Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches

madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

jimbopip wrote:

madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Just to keep us all awake all night long: if Dunbar and Scott12 are still fecced we have Horne-Vernon and Weir Schlong as back ups. Just as well there are some decent boozers in Noocassel. to Bru.

highland_scot wrote:

jimbopip wrote:

madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Just to keep us all awake all night long: if Dunbar and Scott12 are still fecced we have Horne-Vernon and Weir Schlong as back ups. Just as well there are some decent boozers in Noocassel. to Bru.

Had me up until here.

I could settle for Weir at 10 in a stick, but at 12 is just a no-no. I'd rather have Ryan Wilson at 12. Hell, I'd rather have WP Nel at 12. Schlong at 13 not quite as abhorrent; at least he has actually played there before.

jimbopip wrote:

madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

cp10 wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

Look at as a good thing. Hogg has the skillset that allows him to play anywhere from 10 to 15, think James O'Connor but with out the Aussie tan just Scottish freckles. He is our best 15 and wouldn't be starting in any other position except 15 if everyone is fit. If you had a choice would it be Lamont at 13 or Maitland at 15 with Hoggy moving up to 13?

madmaccas wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

tigertattie wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

How can you say he is better at 10 than Horne or Tonks?

The only time we've seen Hogg at 10 at adult level rugby was in the nonsensical match for the Lions!

madmaccas wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

How can you say he is better at 10 than Horne or Tonks?

The only time we've seen Hogg at 10 at adult level rugby was in the nonsensical match for the Lions!

Because he has all the requisite skills and is a big game player. He steps into the 10 channel all the time for Glasgow and Scotland, and I've never seen him screw up there. Horne is weak solid in defence and doesn't look up to snuff played excellently in the pro 12 semi and final under pressure. Tonks looks pretty average for the Luvvies at both 10 and 15 and not even that for Scotland, so don't see why we'd want him there.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://youtu.be/4NUJqCdk88U

TJ wrote:EWT - remember the scotland A game when they stuffed the saxons - Weir was outstanding that day.  Saxons full of england capped players, Scotland A not.  Thats his potential.

I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Weegie Wizard wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://youtu.be/4NUJqCdk88U

A 23yr old rugby player will improve in the next 2 years, especially when supported by a very good coaching team who identify an obvious weakness.

To suggest Horne is still a defensive weakness because a guy smashed him 2 years ago ignores all his improvement in the time since. To use that as a reason to include another player (12) who had 2 defensive howlers much more recently which resulted in conceding tries is bizarre.

EWT Spoons wrote:Following his move to Wasps I would be tempted to give Jackson another run out (in the warm up games).  He was playing as well has he had in years when he joined them, it's a shame he got injured so soon, as he could have really kicked on.  Plus with either SHC or Laidlaw, there would be no requirement for Jackson to kick, which in the past is where his game suffered.

Weir I struggle with, he's never really looked comfortable at international level.  I don't know if his game falters becuase of the coaching he's had over the years where it seems coaches have focussed on his ability to kick the ball rather than to pass etc, so his game is limited to one aspect.  A bit like Dan Parks (think someone metioned that before), but moderatly better in defence, but not as good with the boot.

Tonks - Has never played at 10 for Scotland (to the best of my recollection).  Prior to getting injured he was doing well for Edinburgh in that position.  Not sure he is good enough to play at international level, but would give him some time during the warm up games to see how he copes.

Horne - I've already said I think he should be in the squad.  Given our centre problems it would be crazy not to have someone in the side who can cover 10/12 and has done it pretty well at club level.  However, given Tonks seemingly can cover (to various levels of ability) 10/12/15 his versatility might give him the edge.

TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Weegie Wizard wrote:RDW - don't get me wrong I think Scott should be one of the names down in pen if he is deemed fit. I just think we all have our players who we forgive for their errors and those others who we remember a mistake from years ago which is never forgotten. I do the same with Ross Ford. I can clearly see his form is miles better than it was a couple of years ago but still think Fraser Brown is a better bet even though he is untested.

I think either Horne or Tonks will make the squad as the 3rd fly-half as they can cover other positions as well. So I see the squad including Russell, one of Weir or Jackson and one of Horne or Tonks.

Thing is that more of that group could easily make the cut if Dunbar doesn't make it in time. I'm also assuming both Scott and Bennett recover and stay recovered.

cp10 wrote:

TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Don't think that is true - Russell has started 29 games and your not saying it about him. Handre Pollard has only played 25 SuperRugby games and is now starting for the Bokkes.

Weir had his initial pro coaching under Lineen with help from Dan Parks. So he's been coached a certain way. Townsend want something different so Weir is almost retraining which from the outside looks like he's struggling with. Weir was also involved in a Scotland team that was under performing so has no confidence.

TJ wrote:EWT - remember the scotland A game when they stuffed the saxons - Weir was outstanding that day.  Saxons full of england capped players, Scotland A not.  Thats his potential.

I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

TJ wrote:

cp10 wrote:

TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Don't think that is true - Russell has started 29 games and your not saying it about him. Handre Pollard has only played 25 SuperRugby games and is now starting for the Bokkes.

Weir had his initial pro coaching under Lineen with help from Dan Parks. So he's been coached a certain way. Townsend want something different so Weir is almost retraining which from the outside looks like he's struggling with. Weir was also involved in a Scotland team that was under performing so has no confidence.

Russell is a special talent but even so his lack of experience shows at times.  Also Russell has had a  bit of continuity - Weir has not for a variety of reasons.  I just think its an issue with the scottish set up that in specialist positions it can be very hard to get the game time / experience to develop you game - and mix in some injuries and some poor selection decisions and a player can end up way behind where he should be.

I still say Weir would be best going to a small club where he can get a regular starting place for a year or so

nickj wrote:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The warm-ups are going to be key. Thankfully there aren't 'too many' questions over the make-up of the first 15, beyond the game by game variations in the back row, scrum half and the fitness of our centres. However there are still a fair few questions that need answering about the bench and back up.

If we assume our first choice team looks a bit like this: Dickinson, Ford, Nel, Gray, Gray, Hardie (Cowan / Barclay), Strauss (Harley), Ashe (Denton), Laidlaw (SHC), Russell, Seymour, Dunbar Bennett, Maitland, Hogg. We've got three games and a month to answer the question marks over the wider squad.

While we need to remember that the coaches will have a few answers from what they've seen in training, the main questions I think us punters need to see addressed in the warm-ups are as follows: HAVE I MISSED ANY?
- What split between backs and forwards do we go for? 18/13, 17/14 18/13 seems to me to leave us light in the backs
- Do we take four, five or six props? probably 5, but I'd take 6
- Is three locks and Harley sufficient or do we need another option in Gilchrist or Hamilton? This worries me, it seems Harley is the new Kellybrows. Our best 6 but not getting a game. We need four locks.
- What is our first choice back row? What blend do we go for at 6 and 8? Does Strauss need to play with a ball carrier or not? Who is our first choice 7? Hardie / Cowan / Barclay / Watson / Blake?
- Who plays 9? Who is back up? Who goes home? Cusiter or Pygros? Frodo goes on the long walk to the Lonely Mountain, everytime.
- Who is our backup 10 - do Horne and Laidlaw give us enough cover? If not, the likes of Jackson, Weir, Horne and Tonks need game timeAt the Euro Cup Final I met a couple of Wasps fans who were drooling over Jackson and couldn't understand why Toonie allowed him to go. He is the most obvious back up to Dancer, but also the riskiest.
- Which of our centres are properly fit and do we need to take additional cover? probably the most important point. If Dunbar is out it puts huge pressure on Scott12. I'm beginning to think he and Jackson come from the same patisserie as far as flakiness and wind tunnels is concerned.If I was jamesie Cotter I'd have training sessions devoted entirely to fat boys running at Scott12 as it would seem that his injury is now very much psychological.
- What cover do we need for the back three? Can Visser tackle or do we have room for a wild card like Hoyland?

13 leaves us short here, so it will probably be Visser.

cp10 wrote:......................

My view is most top level pro players (maybe position dependant) need around 15 top class club games a season to develop. Timing and grouping to allow for a run of the games are important.
.............................

jimbopip wrote:

nickj wrote:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The warm-ups are going to be key. Thankfully there aren't 'too many' questions over the make-up of the first 15, beyond the game by game variations in the back row, scrum half and the fitness of our centres. However there are still a fair few questions that need answering about the bench and back up.

If we assume our first choice team looks a bit like this: Dickinson, Ford, Nel, Gray, Gray, Hardie (Cowan / Barclay), Strauss (Harley), Ashe (Denton), Laidlaw (SHC), Russell, Seymour, Dunbar Bennett, Maitland, Hogg. We've got three games and a month to answer the question marks over the wider squad.

While we need to remember that the coaches will have a few answers from what they've seen in training, the main questions I think us punters need to see addressed in the warm-ups are as follows: HAVE I MISSED ANY?
- What split between backs and forwards do we go for? 18/13, 17/14 18/13 seems to me to leave us light in the backs
- Do we take four, five or six props? probably 5, but I'd take 6
- Is three locks and Harley sufficient or do we need another option in Gilchrist or Hamilton? This worries me, it seems Harley is the new Kellybrows. Our best 6 but not getting a game. We need four locks.
- What is our first choice back row? What blend do we go for at 6 and 8? Does Strauss need to play with a ball carrier or not? Who is our first choice 7? Hardie / Cowan / Barclay / Watson / Blake?
- Who plays 9? Who is back up? Who goes home? Cusiter or Pygros? Frodo goes on the long walk to the Lonely Mountain, everytime.
- Who is our backup 10 - do Horne and Laidlaw give us enough cover? If not, the likes of Jackson, Weir, Horne and Tonks need game timeAt the Euro Cup Final I met a couple of Wasps fans who were drooling over Jackson and couldn't understand why Toonie allowed him to go. He is the most obvious back up to Dancer, but also the riskiest.
- Which of our centres are properly fit and do we need to take additional cover? probably the most important point. If Dunbar is out it puts huge pressure on Scott12. I'm beginning to think he and Jackson come from the same patisserie as far as flakiness and wind tunnels is concerned.If I was jamesie Cotter I'd have training sessions devoted entirely to fat boys running at Scott12 as it would seem that his injury is now very much psychological.
- What cover do we need for the back three? Can Visser tackle or do we have room for a wild card like Hoyland?

13 leaves us short here, so it will probably be Visser.


Nickj I really like your comments here. You are getting to the heart of it.

Weegie Wizard wrote:To be honest I'm not sure I see where these academies are going to make the difference once a player hits his late teens.

The younger age groups (up to u18 level) will pretty much play their normal school/club games but having lots of training camps etc with additional skills and fitness work. I can see how that will work.

Older than that, though... I think they will train with the pro teams but I read that the academies won't be selecting teams but rather picking promising players irrespective of position so they won't be playing matches against each other or other academy sides. I'm not sure this will actually give the players additional competitive games, which is what they need. I'm also not 100% sure how this is any different to the EDP programme, other than the head count involved.

Weegie Wizard wrote:I would but I'm still reeling from Jimbo's horrible butchering of LOTR for that Frodo/Lonely Mountain reference.

jimbopip wrote:Highland, you are of course correct. I am muddling my hairy toed, badly dressed, cake munching halflings.

However, Bilbo the burglar could go "there and back again" and have all the requisite adventures (adventures? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you) before Laidlaw got the ball away from the base of a ruck. (passes? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you)