think so....

Interestingly enough, Henderson's Red Card stands on the Pro12 website. I think the challenge was worth a YC anyway and that is why I downgraded it. The Disciplinary Committee recinded the Red Card. They didn't rule on whether it was a YC. Nigel Owens was the ref and you need to look at it again to see what actually happened. (He launched himself into a ruck knocking ROM backwards). Owens thought he had led with and made contact with his head. He hadn't made contact, but the way he launched himself into that ruck was reckless and deserved a yellow at least.

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/9846182/henderson-shown-red-card

Schmidt wouldn't like that because giving away a penalty so close to the end of a game could cost you a game. How many times have you seen when trying to hang in a game someone will give away a stupid penalty.


" it certainly is a steep learning curve for him and does explain why he wasn't given a central contract or starts more games."

You either read a different interview or you have missed this:

"I wasn't quite prepared or hadn't realised exactly what it was like and during the Six Nations games it came as a bit of a shock, whereas now I've had a whole Six Nations of it, so I knew what I was getting myself into.

"It just ensures you've got everything nailed off and come match day, it makes you feel so much more comfortable about yourself.

"You might be a wee bit less comfortable during the week in training, you might be a bit nervous, but come match day, you know your detail because there's no other options during the week.

"It's all about detail with Joe, make sure everything is nailed off. There's no point in turning up to training if you don't know what your plays are.

"You need to make sure you've done all your homework on yourself and the opposition, you've watched your training sessions just past, you know what they're going to be like, you know what their line-outs are, you know what their plays are. It's very intense and I think it's fantastic."

You're judging Henderson on something someone said in the past, Sin é, and building a false narrative around it. Certainly false in the present tense.

You don't know what Hendersons bag is. You would like to think you do, but then the evidence is weighted against your opinion. He will be going to the WRC, and eventually he will either replace POC or POM...[/quote]

I'm look at the evidence that if Henderson was doing his homework well, he should have displaced Toner at least who is a grafter, but has an awful lot going against him physically in comparision to Henderson.

I remember seeing a video of the Irish team on a plane coming home for a game you could also see POC & DOC doing video analysis while all the rest were just relaxing.

If he hasn't been able to replace Toner, he is not going to replace POC. The only way he will get to play blindside is if POM & SOB are both injured.

POM is a simmering pile of aggression that you think's going to explode at any given moment but doesn't. I love his aggression and it doesn't take a behavioural expert to tell how much playing for Munster or Ireland means to the man. He's not the most physically imposing specimen but he more than makes up for that by punching well above his weight backed up by that passion/aggression. He's the kind of player you'd like to clone.
Henderson is still only a cub and will mature over time as he doesn't have to grow physically any more, he's already a beast. The kid has the skillset and physicality to become one of the best IMO. He can't be judged on that on ruck clearout which was every bit as mistimed and the punishment was misjudged by Nigel Owens, one of his rare mistakes. It should never be used as a black mark against him.

I don't have a problem with POM! I did tell you that I'm a huge fan of his. I was simply pointing out that his discipline, self control, was lacking at the start of his international career and that he's matured into a very fine leader since then. How could you interpret what I have said otherwise?

Yes, his aggression is a positive, a huge positive....now.

Henderson's challenge on ROM might be construed as reckless, but if the officials hadn't wrongly judged on a clash of heads I doubt any card would have been awarded. The citing panel exonerated Henderson, and as much as they can't judge on the merits of a yellow, neither can anyone assert that a yellow would have been awarded, including you.
I have viewed the incident enough now. I do know it was never a red. I don't know that it was worthy of a yellow. There are plenty who think it didn't merit a card of any description. POM himself seemed bemused as to why Henderson was carded.

I don't know what Schmidt thinks about it. Obviously not all that much since Henderson is in the squad and no doubt will get game time...

Anyway, Sin é, this is pointless deflection. Moving on >

"I'm look at the evidence that if Henderson was doing his homework well, he should have displaced Toner at least who is a grafter, but has an awful lot going against him physically in comparision to Henderson."

Toner is there because of his experience of working under Schmidt, his experience of being paired with O'Connell and the fact that he is great in the lineout. Remember; Henderson missed the AI's and most of the season due to injury. Schmidt was never going to start Henderson in the 6N's without him having more experience, and whilst Toner was well able for the responsibilities required of him.
Between Henderson and Toner who do you think would be better coming off the bench? It's Henderson, and it's Henderson because he can do what Toner can't. He can offer a level of physicality that Toner just doesn't have, and he can cover 6. It's a no brainer, and it's a no brainer, not because of a lack of, but because he offers more than Toner...

"I remember seeing a video of the Irish team on a plane coming home for a game you could also see POC & DOC doing video analysis while all the rest were just relaxing."

And where was Toner? You're not seriously offering this as evidence for not picking Henderson, are you?

"If he hasn't been able to replace Toner, he is not going to replace POC".

Skewed logic. See reasons above.

"The only way he will get to play blindside is if POM & SOB are both injured."

I don't believe he will play blindside this WRC. At least his role will be primarily to cover Lock, but if needs be then he will fill in for blindside.
After the WRC Henderson will take over as Lock although there is always the possibility that he will replace POM at 6. Not a slight on POM as I think that will most likely happen if POM is moved to 8.

Munchkin wrote:I don't have a problem with POM! I did tell you that I'm a huge fan of his. I was simply pointing out that his discipline, self control, was lacking at the start of his international career and that he's matured into a very fine leader since then. How could you interpret what I have said otherwise?

Yes, his aggression is a positive, a huge positive....now.

I don't think his discipline was ever an issue. He got his first cap in 2012 and he captained Ireland a year later and was selected ahead of some players who were a lot older and more experienced than he was. Very few coaches will select captains with poor discipline or who are not always in control.

I remember a game against the Ospreys during the world cup in 2011 when he captained Munster. It was a horribly nigly match with a couple of sin binnings (not Peter). In the after match interview, there was steam coming out of his ears, yet he stayed on the right side of the discipline line throughout the game and the Ospreys do know how to wind people up. If he could keep control in that situation, he would keep control in any situation.

Henderson's challenge on ROM might be construed as reckless, but if the officials hadn't wrongly judged on a clash of heads I doubt any card would have been awarded. The citing panel exonerated Henderson, and as much as they can't judge on the merits of a yellow, neither can anyone assert that a yellow would have been awarded, including you.
I have viewed the incident enough now. I do know it was never a red. I don't know that it was worthy of a yellow. There are plenty who think it didn't merit a card of any description. POM himself seemed bemused as to why Henderson was carded.

I don't know what Schmidt thinks about it. Obviously not all that much since Henderson is in the squad and no doubt will get game time...

Look, Niall Ronan ended up in hospital with a similar sort of challenge. Whether he was carded or not, it was reckless and stupid and against the laws of the game and worth at least a penalty which is the part that Schmidt wouldn't like.

Toner is there because of his experience of working under Schmidt, his experience of being paired with O'Connell and the fact that he is great in the lineout. Remember; Henderson missed the AI's and most of the season due to injury. Schmidt was never going to start Henderson in the 6N's without him having more experience, and whilst Toner was well able for the responsibilities required of him.

Henderson has been lucky with regard to the way injuries have gone for the last 6Ns - with both Ryan and Foley injured and Tuohy coming back from injury. McCarthy's form has fallen off a cliff.

I wouldn't rate Toner too highly as a lock. He has worked hard, has mastered the maul, but he lacks agility and aggression. He great attribute is his height where he can be stuck in the front of the lineout for safe ball on your own call. Someone like POM is much better in defensive lineout work as he is so easy to get up in the air and he is like a dog with a bone if he gets a sniff at all.

Between Henderson and Toner who do you think would be better coming off the bench? It's Henderson, and it's Henderson because he can do what Toner can't. He can offer a level of physicality that Toner just doesn't have, and he can cover 6. It's a no brainer, and it's a no brainer, not because of a lack of, but because he offers more than Toner...

And Ryan, Tuohy & Foley are all better locks than Henderson who can cover 6 off the bench. POM played 80mins in all but the Italian game for the 6Ns and Henderson was mainly used as lock cover for Toner.

"I remember seeing a video of the Irish team on a plane coming home for a game you could also see POC & DOC doing video analysis while all the rest were just relaxing."

And where was Toner? You're not seriously offering this as evidence for not picking Henderson, are you?

"If he hasn't been able to replace Toner, he is not going to replace POC".

Skewed logic. See reasons above.

Toner was probably still in Secondary School - this is back in the early '00s. My point is that long before Schmidt hit the scene, POC & DOC were taking getting their detail right seriously - thats what it takes to be a world class lock.

"The only way he will get to play blindside is if POM & SOB are both injured."

I don't believe he will play blindside this WRC. At least his role will be primarily to cover Lock, but if needs be then he will fill in for blindside.
After the WRC Henderson will take over as Lock although there is always the possibility that he will replace POM at 6. Not a slight on POM as I think that will most likely happen if POM is moved to 8.

Why would the IRFU give Jamie Heaslip a central contract recently if they were going to move POM there after the world cup? Heaslip is a starter at 8 or out of the team. There are also a few young No. 8s coming through (like Stander, Conan, Murphy and the Prince, Jack O'Donoghue who Schmidt reckons is the best young forward in the country). They are all playing at No. 8 at the moment. Its like people used to think (hope!) that SOB would be moved to 6 and POM dropped.

Pete330v2 wrote:POM is a simmering pile of aggression that you think's going to explode at any given moment but doesn't. I love his aggression and it doesn't take a behavioural expert to tell how much playing for Munster or Ireland means to the man. He's not the most physically imposing specimen but he more than makes up for that by punching well above his weight backed up by that passion/aggression. He's the kind of player you'd like to clone.
Henderson is still only a cub and will mature over time as he doesn't have to grow physically any more, he's already a beast. The kid has the skillset and physicality to become one of the best IMO. He can't be judged on that on ruck clearout which was every bit as mistimed and the punishment was misjudged by Nigel Owens, one of his rare mistakes. It should never be used as a black mark against him.

Fairplay to you Pete, you see as a positive (along with most pundits) that POM brings in his game.

I only gave the example of him flying into the ruck because its memorable and there is a vid clip of it. My point from that is that he had launched himself into the ruck without thinking taking himself out of the game, and the ball already out. Its just poor play and I don't think he is a dirty player. He does go running mad around the place though and he needs to control that to be of any use.

Sin e, name the non-munster forward in the training squad you are most excited to see play at the worldcup?

I think O'Mahony and Heaslip are both great, but very similar. For them to work we need O'Brien at his gainline busting best. They're still our best options, but felt like Ferris got the best out of Heaslip in terms of how they complemented each other. Heaslip needs to carry more now, which he's not as good at.

But Henderson doesn't have the accuracy and effectiveness at the breakdown to be his direct replacement, not even close, so you'd have to go with POM. He's very obviously the best 6 in Ireland.

I'm a big fan of O'Mahony by the way, just thinking in terms of combinations.

I totally disagree that Ryan, Tuohy etc are even close to covering what Henderson can off the bench by the way. Just as athletes, ball carriers, physical presence in the ruck and maul, offloading- in the role of an impact sub, there's not anyone in the chasing pack close to covering what he does. That role off the bench- accentuates what he's good at and minimises what he's not. I think he needs to keep progressing to start but he's also a certainty for the match day squad whenever fit. It's a strange one.

Actually will be interesting to see what possible combinations there are when CJ Stander becomes eligible.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I don't have a problem with POM! I did tell you that I'm a huge fan of his. I was simply pointing out that his discipline, self control, was lacking at the start of his international career and that he's matured into a very fine leader since then. How could you interpret what I have said otherwise?

Yes, his aggression is a positive, a huge positive....now.

I don't think his discipline was ever an issue. He got his first cap in 2012 and he captained Ireland a year later and was selected ahead of some players who were a lot older and more experienced than he was. Very few coaches will select captains with poor discipline or who are not always in control.

I remember a game against the Ospreys during the world cup in 2011 when he captained Munster. It was a horribly nigly match with a couple of sin binnings (not Peter). In the after match interview, there was steam coming out of his ears, yet he stayed on the right side of the discipline line throughout the game and the Ospreys do know how to wind people up. If he could keep control in that situation, he would keep control in any situation.

Henderson's challenge on ROM might be construed as reckless, but if the officials hadn't wrongly judged on a clash of heads I doubt any card would have been awarded. The citing panel exonerated Henderson, and as much as they can't judge on the merits of a yellow, neither can anyone assert that a yellow would have been awarded, including you.
I have viewed the incident enough now. I do know it was never a red. I don't know that it was worthy of a yellow. There are plenty who think it didn't merit a card of any description. POM himself seemed bemused as to why Henderson was carded.

I don't know what Schmidt thinks about it. Obviously not all that much since Henderson is in the squad and no doubt will get game time...

Look, Niall Ronan ended up in hospital with a similar sort of challenge. Whether he was carded or not, it was reckless and stupid and against the laws of the game and worth at least a penalty which is the part that Schmidt wouldn't like.

Toner is there because of his experience of working under Schmidt, his experience of being paired with O'Connell and the fact that he is great in the lineout. Remember; Henderson missed the AI's and most of the season due to injury. Schmidt was never going to start Henderson in the 6N's without him having more experience, and whilst Toner was well able for the responsibilities required of him.

Henderson has been lucky with regard to the way injuries have gone for the last 6Ns - with both Ryan and Foley injured and Tuohy coming back from injury. McCarthy's form has fallen off a cliff.

I wouldn't rate Toner too highly as a lock. He has worked hard, has mastered the maul, but he lacks agility and aggression. He great attribute is his height where he can be stuck in the front of the lineout for safe ball on your own call. Someone like POM is much better in defensive lineout work as he is so easy to get up in the air and he is like a dog with a bone if he gets a sniff at all.

Between Henderson and Toner who do you think would be better coming off the bench? It's Henderson, and it's Henderson because he can do what Toner can't. He can offer a level of physicality that Toner just doesn't have, and he can cover 6. It's a no brainer, and it's a no brainer, not because of a lack of, but because he offers more than Toner...

And Ryan, Tuohy & Foley are all better locks than Henderson who can cover 6 off the bench. POM played 80mins in all but the Italian game for the 6Ns and Henderson was mainly used as lock cover for Toner.

"I remember seeing a video of the Irish team on a plane coming home for a game you could also see POC & DOC doing video analysis while all the rest were just relaxing."

And where was Toner? You're not seriously offering this as evidence for not picking Henderson, are you?

"If he hasn't been able to replace Toner, he is not going to replace POC".

Skewed logic. See reasons above.

Toner was probably still in Secondary School - this is back in the early '00s. My point is that long before Schmidt hit the scene, POC & DOC were taking getting their detail right seriously - thats what it takes to be a world class lock.

"The only way he will get to play blindside is if POM & SOB are both injured."

I don't believe he will play blindside this WRC. At least his role will be primarily to cover Lock, but if needs be then he will fill in for blindside.
After the WRC Henderson will take over as Lock although there is always the possibility that he will replace POM at 6. Not a slight on POM as I think that will most likely happen if POM is moved to 8.

Why would the IRFU give Jamie Heaslip a central contract recently if they were going to move POM there after the world cup? Heaslip is a starter at 8 or out of the team. There are also a few young No. 8s coming through (like Stander, Conan, Murphy and the Prince, Jack  O'Donoghue who Schmidt reckons is the best young forward in the country). They are all playing at No. 8 at the moment. Its like people used to think (hope!) that SOB would be moved to 6 and POM dropped.

It isn't that POM was a penalty machine. It was that his behaviour would likely put the ref on the wrong side of the team. He was behaving as if he wanted to fight just about anyone, and couldn't resist being being a bit mouthy. I doubt very much Schmidt was encouraged by that behaviour, but POM has matured and tends not to get involved in the handbags so much as well as keeping it buttoned much more than he used to. The aggression is still there, even if he was quiet in his last few games, but that aggression is expressed much more appropriately.

ROM didn't end up in hospital as a result of Hendersons challenge! What's the fact that someone else put him in hospital got to do with Henderson? I don't think ROM was even really injured in that clear out. It wasn't as if he kicked ROM's head, was it? Now that sort of behaviour Schmidt really doesn't like, does he, Sin é?

None of Ryan, Foley or Tuohy are close to being the player that Henderson is, and will be. Where they have an edge on him is experience, but the more game time Henderson is exposed too the less that will be a factor, obviously.
Neither McCarthy or Foley had a chance of jumping ahead of Henderson. Both had their chances during the AI's when Henderson was ruled out due to hip surgery. There's not a chance that but for Foley injuring his wrist he would have got game time in the 6N's ahead of Henderson.
Following the WRC it's more than possible that one of Ryan or Tuohy will take the place of POC, even if only for a season. That position is marked out for Henderson once he's ready for it. Unless of course he takes the 6 spot from POM, and, as I said, that will only be if POM moves to 8 should Heaslip fall of the pace, IRFU signed or not. I doubt it will be next season. The season after next?

"Toner was probably still in Secondary School - this is back in the early '00s. My point is that long before Schmidt hit the scene, POC & DOC were taking getting their detail right seriously - thats what it takes to be a world class lock."

     What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man.....

I did say that POM could move to 8 if Heaslip falls off the intensity he currently displays. Personally I think that will be sooner rather than later. Heaslip might last long enough to feature in the 2017 6N's. I can't see past that though. You're right, there are other contenders. We will just have to wait and see if someone else steps up.

Lets see who steps up during the warm ups first.

Sin, you're sceptical about Hendo, fair enough.

But seriously - not as good a lock as Ryan, Tuohy or Foley?

You have totally over-egged that one, my friend.

wolfball wrote:Sin e, name the non-munster forward in the training squad you are most excited to see play at the worldcup?

I'm not excited about anyone. The style played by Ireland isn't exactly exciting.

Notch wrote:I think O'Mahony and Heaslip are both great, but very similar. For them to work we need O'Brien at his gainline busting best. They're still our best options, but felt like Ferris got the best out of Heaslip in terms of how they complemented each other. Heaslip needs to carry more now, which he's not as good at.

But Henderson doesn't have the accuracy and effectiveness at the breakdown to be his direct replacement, not even close, so you'd have to go with POM. He's very obviously the best 6 in Ireland.

I'm a big fan of O'Mahony by the way, just thinking in terms of combinations.

What I've been saying, though I think David Wallace probably got a fair bit out of Heaslip.

Munchkin wrote:
It isn't that POM was a penalty machine. It was that his behaviour would likely put the ref on the wrong side of the team. He was behaving as if he wanted to fight just about anyone, and couldn't resist being being a bit mouthy. I doubt very much Schmidt was encouraged by that behaviour, but POM has matured and tends not to get involved in the handbags so much as well as keeping it buttoned much more than he used to. The aggression is still there, even if he was quiet in his last few games, but that aggression is expressed much more appropriately.

That was your perception. The reality was that it wasn't an issue.

ROM didn't end up in hospital as a result of Hendersons challenge! What's the fact that someone else put him in hospital got to do with Henderson? I don't think ROM was even really injured in that clear out. It wasn't as if he kicked ROM's head, was it? Now that sort of behaviour Schmidt really doesn't like, does he, Sin é?

None of Ryan, Foley or Tuohy are close to being the player that Henderson is, and will be. Where they have an edge on him is experience, but the more game time Henderson is exposed too the less that will be a factor, obviously.

All we see of Henderson is him running around like a mad thing hitting rucks for 15 minutes or so at the end of an international, usually replacing Toner who is generally wiped out after giving his all for 65 minutes.

Neither McCarthy or Foley had a chance of jumping ahead of Henderson. Both had their chances during the AI's when Henderson was ruled out due to hip surgery. There's not a chance that but for Foley injuring his wrist he would have got game time in the 6N's ahead of Henderson.

McCarthy is past it. Not sure what you are saying there about Foley.

Following the WRC it's more than possible that one of Ryan or Tuohy will take the place of POC, even if only for a season. That position is marked out for Henderson once he's ready for it. Unless of course he takes the 6 spot from POM, and, as I said, that will only be if POM moves to 8 should Heaslip fall of the pace, IRFU signed or not. I doubt it will be next season. The season after next?

For supposedly such a talented guy, it seems odd that he is depending on winning a starting place if Heaslip falls off the pace and POM is moved to 8. (POM isn't going to be moved to 8 - there are too many good 8 coming on stream now. If POM was going to be moved to 8, it would have happened in Munster a long time ago.

"Toner was probably still in Secondary School - this is back in the early '00s. My point is that long before Schmidt hit the scene, POC & DOC were taking getting their detail right seriously - thats what it takes to be a world class lock."      What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man.....

Nope, Henderson said he was surprised at the amount of detail/analysis he had to do. At a guess, I say POC wasn't too surprised at the amount of analysis/detail that has to be done to compete at the top.

Don Alfonso wrote:Sin, you're sceptical about Hendo, fair enough.

But seriously - not as good a lock as Ryan, Tuohy or Foley?

You have totally over-egged that one, my friend.

How can you say he is a better lock than all of those when he rarely plays as a lock and has said his preferred position is at Blindside. He is behind Tuohy & van der Merwe was brought in to play in the 2nd row. So Yes, he isn't as good a lock as Tuohy anyway because he is selected ahead of Henderson for Ulster.

By the same logic, Andrew Smith is a better outside centre than Earls.

Don Alfonso wrote:By the same logic, Andrew Smith is a better outside centre than Earls.

Andrew Smith was here for a season only and is now left. Earls has been injured for the last season. GVH & Conway were injured/just coming back from injury - Earls is also an accomplished winger, something Andrew Smith is not.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:I think O'Mahony and Heaslip are both great, but very similar. For them to work we need O'Brien at his gainline busting best. They're still our best options, but felt like Ferris got the best out of Heaslip in terms of how they complemented each other. Heaslip needs to carry more now, which he's not as good at.

But Henderson doesn't have the accuracy and effectiveness at the breakdown to be his direct replacement, not even close, so you'd have to go with POM. He's very obviously the best 6 in Ireland.

I'm a big fan of O'Mahony by the way, just thinking in terms of combinations.

What I've been saying, though I think David Wallace probably got a fair bit out of Heaslip.  

Oh yeah, that was probably our best ever back row. Ever.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:By the same logic, Andrew Smith is a better outside centre than Earls.

Andrew Smith was here for a season only and is now left. Earls has been injured for the last season. GVH & Conway were injured/just coming back from injury - Earls is also an accomplished winger, something Andrew Smith is not.

That's all riveting.

Andrew Smith started at 13 when Earls was available. If we apply the same super-nuanced analytical skills to that situation that you applied to Henderson's situation, Earls is not as good a 13 as Andrew Smith. But no, I bring up that situation and all of a sudden it's all about injuries and the other positions Earls can play. Whereas with Henderson it's all a bit reductio ad absurdum.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:By the same logic, Andrew Smith is a better outside centre than Earls.

Andrew Smith was here for a season only and is now left. Earls has been injured for the last season. GVH & Conway were injured/just coming back from injury - Earls is also an accomplished winger, something Andrew Smith is not.

That's all riveting.

Andrew Smith started at 13 when Earls was available. If we apply the same super-nuanced analytical skills to that situation that you applied to Henderson's situation, Earls is not as good a 13 as Andrew Smith. But no, I bring up that situation and all of a sudden it's all about injuries and the other positions Earls can play. Whereas with Henderson it's all a bit reductio ad absurdum.

Half of Earls' games for Munster were at 13 since coming back from his injury in January. Henderson has started 1 game at lock for Ulster (v Edinburgh). Secondly, Andrew Smith has not been retained by Munster unlike Dan Tuohy & Franco van der Merwe who will be an obstacle for Henderson to play as a lock for Ulster for the next few years.

Yeah but the final - presumably the most important game in Munster's calendar -Smith was at 13 rather than Earls.

And no, Smith has not been retained by Munster. I read he didn't want to stay.

That must be because Earls is is hot at centre. And not because of the arrival of excellent centre and capped All-Black Francis Saili. Granted Saili often plays 12, but he's the 13th centre Munster have brought in since 2005. Which is weird considering how brilliant Earls is.

It's also weird how sometimes you're so profuse with facts, and sometimes you just love such simplistic logic. I haven't seen you mention that Henderson had a hip injury, missed the AIs and was back into the Six Nations team after, I think, most of a Pro12 game and a Saxons game. (In which, ironically, Earls played 13 and he played lock.) Yeah, sounds like Joe just doesn't rate him.

Anyway - you don't like second rows who can sidestep. we get it. Agree to disagree, and see what the future brings.

Don Alfonso wrote:Yeah but the final - presumably the most important game in Munster's calendar -Smith was at 13 rather than Earls.

And no, Smith has not been retained by Munster.  I read he didn't want to stay.

That must be because Earls is is hot at centre. And not because of the arrival of excellent centre and capped All-Black Francis Saili. Granted Saili often plays 12, but he's the 13th centre Munster have brought in since 2005. Which is weird considering how brilliant Earls is.

It's also weird how sometimes you're so profuse with facts, and sometimes you just love such simplistic logic. I haven't seen you mention that Henderson had a hip injury,  missed the AIs and was back into the Six Nations team after, I think, most of a Pro12 game and a Saxons game. (In which, ironically, Earls played 13 and he played lock.) Yeah, sounds like Joe just doesn't rate him.

Anyway - you don't like second rows who can sidestep. we get it. Agree to disagree, and see what the future brings.

Yep, he was at 14 because Andrew Conway & Gerhard VDH were not fit enough/injured, not to mention question marks over Simon Zebo's fitness (ribs).

Yea, Smith prefers to be clubless than stay with Munster!

Earls was 17 back in 2005, so I'm not sure what your point is there. The fact that Toner & POC were about the only 2 fit locks in Ireland (bar McCarthy who has completely lost form) for the 6Nations explains why Henderson was badly needed for the 6Ns. Dave Foley filled in nicely for the AIs.

But surely if the context of Ulster's back row needs are irrelevant, Munster's wing needs are irrelevant? That's exactly my point about your two completely different standards o logic.

And Foley was fine. i dare say he'll continue to be fine.

Don Alfonso wrote:But surely if the context of Ulster's back row needs are irrelevant,  Munster's wing needs are irrelevant? That's exactly my point about your two completely different standards o logic.

And Foley was fine. i dare say he'll continue to be fine.

Henderson though isn't going to put Tuohy, Franco VDM or Stephenson on the bench though, is he? He has managed to get ahead of Robbie Diack, thats about it.

At least no other lock has been parachuted in ahead of Foley even though POC is leaving. In fact I'd have been very surprised if POC was released from his contract if they didn't have full faith in Foley & Ryan.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:But surely if the context of Ulster's back row needs are irrelevant,  Munster's wing needs are irrelevant? That's exactly my point about your two completely different standards o logic.

And Foley was fine. i dare say he'll continue to be fine.

Henderson though isn't going to put Tuohy, Franco VDM or Stephenson on the bench though, is he? He has managed to get ahead of Robbie Diack, thats about it.

At least no other lock has been parachuted in ahead of Foley even though POC is leaving. In fact I'd have been very surprised if POC was released from his contract if they didn't have full faith in Foley & Ryan.

Henderson will be a certain starter in the Ulster team for years if he continues his form, and other players will be dropped to accommodate him. Right now, he is most useful at blindside flanker for Ulster, and that is where he will play. It has nothing to do with the fact he isn't good enough to displace some of his second row comrades. There is no need to at this moment in time.

This is the same scenario as Munster playing Keith Earls at 14 last season. He was most needed on the wing rather than at 13, so that is where he was played.

There is no question about Henderson starting for Ulster, the question is about which position he will start in. Ulster have plenty of locks, and few backrowers so I don't see Henderson getting too many opportunities to play lock which will probably mean he won't be a first choice lock at international level and will probably remain behind POM in the backrow.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
It isn't that POM was a penalty machine. It was that his behaviour would likely put the ref on the wrong side of the team. He was behaving as if he wanted to fight just about anyone, and couldn't resist being being a bit mouthy. I doubt very much Schmidt was encouraged by that behaviour, but POM has matured and tends not to get involved in the handbags so much as well as keeping it buttoned much more than he used to. The aggression is still there, even if he was quiet in his last few games, but that aggression is expressed much more appropriately.

(1) That was your perception. The reality was that it wasn't an issue.

None of Ryan, Foley or Tuohy are close to being the player that Henderson is, and will be. Where they have an edge on him is experience, but the more game time Henderson is exposed too the less that will be a factor, obviously.

(2) All we see of Henderson is him running around like a mad thing hitting rucks for 15 minutes or so at the end of an international, usually replacing Toner who is generally wiped out after giving his all for 65 minutes.

Neither McCarthy or Foley had a chance of jumping ahead of Henderson. Both had their chances during the AI's when Henderson was ruled out due to hip surgery. There's not a chance that but for Foley injuring his wrist he would have got game time in the 6N's ahead of Henderson.

(3) McCarthy is past it. Not sure what you are saying there about Foley.

Following the WRC it's more than possible that one of Ryan or Tuohy will take the place of POC, even if only for a season. That position is marked out for Henderson once he's ready for it. Unless of course he takes the 6 spot from POM, and, as I said, that will only be if POM moves to 8 should Heaslip fall of the pace, IRFU signed or not. I doubt it will be next season. The season after next?

(4) For supposedly such a talented guy, it seems odd that he is depending on winning a starting place if Heaslip falls off the pace and POM is moved to 8. (POM isn't going to be moved to 8 - there are too many good 8 coming on stream now. If POM was going to be moved to 8, it would have happened in Munster a long time ago.

"Toner was probably still in Secondary School - this is back in the early '00s. My point is that long before Schmidt hit the scene, POC & DOC were taking getting their detail right seriously - thats what it takes to be a world class lock."      What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man.....

(5) Nope, Henderson said he was surprised at the amount of detail/analysis he had to do. At a guess, I say POC wasn't too surprised at the amount of analysis/detail that has to be done to compete at the top.

(1)It wasn't just my perception though, Sin é. At the start of POM's international career, POM wasn't all that hot. Not someone you could say without question had a long international career ahead of him.
You say it was lucky for Henderson that he got into the squad due to injuries others picked up, which is nonsense, but then if Ferris hadn't have had his international career cut short POM would never have made the squad as a 6.
As I said, not just my perception:

"  the shirt-grabbing rabble-rouser has been replaced by a focused and cold-eyed professional. Wales continually tried to rile him on Saturday but he never wavered once, concentrating instead on winning the game. He seemed .. coached .. odd as it might sound. The only moment when the old O’Mahony resurfaced was when he almost talked himself into a sin-binning when Barnes had assumed his punctilious hat.  [O’Connell was off the pitch at this point, with Heaslip assuming captaincy duties, and he probably should have smelt the danger and made himself present at the little chat and gagged O’Mahony.]  Twelve months ago, we still thought his place in the team was in question, but right now he should be forming the backbone of our team through to RWC19. Heck, even Leinsterlion has conceded that he’s at least average.  The backrow unit has improved beyond all recognition, yet its best player, possibly best two players, are out injured." Naughty POM

(2) Henderson running around' like a mad thing'. You stated this at least a couple of times, and it's absolute nonsense. Do you honestly think Schmidt would have him in the squad if he 'ran about like a mad thing'? Truth is though, I want him running about like a mad thing, but a smart mad thing doing what he's supposed to do.
That wasn't much of a rebuff from you in response to my comment that neither Foley or Ryan come close to the player Henderson is. As much as I like Ryan and Tuohy, they are never going to be world class internationals. Henderson will be.

(3) McCarthy has had his day. Foley isn't a bad player, but no Henderson. That's what I'm saying.

(4) Why is it odd? It's odd that you think it's odd. POM is doing a great job at 6, and in doing a great job there's a great balance across the backrow. More so when the backrow is POM, Henry and Heaslip. Some would argue SOB is a better player than Henry, but Henry brings a better balance to the backrow. POM is very experienced in his position now. To state the obvious; Henderson isn't. He would need to work up a bit of experience in that position for Ireland, although if one of POM or Heaslip was injured he might have a chance of starting. Then it's up to him to make the most of it. I don't see us losing POM for a while, but I do see Heaslip falling of the pace and POM being slotted in at 8, Henderson at 6. Not right now, and maybe not next season, but certainly possible. That's just looking at those players. I know others may well come in to challenge for places in the backrow, and I know Schmidt might be determined that Henderson is going to fill in for POC after the WRC.

(5) I think just about all players would have been surprised at the amount of detail applied to the training. First for the Leinster lads and then for those getting to know him since he took over as Ireland's head coach. The only reason POC wouldn't have been surprised, which is something you just invented for arguments sake, would be because Leinster players would have informed him beforehand.

I see Dave Foley is back at pre-season for Munster.

https://twitter.com/munsterrugby/status/615510656247296000

I wonder where Hendo is.

Don Alfonso wrote:I see Dave Foley is back at pre-season for Munster.

https://twitter.com/munsterrugby/status/615510656247296000

I wonder where Hendo is.

Hopefully somewhere learning his detail !

Ha ha ha ha touché!

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:But surely if the context of Ulster's back row needs are irrelevant,  Munster's wing needs are irrelevant? That's exactly my point about your two completely different standards o logic.

And Foley was fine. i dare say he'll continue to be fine.

Henderson though isn't going to put Tuohy, Franco VDM or Stephenson on the bench though, is he? He has managed to get ahead of Robbie Diack, thats about it.

At least no other lock has been parachuted in ahead of Foley even though POC is leaving. In fact I'd have been very surprised if POC was released from his contract if they didn't have full faith in Foley & Ryan.

Well he's not put Stevenson on the bench. He's put Stevenson out of the squad completely. If we had better back rowers he'd definitely be ahead of one of our locks. As it is, we have three very good locks and one pretty good blindside. So we're trying to fit our best players into the team.

Sin é wrote:

At least no other lock has been parachuted in ahead of Foley even though POC is leaving. In fact I'd have been very surprised if POC was released from his contract if they didn't have full faith in Foley & Ryan.

POCs contract was with the IRFU not Munster so they wouldn't have much say in it if O'Connell was retiring anyways.

Pretty sure if Munster had any money they'd be in the market for a replacement (like Henderson), mind you they have DOC contracted until 2050 so they should be ok...

All the cash has gone on buying up AB centres as Keith Earls isn't good enough.