Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches

by **George Carlin** Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:18 am

First topic message reminder :

Previous RWC related nonsense:
https://www.606v2.com/t58234p1000-scotland-world-cup-look-ahead-and-squad

Game 1:

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 Irelan10

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 Irelan10

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 Scot_f10

IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Game 2:

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 Italy_10

ITALY v SCOTLAND
22 August 2015
KO: 15:00 local
Stadio Olimpico di Torino, Turin

Game 3:

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 Scot_f10

SCOTLAND v ITALY
29 August 2015
KO: 15:15 local
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh

Game 4:

Scotland RWC Warm-up Matches - Page 10 France10

FRANCE v SCOTLAND
05 September 2015
KO: 21:00 local
Stade de France, Saint-Denis

by madmaccas Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:18 am

I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

by jimbopip Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:54 am

madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Just to keep us all awake all night long: if Dunbar and Scott12 are still fecced we have Horne-Vernon and Weir Schlong as back ups. Just as well there are some decent boozers in Noocassel. Hug

to Bru.

by highland_scot Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:34 pm

jimbopip wrote:
madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Just to keep us all awake all night long: if Dunbar and Scott12 are still fecced we have Horne-Vernon and Weir Schlong as back ups. Just as well there are some decent boozers in Noocassel. to Bru.

Had me up until here.

I could settle for Weir at 10 in a stick, but at 12 is just a no-no. I'd rather have Ryan Wilson at 12. Hell, I'd rather have WP Nel at 12. Schlong at 13 not quite as abhorrent; at least he has actually played there before.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:37 pm

highland_scot wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Just to keep us all awake all night long: if Dunbar and Scott12 are still fecced we have Horne-Vernon and Weir Schlong as back ups. Just as well there are some decent boozers in Noocassel. to Bru.

Had me up until here.

I could settle for Weir at 10 in a stick, but at 12 is just a no-no. I'd rather have Ryan Wilson at 12. Hell, I'd rather have WP Nel at 12. Schlong at 13 not quite as abhorrent; at least he has actually played there before.

I'm not sure how Laidlaw continues to be referred to as glacial, when Lamont continues to make a lot of posters back ups for the centre. I'd rather have Dozer in the centres as opposed to Lamont.

The fact his name keeps being mentioned in an international class back division is baffling. I'd rather hand out caps to untested players than persevering with Lamont. He wasn't fast when he was the right side of 30.....

by madmaccas Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:40 pm

jimbopip wrote:
madmaccas wrote:I see a few of you have said Weir should be the backup 10.

Personally I see Jackson as the closest to Russell and our new 'organised chaos' style. He had some mixed games for Scotland, but that was playing under a very different brand of rugby (up the jumper and hope the opposition have food poisoning). He's also a bit older and wiser now.

I think he could bring a lot out of the backline we have now.

Weir on the other hand is the a slightly cr@pper version of Dan Parks.

Madmaccas, I totally agree with you on this and if our three first choice centres are fit then we'll probably see Furra Linee as back up centre/10 so Meatball may well miss out.

However, I disagree with you on meatball's cr@pness: I think he tries too hard in a Scotland jersey and is always looking to force things. He's stuck in a downward spiral where he tries to play out of his skin rather than just do the basic things well, then when things go wrong he tries even harder next time and throws more interceptions/ wayward passes. Toonie wouldn't have stuck with him this long if there wasn't a good 10 lurking in there.

Fair enough, I may be being too harsh on the rotund one. He's had a few good games for the Weege when I've sat up and paid attention. Sadly, as you say, he's been dross in the navy blue. Sadly so has Horne. Saying that, they're both pretty young and Parks came good in the end.

I'd take Russell, Jackson and use Hogg as a back up. I don't think Horne or Tonks are international standard sadly.

by madmaccas Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:42 pm

It would appear sadly is my word of the day, sadly.

by tigertattie Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:07 pm

Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

by highland_scot Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:14 pm

I really want Schlong to go, play lots of games, and become the most limited player to ever reach 100 caps...

by cp10 Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:17 pm

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

Look at as a good thing. Hogg has the skillset that allows him to play anywhere from 10 to 15, think James O'Connor but with out the Aussie tan just Scottish freckles. He is our best 15 and wouldn't be starting in any other position except 15 if everyone is fit. If you had a choice would it be Lamont at 13 or Maitland at 15 with Hoggy moving up to 13?

by madmaccas Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:17 pm

tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:20 pm

cp10 wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

Look at as a good thing. Hogg has the skillset that allows him to play anywhere from 10 to 15, think James O'Connor but with out the Aussie tan just Scottish freckles. He is our best 15 and wouldn't be starting in any other position except 15 if everyone is fit. If you had a choice would it be Lamont at 13 or Maitland at 15 with Hoggy moving up to 13?

Boom.

Lamont should be nowhere near our backline if we are to be taken seriously in this tournament.

by tigertattie Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:28 pm

madmaccas wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

How can you say he is better at 10 than Horne or Tonks?

The only time we've seen Hogg at 10 at adult level rugby was in the nonsensical match for the Lions!

by madmaccas Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:49 pm

tigertattie wrote:
madmaccas wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

How can you say he is better at 10 than Horne or Tonks?

The only time we've seen Hogg at 10 at adult level rugby was in the nonsensical match for the Lions!

Because he has all the requisite skills and is a big game player. He steps into the 10 channel all the time for Glasgow and Scotland, and I've never seen him screw up there. Horne is weak in defence and doesn't look up to snuff under pressure. Tonks looks pretty average at both 10 and 15, so don't see why we'd want him there.

by jimbopip Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:34 pm

madmaccas wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
madmaccas wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Why? Why?????????????

Why do people keep on wanting to take a truley fantastic fullback and dropping him into the 10 slot?

Hogg is not a 10. He is a bloomin out and out 15. He's not even a 13 and some folk suggest that! If Gav hastings was around these days I could handle folk wanting to put Hogg in on the wing as Visser and Maitland are both rather poopie just now.

But for the love of all things tartan! Stop trying to force Hogg in as stand off!!!!!

I only see him as a back up 10 of last resort. Yes of course he's a fullback, but should Russell and Hogg be injured then he's a better 10 than Horne or Tonks and Maitland can cover fullback.

How can you say he is better at 10 than Horne or Tonks?

The only time we've seen Hogg at 10 at adult level rugby was in the nonsensical match for the Lions!

Because he has all the requisite skills and is a big game player. He steps into the 10 channel all the time for Glasgow and Scotland, and I've never seen him screw up there. Horne is ~~weak~~ solid in defence and ~~doesn't look up to snuff~~ played excellently in the pro 12 semi and final under pressure. Tonks looks pretty average for the Luvvies at both 10 and 15 and not even that for Scotland, so don't see why we'd want him there.

Fixed that for you. Whistle

by **RDW** Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:37 pm

https://youtu.be/4NUJqCdk88U

by jimbopip Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:41 pm

You are of course correct RDW. Any player knocked over by Tuilagi should be ashamed of himself. Apart from Furra Linee I can't think of anyone else he's done that to.
i hope there are no other Samoan players who behave in such an unsporting manner.

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:54 pm

Aye but to be fair, he's done that to players a lot better than Horne.

On a side note, there was a link to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UWfEwTCOhw

Scott Hastings' commentary is laugh out loud funny when he realises Horne is going to score.

Brilliant!

by **RDW** Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:58 pm

Good thing we won't have any massive Samoans running down our 10-12 channel this world cup then... Whistle

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:32 pm

Big fat no to Hogg at 10 under any circumstances. Even Weir is better.

by **BigGee** Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:22 pm

I am coming up for this match with my son, me from London, him from Manchester. May well be looking for an eatery, thanks for the recommendation!

by TJ Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:53 pm

Weir is a strange case
IMO he has great potential - but now we may never see it. At his age he should be 100+ starts at ten for his club to gain the experience he needs. Instead he has had seasons wrecked by injury and too much time sitting on the bench. Too few opportunities to start games. Its a problem with the scottish set up. I think he needs to go to a team where he can get a regular start even if it means a 2nd teir english or french team.

He was even selected to sit on the bench for scotland rather than getting a couple of games for Glasgow a couple of seasons ago when he was woefully short on game time.

He is a very good player woefully out of form and without the opportunities to play his way back into form - so every game he gets he just tries too hard.

by TJ Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:54 pm

Jackson should be nowhere near the team - we know who he is and what he can do and its not good enough. I'd rather Tonks or Horne who are still improving

by EWT Spoons Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:05 am

Following his move to Wasps I would be tempted to give Jackson another run out (in the warm up games). He was playing as well has he had in years when he joined them, it's a shame he got injured so soon, as he could have really kicked on. Plus with either SHC or Laidlaw, there would be no requirement for Jackson to kick, which in the past is where his game suffered.

Weir I struggle with, he's never really looked comfortable at international level. I don't know if his game falters becuase of the coaching he's had over the years where it seems coaches have focussed on his ability to kick the ball rather than to pass etc, so his game is limited to one aspect. A bit like Dan Parks (think someone metioned that before), but moderatly better in defence, but not as good with the boot.

Tonks - Has never played at 10 for Scotland (to the best of my recollection). Prior to getting injured he was doing well for Edinburgh in that position. Not sure he is good enough to play at international level, but would give him some time during the warm up games to see how he copes.

Horne - I've already said I think he should be in the squad. Given our centre problems it would be crazy not to have someone in the side who can cover 10/12 and has done it pretty well at club level. However, given Tonks seemingly can cover (to various levels of ability) 10/12/15 his versatility might give him the edge.

by TJ Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:09 am

EWT - remember the scotland A game when they stuffed the saxons - Weir was outstanding that day. Saxons full of england capped players, Scotland A not. Thats his potential.

I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

by Weegie Wizard Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:18 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://youtu.be/4NUJqCdk88U

A 23yr old rugby player will improve in the next 2 years, especially when supported by a very good coaching team who identify an obvious weakness.

To suggest Horne is still a defensive weakness because a guy smashed him 2 years ago ignores all his improvement in the time since. To use that as a reason to include another player (12) who had 2 defensive howlers much more recently which resulted in conceding tries is bizarre.

furious

by EWT Spoons Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:29 am

TJ that was 3 years ago. We keep mentioning that game, but the games at full international level since he's been no where near that. I know he's had injuries during that time which have robbed him of a number of chances, but he's not permanently been injured for 3 years.

Also Michael Bradley was the Scotland A coach that day, if taken in isolation he looks like a genius, but if you combine it with everything else, then it's pretty obvious is he was average at best.

I get your point and three years ago, we were all shouting for Weir to be given a full cap ahead of Parks and Jackson, but he’s not built on that performance. Again I know injuries have played their part in limiting his game time, but he’s currently not performing to a high enough level. If he gets a season or two relatively injury free and shows on a consistent basis that he is capable of emulating, or even building upon, that Saxons performance then great, but as things stand, he’s not done that.

by highland_scot Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:32 am

TJ wrote:EWT - remember the scotland A game when they stuffed the saxons - Weir was outstanding that day. Saxons full of england capped players, Scotland A not. Thats his potential.

I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

But that was how many years ago?

Agree he needs game time though - he just can't get that at Glasgow. Imagine if there were another Scottish team which has no established 10s who aren't already better in another position, and bases its game around kicking the ball away... censored

by EWT Spoons Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:33 am

Just to add, I realise Weir is only 24 and if he stays free from injury for a season, there is nothing stopping him from improving and recapturing the form from back in 2012, but at the moment he's not at that level.

by **RDW** Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:34 am

This topic had probably been debated the most, but the situation we are in is that we have 1 front runner and 4 others that need to be narrowed down to 2, 3 maximum.

And the problem is that 2 are lacking experience at that level (Horne, Tonks) and 2 are very much lacking recent form having been injured for a long period of time (weir, Jackson).

We're of course going to have our favourites, but really it is going to come down to performance in pre-season and the warm up games.

The problem we then have is, if all 5 players are going to get a good shot, there are only 4 games. Therefore whoever does get picked will be going into the world cup with very little game time!

by **RDW** Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:38 am

Weegie Wizard wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://youtu.be/4NUJqCdk88U

A 23yr old rugby player will improve in the next 2 years, especially when supported by a very good coaching team who identify an obvious weakness.

To suggest Horne is still a defensive weakness because a guy smashed him 2 years ago ignores all his improvement in the time since. To use that as a reason to include another player (12) who had 2 defensive howlers much more recently which resulted in conceding tries is bizarre.

Apologies WW. Jimbo likes to bait Edinburgh fans by saying generally inaccurate things about Tonks, so I thought I'd do some baiting back!

As for your comments on Matt Scott - no doubting that, but to ignore the fact that he clearly wasn't match fit (something he admitted himself) and ignore his previous defensive form when he was fit is also quite bizarre!

by TJ Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:39 am

10 should be russell and Weir imo with laidlaw, tonks, Horne as emergency backups ( as all 3 cover other positions as well) a toss of the coin really between Jackson and Weir I guess. Whichever of them loses out could be brought in as a replacement if one of the two specialist 10s gets injured and is out

by Weegie Wizard Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:45 am

RDW - don't get me wrong I think Scott should be one of the names down in pen if he is deemed fit. I just think we all have our players who we forgive for their errors and those others who we remember a mistake from years ago which is never forgotten. I do the same with Ross Ford. I can clearly see his form is miles better than it was a couple of years ago but still think Fraser Brown is a better bet even though he is untested.

I think either Horne or Tonks will make the squad as the 3rd fly-half as they can cover other positions as well. So I see the squad including Russell, one of Weir or Jackson and one of Horne or Tonks.

Thing is that more of that group could easily make the cut if Dunbar doesn't make it in time. I'm also assuming both Scott and Bennett recover and stay recovered.

by nickj Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:56 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Following his move to Wasps I would be tempted to give Jackson another run out (in the warm up games). He was playing as well has he had in years when he joined them, it's a shame he got injured so soon, as he could have really kicked on. Plus with either SHC or Laidlaw, there would be no requirement for Jackson to kick, which in the past is where his game suffered.

Weir I struggle with, he's never really looked comfortable at international level. I don't know if his game falters becuase of the coaching he's had over the years where it seems coaches have focussed on his ability to kick the ball rather than to pass etc, so his game is limited to one aspect. A bit like Dan Parks (think someone metioned that before), but moderatly better in defence, but not as good with the boot.

Tonks - Has never played at 10 for Scotland (to the best of my recollection). Prior to getting injured he was doing well for Edinburgh in that position. Not sure he is good enough to play at international level, but would give him some time during the warm up games to see how he copes.

Horne - I've already said I think he should be in the squad. Given our centre problems it would be crazy not to have someone in the side who can cover 10/12 and has done it pretty well at club level. However, given Tonks seemingly can cover (to various levels of ability) 10/12/15 his versatility might give him the edge.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The warm-ups are going to be key. Thankfully there aren't 'too many' questions over the make-up of the first 15, beyond the game by game variations in the back row, scrum half and the fitness of our centres. However there are still a fair few questions that need answering about the bench and back up.

If we assume our first choice team looks a bit like this: Dickinson, Ford, Nel, Gray, Gray, Hardie (Cowan / Barclay), Strauss (Harley), Ashe (Denton), Laidlaw (SHC), Russell, Seymour, Dunbar Bennett, Maitland, Hogg. We've got three games and a month to answer the question marks over the wider squad.

While we need to remember that the coaches will have a few answers from what they've seen in training, the main questions I think us punters need to see addressed in the warm-ups are as follows: HAVE I MISSED ANY?
- What split between backs and forwards do we go for? 18/13, 17/14
- Do we take four, five or six props?
- Is three locks and Harley sufficient or do we need another option in Gilchrist or Hamilton?
- What is our first choice back row? What blend do we go for at 6 and 8? Does Strauss need to play with a ball carrier or not? Who is our first choice 7? Hardie / Cowan / Barclay / Watson / Blake?
- Who plays 9? Who is back up? Who goes home? Cusiter or Pygros?
- Who is our backup 10 - do Horne and Laidlaw give us enough cover? If not, the likes of Jackson, Weir, Horne and Tonks need game time
- Which of our centres are properly fit and do we need to take additional cover?
- What cover do we need for the back three? Can Visser tackle or do we have room for a wild card like Hoyland?

by cp10 Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:57 am

TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Don't think that is true - Russell has started 29 games and your not saying it about him. Handre Pollard has only played 25 SuperRugby games and is now starting for the Bokkes.

Weir had his initial pro coaching under Lineen with help from Dan Parks. So he's been coached a certain way. Townsend want something different so Weir is almost retraining which from the outside looks like he's struggling with. Weir was also involved in a Scotland team that was under performing so has no confidence.

by **RDW** Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:05 am

Weegie Wizard wrote:RDW - don't get me wrong I think Scott should be one of the names down in pen if he is deemed fit. I just think we all have our players who we forgive for their errors and those others who we remember a mistake from years ago which is never forgotten. I do the same with Ross Ford. I can clearly see his form is miles better than it was a couple of years ago but still think Fraser Brown is a better bet even though he is untested.

I think either Horne or Tonks will make the squad as the 3rd fly-half as they can cover other positions as well. So I see the squad including Russell, one of Weir or Jackson and one of Horne or Tonks.

Thing is that more of that group could easily make the cut if Dunbar doesn't make it in time. I'm also assuming both Scott and Bennett recover and stay recovered.

That's a good way of saying it - we're very likely to see Russell, one of weir/jackson and one of Horne/tonks.

Maybe Horne and Tonks if we have centre issues. But I can't see both Weir and Jackson going.

by TJ Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:10 am

cp10 wrote:
TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Don't think that is true - Russell has started 29 games and your not saying it about him. Handre Pollard has only played 25 SuperRugby games and is now starting for the Bokkes.

Weir had his initial pro coaching under Lineen with help from Dan Parks. So he's been coached a certain way. Townsend want something different so Weir is almost retraining which from the outside looks like he's struggling with. Weir was also involved in a Scotland team that was under performing so has no confidence.

Russell is a special talent but even so his lack of experience shows at times. Also Russell has had a bit of continuity - Weir has not for a variety of reasons. I just think its an issue with the scottish set up that in specialist positions it can be very hard to get the game time / experience to develop you game - and mix in some injuries and some poor selection decisions and a player can end up way behind where he should be.

I still say Weir would be best going to a small club where he can get a regular starting place for a year or so

by madmaccas Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:43 am

I guess the whole 10 debate depends how big Vern wants the team to play. Which fly half options fit the Glasgow style? As I said before, for me that'd be Jackson.

Saying that, it's important to have a plan b. In the 6 Nations we struggled to adapt to the opposition. That would be the only reason I'd take Weir - to give us another option and/or style should we need to grind the game out.

by nickj Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:56 am

Surely Horne suits the Glasgow style the best? He's been Toonie's first choice back up pretty much all season?

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:02 pm

TJ wrote:EWT - remember the scotland A game when they stuffed the saxons - Weir was outstanding that day. Saxons full of england capped players, Scotland A not. Thats his potential.

I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

The fact that I am having to go back a bit in the memory banks to remember his last good performance says it all really. That was 4 years ago. We all agree that he should have played the real calcutta cup match instead of Parks however he has done nothing at club level or international level since.

Despite the previous criticisms of Ross Ford and now the mounting criticims of Laidlaw at least those both can claim to be in good form for their clubs. Furthermore Laidlaw also played his best rugby I can remember for Scotland in the Autumn just 7 months ago. Weir can't even say he has been burning up the pitch for Glasgow.

The 10 Question is answered by Russel, Horne and Tonks in that order with Jackson as a stand by. No doubt this will change as we get into the warm up games but as it stands that is my preference and it's based on club form and match fitness.

by cp10 Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:36 pm

TJ wrote:
cp10 wrote:
TJ wrote:I think his real issue is he only has the experience now of someone in his first season not the 100plus starts he needed.

Don't think that is true - Russell has started 29 games and your not saying it about him. Handre Pollard has only played 25 SuperRugby games and is now starting for the Bokkes.

Weir had his initial pro coaching under Lineen with help from Dan Parks. So he's been coached a certain way. Townsend want something different so Weir is almost retraining which from the outside looks like he's struggling with. Weir was also involved in a Scotland team that was under performing so has no confidence.

Russell is a special talent but even so his lack of experience shows at times. Also Russell has had a bit of continuity - Weir has not for a variety of reasons. I just think its an issue with the scottish set up that in specialist positions it can be very hard to get the game time / experience to develop you game - and mix in some injuries and some poor selection decisions and a player can end up way behind where he should be.

I still say Weir would be best going to a small club where he can get a regular starting place for a year or so

You're right about talent. But it's how the raw talent is developed. With-in 10 games we knew Russell was going to be good. Weir also had something about him when he first hit the scene but was not developed with the same skillset, i.e Dan Parks light/short. He's now having to make adjustments to his style which is harder the older you get.

My view is most top level pro players (maybe position dependant) need around 15 top class club games a season to develop. Timing and grouping to allow for a run of the games are important. That's why my preferences for a season structure is ITM Cup/Currie Cup/NRC with a reduced 16 game Pro league (Super Rugby). But that's another story.

It's his development from 15 to 22 that is the key environment lets them develop. Our much loved Scott Johnson eludes to that in his Scrum interview. With the Academies "he's driven through*" their hoping to develop an environment that allows them to get the skill and play against teams of equal or higher quality to then make the step up. We have to hope the coaches they've brought on board can give them that.

*just going on the interview

by Weegie Wizard Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:01 pm

To be honest I'm not sure I see where these academies are going to make the difference once a player hits his late teens.

The younger age groups (up to u18 level) will pretty much play their normal school/club games but having lots of training camps etc with additional skills and fitness work. I can see how that will work.

Older than that, though... I think they will train with the pro teams but I read that the academies won't be selecting teams but rather picking promising players irrespective of position so they won't be playing matches against each other or other academy sides. I'm not sure this will actually give the players additional competitive games, which is what they need. I'm also not 100% sure how this is any different to the EDP programme, other than the head count involved.

by jimbopip Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:21 pm

nickj wrote:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The warm-ups are going to be key. Thankfully there aren't 'too many' questions over the make-up of the first 15, beyond the game by game variations in the back row, scrum half and the fitness of our centres. However there are still a fair few questions that need answering about the bench and back up.

If we assume our first choice team looks a bit like this: Dickinson, Ford, Nel, Gray, Gray, Hardie (Cowan / Barclay), Strauss (Harley), Ashe (Denton), Laidlaw (SHC), Russell, Seymour, Dunbar Bennett, Maitland, Hogg. We've got three games and a month to answer the question marks over the wider squad.

While we need to remember that the coaches will have a few answers from what they've seen in training, the main questions I think us punters need to see addressed in the warm-ups are as follows: HAVE I MISSED ANY?
- What split between backs and forwards do we go for? 18/13, 17/14 18/13 seems to me to leave us light in the backs
- Do we take four, five or six props? probably 5, but I'd take 6
- Is three locks and Harley sufficient or do we need another option in Gilchrist or Hamilton? This worries me, it seems Harley is the new Kellybrows. Our best 6 but not getting a game. We need four locks.
- What is our first choice back row? What blend do we go for at 6 and 8? Does Strauss need to play with a ball carrier or not? Who is our first choice 7? Hardie / Cowan / Barclay / Watson / Blake?
- Who plays 9? Who is back up? Who goes home? Cusiter or Pygros? Frodo goes on the long walk to the Lonely Mountain, everytime.
- Who is our backup 10 - do Horne and Laidlaw give us enough cover? If not, the likes of Jackson, Weir, Horne and Tonks need game timeAt the Euro Cup Final I met a couple of Wasps fans who were drooling over Jackson and couldn't understand why Toonie allowed him to go. He is the most obvious back up to Dancer, but also the riskiest.
- Which of our centres are properly fit and do we need to take additional cover? probably the most important point. If Dunbar is out it puts huge pressure on Scott12. I'm beginning to think he and Jackson come from the same patisserie as far as flakiness and wind tunnels is concerned.If I was jamesie Cotter I'd have training sessions devoted entirely to fat boys running at Scott12 as it would seem that his injury is now very much psychological.
- What cover do we need for the back three? Can Visser tackle or do we have room for a wild card like Hoyland?

13 leaves us short here, so it will probably be Visser.

Nickj I really like your comments here. You are getting to the heart of it.

by TJ Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:23 pm

cp10 wrote:......................

My view is most top level pro players (maybe position dependant) need around 15 top class club games a season to develop. Timing and grouping to allow for a run of the games are important.
.............................

I completely agree - and Weir simply has not had this. In 4 years since that A game he has hardly had a start and certainly no run of games. Injuries and poor selection were a large part of this along with the limited opportunities he has had due to the way the pro setup works. Even a few games for a club side would have been benficial

by highland_scot Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:06 pm

jimbopip wrote:
nickj wrote:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The warm-ups are going to be key. Thankfully there aren't 'too many' questions over the make-up of the first 15, beyond the game by game variations in the back row, scrum half and the fitness of our centres. However there are still a fair few questions that need answering about the bench and back up.

If we assume our first choice team looks a bit like this: Dickinson, Ford, Nel, Gray, Gray, Hardie (Cowan / Barclay), Strauss (Harley), Ashe (Denton), Laidlaw (SHC), Russell, Seymour, Dunbar Bennett, Maitland, Hogg. We've got three games and a month to answer the question marks over the wider squad.

While we need to remember that the coaches will have a few answers from what they've seen in training, the main questions I think us punters need to see addressed in the warm-ups are as follows: HAVE I MISSED ANY?
- What split between backs and forwards do we go for? 18/13, 17/14 18/13 seems to me to leave us light in the backs
- Do we take four, five or six props? probably 5, but I'd take 6
- Is three locks and Harley sufficient or do we need another option in Gilchrist or Hamilton? This worries me, it seems Harley is the new Kellybrows. Our best 6 but not getting a game. We need four locks.
- What is our first choice back row? What blend do we go for at 6 and 8? Does Strauss need to play with a ball carrier or not? Who is our first choice 7? Hardie / Cowan / Barclay / Watson / Blake?
- Who plays 9? Who is back up? Who goes home? Cusiter or Pygros? Frodo goes on the long walk to the Lonely Mountain, everytime.
- Who is our backup 10 - do Horne and Laidlaw give us enough cover? If not, the likes of Jackson, Weir, Horne and Tonks need game timeAt the Euro Cup Final I met a couple of Wasps fans who were drooling over Jackson and couldn't understand why Toonie allowed him to go. He is the most obvious back up to Dancer, but also the riskiest.
- Which of our centres are properly fit and do we need to take additional cover? probably the most important point. If Dunbar is out it puts huge pressure on Scott12. I'm beginning to think he and Jackson come from the same patisserie as far as flakiness and wind tunnels is concerned.If I was jamesie Cotter I'd have training sessions devoted entirely to fat boys running at Scott12 as it would seem that his injury is now very much psychological.
- What cover do we need for the back three? Can Visser tackle or do we have room for a wild card like Hoyland?
13 leaves us short here, so it will probably be Visser.

Nickj I really like your comments here. You are getting to the heart of it.

And there we have found a use for Jim Hamilton Run

by cp10 Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:15 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:To be honest I'm not sure I see where these academies are going to make the difference once a player hits his late teens.

The younger age groups (up to u18 level) will pretty much play their normal school/club games but having lots of training camps etc with additional skills and fitness work. I can see how that will work.

Older than that, though... I think they will train with the pro teams but I read that the academies won't be selecting teams but rather picking promising players irrespective of position so they won't be playing matches against each other or other academy sides. I'm not sure this will actually give the players additional competitive games, which is what they need. I'm also not 100% sure how this is any different to the EDP programme, other than the head count involved.

I agree, we might see that coming.

I do know there was some influential people at Borders clubs trying to push through regional sides (i.e Edinburgh, South, etc.) to play in the B&I Cup but I would've expected that to have happened shortly after the withdrawal of the clubs. Maybe next year once they have a crop of youngsters in each region. In my opinion this type of comp plus playing each other home & away would be much more beneficial than the current Prem clubs arrangement and to some extent better use of money than a poorly funded third team (step back and wait for the fireworks to go off).

by Weegie Wizard Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:42 pm

I would but I'm still reeling from Jimbo's horrible butchering of LOTR for that Frodo/Lonely Mountain reference.

by jimbopip Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:50 pm

Butchering Butchering?

That passes for erudite in Basildon, I'll have you know.

Seriously though, Frodo must have the slowest delivery since c-sections became popular.

by highland_scot Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:09 pm

Weegie Wizard wrote:I would but I'm still reeling from Jimbo's horrible butchering of LOTR for that Frodo/Lonely Mountain reference.

Anyway, it was Bilbo who went to the Lonely Mountain...

by jimbopip Wed Jul 29, 2015 4:30 pm

Highland, you are of course correct. I am muddling my hairy toed, badly dressed, cake munching halflings.

However, Bilbo the burglar could go "there and back again" and have all the requisite adventures (adventures? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you) before Laidlaw got the ball away from the base of a ruck. (passes? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you)

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:34 pm

jimbopip wrote:Highland, you are of course correct. I am muddling my hairy toed, badly dressed, cake munching halflings.

However, Bilbo the burglar could go "there and back again" and have all the requisite adventures (adventures? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you) before Laidlaw got the ball away from the base of a ruck. (passes? No, no we'll have none of that here thank you)

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