Irish RWC: Pick your Locks

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

Haven't posted here in a long time tbh but I did this for the last world cup and thought it would be good to do again.
I want to get a sense of what the Irish (and non-Irish) 606ers think the Irish squad should be.

I am taking it as near guaranteed that there will be a 17-14 split
6 props
3 hookers
4 locks
4 backrow

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres
6 outside backs

Locks: Pick 4

O'Connell- Ireland simply don't have a player with a greater work rate. His work in the offensive and defensive maul is simply invaluable. His contribution to offensive and defensive rucks is enormous. This is before you look at his work at set piece and restart and his leadership qualities.
Toner- One of the most improved players in Irish rugby over the last 4 years. He is now a very valued member of the first XV. Lineout work is obvious but the way he get around the pitch is massive and he contributes well to ruck and maul. Is a good ball player as well.
Henderson- Easily the most dynamic option we have. He is the most similar to a modern second row among our options. He is an immense ball carrier, he is seriously effective at ruck time and his defense is very strong. Can play 6. Perhaps his set piece isn't as strong as other options.
Tuohy- I'm a big Tuohy fan. He is dynamic, a good lineout operator for a lock who isn't necessarily tall. He is viscous in rucks and in defense while remaining an effective ball carrier. His injury profile is not good and referees don't seem to be his biggest fans at times.
Ryan- An immense option to have. Delighted he is back from injury. His athleticism is seriously impressive and is boosted by solid lineout work and a lot of dog around the pitch. He is great in defense and is a nuissance at ruck time. Very high work rate also.
Holland- Holland has been a Munster regular for much of the season with Ryan out. His workrate is good and he does a lot of the basics very well. He is strong and excels in the old school Munster game plan, where his maul work and 'grapple/wrestle strength' are utilised.
McCarthy- McCarthy has had another shaky season. He has been pretty hot on linespeed and strong defense but hasn't been so good when it comes to lineout work or breakdown efficiency. One would think he is not playing to his full potential currently.

Please discuss your reasons for voting before you vote as I have not put vote cancelling on and somebody's point of view may sway your decision.

Munchkin wrote:
(1)It wasn't just my perception though, Sin é. At the start of POM's international career, POM wasn't all that hot. Not someone you could say without question had a long international career ahead of him.
You say it was lucky for Henderson that he got into the squad due to injuries others picked up, which is nonsense, but then if Ferris hadn't have had his international career cut short POM would never have made the squad as a 6.
As I said, not just my perception:

From the WOC blog you linked below:

comment from WOC link:

Don’t be too generous Bueller, Ruddock has only actually started looking good at professional rugby this season. O’Mahony (deservedly) won man of the match in his first Heineken Cup match in 2011.

I suspect part of the reason Leinster fans in particular didn’t rate O’Mahony is because they don’t watch many Munster games. I’d be the first to say he has gaps in his game, and has had from day one, but it was always abundantly clear that he was a good player with a very high ceiling. That is not something the commenters of this blog would have agreed with even at the end of last season, what with their (and WoC’s, at times) genuinely bizarre obsession with the so-called “faux hard-man act” and the constant sniping about POM spending all his time “seagulling on the wing”. To them I would say, eh, if you actually watched a representative sample of Munster games, you’d realise he doesn’t usually spend time on the wing, nor does he have any discipline problems of note, so I feel reasonably safe in ignoring your opinion.

In summary, the WOC 's (run by Ulster & Leinster fans) major click bate is to 'analyse' Munster players as they know they won't get the same response if they analyse Jamie Heaslip or SOB.

(2) Henderson running around' like a mad thing'. You stated this at least a couple of times, and it's absolute nonsense. Do you honestly think Schmidt would have him in the squad if he 'ran about like a mad thing'? Truth is though, I want him running about like a mad thing, but a smart mad thing doing what he's supposed to do.

That wasn't much of a rebuff from you in response to my comment that neither Foley or Ryan come close to the player Henderson is. As much as I like Ryan and Tuohy, they are never going to be world class internationals. Henderson will be.

My point is that Henderson is never going to be a world class lock if he doesn't get to play there at club level. He reminds me a bit of Ian Madigan - all the talent in the world, but most coaches would start Paddy Jackson ahead of him while Madigan is good for a bench spot.

(3) McCarthy has had his day. Foley isn't a bad player, but no Henderson. That's what I'm saying.

Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

(4) Why is it odd? It's odd that you think it's odd. POM is doing a great job at 6, and in doing a great job there's a great balance across the backrow. More so when the backrow is POM, Henry and Heaslip. Some would argue SOB is a better player than Henry, but Henry brings a better balance to the backrow. POM is very experienced in his position now. To state the obvious; Henderson isn't. He would need to work up a bit of experience in that position for Ireland, although if one of POM or Heaslip was injured he might have a chance of starting. Then it's up to him to make the most of it. I don't see us losing POM for a while, but I do see Heaslip falling of the pace and POM being slotted in at 8, Henderson at 6. Not right now, and maybe not next season, but certainly possible. That's just looking at those players. I know others may well come in to challenge for places in the backrow, and I know Schmidt might be determined that Henderson is going to fill in for POC after the WRC.

Henry is a defensive openside and not much of a ball carrier which is what Ireland need in the backrow.
POM will never be moved to 8 - Munster have CJ Stander there (who also plays 6) and the very highly rated Jack O'Donoghue coming on stream. Henderson is very talented, but if he wants to be a top class international his best chance is as a lock.

(5) I think just about all players would have been surprised at the amount of detail applied to the training. First for the Leinster lads and then for those getting to know him since he took over as Ireland's head coach. The only reason POC wouldn't have been surprised, which is something you just invented for arguments sake, would be because Leinster players would have informed him beforehand.

Didn't Henderson say that his Ulster team mates told him about the level of detail involved? Since he was capped by Kidney (v SA), he must have been in camp with the Leinster players who would have talked about the level of detail they went into with Schmidt.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

At least no other lock has been parachuted in ahead of Foley even though POC is leaving. In fact I'd have been very surprised if POC was released from his contract if they didn't have full faith in Foley & Ryan.

POCs contract was with the IRFU not Munster so they wouldn't have much say in it if O'Connell was retiring anyways.

Pretty sure if Munster had any money they'd be in the  market for a replacement (like Henderson), mind you they have DOC contracted until 2050 so they should be ok...

Crickey, Leinster will never get a new coach if its known that the IRFU release players with no reference to their provincial coach.

Sin é wrote:
Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

He doesn't just have a higher ceiling, he has a higher current level of performances than the older player. So that's nice for him.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

He doesn't just have a higher ceiling, he has a higher current level of performances than the older player. So that's nice for him.

Well that wouldn't be hard, since Foley has been injured

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

He doesn't just have a higher ceiling, he has a higher current level of performances than the older player. So that's nice for him.

Never mind the ceiling, he has a higher floor than Foley's roof top aerial.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
(1)It wasn't just my perception though, Sin é. At the start of POM's international career, POM wasn't all that hot. Not someone you could say without question had a long international career ahead of him.
You say it was lucky for Henderson that he got into the squad due to injuries others picked up, which is nonsense, but then if Ferris hadn't have had his international career cut short POM would never have made the squad as a 6.
As I said, not just my perception:

From the WOC blog you linked below:  

comment from WOC link:

Don’t be too generous Bueller, Ruddock has only actually started looking good at professional rugby this season. O’Mahony (deservedly) won man of the match in his first Heineken Cup match in 2011.

I suspect part of the reason Leinster fans in particular didn’t rate O’Mahony is because they don’t watch many Munster games. I’d be the first to say he has gaps in his game, and has had from day one, but it was always abundantly clear that he was a good player with a very high ceiling. That is not something the commenters of this blog would have agreed with even at the end of last season, what with their (and WoC’s, at times) genuinely bizarre obsession with the so-called “faux hard-man act” and the constant sniping about POM spending all his time “seagulling on the wing”. To them I would say, eh, if you actually watched a representative sample of Munster games, you’d realise he doesn’t usually spend time on the wing, nor does he have any discipline problems of note, so I feel reasonably safe in ignoring your opinion.

(1) In summary, the WOC 's (run by  Ulster & Leinster fans) major click bate is to 'analyse' Munster players as they know they won't get the same response if they analyse Jamie Heaslip or SOB.

(2) Henderson running around' like a mad thing'. You stated this at least a couple of times, and it's absolute nonsense. Do you honestly think Schmidt would have him in the squad if he 'ran about like a mad thing'? Truth is though, I want him running about like a mad thing, but a smart mad thing doing what he's supposed to do.

That wasn't much of a rebuff from you in response to my comment that neither Foley or Ryan come close to the player Henderson is. As much as I like Ryan and Tuohy, they are never going to be world class internationals. Henderson will be.

(2) My point is that Henderson is never going to be a world class lock if he doesn't get to play there at club level. He reminds me a bit of Ian Madigan - all the talent in the world, but most coaches would start Paddy Jackson ahead of him while Madigan is good for a bench spot.

(3) McCarthy has had his day. Foley isn't a bad player, but no Henderson. That's what I'm saying.

(3) Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

(4) Why is it odd? It's odd that you think it's odd. POM is doing a great job at 6, and in doing a great job there's a great balance across the backrow. More so when the backrow is POM, Henry and Heaslip. Some would argue SOB is a better player than Henry, but Henry brings a better balance to the backrow. POM is very experienced in his position now. To state the obvious; Henderson isn't. He would need to work up a bit of experience in that position for Ireland, although if one of POM or Heaslip was injured he might have a chance of starting. Then it's up to him to make the most of it. I don't see us losing POM for a while, but I do see Heaslip falling of the pace and POM being slotted in at 8, Henderson at 6. Not right now, and maybe not next season, but certainly possible. That's just looking at those players. I know others may well come in to challenge for places in the backrow, and I know Schmidt might be determined that Henderson is going to fill in for POC after the WRC.

(4) Henry is a defensive openside and not much of a ball carrier which is what Ireland need in the backrow.
POM will never be moved to 8 - Munster have CJ Stander there (who also plays 6) and the very highly rated Jack O'Donoghue coming on stream. Henderson is very talented, but if he wants to be a top class international his best chance is as a lock.

(5) I think just about all players would have been surprised at the amount of detail applied to the training. First for the Leinster lads and then for those getting to know him since he took over as Ireland's head coach. The only reason POC wouldn't have been surprised, which is something you just invented for arguments sake, would be because Leinster players would have informed him beforehand.

(5) Didn't Henderson say that his Ulster team mates told him about the level of detail involved? Since he was capped by Kidney (v SA), he must have been in camp with the Leinster players who would have talked about the level of detail they went into with Schmidt.

(1) Ah, so it's an Ulster/Leinster conspiracy now You're a funny man, Sin é. Sure just change your argument when it suits you. Nobody minds.
If you're posting comment's of posters to the blog then so can I:

Comments: "My only grip about POM is his Munster Media Mafia, having to listen to them talk him up constantly you would wonder would Henry, McLoughlin and Ruddock have so few caps if the MMM were doing their clear sighted analysis for these three players.
He is a good young player learning to play six and as with most players Schmidt is making him a better one."

"I think we can all say that he’s absolutely nothing like David Wallace! In fairness O’Connell is hardly going to say ‘well he’s got great lineout skills and breakdown work but he’s only an average carrier’ (the truth). But fair play on a great article lads, I think ye summarised the whole situation very well. He epitomises Ireland’s transformation under Joe, and long may these performances continue. Great point re our backrow being way more effective despite the loss of our 2 best players!"

"Wally got left out of the Irish squad (and Munster squad) for years due to peoples inability to recognise raw talent and constantly looking for ‘the traditional 7′. We ended up with a few seasons of Keith Gleeson ( a great player but I think everyone could admit limited in the extreme) instead of a 7 with pace and power who proved to be one of our best 7s ever. I am glad Kidney and Schmidt havent gone down the rout e of ‘conventional wisdom’ on POM as he is not a conventional 6 but he has that extra bi tin him that can swing games. For the record if Fez and SOB were fit POM would definitely be on the bech in my opinion and we would have the second best bac-row in world rugby with an exceptional replacement to bring on if needed (across all 3 positions)."


"just for the record, POM has 3 yellow cards in his career todate (and has never been carded at international level). – I never criticised his discipline I criticised his stupid hardman routine which I found to be utterly pointless.

By the way, maybe those ‘most ignorant commentators’ weren’t so far off the mark then if they were picking him out at an early age! – Never said he didn’t have potential or talent but I did say he was brought in too raw and needed more time to accrue experience before being brought into the Irish Squad.

"P.S. You should really try and read what people write without your Munster goggles on you’ll find it a whole different world!"


(2) If he's going to be a world class lock I would agree that he would need to play in that position for Ulster. I don't know that he will be a world class lock. Henderson might be a world class blindside. His preferred position. Ulster need him at blindside and Ireland may well need him at lock. It depends on a lot of things, but not least that another player can step in as lock for Ireland.
Madigan is talented, but game management was never one of his strengths. Schmidt never really warmed to him, and neither had MOC, obviously. He isn't a better 10 than Jackson, but he is a better bench option as he covers centre and has a great boot.

(3) Henderson is a better player than Foley now. More power. More skills. Full stop.

(4) Yes, Henry does the dirty work that POM benefits from. I don't agree at all that his best chance is at lock and not blindside. His best chance will be whatever position Schmidt slots him into. There is the question mark of where he plays for Ulster, but remember that Kiss is taking over Ulster post WRC and that may well be decisive in where he plays for Ireland. The backrow is going to change sooner rather than later, and so it's also a matter of finding what the best balance is for that backrow. Time will tell.

(5) I'm not sure what your point is. I'm sure that Henderson was made aware of the level of detail prior to his joining them, as would all players, especially those involved with Ireland. Henderson had more to concentrate on than just the details required at lock. He's also a 6.

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Henderson may have a higher ceiling than Foley, but he had a lot of work do do to get to that ceiling.

He doesn't just have a higher ceiling, he has a higher current level of performances than the older player. So that's nice for him.

Well that wouldn't be hard, since Foley has been injured

Well, neither of them is actually playing at the moment, given there are no games, so perhaps try not to be so literal?

I clearly meant - "a higher current level of performances than anything the older player has ever come close to producing or ever will, ever, in any circumstances, ever."

Hendo is a better 13 than Earls.

There, I've said it.

Munchkin wrote:

(1) Ah, so it's an Ulster/Leinster conspiracy now You're a funny man, Sin é. Sure just change your argument when it suits you. Nobody minds.
If you're posting comment's of posters to the blog then so can I:

Comments: "My only grip about POM is his Munster Media Mafia, having to listen to them talk him up constantly you would wonder would Henry, McLoughlin and Ruddock have so few caps if the MMM were doing their clear sighted analysis for these three players.
He is a good young player learning to play six and as with most players Schmidt is making him a better one."

"I think we can all say that he’s absolutely nothing like David Wallace! In fairness O’Connell is hardly going to say ‘well he’s got great lineout skills and breakdown work but he’s only an average carrier’ (the truth). But fair play on a great article lads, I think ye summarised the whole situation very well. He epitomises Ireland’s transformation under Joe, and long may these performances continue. Great point re our backrow being way more effective despite the loss of our 2 best players!"

"Wally got left out of the Irish squad (and Munster squad) for years due to peoples inability to recognise raw talent and constantly looking for ‘the traditional 7′. We ended up with a few seasons of Keith Gleeson ( a great player but I think everyone could admit limited in the extreme) instead of a 7 with pace and power who proved to be one of our best 7s ever. I am glad Kidney and Schmidt havent gone down the rout e of ‘conventional wisdom’ on POM as he is not a conventional 6 but he has that extra bi tin him that can swing games. For the record if Fez and SOB were fit POM would definitely be on the bech in my opinion and we would have the second best bac-row in world rugby with an exceptional replacement to bring on if needed (across all 3 positions)."

"just for the record, POM has 3 yellow cards in his career todate (and has never been carded at international level). – I never criticised his discipline I criticised his stupid hardman routine which I found to be utterly pointless.

By the way, maybe those ‘most ignorant commentators’ weren’t so far off the mark then if they were picking him out at an early age! – Never said he didn’t have potential or talent but I did say he was brought in too raw and needed more time to accrue experience before being brought into the Irish Squad.

"P.S. You should really try and read what people write without your Munster goggles on you’ll find it a whole different world!"

To be honest I find the WoC blog amusing (though I do feel a bit sorry for them) as it must be really annoying that the pundits all love POM for what they detest him for. For the record, POM has made every team of the 6 Nations for the last two years running.

2014 comment:
His flexibility and timing to get himself in and over the ball made him a nightmare to play against all Championship. He is a great line-out operator too. His soft hands regularly go into the breakdown mangle. And if there is a chance to get his head and shoulders in and over the ball, he is in like a shot. He will be huge influence for Ireland in the next 18 months. He won't fear anyone or anything. I love a crazy thousand-yard stare man in my back row.

2015: Comment
O’Mahony in Edinburgh carried enough to be the headline act but the Heaslip tackle again denied him the airtime. But he topped and tailed this tournament with his excellence. And what a player to have alongside you.
If all the wild horsemen of the apocalypse came around the corner he would charge straight back at them.

(3) Henderson is a better player than Foley now. More power. More skills. Full stop.

He isn't a better lock. What you are claiming has saying that Cian Healy is a better player than Sean O'Brien.

(4) Yes, Henry does the dirty work that POM benefits from. I don't agree at all that his best chance is at lock and not blindside. His best chance will be whatever position Schmidt slots him into. There is the question mark of where he plays for Ulster, but remember that Kiss is taking over Ulster post WRC and that may well be decisive in where he plays for Ireland. The backrow is going to change sooner rather than later, and so it's also a matter of finding what the best balance is for that backrow. Time will tell.

Really? This is what the BBC had to say about him in the 2014 6Ns (naming him in Team of the Tournament).
BBC: BLIND-SIDE FLANKER - PETER O'MAHONY (Ireland) (2014)
Despite the claims of Wales' Dan Lydiate (who successfully made 66 tackles out of 66) O'Mahony's work at the breakdown, allied to his drive and ferocious workrate, earns him the six shirt for 2014. The Munster captain is the latest combative forward to roll off the province's seemingly never-ending production line and was at the centre of the Irish effort that took them to the title.
Did you know? O'Mahony won the most turnovers - seven - despite missing one game through injury.

Comments from Rugby World: Peter O’Mahony (Ire)
O’Mahony brings some old-fashioned ‘dog’ to the back row. He is distinctly unpleasant to play against, a nuisance at the breakdown and an underrated ball carrier. Munsterman O’Mahony has an incredible workrate that bears comparison with Richard Hill.
Read more at http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/italy/six-nations-team-of-the-tournament-44130#x6ILghKXp80GclRe.

There are plenty of similar type reviews from both British & French press.

(5) I'm not sure what your point is. I'm sure that Henderson was made aware of the level of detail prior to his joining them, as would all players, especially those involved with Ireland. Henderson had more to concentrate on than just the details required at lock. He's also a 6.

Never mind. it was a comment to Munchin who thought that POC would have known about the level of detail required by talking to the Leinster Players!

"Never mind. it was a comment to Munchin who thought that POC would have known about the level of detail required by talking to the Leinster Players!"

You do know it was Munchkin (Me) you were replying too?

Why wouldn't POC have known about the level of detail required by talking to Leinster players? It wasn't a secret that Schmidt was all about the detail, and it isn't as if they don't meet up at training for internationals.
Maybe you think that letting slip about the level of detail would have given away all their secrets somehow?

POC to his Munster brethren - "Right lads. Believe it or not one of the ladyboys has let slip that Schmidt is all about the detail! That tells us all we need to know now. Knowing this deeply held secret is the key to us winning all the games we play against them from here on in!!!

Munster team -

Munchkin, you made the point that POC had an advantage about knowing the level of detail that Schmidt liked because the Leinster players would have told him and excusing Henderson for not knowing this because he wouldn't know any Leinster or Ulster players to tell him about his attention to detail.

I'm not going to wade into the wider ripples of your debate with Munchkin, Sin, but Iain Henderson is a much better lock than Dave Foley.

I understand you like Dave Foley. I do too. Good player. Better than McCarthy, Stevenson, DOC and Douglas, if his form of last season is typical.

But everyone else in Ireland thinks Hendo is a better lock than Dave Foley, including Joe Schmidt.

Sorry man. Them's the breaks.

Don Alfonso wrote:I'm not going to wade into the wider ripples of your debate with Munchkin, Sin, but Iain Henderson is a much better lock than Dave Foley.

I understand you like Dave Foley. I do too. Good player. Better than McCarthy, Stevenson, DOC and Douglas, if his form of last season is typical.

But everyone else in Ireland thinks Hendo is a better lock than Dave Foley, including Joe Schmidt.

Sorry man. Them's the breaks.

Ah ... thinks that he is a better lock.

Any evidence to back up this thinking?

His selection ahead of Foley?

Don Alfonso wrote:His selection ahead of Foley?

When?

Six Nations 2014?

Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Also worth mulling over -

Unless injured, Iain Henderson is going to England to play rugby for Ireland at the 2015 Rugby World Cup.

Barring injury, Dave Foley will be in Ireland, playing for his provincial team, Munster.

Sin é wrote:Munchkin, you made the point that POC had an advantage about knowing the level of detail that Schmidt liked because the Leinster players would have told him and excusing Henderson for not knowing this because he wouldn't know any Leinster or Ulster players   to tell him about his attention to detail.

No I didn't. You have completely made that up. I have never stated that POC had an advantage over Henderson as far as knowing the detail is concerned.
Neither did I excuse Henderson for not knowing because he wouldn't know any Leinster players! Stop inventing things that you would have liked me to say. Maybe it's the heat, eh?

Here is the context of the conversation:

Me - "What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man....."

You - "Nope, Henderson said he was surprised at the amount of detail/analysis he had to do. At a guess, I say POC wasn't too surprised at the amount of analysis/detail that has to be done to compete at the top."

I wouldn't be making those sort of excuses for Henderson because I don't believe them. I have already posted Hendersons comments on the detail, and those comments absolutely refute your claims of him 'not doing the work', 'not knowing the detail'.

The argument was over at that point, but you simply refuse to acknowledge or concede.

I won

The real embarrassment is that POC is there instead of Lewis Stevenson. Joe needs to stop playing favourites and allow Paul to step aside for the younger man.

Don Alfonso wrote:Six Nations 2014?

Henderson substituted once for lock (first game v Scotland when POC was a late withdrawal because of a stomack bug) and Tuohy started instead of him. He was subbed in for Toner at 73 mins.

Flanker v England - Henderson for POM at 69 mins.
Didn't make the match day 23 versus Wales - Tuohy was the lock.
Flanker v Italy. He started, with Ruddock coming on for him at 53 minutes.
Flanker v France - He came on for POM at 63 mins (POM was carrying a shoulder injury he picked up against England)

From my calculations he played all of 7 minutes at lock in the 2014 6Ns (v Scotland).

From that evidence, Schmidt does not see him as a lock.

Which is a travesty really, Don. Have to feel for big Lewis being treated so unfairly, but that's what Schmidt having his favourites does. Rob Ireland of its best and brightest. Stevenson and McComb. What could have been

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munchkin, you made the point that POC had an advantage about knowing the level of detail that Schmidt liked because the Leinster players would have told him and excusing Henderson for not knowing this because he wouldn't know any Leinster or Ulster players   to tell him about his attention to detail.

No I didn't. You have completely made that up. I have never stated that POC had an advantage over Henderson as far as knowing the detail is concerned.
Neither did I excuse Henderson for not knowing because he wouldn't know any Leinster players! Stop inventing things that you would have liked me to say. Maybe it's the heat, eh?

Here is the context of the conversation:

Me - "What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man....."

You - "Nope, Henderson said he was surprised at the amount of detail/analysis he had to do. At a guess, I say POC wasn't too surprised at the amount of analysis/detail that has to be done to compete at the top."

I wouldn't be making those sort of excuses for Henderson because I don't believe them. I have already posted Hendersons comments on the detail, and those comments absolutely refute your claims of him 'not doing the work', 'not knowing the detail'.

The argument was over at that point, but you simply refuse to acknowledge or concede.

I won

I note you left this bit out:

You: 5) I think just about all players would have been surprised at the amount of detail applied to the training. First for the Leinster lads and then for those getting to know him since he took over as Ireland's head coach. The only reason POC wouldn't have been surprised, which is something you just invented for arguments sake, would be because Leinster players would have informed him beforehand.

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munchkin, you made the point that POC had an advantage about knowing the level of detail that Schmidt liked because the Leinster players would have told him and excusing Henderson for not knowing this because he wouldn't know any Leinster or Ulster players   to tell him about his attention to detail.

No I didn't. You have completely made that up. I have never stated that POC had an advantage over Henderson as far as knowing the detail is concerned.
Neither did I excuse Henderson for not knowing because he wouldn't know any Leinster players! Stop inventing things that you would have liked me to say. Maybe it's the heat, eh?

Here is the context of the conversation:

Me - "What sort of argument is that? You're digging up something you happened to witness POC doing possibly a decade ago, and using it as evidence that Henderson isn't doing the work? Good grief man....."

You - "Nope, Henderson said he was surprised at the amount of detail/analysis he had to do. At a guess, I say POC wasn't too surprised at the amount of analysis/detail that has to be done to compete at the top."

I wouldn't be making those sort of excuses for Henderson because I don't believe them. I have already posted Hendersons comments on the detail, and those comments absolutely refute your claims of him 'not doing the work', 'not knowing the detail'.

The argument was over at that point, but you simply refuse to acknowledge or concede.

I won

I note you left this bit out:

You:  5) I think just about all players would have been surprised at the amount of detail applied to the training. First for the Leinster lads and then for those getting to know him since he took over as Ireland's head coach. The only reason POC wouldn't have been surprised, which is something you just invented for arguments sake, would be because Leinster players would have informed him beforehand.

Enough with the conspiracy theories. I left it out because it wasn't worth adding in. You missed this bit, "....which is something you just invented for arguments sake....". So I was obviously, not so obvious for some, speaking hypothetically if indeed POC was not surprised by the amount of detail involved in Schmidts training sessions, and I was obviously speaking of Schmidts requirement for attention to detail, not POCs personal work ethos. If POC knew about Schmidts requirement for attention to detail before actually having worked with Schmidt, then POC will have learned that outside of personal experience....

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Yea, you up in Ulster would all know about players made of glass! As a matter of interest who was the last home grown lock that Ulster would have produced? Matt McCullough?

Extremely relevant and mature, Sin.

What does that have to do with Henderson being better than Foley?

Nothing. I suppose you want to move on from that, though.

Don Alfonso wrote:Extremely relevant and mature, Sin.

What does that have to do with Henderson being better than Foley?

Nothing. I suppose you want to move on from that, though.

No, I'd like to go back and discuss Henderson's 7 international minutes experience of playing lock in the 2014 6Ns.

Sure it would be more fun to discuss Foley's 2 caps for Ireland. One start against Georgia and one off the bench against Australia. Impressive international record for a 27 year old Lock, but then Locks come into their own just at his age, according to Schmidt.
Small wonder he is being talked up as future world class

Henderson may just hang his international boots up with such competition.

P.s Earls will be breaking through at outside centre very soon. Great to such a young promising talent coming up the through the ranks.

Think I've said enough

Munchkin wrote:Sure it would be more fun to discuss Foley's 2 caps for Ireland. One start against Georgia and one off the bench against Australia. Impressive international record for a 27 year old Lock, but then Locks come into their own just at his age, according to Schmidt.
Small wonder he is being talked up as future world class

Henderson may just hang his international boots up with such competition.

P.s Earls will be breaking through at outside centre very soon. Great to such a young promising talent coming up the through the ranks.

Think I've said enough

Yep, Man of the Match v Georgia. Schmidt obviously liked what he saw as he had him on the bench v Australia for 20 minutes. Hendo got 7 minutes v Scotland last season as a lock.

You do realise of course that Earls has more than double the international caps at centre that Jared Payne has . Payne is 29

Earl's is lucky Payne wasn't born here or he wouldn't have any caps at all.

rodders wrote:Earl's is lucky Payne wasn't born here or he wouldn't have any caps at all.

Didn't know Payne played on the wing as well.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Earl's is lucky Payne wasn't born here or he wouldn't have any caps at all.

Didn't know Payne played on the wing as well.

Yup played their quite a bit for the blues so anything Earls can do Payne can do better... but then that wouldn't be hard.... he's a better lock than Foley too.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Earl's is lucky Payne wasn't born here or he wouldn't have any caps at all.

Didn't know Payne played on the wing as well.

Yup played their quite a bit for the blues so anything Earls can do Payne can do better... but then that wouldn't be hard.... he's a better lock than Foley too.

So who would he have displaced? Bowe or Trimble for Ulster?

Sin é wrote:
You do realise of course that Earls has more than double the international caps at centre that Jared Payne has . Payne is 29

Yes. We also realise that Jared Payne only became IQ last November.

Since then, he has earned 6 caps in the centre. How many has Earls earned in that time, since it has become possible to pick Payne over him? One, for the Wolfhounds?

Of course, like Foley, he has the ever-reliable "Munsterman's excuse" - he was injured - for some of the time. Interesting that he came back from injury about the same time as Henderson, and Iain featured in the Six Nations as a lock, and Earls didn't feature at all.

He was just dropped, wasn't he, from this year's Six Nations Squad?

ANYWAY - that's definitely me done this time.

Good luck, Sin, me aul' muckeroo.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Sure it would be more fun to discuss Foley's 2 caps for Ireland. One start against Georgia and one off the bench against Australia. Impressive international record for a 27 year old Lock, but then Locks come into their own just at his age, according to Schmidt.
Small wonder he is being talked up as future world class

Henderson may just hang his international boots up with such competition.

P.s Earls will be breaking through at outside centre very soon. Great to such a young promising talent coming up the through the ranks.

Think I've said enough

Yep, Man of the Match v Georgia. Schmidt obviously liked what he saw as he had him on the bench v Australia for 20 minutes. Hendo got 7 minutes v Scotland last season as a lock.

You do realise of course that Earls has more than double the international caps at centre that Jared Payne has . Payne is 29

7 (I read 6) minutes as a Lock although he did play all those games, starting against Italy, including the epic against France. That fact, the fact that Henderson was also picked for 2015 6N's, the fact that he is in the WRC training squad and the fact that Foley has been excluded (he has been injured but then so has Trimble and he's included) has to mean that Schmidt prefers Foley over Henderson

Earls is racking up the caps v Payne. Schmidt loves Earls at centre (That has to be why Earls has been picked ahead of Payne at centre for 6N's) The young Earls (28 in October) will most definitely be a starter at outside centre throughout the WRC campaign. It's a no brainer

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Yea, you up in Ulster would all know about players made of glass! As a matter of interest who was the last home grown lock that Ulster would have produced? Matt McCullough?

Are you serious? Dropping that in in a discussion about Iain Henderson?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
You do realise of course that Earls has more than double the international caps at centre that Jared Payne has . Payne is 29

Yes. We also realise that Jared Payne only became IQ last November.

Since then, he has earned 6 caps in the centre. How many has Earls earned in that time, since it has become possible to pick Payne over him? One, for the Wolfhounds?

Of course, like Foley, he has the ever-reliable "Munsterman's excuse" - he was injured - for some of the time. Interesting that he came back from injury about the same time as Henderson, and Iain featured in the Six Nations as a lock, and Earls didn't feature at all.

He was just dropped, wasn't he, from this year's Six Nations Squad?

Only fair to give Payne a run of games in the centre since he has played so little in that position and is new to international rugby - watch from 1.09 to see why he needs the time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf3HExgB68U

Earls has 39 international caps which isn't bad at 27 considering he just missed 2 years of international rugby through injury.

And no, he wasn't dropped from the 6Ns squad.

I keep telling you that every lock in the country is injured - completely different situation to the backs where there were several coming back from injury. Of course you are conveniently forgetting that Foley was in the initial 6Ns squad until he broke his wrist at the end of January. Henderson is probably a bit lucky there

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Yea, you up in Ulster would all know about players made of glass! As a matter of interest who was the last home grown lock that Ulster would have produced? Matt McCullough?

Are you serious? Dropping that in in a discussion about Iain Henderson?

Whats wrong with saying that? What has Matt McCullough done that you are shocked at him being mentioning. Some of you Ulster boys brought up how Munster had brought in about 10 centres since 2005 which seemed to lend itself to the conclusion that Keith Earls wasn't a centre. Well, Ulster have brought in a similar number of locks in the last while and there should be question marks about Ulster's capacity to develop locks.

I think you have missed the point

Munchkin wrote:I think you have missed the point

That would be a positive. Thats why I asked 'what is wrong with saying that'?

Fair enough, but then maybe you didn't really miss the point.

Anyway, it's just a wee bit of banter. Until we see who is selected for the first test anyway

Sin é wrote:Some of you Ulster boys brought up how Munster had brought in about 10 centres since 2005 which seemed to lend itself to the conclusion that Keith Earls wasn't a centre.

Well that and the fact he can't pass or tackle....

I for one am very much enjoying Joe's oldest fan Sin e, defend Joe's position on the age locks come to fruition... Sin e, Joe isn't infallible you know!

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Yea, you up in Ulster would all know about players made of glass! As a matter of interest who was the last home grown lock that Ulster would have produced? Matt McCullough?

Are you serious? Dropping that in in a discussion about Iain Henderson?

Whats wrong with saying that? What has Matt McCullough done that you are shocked at him being mentioning. Some of you Ulster boys brought up how Munster had brought in about 10 centres since 2005 which seemed to lend itself to the conclusion that Keith Earls wasn't a centre. Well, Ulster have brought in a similar number of locks in the last while and there should be question marks about Ulster's capacity to develop locks.

Well, there are massive question marks about Ulsters ability to develop locks in the last 10 years or so and I don't think anyone will dispute that. All forwards in fact. We have produced many excellent backs, we are actually producing a surplus of outside backs. But the academy is not producing either the quality or the quantity of forwards we need. So there are as many question marks about our forwards production as there are about Munsters ability to produce backs.

What is bizarre is that you cite Matt McCullough as the last lock to be developed by Ulster in a conversation about the most recent lock developed by Ulster, Iain Henderson. As in; it is bizarre you are asking who was the last lock we produced in a conversation about the most recent lock we produced. Thats what I'm not getting.

Ulster have developed locks but they haven't turned out to be good enough (much like the Munster backs). Matt McCullough was as much a backrow as a lock so should he be counted anyway (?) and scraping the barrel since has yielded Stevenson, Caldwell and Sandford...

Hmmm, so then it will probably be POC, Toner, Henderson and Touhy (with an outside chance to Ryan nipping Touhy's spot depending on how things go in camp).

Presume the ability for peripheral locks to cover back row comes into even closer focus should anything happen to POM or SOB, both of whom have had plenty of injuries the last while.

Thanks for clarifying that over the past 3 pages of this thread without decending to provincial bickering.

So this thread is on locks and there is already fightin' over backrows and centres....... let's try to keep it friendly.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Henderson was first capped in 2012.  At age 20.

Foley got his first Emerging Ireland cap in 2013. Three days before his 25th birthday. His first senior cap came last year, 2014. He was 26. Iain Henderson was injured at that time.

Iain Henderson has 17 caps.

Dave Foley has 2.

If what you can extrapolate from that is that Dave Foley is preferred to Iain Henderson, then I would be fascinated to know how.

Actually, no. I wouldn't.

Yep, Foley got his first cap for Ireland v Georgia as a lock and he was MOTM.
He was on the bench v. Australia and Schmidt actually brought him on for Toner at 60 minutes, giving him 20 minutes against a top side as a lock.

For the record, Foley dislocated his shoulder in early March 2012 and had only 3 starts for Munster in 12-13 season. He broke his wrist  being selected for the 6Ns training squad last January and has been out since then.

Hmmmm. Made of glass on top of everything else.

Yea, you up in Ulster would all know about players made of glass! As a matter of interest who was the last home grown lock that Ulster would have produced? Matt McCullough?

Are you serious? Dropping that in in a discussion about Iain Henderson?

Whats wrong with saying that? What has Matt McCullough done that you are shocked at him being mentioning. Some of you Ulster boys brought up how Munster had brought in about 10 centres since 2005 which seemed to lend itself to the conclusion that Keith Earls wasn't a centre. Well, Ulster have brought in a similar number of locks in the last while and there should be question marks about Ulster's capacity to develop locks.

Well, there are massive question marks about Ulsters ability to develop locks in the last 10 years or so and I don't think anyone will dispute that. All forwards in fact. We have produced many excellent backs, we are actually producing a surplus of outside backs. But the academy is not producing either the quality or the quantity of forwards we need. So there are as many question marks about our forwards production as there are about Munsters ability to produce backs.

What is bizarre is that you cite Matt McCullough as the last lock to be developed by Ulster in a conversation about the most recent lock developed by Ulster, Iain Henderson. As in; it is bizarre you are asking who was the last lock we produced in a conversation about the most recent lock we produced. Thats what I'm not getting.

I was trying to think of a local lock who would have been a role model and drive standards in training. If Henderson had POC every day at training, he might be a better lock now. He probably got his inspiration from Stephen Ferris and thats why he is a better backrow.