Ireland Rugby World Cup Thread continuation: Flight of the Keith Earls

by Marshes Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:30 am

First topic message reminder :

So the chat continues without letup as Ireland prepare for the first group game in a couple of days. At the behest of benevolent overlord Carlin, the discussion has be moved to the smoking room.

Group Stages
IRELAND v CANADA at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 19th September 2015 – Kick Off: 2:30pm - https://www.606v2.com/t60533-ireland-v-canada-19-september

IRELAND v ROMANIA at Wembley Stadium, London
Sunday 27th September 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

IRELAND v ITALY at Olympic Stadium, London
Sunday 4th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

FRANCE v IRELAND at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sunday 11th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

QF: TBC

SF: TBC

F: Saturday 31st October - Kick Off: 4:00pm

Open-top bus parade in Dublin with POC and Michael D on stilts holding the Trophy: TBC

Open sores from the last thread include:
- Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?
- Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?
- Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?
- Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?
- Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?
- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?
- Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Have at it.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:24 pm

So just to clarify....we are playing Luke Fitzgerald at 12 because he has a good aerial game?

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:25 pm

I think that kunu has actually hit the nail on the head myself there Dodger, Its not the way that I would approach it but I think what kunu is saying is pretty much spot on for Schmidt's tactics.

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:25 pm

Earls on the wing. This is a fairly strong team, I wonder will any players in the squad get no games at all?

by Marshes Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:28 pm

Ireland team versus Canada

Ireland Rugby World Cup Thread continuation: Flight of the Keith Earls - Page 4 CPGjMKaUwAEXya4

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:29 pm

Also no game time for Healy yet. Cathal Pendred, Healy's friend tweeted a few weeks ago that Healy wouldnt start a game until the France game.

by Golden Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:31 pm

If McGrath goes down early he could be seriously sucking diesel.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:31 pm

Healy is on the bench however.

by Golden Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:32 pm

"Robbie Henshaw will miss Ireland's World Cup opener against Canada after picking up a hamstring tweak in training."

Doesn't sound too bad thank god.

by kunu Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:33 pm

No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:35 pm

Argentina came third because of their aerial game in '07 and SA won it because of theirs.

by Artful_Dodger Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:38 pm

kunu wrote:No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

You say no, we aren't playing him for his aerial abilities by responding "no sir" then basically outline that we are playing him for his aerial abilities, as you insinuated in your original post. This guy shouldn't even be in the squad based on his warm up performances, particularly the second game against Wales. He is fast becoming to Schmidt what Ian Balshaw was to Brian Ashton.

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:40 pm

Really hope it is only a tweak for Henshaw. Still think that Bowe should have got a run out to get back to match fitness and form. I have a feeling Ireland will be needing him come the crunch games and this was the perfect opportunity to get a run.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:42 pm

I really doubt we're going to play an aerial game v Canada.When we have played the weaker teams under Schmidt like Italy and Georgia we run them off the park.Constant simple rugby with a huge amount of rucks means our superior bench and fitness blows them away in the last 20 if they've managed to stick with us til then.

I think it's more likely he has Cave down to start v Romania and doesn't want to risk him getting a knock in this game and have to change things there too.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:43 pm

What has surprised me about the selection is that we didn't see Fitzgerald utilised at 12 in the warm-ups, and Schmidt felt so strongly about having additional specialist centre cover in the squad he was willing to gamble on the scrum-half position. Having seen five different players feature at centre you might conclude we were already well-served there without Cave.

Its slightly odd to bring him and not use him. I do feel slightly sorry for him as it appears he will have a cameo role at best.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland are seeking to give little away against Canada but if we open up against them, gaps will appear. This is not a defence of the quality of England or Wales. Our players have enough to create line breaks against this Canadian team and finish them off- we don't need to rely on the aerial game here. If we retain the ball and go through the phases we will put serious stress on them and break them down.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:43 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I really doubt we're going to play an aerial game v Canada.When we have played the weaker teams under Schmidt like Italy and Georgia we run them off the park.Constant simple rugby with a huge amount of rucks means our superior bench and fitness blows them away in the last 20 if they've managed to stick with us til then.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Continuity is our greatest weapon.

by SecretFly Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:52 pm

Aerial game does have its place. Games do tighten up towards the final... stodgy stuff does take over from the fast and tries scored get less and less.

Joe, if he can rev it up again without any errors, has a game that could do very well in a tentative, nervy end-stages encounter or two.

But we'll have earlier encounters where teams want to hoof us out before we get that far. And a supposed or genuine weakness exists with Ireland in that they predictably go into close-down defensive mode too readily.

So, a team applies pressure and they kinda know we'll release ours and fall back. And at the extreme side of that issue you have sides like England or France or New Zealand that would be in the position to attack for long periods with high degrees of accuracy. That's really when Ireland begins to look very vulnerable - being caught sleeping in 'secure' defence and having a much more intense and high paced game hit them in the face. Not being able to escape, not being able to attack and every phase stretching, stretching, and stretching them.

Teams will attack us at pace, if they can, because they've seen we slide into auto defence mode so easily. We need to aggressively fight ourselves out of defence more often to show we're not always going to stay there. Go on the attack when teams expect us to defend our slim gains. Don't wait to be squeezed and squeezed. Break up the rhythm. Make us more difficult to read tempo-wise.

by kunu Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:57 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
kunu wrote:No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

You say no, we aren't playing him for his aerial abilities by responding "no sir" then basically outline that we are playing him for his aerial abilities, as you insinuated in your original post. This guy shouldn't even be in the squad based on his warm up performances, particularly the second game against Wales. He is fast becoming to Schmidt what Ian Balshaw was to Brian Ashton.

Well no - I wouldn't say my post is as simple as that. We are not simply picking him at 12 because of his aerial abilities. We are replacing a player who's got outstanding aerial ability. It's not a choice made for a bit of craic, this is damage control. Cave isn't world class, so we can sacrifice his ability here.

I also highlighted other abilities. He an alright passer, is stronger & he's faster than Cave. Its not a simple matter of picking Fitz ahead of Cave for his aerial game. Its based on the fact that the parts of Cave's game that are better than Fitz aren't THAT much better. Therefore, Fitz pips it because of his ability in the air, on top of the notion that he's not really that much worse than Cave at general centre play.

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:01 pm

On recent form though kunu, I would say that Cave has been the better player. Certainly looked like that in the warm-up games. I also do feel that Fitz does not run very good lines, he seems to either over run support or change direction at the last second.

Its a perfect selection for Notch as if Payne has another bad attacking game then he already has a built in excuse Wink

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:02 pm

According to the Irish Times Noel Reid is next in line to be called up:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/no-robbie-henshaw-as-ireland-name-team-for-canada-1.2355323

Also according to Schmidt Hendshaw has a slight hamstring strain. However, it looks like in this recent pic his forearm is also an issue:

Henshaw:

by kunu Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:06 pm

Yeah Cave definitely has form in his favour.

by kunu Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:07 pm

Read that this morning. Now the inclusion of Noel Reid is something I would readily question.

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:09 pm

Teams for Italy France game have been released. No Parra, Fofana or Parisse in the starting teams.

by brennomac Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:10 pm

Great to see Henderson starting - himself and Paulie should put manners on Cudmore. Ryan on the bench not a surprise, Toner not an impact sub type. And with Hendo, POC, Heaslip and POM we haven't plenty to aim at in the line out without Toner's 6'10".

by Golden Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:14 pm

Surely Trimble would be more use in the squad then Reid? Theres enough players in the squad that can cover centre in training. Realistically that's all Reid would be doing.

Anyway fingers crossed Henshaw is fine.

by Guest Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:15 pm

kunu wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
kunu wrote:No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

You say no, we aren't playing him for his aerial abilities by responding "no sir" then basically outline that we are playing him for his aerial abilities, as you insinuated in your original post. This guy shouldn't even be in the squad based on his warm up performances, particularly the second game against Wales. He is fast becoming to Schmidt what Ian Balshaw was to Brian Ashton.

Well no - I wouldn't say my post is as simple as that. We are not simply picking him at 12 because of his aerial abilities. We are replacing a player who's got outstanding aerial ability. It's not a choice made for a bit of craic, this is damage control. Cave isn't world class, so we can sacrifice his ability here.

I also highlighted other abilities. He an alright passer, is stronger & he's faster than Cave. Its not a simple matter of picking Fitz ahead of Cave for his aerial game. Its based on the fact that the parts of Cave's game that are better than Fitz aren't THAT much better. Therefore, Fitz pips it because of his ability in the air, on top of the notion that he's not really that much worse than Cave at general centre play.

Fitz at 12 because of his aerial abilities? No, Cave isn't world class, but he is still much better than Fitz. I don't understand Schmidts thinking here at all. Cave and Payne know each other. Play well together. Why risk Fitz? Really don't get it.

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:20 pm

I wonder if Schmidt may be thinking of positional changes during the game, Swap Payne to 12, bring Earls to 13 and drop Fitz back on the wing. Stranger things have happened.

by kunu Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:25 pm

Munchkin wrote:
kunu wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
kunu wrote:No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

You say no, we aren't playing him for his aerial abilities by responding "no sir" then basically outline that we are playing him for his aerial abilities, as you insinuated in your original post. This guy shouldn't even be in the squad based on his warm up performances, particularly the second game against Wales. He is fast becoming to Schmidt what Ian Balshaw was to Brian Ashton.

Well no - I wouldn't say my post is as simple as that. We are not simply picking him at 12 because of his aerial abilities. We are replacing a player who's got outstanding aerial ability. It's not a choice made for a bit of craic, this is damage control. Cave isn't world class, so we can sacrifice his ability here.

I also highlighted other abilities. He an alright passer, is stronger & he's faster than Cave. Its not a simple matter of picking Fitz ahead of Cave for his aerial game. Its based on the fact that the parts of Cave's game that are better than Fitz aren't THAT much better. Therefore, Fitz pips it because of his ability in the air, on top of the notion that he's not really that much worse than Cave at general centre play.

Fitz at 12 because of his aerial abilities? No, Cave isn't world class, but he is still much better than Fitz. I don't understand Schmidts thinking here at all. Cave and Payne know each other. Play well together. Why risk Fitz? Really don't get it.

We'll agree to disagree there. I understand why people think otherwise, but I really don't think Cave is much better than Fitz at all. Fitz just has a terrible knack of being comically bad when he's off form. Hopefully that form turns around - he's a GS winner with multiple euro cup medals after all. If we see a few Garry Owen chases on Saturday, it'll be clear why Fitz was picked. If we don't, disregard all my previous posts about this! My only guess in that scenario is that Joe's hoping Fitz can come good before the serious games.

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:27 pm

kunu wrote:

We'll agree to disagree there. I understand why people think otherwise, but I really don't think Cave is much better than Fitz at all. Fitz just has a terrible knack of being comically bad when he's off form. Hopefully that form turns around - he's a GS winner with multiple euro cup medals after all. If we see a few Garry Owen chases on Saturday, it'll be clear why Fitz was picked. If we don't, disregard all my previous posts about this! My only guess in that scenario is that Joe's hoping Fitz can come good before the serious games.

Then that raises the question as to why Bowe was not sent out for some match fitness...

by SecretFly Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:28 pm

Fitz will have sand in his pockets - and boots - to keep his more erratic thoughts of running at bay.

by thebandwagonsociety Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:48 pm

kunu wrote:Read that this morning. Now the inclusion of Noel Reid is something I would readily question.

McCloskey would have to be the bolter into the squad if they cast the net out for a replacement centre.

by Submachine Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:52 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
kunu wrote:Read that this morning. Now the inclusion of Noel Reid is something I would readily question.

McCloskey would have to be the bolter into the squad if they cast the net out for a replacement centre.

Reid was in the extended squad before the cull and going really well aparently. No chance McCloskey would get in ahead of him when he doesn't know the team patterns.

by thebandwagonsociety Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:52 pm

I've always thought that 12 is Luke's best position. But this is not the time to do it!

Biggest problem with Luke has been over-running plays, which isn't a problem for 12 to the same extent because they are straight into the play. He has good hands, solid defense, solid pace, a very underrated step.

Main issue is the likelihood he doesn't make it through the warm-up.

by **rodders** Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:I meant the RWC Kunu but see my mistake there

I am really interested in actually understanding why people think that Schmidt has brought more to Ireland than previous coaches.

Under EOS, I believe that Ireland had the best backline in recent memory.
Under Kidney (early days) Ireland was incredibly solid and had some outstanding set plays.

For the record, I believe Schmidt did extremely well to solidify the team when he took over and drilled the basic into them very we but what has he brought tactically to Ireland that makes people think that he is so much more inventive than EOS or Kidney?

I think its clear now that when we go out and play a given opposition that the way we play is not only based on what Schmidt thinks our strengths are, and a certain philosophy towards how we should play but also based on where the opposition weaknesses are.

Under Kidney it was clear that he picked is 15 and sent them out with no game plan other than some rhetoric about heads up rugby. Tactically we were clueless with the ball, which is something past players have eluded to.

EOS was just a gob shoite who piggy backed of Gats really - brought a new level of fitness and professionalism to the side and with it consistency but not enough tactical nous to get us over the line in the 6N despite an uber-talented group of players for many years.

Strong team interesting no sign of Bowe or Cave - as Notch said maybe Fitz needs game time to be the 23 player.

Toner still to come in and Henshaw injured but otherwise looks close to full strength one would think...

by **rodders** Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:05 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Then that raises the question as to why Bowe was not sent out for some match fitness...

Based on the England game its another few laps on the treadmill and reps on the bench press he needs. Maybe they are hoping he'll peak for the final?

by Blanko Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:09 pm

Guys they are playing Canada. Perfect game for Earls and Fitz. Likely they will get 6 tries between them. However they will play no part in the France game. JS too savvy to have two hankies in his team for that game.

by Guest Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:10 pm

kunu wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
kunu wrote:
Artful_Dodger wrote:
kunu wrote:No sir. We were going to play another player at 12 (who isn't an actual 12)- Henshaw- and apparently he got injured. I'm suggesting that Fitz is a completely understandable replacement. In a similar vein to Henshaw, he's not an actual 12. So you'd assume the skills you and I associate with being a traditional 12 mean squat for Schmidt. Fitz is an all rounder, and good in the air. He can pass and run if required, and he's faster than Cave.

Cave is a decent centre, and not as good as Fitz in the air. If he did indeed pick Fitz, its because he's willing to sacrifice a bit of traditional centre play in lieu of a better aerial game. It should be an understandable swap, as many people on this board have noticed, and some lamented, that Ireland have been playing an almost exclusively aerial game.

You say no, we aren't playing him for his aerial abilities by responding "no sir" then basically outline that we are playing him for his aerial abilities, as you insinuated in your original post. This guy shouldn't even be in the squad based on his warm up performances, particularly the second game against Wales. He is fast becoming to Schmidt what Ian Balshaw was to Brian Ashton.

Well no - I wouldn't say my post is as simple as that. We are not simply picking him at 12 because of his aerial abilities. We are replacing a player who's got outstanding aerial ability. It's not a choice made for a bit of craic, this is damage control. Cave isn't world class, so we can sacrifice his ability here.

I also highlighted other abilities. He an alright passer, is stronger & he's faster than Cave. Its not a simple matter of picking Fitz ahead of Cave for his aerial game. Its based on the fact that the parts of Cave's game that are better than Fitz aren't THAT much better. Therefore, Fitz pips it because of his ability in the air, on top of the notion that he's not really that much worse than Cave at general centre play.

Fitz at 12 because of his aerial abilities? No, Cave isn't world class, but he is still much better than Fitz. I don't understand Schmidts thinking here at all. Cave and Payne know each other. Play well together. Why risk Fitz? Really don't get it.

We'll agree to disagree there. I understand why people think otherwise, but I really don't think Cave is much better than Fitz at all. Fitz just has a terrible knack of being comically bad when he's off form. Hopefully that form turns around - he's a GS winner with multiple euro cup medals after all. If we see a few Garry Owen chases on Saturday, it'll be clear why Fitz was picked. If we don't, disregard all my previous posts about this! My only guess in that scenario is that Joe's hoping Fitz can come good before the serious games.

Not very comical if he does something bad in the world cup. Like I said, why risk it? Cave is much better than Fitz at centre. There's a cracking 12 in Ulster who hasn't had a look in. McCloskey.

We can of course agree to disagree, but there's something about this selection that doesn't sit right with me at all.

by GunsGerms Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:24 pm

Blanko wrote:Guys they are playing Canada. Perfect game for Earls and Fitz. Likely they will get 6 tries between them. However they will play no part in the France game. JS too savvy to have two hankies in his team for that game.

Fitz is fairly unlikely to score fraction of 6 given his career total todate is three from over 30 games. Earls maybe.

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:52 pm

rodders, I think that you are being overly harsh on Kidney and EOS. ME-109 said it very well earlier in this thread just what Kidney and EOS brought to the Irish side they coached. Just because something didn't end well, does not mean it didn't begin well or have good moments during...

by ME-109 Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:08 pm

Rodders lives in his own fantasy land where reality has been suspended.

by Sin é Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:10 pm

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I meant the RWC Kunu but see my mistake there

I am really interested in actually understanding why people think that Schmidt has brought more to Ireland than previous coaches.

Under EOS, I believe that Ireland had the best backline in recent memory.
Under Kidney (early days) Ireland was incredibly solid and had some outstanding set plays.

For the record, I believe Schmidt did extremely well to solidify the team when he took over and drilled the basic into them very we but what has he brought tactically to Ireland that makes people think that he is so much more inventive than EOS or Kidney?

I think its clear now that when we go out and play a given opposition that the way we play is not only based on what Schmidt thinks our strengths are, and a certain philosophy towards how we should play but also based on where the opposition weaknesses are.

Under Kidney it was clear that he picked is 15 and sent them out with no game plan other than some rhetoric about heads up rugby. Tactically we were clueless with the ball, which is something past players have eluded to.

EOS was just a gob shoite who piggy backed of Gats really - brought a new level of fitness and professionalism to the side and with it consistency but not enough tactical nous to get us over the line in the 6N despite an uber-talented group of players for many years.

Strong team interesting no sign of Bowe or Cave - as Notch said maybe Fitz needs game time to be the 23 player.

Toner still to come in and Henshaw injured but otherwise looks close to full strength one would think...

Remind me again about who started using the choke tackle?

by SecretFly Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:15 pm

On the point about Kidney, EOS and Schmidt - they all had fellow coaches with them - some more than others, some coaches choosing to have a skeleton crew at times, which I never liked.

But have Ireland changed in style to the present not really since Joe came on board but actually since we lost Plumtree?

And when Kiss goes up to Ulster after this WC (permanently?) who will replace him? Did Nacewa really come back for Leinster or to be perhaps coaxed into an Ireland backs coach job by Joe?

I do think a little of the dynamic of Ireland is just not right despite what we've achieved (two 6Ns) and I do think it might be an assistant issue. I think Schmidt is making do for now but I'm not so certain he has the coaches he genuinely wants assisting him.

by **rodders** Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
Remind me again about who started using the choke tackle?

Donnacha O'Callaghan, but that was down to lack of hip flexibility in his later career- Kiss came up with the tactic for forcing the maul Smile

.

by JmD Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:29 pm

Noel Reid would be a complete waste of a call up. Frankly I wouldn't even care if McCloskey didn't know any Ireland moves, calls or formations. Can anybody, even in their wildest dreams, imagine Noel Reid making a difference in an international test match? McCloskey is the form player in the country and a like-for-like replacement for Henshaw.

by **rodders** Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:rodders, I think that you are being overly harsh on Kidney and EOS. ME-109 said it very well earlier in this thread just what Kidney and EOS brought to the Irish side they coached. Just because something didn't end well, does not mean it didn't begin well or have good moments during...

I don't think I ever said they never had good moments or did some good things. I don't think either can be compared to Schmidt in terms of coaching ability. I don't think it just comes down to results as you can't compare eras or players.

In theory Eddie achieved what Schmidt did in 2006/7 and Deccie in the 10 in row run from November 08 - November 09, including the GS. All beat Australia (or drew) and SA - all had at least one good stab at the ABs (Eddie Summer 2006, Deccie second test 2011).

Neither of them managed to successfully integrate or rotate players and still maintain consistency in performance/results the way Schmidt has and that's the difference for me. I think whoever plays will do a job for Schmidt whereas Eddie and Joe needed their big players fit to perform.

by **Notch** Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:35 pm

The counter-argument to that is I think that the depth within Irish Rugby has improved greatly from what it was under O'Sullivan, and mentally I think players now are more comfortable with expecting themselves to be among the best in the world. There's no 'We're just a small country', underdog mentality, impostor syndrome anymore. I think the players now expect to get results and expect to perform.

by Sin é Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:44 pm

Notch wrote:The counter-argument to that is I think that the depth within Irish Rugby has improved greatly from what it was under O'Sullivan, and mentally I think players now are more comfortable with expecting themselves to be among the best in the world. There's no 'We're just a small country', underdog mentality, impostor syndrome anymore. I think the players now expect to get results and expect to perform.

Declan Kidney had his Munster team thinking that about 15 years ago - and they delivered. If anyone brought that to Ireland, it was Kidney - remember the Grand Slam?

by SecretFly Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:54 pm

Notch wrote:The counter-argument to that is I think that the depth within Irish Rugby has improved greatly from what it was under O'Sullivan, and mentally I think players now are more comfortable with expecting themselves to be among the best in the world. There's no 'We're just a small country', underdog mentality, impostor syndrome anymore. I think the players now expect to get results and expect to perform.

This WC is really the first true test of that, Notch.

The team have a coach - a foreign one. So the self-thinking doubt might be kept to a minimum through that avenue. But they have no Prince anymore to give them their inner sense that even though we're shyte, BOD might do something magic to get us somewhere.

They have themselves. They have built confidence. They believe they don't need a BOD. Which is all good. And it's certain that the younger players don't give a damn about those periods of 'we're just a small country'. Those times are alien to them.

BUT..................... we're at the moment now where this new generational self-confidence has to prove it's not a bluffer.
That it means what it says. That it thinks what it says.

They have to play with confidence yes - but they have to play with pretty much equal amounts of old style Irish doubting grit. When we doubted ourselves most, the players often gave us the passionate aggression to push it back in our faces. These younger players have to know how hard they'll be asked to fight. The older guys know the score, the young more self-confident chaps have it all really to learn right now.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:08 pm

Hasn't Fitzgerald played at 12 for Ireland a fair bit in the past? Or am I imagining things?

by SecretFly Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:12 pm

In the 80s yes, Rory. It certainly now feels that he's been around that long, even though he retains his youthful over-enthusiasm.....

by eirebilly Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:33 pm

rodders wrote:
eirebilly wrote:rodders, I think that you are being overly harsh on Kidney and EOS. ME-109 said it very well earlier in this thread just what Kidney and EOS brought to the Irish side they coached. Just because something didn't end well, does not mean it didn't begin well or have good moments during...

I don't think I ever said they never had good moments or did some good things. I don't think either can be compared to Schmidt in terms of coaching ability. I don't think it just comes down to results as you can't compare eras or players.

In theory Eddie achieved what Schmidt did in 2006/7 and Deccie in the 10 in row run from November 08 - November 09, including the GS. All beat Australia (or drew) and SA - all had at least one good stab at the ABs (Eddie Summer 2006, Deccie second test 2011).

Neither of them managed to successfully integrate or rotate players and still maintain consistency in performance/results the way Schmidt has and that's the difference for me. I think whoever plays will do a job for Schmidt whereas Eddie and Joe needed their big players fit to perform.

No you didn't say that they were bad managers today (well except calling EOS a gobshoite) but you criticism of Kidney is well known.

I was simply countering your view that Ireland are playing better rugby now than in the last 20 years as I find that simply untrue. I felt that under EOS and Kidney (in the beginning) Ireland played better rugby than they have done under Schmidt. People, like your good self, seem to forget the innovations coaches like Kidney and EOS brought in. Even in his last 2 years in charge when things were not going to well, Kidney was still developing a lot of young players and establishing a strength in depth that Schmidt is now benefitting from. I know you would love to believe that Schmidt created this all by himself but he hasn't.

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