Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches

First topic message reminder :

Previous RWC related nonsense:
https://www.606v2.com/t58234p1000-scotland-world-cup-look-ahead-and-squad

Game 1:

  
IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Game 2:


ITALY v SCOTLAND
22 August 2015
KO: 15:00 local
Stadio Olimpico di Torino, Turin

Game 3:

  
SCOTLAND v ITALY
29 August 2015
KO: 15:15 local
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Game 4:

 
FRANCE v SCOTLAND
05 September 2015
KO: 21:00 local
Stade de France, Saint-Denis

justified sinner wrote:What are you all havering about. You sound like a bunch of Welsh villageists. This is serious international rugby, if he's the best we've got in the position then play him. Or would you rather give a player a game because 'he deserves it', because he's a young Scots laddie, that way does not win things. Sorry but have to be hard headed about this and get our best 15 on the pitch.

Rant over.

I agree, no place for sentimentality in international sport

justified sinner wrote:What are you all havering about. You sound like a bunch of Welsh villageists. This is serious international rugby, if he's the best we've got in the position then play him. Or would you rather give a player a game because 'he deserves it', because he's a young Scots laddie, that way does not win things. Sorry but have to be hard headed about this and get our best 15 on the pitch.

Rant over.

That's kind of the point though : this guy has barely played for months and has had many injuries over the years. When he has played he's been a decent enough player at SR level, but given he's never player northern hemisphere rugby and is completely untested st a higher level, if he's really the best we've got then we're screwed.

Compare that to someone like Roddy Grant who has grafted like hell for a Scottish team for many years and won MOTM awards at domestic and European level - how come John Hardie deserves a place more than him?

International rugby is built on Sentimentality, that's what makes people buy tickets, support and debate online. If you feel no sentiment toward something you aint gonna watch and the days of getting 50 million tv money are over?

If Hardie wanted to be considered he should have made the decision a few years ago. Taking him at this stage devalues the jersey.

Roddy Grant has been a very good club player for Edinburgh, but he has never persuaded any of the 4 Scotland coaches that have been around during his career that he is an international player. He is pushing 30 now and his current coach at Edinburgh only sees him as WC cover as well. It is a sad fact but if he had been good enough, he would have been capped. They don't get given out for time served.

The more pertinent question is to wonder whether he is a better option than any of the sevens that are currently in the squad, which he may be. If any of the others were coasting, then they may just have to up their games now. I don't want to see anyone in the squad who has not really earned their place, the competition can only be a good thing.

He is a decent player, be in no doubt about that and was a starter for the Highlanders when he was fit. He was unlucky to miss the end of the season after he dislocated his ankle. Maybe they want to get him over and check his fitness before committing to him. He has not come out of nowhere, we have been talking about him for a few years now, so lets see what he is like then judge.

Prothero wrote:International rugby is built on Sentimentality, that's what makes people buy tickets, support and debate online. If you feel no sentiment toward something you aint gonna watch and the days of getting 50 million tv money are over?

If Hardie wanted to be considered he should have made the decision a few years ago. Taking him at this stage devalues the jersey.

Scottish teams may be built on sentimentality, others countries prefer Pragmatism.

Rugby has moved on now, nothing will build support and sell more tickets than a winning team. Look how we felt after Glasgow won the Pro12 and they have shifted more season tickets than ever.

I have followed Scottish rugby through thin and thin and no doubt will carry on doing so. Others unfortunately just won't get the joy of watching us get humped every important match and they are the ones that will switch off.

In my opinion, this should have nothing to do with Hardie, Barclay, Cowan, Blake, or poor Roddy Grant. It's about priorities.

Do we want to win matches? I think so. To do that, we put out the best fifteen players at our disposal. Everything that distracts us from that basic principle is tacky sentimental crap.

I know how people feel about certain players; believe me, I feel the same way about James Eddie - I'd love the big man to get a Scotland cap, because Lord knows he's put in the shifts over the years. The problem? For all his effort and dedication to my club, he isn't the best in any position that he can play. His strengths are versatility and character. It sucks but, sorry Jedi, no cap for you.

I think RDW is right as well though. Hardie definitely has his potential limitations, and he hasn't played enough over the past few months.

All I'm saying is that we should get angry if he is picked in a test side ahead of someone who is either far more skillful or in far better condition. I'm willing to take this call-up and see it as a chance to see what the kid has in his arsenal, and not get too p!ssy with the process.

IanBru wrote:In my opinion, this should have nothing to do with Hardie, Barclay, Cowan, Blake, or poor Roddy Grant. It's about priorities.

Do we want to win matches? I think so. To do that, we put out the best fifteen players at our disposal. Everything that distracts us from that basic principle is tacky sentimental crap.

I know how people feel about certain players; believe me, I feel the same way about James Eddie - I'd love the big man to get a Scotland cap, because Lord knows he's put in the shifts over the years. The problem? For all his effort and dedication to my club, he isn't the best in any position that he can play. His strengths are versatility and character. It sucks but, sorry Jedi, no cap for you.

I think RDW is right as well though. Hardie definitely has his potential limitations, and he hasn't played enough over the past few months.

All I'm saying is that we should get angry if he is picked in a test side ahead of someone who is either far more skillful or in far better condition. I'm willing to take this call-up and see it as a chance to see what the kid has in his arsenal, and not get too p!ssy with the process.

That was kind of what I was trying to say as well, you just managed to say it a lot better!

He qualifies, so I don't have a problem with it.  Haven't seen a minute of him playing so can't comment on his ability but being a Kiwi I'm be surprised if he wasn't a pretty competent player.

Does seem a touch daft to have five open-sides in the extended squad, there's only four games to compare them.  Be interesting to see if everyone gets a crack or if they'll have narrowed their search by then and will look to build some continuity.

Would be very surprised if Cowan missed out considering he's started the last 9 test matches under Cotter.  I'm not convinced he's the best option at 7, a good ball-carrier and won a fair few penalties in 6 Nations but not a truly natural open-side.  

Barclay deserves a chance, not as good a carrier but arguably better at the breakdown or as a link-man and had a good season for the Scarlets.  

Watson had a strong season and I like his pace, not sure he's physical enough for the likes of SA or Samoa though.

Hardie, open-minded but quietly optimistic because he's a kiwi.

Blake, barely played any rugby and needs some time to settle at a club before playing for Scotland.

Have convinced myself, based on nothing, that both Hidalgo-Clyne and Hoyland will start.

The other side to this argument is surely that parachuting straight in from abroad runs the risk of limiting the amount of game time our talented youngsters get, which in turn puts them at risk of not fulfilling their potential. Nobody ( aside, obviously) is born international class, they need opportunities to prove themselves and develop in a high pressure environment. If Johnny McScottish-Gran keeps coming over and getting preferential treatment because, in the short term, he may appear a more proven option, then some players are never going to get the opportunities they need to reach their potential.

Someone mentioned Wales, they're a great example of the 'if they're good enough they're old enough' argument. In Scotland things are very different (although clearly better at Glasgow than Edinburgh) and we are pretty poor at getting opportunities for our young players.

My fear is that Hardie comes over here and is another contender taking match time away from Hamish Watson, who I genuinely believe has the makings of a pretty special player for Scotland, but needs opportunities.

Sentimentality over!

What it does show is that VC doesn't give a crap about anything but winning - I suppose that's a good thing...

BigGee wrote:

IanBru wrote:In my opinion, this should have nothing to do with Hardie, Barclay, Cowan, Blake, or poor Roddy Grant. It's about priorities.

Do we want to win matches? I think so. To do that, we put out the best fifteen players at our disposal. Everything that distracts us from that basic principle is tacky sentimental crap.

I know how people feel about certain players; believe me, I feel the same way about James Eddie - I'd love the big man to get a Scotland cap, because Lord knows he's put in the shifts over the years. The problem? For all his effort and dedication to my club, he isn't the best in any position that he can play. His strengths are versatility and character. It sucks but, sorry Jedi, no cap for you.

I think RDW is right as well though. Hardie definitely has his potential limitations, and he hasn't played enough over the past few months.

All I'm saying is that we should get angry if he is picked in a test side ahead of someone who is either far more skillful or in far better condition. I'm willing to take this call-up and see it as a chance to see what the kid has in his arsenal, and not get too p!ssy with the process.

That was kind of what I was trying to say as well, you just managed to say it a lot better!

I could not agree more with this.

Let's just remind ourselves, this has been brewing as a serious option since last winter:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/latest/more-kilted-kiwis-on-way-to-scottish-rugby-1-3615989
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/63529415/Scotland-chase-Southland-flanker-John-Hardie 

so whilst it's something of a surprise to us, I would be amazed if it wasn't talked about in the squad before now and it certainly cannot come as a galloping shock to any other loose forward in the current Scotland squad. A couple of things about this:

1. Like Huge Blake (my new nickname for young master Blake) before him, all that has happened is that Hardie has been called into the wider training squad so that the coaches can have a look at him. That's it. He hasn't been selected. He's just in the squad. If he's carrying the injuries that we think he might be, he won't make a match day squad. If he isn't as skilled as alternatives in his position, he won't make a match day squad. If John Barclay employs a couple of heavies to make sure he has 'a little accident', he won't make a match day squad. Everyone got their Mike Coman-print thongs in a knot about Blake coming. Has that kid even been near a field yet? Has he been 'preferred' to home grown journeymen? Nope.

2. Sport is a meritocracy and Cotter's job is to win matches. That's where this begins and ends. I would like nothing more than grafters like Grant and Eddie to get their chance but simply put, not everyone is going to get the chance and that's as it should be. That's what professional athletes sign up for and if they don't believe that they need to be better in their position than the next guy to get the shirt, they are in the wrong line of work.

3. I want the best Scotland team to take the field. We have already read reports which state that Hardie was interested in coming before but was prevented by his contract terms. Do people not believe this or is it just not considered important? I have no doubt whatsoever that various rent-a-quote ex-players will now pop up bemoaning the same international rules as everyone else has to abide by. Absolutely valid views, all of them, and utterly utterly pointless. Everyone is in the same boat.

4. Cotter is a smart guy. In his very limited press release, he made a point of saying that the back row is already "fiercely contested" and it is very obvious he knows how it could look if Hardie walks straight into a side.

The prospect of Hardie playing 40 minutes of a warm up game? A very interesting one and I want to see what he's got. Let's be in no doubt that he is (injuries notwithstanding) a quality player who has been a stalwart for his side. He has played something in the region of 1,000 minutes of Super Rugby per season since he joined them. You don't get to do that without holding your own. I am hoping for another Du Preez or Strauss.

I am not convinced by Cowan as I have mentioned on these boards many times.

In other news, Big T has not been selected for Australia this weekend.

My big concern about Hardie is his injury record and lack of form. Since he made his debut for the highlanders he has missed nearly 50 super rugby games through various injuries.
He hasn't played consistently week in week out for nearly 2 years now and it seems he is a little like Ross Rennie that his body just isn't up to taking a beating week in week out.
On form he is a very good player but I wouldn't say he is any better than Barclay & possibly only marginally better than Watson but with Watson fast improving that gap will be narrowing. He is similar size to Watson as well.
If he comes over and gets a few games under his belt and performs well and proves to be the best openside then fair enough but I do have serious doubts he will be up to it.

RDW_Scotland wrote:In other news, Big T has not been selected for Australia this weekend.

Being earmarked for next weeks games against Argentina from what I am hearing.

I think part of the issue here is the timing of the announcement. 

It comes across as if Hardie was waiting for the NZ squad to be picked, on finding out he ain't selected, he's turns tail and comes limping to Scotland to see if we'll take him.

tigertattie wrote:I think part of the issue here is the timing of the announcement. 

It comes across as if Hardie was waiting for the NZ squad to be picked, on finding out he ain't selected, he's turns tail and comes limping to Scotland to see if we'll take him.

Or the completion of the Highlanders Super Rugby season which was last week.

cp10 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I think part of the issue here is the timing of the announcement. 

It comes across as if Hardie was waiting for the NZ squad to be picked, on finding out he ain't selected, he's turns tail and comes limping to Scotland to see if we'll take him.

Or the completion of the Highlanders Super Rugby season which was last week.

Yes, this was why I presume they waited until now.

I think there are perfectly good rugby reasons not to include Hardie. He's never played with or met properly a single member of the Scotland squad. He's not familiar with our systems or the coaches. Do we honestly think a couple months training, and 40 minutes of warm-up game, are enough for him to forge a combination that will be able to compete at the World Cup?

We have discussed Strauss at length. One of the reasons Strauss was perhaps an easier sell was because he's been in the country for three years and has played with half the squad, including captaining them on occassion.

I do not believe the World Cup is the appropriate forum to be giving debuts to players, particularly players who have never played with any other players in the squad. This squad is about preparing for the World Cup. Each member of this squad should therefore be in contention to make the final cut. Are we seriously saying that Hardie is in contention to take a spot ahead of Barclay, Cowan or Watson? Based on what? I do not think you can pick a player based on how they perform in training, or in a pre-World Cup warm-up match (hardly Test match intensity). We can cut some slack for Strauss and Nel. They have already shown on the pitch that they can out perform their rivals for the jersey, and they have shown serious committment to Scottish rugby. Who is to say that if Hardie doesn't make the cut that he'll just stay out in NZ. Does he even want to play for Scotland, or is this just about playing in a World Cup?

The political reasons for omitting Hardie are both obvious and overwhelming. I personally think the rugby reasons are equally as strong, and all this guff about "let's just take a look at him" are a red herring. This is a World Cup training squad, the period for "let's just take a look at our options" is past. Dreadful time in the cycle to be doing this. Hate the decision. Absolutely hate it!

MAKE HIM CAPTAIN.....

The Hardie situation, like the Blake one, would seem to suggest a classic SRU right hand left hand non-recognition two step.

"You asked us to find you good players who might be able to play for Scotland and get them over here. So we got you two really good players. What's your problem?"

"Who pays their wages? Where do we put them? Glasgow have at least six good sevens and back row is the one area where Edinburgh actually have an embarrassment of riches, as opposed to the other areas where they are just an embarrassment. "

"I think I see what you're getting at. But did you not say we needed lots of players for ...what was the phrase you used? Oh yes the third team. Now where are they going to be based, again?"

#HardieForCaptain

I'm not sure you can say that "there are perfectly good rugby reasons not to include Hardie" when we literally have no idea what his current fitness is like.

One must go back to the main point which is that if Hardie is not fit, he will not get chosen from the outset. The other obvious point is the one which FES and others have already made which is that his lack of continuity with, and knowledge of, his Scotland team mates absolutely has to count against him - to say nothing of his inexperience in NH rugby which we all know is not the same as Super Rugby at all. The odds are overwhelmingly against him featuring in the national side this year.

However, any suggestion that he should not join the squad to let the coaches at least meet with him cannot be a suggestion based on rugby reasons - the rationale can only be political. The Scotland team has nothing to lose by at least seeing the player - unless we think that Cotter has no objectivity, why should we fear Hardie entering the squad - if only to confirm that our current crop of opensides is better than him?

Seems to me that what people are really worried about is Hardie potentially being able to prove that he does have something which is worth a look at.

And while we're talking nonsense....

I see Mr Bru is still in possession of his stones.

If you doubt this then go look at the Warriors home page. Any man who would post a piccie of himself in that manliest of forums drinking from an official Wimbledon mug must have some cojones on him.

George Carlin wrote: #HardieForCaptain



However, any suggestion that he should not join the squad to let the coaches at least meet with him cannot be a suggestion based on rugby reasons - the rationale can only be political. The Scotland team has nothing to lose by at least seeing the player - unless we think that Cotter has no objectivity, why should we fear Hardie entering the squad - if only to confirm that our current crop of opensides is better than him?

Seems to me that what people are really worried about is Hardie potentially being able to prove that he does have something which is worth a look at.

Let's play Devil's Advocate here...

Cowan The jury is very much still out on him, personally I think he gives away far too many penalties and the step up is "one step beyond". Continuing with him would be Madness.

Blake If he is that good why aren't Glagow and The Luvvies going all Kramer vs Kramer for him?

Watson Lots of potential, but probably for the next World Cup.

Barclay The real Mr AP in the squad? Is he too long in the tooth now. Let's face it looking good in the Scaaahlets isn't really the same as cutting it at a World Cup.

Seen from that perspective, looking at Kier Hardie is no bad thing.

George Carlin wrote: #HardieForCaptain

I'm not sure you can say that "there are perfectly good rugby reasons not to include Hardie" when we literally have no idea what his current fitness is like.

Another reason right there. The squad is in the middle of preparations for a tournament, and he has missed those preparations. For crying out loud, he hasn't even attended the full preparation training for the World Cup!!

Whilst every other major rugby nation is fine tuning established combinations, the Scotland squad are going through "get to know you" ice breakers.

I feel like we are discussing 2 different things. I know Roddy Grant was used as an example, but he isn't getting picked because Hardie turned up. He isn't getting picked for some other reason, regardless of "foreign" players (I don't know what it is, because I would select him)

Also the paper which reported the move also said the NZ union had blocked an earlier move, by refusing to let him out of his contract. So maybe his intention was to come over here to "prove himself" and through no fault of his own this hasn't happened.

My thoughts are everyone will get a fair crack in the warm up games, those who do well enough will get selected

George Carlin wrote:However, any suggestion that he should not join the squad to let the coaches at least meet with him cannot be a suggestion based on rugby reasons - the rationale can only be political. The Scotland team has nothing to lose by at least seeing the player - unless we think that Cotter has no objectivity, why should we fear Hardie entering the squad - if only to confirm that our current crop of opensides is better than him?

Seems to me that what people are really worried about is Hardie potentially being able to prove that he does have something which is worth a look at.

I'll not lie, as a matter of principle I do not think that a player yet to set foot on these shores should be involved in the pre-WC training camp. Resources should be focused on those players who will play in the World Cup, and if anything we should be cutting from the squad and not adding to it. With smaller numbers you can build intensity - build a siege mentality. This Scotland team has a Wooden Spoon to its name. The intensity in the squad to make that right should be nothing short of brutal. Hardie joining half way through the camp is just unnecessary noise.

The point about Cotter having no objectivity is probably true as well. I do not yet trust Cotter as a selector, and I certainly don't trust Johnson. I don't want Hardie anywhere near the reckoning for the final cut, regardless of his performances in training or a meaningless warm-up game. I don't think you can judge him in those circumstances against players like Watson or Barclay, who are both familiar with the other players they'll be lining up with and have played their socks off to make the squad.

That all said, I'm more than happy to "take a look" at Hardie's rugby capabilities. I don't object to the SRU casting the net wide for eligible players. I look forward to seeing him relocate to the UK on a long term contract, preferrably at Glasgow, prove himself in this environment, get to know the other players who are competing for the Scotland squad, show that against those players he is deserving of a call-up to the squad, demonstrate as part of that squad that he's good enough to start or make the bench, play well enough for Scotland to make the 7 jersey his own on a consistent basis. Once we've done all that, I look forward to seeing him play for Scotland at the next World Cup in 2019 in a back row with Strauss and Du Preez!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:However, any suggestion that he should not join the squad to let the coaches at least meet with him cannot be a suggestion based on rugby reasons - the rationale can only be political. The Scotland team has nothing to lose by at least seeing the player - unless we think that Cotter has no objectivity, why should we fear Hardie entering the squad - if only to confirm that our current crop of opensides is better than him?

Seems to me that what people are really worried about is Hardie potentially being able to prove that he does have something which is worth a look at.

I'll not lie, as a matter of principle I do not think that a player yet to set foot on these shores should be involved in the pre-WC training camp. Resources should be focused on those players who will play in the World Cup, and if anything we should be cutting from the squad and not adding to it. With smaller numbers you can build intensity - build a siege mentality. This Scotland team has a Wooden Spoon to its name. The intensity in the squad to make that right should be nothing short of brutal. Hardie joining half way through the camp is just unnecessary noise.

The point about Cotter having no objectivity is probably true as well. I do not yet trust Cotter as a selector, and I certainly don't trust Johnson. I don't want Hardie anywhere near the reckoning for the final cut, regardless of his performances in training or a meaningless warm-up game. I don't think you can judge him in those circumstances against players like Watson or Barclay, who are both familiar with the other players they'll be lining up with and have played their socks off to make the squad.

That all said, I'm more than happy to "take a look" at Hardie's rugby capabilities. I don't object to the SRU casting the net wide for eligible players. I look forward to seeing him relocate to the UK on a long term contract, preferrably at Glasgow, prove himself in this environment, get to know the other players who are competing for the Scotland squad, show that against those players he is deserving of a call-up to the squad, demonstrate as part of that squad that he's good enough to start or make the bench, play well enough for Scotland to make the 7 jersey his own on a consistent basis. Once we've done all that, I look forward to seeing him play for Scotland at the next World Cup in 2019 in a back row with Strauss and Du Preez!

All fair points. Hardie is only 26 after all. My pet peeve is clearly a desire on his part to get a ticket for the Big Show in the autumn rather than specifically to have the honour of playing for Scotland. Don't like that at all. I appreciate journalists will be asking him about the RWC, but he needs to direct focus specifically away from that.  

If Hardie is smart he will release that he is now committed, look well at what's happened to Hugh Blake, make sure he is wanted and needed at his NH club (whichever that may be) and set his sight on the 6N next year. He takes a Super Rugby winners medal with him anyway. I can see the sense in looking to move to the NH now, regardless of what happens internationally. What more does he need to do in that league?

But we all know how often young men are patient and willing to defer gratification...

George Carlin wrote:
But we all know how often young men are patient and willing to defer gratification...

That's why I'm holding off writing to Demi Lovato.

IanBru wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
But we all know how often young men are patient and willing to defer gratification...

That's why I'm holding off while writing to Demi Lovato.

Fixed that for you Brubro.

Ewwwww...

It's always the weegies that lower the tone.....

If Hardie does make the squad, all eyes on Barclay's Twitter account!!

jimbopip wrote:

IanBru wrote:

George Carlin wrote:
But we all know how often young men are patient and willing to defer gratification...

That's why I'm holding off while writing to Demi Lovato.

Fixed that for you Brubro.

I've had to open a window to let some of that Wrong out.

No way was Hardie waiting for the NZ squad to be announced before declaring for Scotland...even he must have known that he probably wouldn't be in their top 6 or 7 opensides.

Well I for one am chuffed he's come over. We've been speculating/hoping for years and he's finally nailed his colours to the mast.

I see no difference between him being selected and an Aviva Premiership player being picked. Blair Cowan and Keiran Low (not to mention guys like Tom Smith etc) had never played in Scotland before they were picked. So really why is this any different?! Some of you are saying because he's not played in the Northern Hemisphere. Pah, based on that would we turn down an uncapped Richie McCaw? I don't think it's that different, especially not for a 7.

To be fair I think he's got a huge task ahead of him after joining so late in the pre RWC training camp. Vern will no doubt have said as much. It's down to him to wow big time if he wants to do anything of significance.

So, best case scenario he outshines everyone in training and has a storming world cup, worst case we cap him off the bench in a warm up game, drop him from the final squad but tie him to Scotland for good. Then it would be inevitable that he would join a British club.

I see this all as win win.

SirBurger wrote:No way was Hardie waiting for the NZ squad to be announced before declaring for Scotland...even he must have known that he probably wouldn't be in their top 6 or 7 opensides.

I agree that he wouldn't have been waiting for the squad announcement given his recent injuries but similarly I don't think that we should diminish his abilities. There are only 5 Kiwi Super Rugby franchises and Hardie (when not broken) has been a regular starter for one of them.

So to put that in perspective, take the top half of the English premiership and take a look at each of their starting opensides. By extrapolation, that's the standard we should be expecting him to be at.

madmaccas wrote:Well I for one am chuffed he's come over. We've been speculating/hoping for years and he's finally nailed his colours to the mast.

I see no difference between him being selected and an Aviva Premiership player being picked. Blair Cowan and Keiran Low (not to mention guys like Tom Smith etc) had never played in Scotland before they were picked. So really why is this any different?! Some of you are saying because he's not played in the Northern Hemisphere. Pah, based on that would we turn down an uncapped Richie McCaw? I don't think it's that different, especially not for a 7.

To be fair I think he's got a huge task ahead of him after joining so late in the pre RWC training camp. Vern will no doubt have said as much. It's down to him to wow big time if he wants to do anything of significance.

So, best case scenario he outshines everyone in training and has a storming world cup, worst case we cap him off the bench in a warm up game, drop him from the final squad but tie him to Scotland for good. Then it would be inevitable that he would join a British club.

I see this all as win win.

Agree 100%.

We've been hoping for years for Hardie and some of his talented brethren with Super Rugby experience to come over to us. Then, when one of the higher profile candidates does, what do we do?

Complain about the timing of it.

The glass is not half full. It's completely full.

If this goes well and Hardie has a good experience it can only encourage other Kiwis like MacNicholl to think about giving it a try.

George Carlin wrote:

SirBurger wrote:No way was Hardie waiting for the NZ squad to be announced before declaring for Scotland...even he must have known that he probably wouldn't be in their top 6 or 7 opensides.

I agree that he wouldn't have been waiting for the squad announcement given his recent injuries but similarly I don't think that we should diminish his abilities. There are only 5 Kiwi Super Rugby franchises and Hardie (when not broken) has been a regular starter for one of them.

So to put that in perspective, take the top half of the English premiership and take a look at each of their starting opensides. By extrapolation, that's the standard we should be expecting him to be at.

Totally agree with that. He is a top player. I just think having been injured for two year the All Blacks wouldn't even have been tempted to consider him.

Just looked back and what a difference a year a half makes!

https://www.606v2.com/t50653-scotland-world-cup-watch

The difference between Hardie and players like Cowan and Low is that they were not called up mid-way through a pre-World Cup training squad. They were added in the usual course as part of an AI squad and capped accordingly.

That's a great thread to look back on though! My best predictions were Moray Low at tighthead and Tim Swinson at lock!

madmaccas wrote:Just looked back and what a difference a year a half makes!

https://www.606v2.com/t50653-scotland-world-cup-watch

1: 1) GRANT  2) Welsh  3) Dickinson REID
2: 1) MCARTHUR  2) Ford  3) Hall BROWN / MCINALLY
3: 1) NEL 2) Cusack  3) Murray
4: 1) J GRAY  2) Hamilton  3) Gilchrist
5: 1) R GRAY  2) Swinson  3) Ryder TOOLIS
6: 1) BROWN  2) Low  3) Harley
7: 1) RENNIE  2) Barclay  3) Holmes COWAN
8: 1) BEATTIE  2) Strauss 3) Denton ASHE

9: 1) LAIDLAW  2) Pyrgos  3) Hart HIDALGO-CLYNE
10: 1) JACKSON  2) Heathcote  3) Weir RUSSELL
11: 1) VISSER  2) Seymour  3) Fife HOYLAND
12: 1) SCOTT  2) Horne  3) Taylor
13: 1) BENNETT 2) Dunbar  3) De Luca
14: 1) MAITLAND  2) McGuigan  3) Brown
15: 1) HOGG  2) Tonks  3) Murchie

Go on I'm sure I could work out the colour coding, but at this time of night an idiot's guide would be helpful.

In the 2006 census it says there were 29,016 Scottish migrants and 202,401 English migrants in NZ. This wouldn't include all the deceased grandparents of UK origin. So the good news is. There'll be a fair few UK qualified kids learning rugby in NZ to pilfer in future

ps. Don't have a problem with Hardie playing for Scotland (if he's good enough)

That list got me thinking about a Probables vs Possibles game (with mixed benches)

PROBABLES

1: Dickinson
2: Ford
3: Cross
4: J Gray
5: R Gray
6: Harley
7: Cowan
8: Strauss
9: Laidlaw
10: Russell
11: Seymour
12: Dunbar
13: Bennett
14: Maitland
15: Hogg

16: McInally
17: Reid
18: Cusack
19: Toolis
20: Hardie
21: Pyrgos
22: Taylor *
23: Fife

POSSIBLES

1: Grant
2: Brown
3: Nel
4: Hamilton
5: Toolis
6: Ashe
7: Barclay
8: Denton
9: Hidalgo-Clyne
10: Jackson
11: Visser
12: Scott
13: Horne
14: Hoyland/Lamont
15: Tonks

16: McArthur
17: Welsh
18: Swinson *
19: Watson
20: Cusiter
21: Weir
22: Vernon
23: Murchie *

*Injured or not in training squad


And we'd still have 'international standard'/fringe players left over like:

IMPOSSIBLES:

1: Sutherland
2: Bryce
3: Dell
4: McKenzie
5: Low
6: Brown
7: Wilson
8: Beattie
9: Hart
10: Heathcote
11: Hughes
12: Dean
13: De Luca
14: Evans
15: Cuthbert

16: Turner
17: Fagerson
18: Allan
19: Ryder
20: Strokosch
21: Kennedy
22: Hunter
23 Lyle

Extra:
Blake, Fusaro, Holmes, Fagerson, Shiells

I've never known us to have so much depth!

funnyExiledScot wrote:The difference between Hardie and players like Cowan and Low is that they were not called up mid-way through a pre-World Cup training squad. They were added in the usual course as part of an AI squad and capped accordingly.

Devil's advocate, for a moment: I'm not sure that I see the difference between capping someone during a 4 game AI series and capping someone during a 4 games summer international series, which is what we're going into now.

One series of international games at a time?

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The difference between Hardie and players like Cowan and Low is that they were not called up mid-way through a pre-World Cup training squad. They were added in the usual course as part of an AI squad and capped accordingly.

Devil's advocate, for a moment: I'm not sure that I see the difference between capping someone during a 4 game AI series and capping someone during a 4 games summer international series, which is what we're going into now.

One series of international games at a time?

You mean you don't understand the difference between warm-up games as part of the preparations for a World Cup, and stand-alone fully competitive international matches? I'm pretty sure if you tune into the games the difference will be pretty clear. The first mission of players in these matches will be to avoid injury. Everything else will be secondary. They will say otherwise, for obvious reasons, but it won't be the truth.

I suppose it comes down to whether you think the World Cup is of special importance, and matches within it of particular significance, or whether they are just the same as any other international matches. I personally think the World Cup is particularly significant, both for players and fans. I suspect John Hardie thinks so as well, otherwise I presume he'd have waited until the start of the next NH season to introduce himself to Scottish rugby (as I'm certain he would have done in any ordinary year), rather than skipping his ice bath at the end of the Super 15 season and jumping on a plane.

As I said before, even without the rugby reasons I've stated, I'm against it in principle, and I've no doubt this taints my view of the whole shebang. The squad was selected, has been in (hopefully) intense preparations for the World Cup, and I'd like to think that Cotter and Johnson have already got a pretty clear view of the final 31, if not nailed it already. I can't believe that Lancaster, Hansen, Gatland, Schmidt et al would now seriously contemplate selecting a player, or even introducing a player, who hasn't been part of the already gruelling WC preparations. It's not like 7 is even a problem position for us, or that Hardie is a McCaw or a Pocock (not that that would change my view).

As someone who watches the Highlanders on a fairly regular basis I'm actually quite convinced by Hardie. Whenever I have seen him play he has done quite well.

Call it sentimental if you want (I'm fairly sure a lot of you will) I'm just not comfortable with parachuting SH players into Scotland squads at this stage in the game.

It's a worrying development if VC thinks our current backrow isn't good enough without drafting in guys from the former colonies.

P.S. fed up with work interfering with forum time.

[quote="madmaccas"]That list got me thinking about a Probables

PROBABLES

1: Dickinson
2: Ford
3: Cross Nel
4: J Gray
5: R Gray
6: Harley Bluto plays much better if he has at least one other big carrier sharing the load, so Ashe or possibly Wilson
7: Cowan Barclay, if fit, or Hardie or Watson or Blake. Or GC's uncle Dougie.
8: Strauss
9: Laidlaw Samwise/ Henners sharing the duties, Cooseater as third choice.
10: Russell
11: Seymour
12: Dunbar
13: Bennett
14: Maitland
15: Hogg The Glasgow backs should be picked en masse, if they are all fit

16: McInally
17: Reid
18: Cusack
19: Toolis
20: Hardie
21: Pyrgos  
22: Taylor *Horne
23: FifeHoyland or Hughes

Pour moi, l'equipe des 'Probables'

1: Dickinson
2: Ford
3: Nel
4: J Gray
5: R Gray
6: Harley
7: Barclay
8: Strauss
9: Inigo Montoya
10: Russell
11: Seymour
12: Dunbar
13: Bennett
14: Maitland
15: Hogg

16: McInally
17: Reid
18: Welsh
19: Gilchrist
20: Ashe
21: Pyrthagoras
22: Horne
23: Lamont

IanBru wrote:Pour moi, l'equipe des 'Probables'

1: Dickinson
2: Ford
3: Nel
4: J Gray
5: R Gray
6: Harley
7: Barclay
8: Strauss
9: Inigo Montoya
10: Russell
11: Seymour
12: Dunbar
13: Bennett
14: Maitland
15: Hogg

16: McInally
17: Reid
18: Welsh
19: Gilchrist
20: Ashe
21: Pyrthagoras
22: Horne
23: Lamont

Ah yes that would be my team, but I was picking the probables based on Cotter's previous selections (so maybe I should have included French D2 legend and weegie kiss master Ally Stroker).

Agree entirely with the XV selected by Mr Bru, but would change the bench to be as follows:

16.McInally
17.Reid
18.Cusack
19.Gilchrist
20.Denton
21.Laidlaw
22.Horne
23.Visser

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agree entirely with the XV selected by Mr Bru, but would change the bench to be as follows:

16.McInally
17.Reid
18.Cusack
19.Gilchrist
20.Denton
21.Laidlaw
22.Horne
23.Visser

Yes you need the fearsome physical presence of McMisser on the bench just in case we get into an arm wrestle and are being out-muscled.

News just in;

BREAKING: Fly-half Rory Clegg and props George Hunter, Gary Strain & Steven Findlay have signed short-term deals with the club until after the Rugby World Cup!

I'll stick my neck out here and say, Shrek, Bane and the Mighty Coo are all making the final squad. Ditto Meatball and Furra Linee.
Dancer was always a given.


p.s. I watched Wayne's World 2 last night and Wayne meets the beautiful Honnee Horne (pronounced hornay) when I found myself wondering if she was related to Hornay furra Linay. I realised then that it was way past my bedtime