Irish RWC: Pick your Locks

First topic message reminder :

Hi all,

Haven't posted here in a long time tbh but I did this for the last world cup and thought it would be good to do again.
I want to get a sense of what the Irish (and non-Irish) 606ers think the Irish squad should be.

I am taking it as near guaranteed that there will be a 17-14 split
6 props
3 hookers
4 locks
4 backrow

3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres
6 outside backs

Locks: Pick 4

O'Connell- Ireland simply don't have a player with a greater work rate. His work in the offensive and defensive maul is simply invaluable. His contribution to offensive and defensive rucks is enormous. This is before you look at his work at set piece and restart and his leadership qualities.
Toner- One of the most improved players in Irish rugby over the last 4 years. He is now a very valued member of the first XV. Lineout work is obvious but the way he get around the pitch is massive and he contributes well to ruck and maul. Is a good ball player as well.
Henderson- Easily the most dynamic option we have. He is the most similar to a modern second row among our options. He is an immense ball carrier, he is seriously effective at ruck time and his defense is very strong. Can play 6. Perhaps his set piece isn't as strong as other options.
Tuohy- I'm a big Tuohy fan. He is dynamic, a good lineout operator for a lock who isn't necessarily tall. He is viscous in rucks and in defense while remaining an effective ball carrier. His injury profile is not good and referees don't seem to be his biggest fans at times.
Ryan- An immense option to have. Delighted he is back from injury. His athleticism is seriously impressive and is boosted by solid lineout work and a lot of dog around the pitch. He is great in defense and is a nuissance at ruck time. Very high work rate also.
Holland- Holland has been a Munster regular for much of the season with Ryan out. His workrate is good and he does a lot of the basics very well. He is strong and excels in the old school Munster game plan, where his maul work and 'grapple/wrestle strength' are utilised.
McCarthy- McCarthy has had another shaky season. He has been pretty hot on linespeed and strong defense but hasn't been so good when it comes to lineout work or breakdown efficiency. One would think he is not playing to his full potential currently.

Please discuss your reasons for voting before you vote as I have not put vote cancelling on and somebody's point of view may sway your decision.

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster have developed locks but they haven't turned out to be good enough (much like the Munster backs). Matt McCullough was as much a backrow as a lock so should he be counted anyway (?) and scraping the barrel since has yielded Stevenson, Caldwell and Sandford...

By the way you are going on, you'd swear Peter Stringer, Ronan O'Gara, Tomas O'Leary, Conor Murray, Keith Earls & Simon Zebo didn't come through the ranks in Munster. Honourable mention to Barry Murphy (who is 32 now) who was a fine centre.

IMO, the reason why Munster has had problems with developing backs is because the competitiveness of GAA in Munster for players. Every county is competitive and have a chance of winning something whereas Sean O'Brien comes from a county that has never won anything and is never likely to.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster have developed locks but they haven't turned out to be good enough (much like the Munster backs). Matt McCullough was as much a backrow as a lock so should he be counted anyway (?) and scraping the barrel since has yielded Stevenson, Caldwell and Sandford...

By the way you are going on, you'd swear Peter Stringer, Ronan O'Gara, Tomas O'Leary, Conor Murray, Keith Earls & Simon Zebo didn't come through the ranks in Munster. Honourable mention to Barry Murphy (who is 32 now) who was a fine centre.

With respect none of those guys would be up there with the likes of Felix Jones.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/shane-jennings-iain-henderson-a-threat-to-peter-omahony-world-cup-start-spot-345368.html?

Interessant.

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/shane-jennings-iain-henderson-a-threat-to-peter-omahony-world-cup-start-spot-345368.html?

Interessant.

I like the balance of the back row at the minute, but Henderson is a great option coming off the bench. Great to have two very physical options, both of whom excel in some areas but don't have real weaknesses in their games either.

Marshes wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/shane-jennings-iain-henderson-a-threat-to-peter-omahony-world-cup-start-spot-345368.html?

Interessant.

I like the balance of the back row at the minute, but Henderson is a great option coming off the bench. Great to have two very physical options, both of whom excel in some areas but don't have real weaknesses in their games either.

In fairness, I would say Henderson's discipline can be a weakness, although it improved over the course of the season gone. But I think he will become a better player than POM.

Marshes wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/shane-jennings-iain-henderson-a-threat-to-peter-omahony-world-cup-start-spot-345368.html?

Interessant.

I like the balance of the back row at the minute, but Henderson is a great option coming off the bench. Great to have two very physical options, both of whom excel in some areas but don't have real weaknesses in their games either.

Jennings seems to be questioning POM's fitness though.

“Pete is a quality player and he competes well at the lineout, but he is a bit bashed up and he is stuck together with sticky tape,” said Jennings at the TV3 HD studio to mark the 50 days to go to the Rugby World Cup.

Don Alfonso wrote:But I think he will become a better player than POM.

Agreed.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/shane-jennings-iain-henderson-a-threat-to-peter-omahony-world-cup-start-spot-345368.html?

Interessant.

I like the balance of the back row at the minute, but Henderson is a great option coming off the bench. Great to have two very physical options, both of whom excel in some areas but don't have real weaknesses in their games either.

In fairness, I would say Henderson's discipline can be a weakness, although it  improved over the course of the season gone. But I think he will become a better player than POM.

His discipline needs to improve a lot. He got carded for launching into a player when there was absolutely no need to do it - he was just reckless. Hopefully he will grow out of that.

As for the comments about him being a better player than POM - they are very different kinds of players, but I don't think a backrow of Henderson, SOB & Heaslip would work too well. You'd need a more groundhog 7 for that to work and we don't really have any of those.

Are you referring to the card that was - uniquely for the Pro!2 - overturned? It was against Munster, so I'm guessing that is the one you're thinking of.

Anyway, no-one has said that he is better than POM. Only that he will be.

You do have a point on the back row balance. Although Ferris/O'Brien/Heaslip were pretty good.

Don Alfonso wrote:Are you referring to the card that was - uniquely for the Pro!2 - overturned? It was against Munster, so I'm guessing that is the one you're thinking of.

Anyway, no-one has said that he is better than POM. Only that he will be.

You do have a point on the back row balance. Although Ferris/O'Brien/Heaslip were pretty good.

Yes. Ignoring the card, it was a headless thing to do. It wasn't necessary. He wasn't thinking.

Ferris/O'Brien/Heaslip had one good game together (v Australia). That combination only lasted for about 5 or 6 games and Ireland lost most of them. One of the games that was won was when POM started at 7 with Ferris at 6 and Heaslip at 8.

Ferris, Wally, Heaslip was a pretty awesome backrow though.

By the way, POM is managed by Horizon, the people who got 25+ million from Rory McIlroy. He is their only rugby player.

£25m+? The report I had read assumed between £8m and £20m. That's the firm of which Mcilroy claimed 'his interests were not being properly looked after and that he had signed an “unconscionable” deal'.

Sooooooooooo........Jennings would like Henderson to play at 6    Well I never.....

Hopefully POM fully recovers from his ills and is fully fit come the RWC. He did look jaded in his last few games of the season, but I put most of that down to fatigue. Hardly surprising considering the physical effort he invests in so many games.

We need a fit and firing POM for the RWC.

Sin é, would you ever let the Henderson challenge on a Munster player go. I know, I know...how very dare he...but it's done now.

Let it go  

$25m + costs according to Irish Times. POM has a flashy new website http://www.peteromahony.ie/ and of course he has just signed a new 3 year deal.

POM had a good 6Ns (I think he probably made every team of the 6Ns). He missed the final of the Pro12 with a hip injury (though I think he may have been carrying that for a couple of games). I hate to hear about players having hip injuries.

As for Henderson's discipline. It was just a stupid penalty to give away and not necessary. If it makes you feel better, Munster's Cronin can give away stupid late penalties as well which I think would rule him out until he get a bit more cop on.

Sin é wrote:POM has a flashy new website http://www.peteromahony.ie/  

These Munster lads, all flash, no substance... Or is it HTML5?

Considering the currency conversion rates I suppose both articles are close enough.

POM certainly looked jaded v Ulster and I think that was before he picked up the hip injury during training. I haven't read anything coming out of the Ireland camp about him having an issue with the hip, so hopefully all is well on that front. I want to see POM starting the big games with Henderson coming off the bench. If both are injury free that's what I expect will happen.

With regards to penalties I'm not concerned about Henderson at all. He isn't a penalty machine, and some of the penalties awarded against him were very harsh or completely wrong. I would doubt very much that Joe sees this as an issue for Henderson, and it won't be a determining factor with his place on the team.

I think it's an area he could certainly improve on though- should come with time and experience.

I think if O'Mahony comes straight back in in the form he was in in the Six Nations, he definitely starts. When he's at his best I have little doubt he takes a place. It's only an issue if he hasn't recovered from those knocks he was carrying. I'm sure Henderson will get a chance to start some games with the warm-ups and the need to rotate a bit through the group stages so lets just see how he goes. It may be he forces the issue- that competition would be good news.

We have the ability to rotate in the back row now with Henderson, Henry and Murphy all capable understudies so I'm sure we'll see that happen.

In terms of playing Henderson where he is best, is there really going to be much difference between him playing at blindside rather than at lock? In open play it isn't going to make much difference at all, they have similar roles.. in fact the only place where it is going to really be different is at the scrum, where Henderson would be very useful at blindside covering any pick-ups from the number 8 (although this rarely happens on the blindside anymore).

Overall balance within the pack is more important anyway, and one of the things I really like about the Irish pack is that most of them are adept at everything, which is probably what Schmidt is pushing for most. Look at the likes of Toner and how his game has developed since he started. Most of the pack are capable of carrying, rucking and tackling to a high standard and when required. Henderson fits right in here whether he is at blindside or at lock.

This is one of the nice examples where it isn't a question of either/or, we have 2 very good players who would compliment each other in the same pack, and probably 2 players we can actually build a pack around.

EDIT: I should note that I am talking post-RWC here, when POC retires from the international game.

Notch wrote:I think it's an area he could certainly improve on though- should come with time and experience.

I think if O'Mahony comes straight back in in the form he was in in the Six Nations, he definitely starts. When he's at his best I have little doubt he takes a place. It's only an issue if he hasn't recovered from those knocks he was carrying. I'm sure Henderson will get a chance to start some games with the warm-ups and the need to rotate a bit through the group stages so lets just see how he goes. It may be he forces the issue- that competition would be good news.

We have the ability to rotate in the back row now with Henderson, Henry and Murphy all capable understudies so I'm sure we'll see that happen.

I think he can improve, but only in the sense that he needs to be a bit more street wise and that will come with experience. As I said, some of the calls against him were either harsh or wrong. The card v ROM was harsh. The card he picked up in Edinburgh was wrong. It was never a card.

Agree on POM. If he's fit he starts. At least in the big games. Henderson should get a start, and hopefully he makes the most of his opportunities to push POM for a starting place. Schmidt may well have other ideas about where he plays though.