Ireland Rugby World Cup Thread continuation: Flight of the Keith Earls

[Marshes]

First topic message reminder :

So the chat continues without letup as Ireland prepare for the first group game in a couple of days. At the behest of benevolent overlord Carlin, the discussion has be moved to the smoking room.

Group Stages
IRELAND v CANADA at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 19th September 2015 – Kick Off: 2:30pm - https://www.606v2.com/t60533-ireland-v-canada-19-september

IRELAND v ROMANIA at Wembley Stadium, London
Sunday 27th September 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

IRELAND v ITALY at Olympic Stadium, London
Sunday 4th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

FRANCE v IRELAND at Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sunday 11th October 2015 – Kick Off: 4:45pm

QF: TBC

SF: TBC

F: Saturday 31st October - Kick Off: 4:00pm

Open-top bus parade in Dublin with POC and Michael D on stilts holding the Trophy: TBC

Open sores from the last thread include:
- Do Ireland have a plan B or attack? And is Joe holding back all the best for the latter stages?
- Are Ireland on a downward turn following two disappointing warm-up matches against Wales and England?
- Payne or Earls at Outside Centre?
- Is POC over the the hill or the reason for back to back 6N titles?
- Is a semi final the minimum acceptable expectation for the fans?
- Was Schmidt right to leave our Andrew Trimble?
- Is the backrow imbalanced? Could the inclusion of Henry or Henderson make it more than the sum of its parts?

Have at it.

[rodders]

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's

Objection your honor! This is supposition!

[asoreleftshoulder]

Yes, it can be a part of back line moves but I'm saying that I'm talking about the specific act of offloading the rugby ball out of contact which I don't think Ireland under EOS did as much as other teams. I remember with great fondness some of the back line play of that era; I'm just pointing out the offload wasn't the weapon for us then or now it is/was for other international teams.

Well I remember it totally different then as under EOS, Ireland offloaded the ball more in contact than I had seen for along time. Its why I highlighted the training scheme from EOS to build the upper body strength of his backs. Kidney did the same thing, its simply dried up under Schmidt and I don't believe that it has anything to do with the players capability in that regard.

Where are you getting this from,I remember Ireland under Kidney as a disorganised mess bar a handful of games where our pack fronted up big time and won us the game.I think France 09,England 2010 and 11,Argentina 2012 and the first half v Wales in 2013 are the only times our backs looked good against decent opposition under Kidney.

[GunsGerms]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's so I do not blame him for that. The only other one I can think of was when May brushed through Bowe so not his fault there either...

Kearndog would have bagged it in the breadbasket.

May got through both Bowe and then Zebo very easily.

[Pete330v2]

Look, we've not seen what Schmidt's Ireland can do in a world cup tournament yet. If Joe's as canny a coach as he's made out to be I'd be shcoked if he'd have shown his hand during the warmups, I'd have been bloody speechless. We know he can create the formula for any given challenge and we know he's got a god given gift at coaching, we do not however know what he's got planned for the assault on the RWC2015 so lets just wait and see instead of purporting to to being rugby pundits who know we have nothing more to offer. Eh Lads!!!!
Lets get behind the green army and cross our collective fingers.

[SecretFly]

Don't say I don't know nothing, Pete!!!

I get very mad when that happens!

[eirebilly]

Yes, it can be a part of back line moves but I'm saying that I'm talking about the specific act of offloading the rugby ball out of contact which I don't think Ireland under EOS did as much as other teams. I remember with great fondness some of the back line play of that era; I'm just pointing out the offload wasn't the weapon for us then or now it is/was for other international teams.

Well I remember it totally different then as under EOS, Ireland offloaded the ball more in contact than I had seen for along time. Its why I highlighted the training scheme from EOS to build the upper body strength of his backs. Kidney did the same thing, its simply dried up under Schmidt and I don't believe that it has anything to do with the players capability in that regard.

Where are you getting this from,I remember Ireland under Kidney as a disorganised mess bar a handful of games where our pack fronted up big time and won us the game.I think France 09,England 2010 and 11,Argentina 2012 and the first half v Wales in 2013 are the only times our backs looked good against decent opposition under Kidney.

Well that's already far more than Joe Schmidt has got this Irish team to do

[SecretFly]

I think back to back 6Ns playing nothing you could call rugby is a bit of an achievement there, billy

[Marshes]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's so I do not blame him for that. The only other one I can think of was when May brushed through Bowe so not his fault there either...

Kearndog would have bagged it in the breadbasket.

May got through both Bowe and then Zebo very easily.

Very harsh on Zebo on both counts. I think even out of his natural position, from a standing start, against a top winger, and a perfect kick, he was unlucky not to come down with it. Huget knocked down for a similar try against Ireland in Paris two years ago and noone blamed the winger then. For the other try May creased through Bowe and was three metres out and falling by the time Zebo but hands on him

[eirebilly]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's so I do not blame him for that. The only other one I can think of was when May brushed through Bowe so not his fault there either...

Kearndog would have bagged it in the breadbasket.

May got through both Bowe and then Zebo very easily.

To be honest, I don't think he would have done. Zebo was infield defending and had to go back out to try and catch. I imagine that Kearney would have been in the same position. Sometimes you simply get beaten by some perfect execution.

Bowe was majorly at fault for May's try and I don't think Zebo could have done any better.

[GunsGerms]

In the last 10 six nations campaigns Ireland have only once scored more tries that they did in Schmidt's first six nations campaign in charge. 16 tries vs 17 in EOS' 06 season and that was with Ireland's best ever back line. Kidney teams never scored many tries and in his last two seasons in charge they managed 5 each campaign.

[SecretFly]

In the last 10 six nations campaigns Ireland have only once scored more tries that they did in Schmidt's first six nations campaign in charge. 16 tries vs 17 in EOS' 06 season and that was with Ireland's best ever back line. Kidney teams never scored many tries and in his last two seasons in charge they managed 5 each campaign.

Proving we can score tries but have just dragged all that stuff way back down.

I guess you could say that if it was a year long ploy by Joe to deaden expectation for us...it's certainly working. Even the Irish believe we've turned to thrash -what must the other guys think?

[rodders]

Yes, it can be a part of back line moves but I'm saying that I'm talking about the specific act of offloading the rugby ball out of contact which I don't think Ireland under EOS did as much as other teams. I remember with great fondness some of the back line play of that era; I'm just pointing out the offload wasn't the weapon for us then or now it is/was for other international teams.

Well I remember it totally different then as under EOS, Ireland offloaded the ball more in contact than I had seen for along time. Its why I highlighted the training scheme from EOS to build the upper body strength of his backs. Kidney did the same thing, its simply dried up under Schmidt and I don't believe that it has anything to do with the players capability in that regard.

I'm afraid you are confusing the individual skill of offloading versus the tactic of offloading as a coached directive.

What Gordon is referring is that our players don't have the learned skill because they don't do it enough at a young age, compared to Payne who does.

It's all very well sending the players out to offload as much as possible but if they don't understand 1 -15 when to offload and not, and when to expect the offload then its best to tell them to hang on to the bloody ball and retain possession as the default.    

I recall in the QF in 2011 we offloaded 3 times as many times as Wales but lost by 10-11 points - why? Because we made a 3rd of the meters with the ball in hand.

Schmidts main tactic is to commit only 2 men to the breakdown - this keeps more men on their feet. If Player A offloads to player B, form the tackle and he subsequently is tackled, both are out of the game - B is isolated, waiting for C and D to secure the ball...eventually leading to running out of numbers and players a la Kidneys Ireland.

What Schmidt does is player A takes contact and B and C clear through the ruck - which is far more effective and creates more options on the next phase, which is also a planned power play as is the 3rd. If they don't make head way at that point generally they go for a high ball or kick and reset.

[GunsGerms]

In the last 10 six nations campaigns Ireland have only once scored more tries that they did in Schmidt's first six nations campaign in charge. 16 tries vs 17 in EOS' 06 season and that was with Ireland's best ever back line. Kidney teams never scored many tries and in his last two seasons in charge they managed 5 each campaign.

Proving we can score tries but have just dragged all that stuff way back down.

I guess you could say that if it was a year long ploy by Joe to deaden expectation for us...it's certainly working.  Even the Irish believe we've turned to thrash -what must the other guys think?

Our dearth of tries this campaign coincided with Zebo's inclusion in the team. Yet the previous campaign a lot of people were lamenting his exclusion. Coincidence?

[eirebilly]

I'm afraid you are confusing the individual skill of offloading versus the tactic of offloading as a coached directive.

Having individual skill is the basis and I believe that Irelands players have that skill, they do it at club level... I understand Schmidt's idea's but do not believe in them. I would have more faith if Ireland had shown some inventiveness under Schmidt but they have not. Game-plan A is fine when working but game-plan B cannot be seen as try harder at game-plan A. Ireland, under Schmidt, have proven totally inept at changing game-plans during matches to adjust to match situations. This comes from rustiness of not trying different game-plans in match scenarios.

Ireland WILL go behind at some stage during this RWC and do you think that Ireland is capable of coming back? On recent evidence, I would say no.

[ME-109]

Zebo is an excellent defender GunsGerms, why do you think he is not?

He wasnt excellent v England. Two of the tries came through him.

One try was a perfectly executed kick and chase that I believe would have beaten 99 out 100 15's so I do not blame him for that. The only other one I can think of was when May brushed through Bowe so not his fault there either...

Kearndog would have bagged it in the breadbasket.

May got through both Bowe and then Zebo very easily.

To be honest, I don't think he would have done. Zebo was infield defending and had to go back out to try and catch. I imagine that Kearney would have been in the same position. Sometimes you simply get beaten by some perfect execution.

Bowe was majorly at fault for May's try and I don't think Zebo could have done any better.

I just like this for textbook full back play for a cross field kick...excellent...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE7Z56XQYo

Also Guns as been watching too much Dr Who as he expects Zebo to be in two places at once for the May try . Are you just copying and pasting from other sites Guns.

[ME-109]

In the last 10 six nations campaigns Ireland have only once scored more tries that they did in Schmidt's first six nations campaign in charge. 16 tries vs 17 in EOS' 06 season and that was with Ireland's best ever back line. Kidney teams never scored many tries and in his last two seasons in charge they managed 5 each campaign.

Proving we can score tries but have just dragged all that stuff way back down.

I guess you could say that if it was a year long ploy by Joe to deaden expectation for us...it's certainly working.  Even the Irish believe we've turned to thrash -what must the other guys think?

Our dearth of tries this campaign coincided with Zebo's inclusion in the team. Yet the previous campaign a lot of people were lamenting his exclusion. Coincidence?

classic

[GunsGerms]

8 tries this campaign vs 16 when Dave Kearney was in the team!!!

Zebo didnt score once. Where is all this attacking flair we were promised?

[ME-109]

Factually correct Guns...like an accountant.

I am just racking my brains to remember when DK last scored (remind us)

[SecretFly]

Factually correct Guns...like an accountant.

I am just racking my brains to remember when DK last scored (remind us)

....?

You want to know that much about him, DOD? Careful...it's only sport.

[eirebilly]

I just like this for textbook full back play for a cross field kick...excellent...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjE7Z56XQYo

Also Guns as been watching too much Dr Who as he expects Zebo to be in two places at once for the May try . Are you just copying and pasting from other sites Guns.

That video shows Kearney getting into a decent position to tackle Earls but his defence there was incredibly poor. He really should have picked Earls up and driven him into touch. I don't see it as a positional error from Kearney, more a lack of last man defence quality.

[Gwlad]

On first analysis Ireland have an easy route to a semi final if they can beat France. In the last RWC they were superb in defeating Aus, even if the latter were quite poor. They could have expected to beat Wales too but the Welsh seemed to want the game more from the first whistle.

Problem is, they won't beat France IMO and that means NZ and goodnight.

They haven't had much luck at RWCs. I don't expect that it will change but Sunday Oct 11 is quite simply the biggest day in Irish rugby to date.

[GunsGerms]

Factually correct Guns...like an accountant.

I am just racking my brains to remember when DK last scored (remind us)

He may not have scored but IMO he has contributed more in his caps to date.

[GunsGerms]

On first analysis Ireland have an easy route to a semi final if they can beat France. In the last RWC they were superb in defeating Aus, even if the latter were quite poor. They could have expected to beat Wales too but the Welsh seemed to want the game more from the first whistle.

Problem is, they won't beat France IMO and that means NZ and goodnight.

They haven't had much luck at RWCs. I don't expect that it will change but Sunday Oct 11 is quite simply the biggest day in Irish rugby to date.  

and I'm going to miss it as I will be on a remote island off Japan :-(

[SecretFly]

On first analysis Ireland have an easy route to a semi final if they can beat France. In the last RWC they were superb in defeating Aus, even if the latter were quite poor. They could have expected to beat Wales too but the Welsh seemed to want the game more from the first whistle.

Problem is, they won't beat France IMO and that means NZ and goodnight.

They haven't had much luck at RWCs. I don't expect that it will change but Sunday Oct 11 is quite simply the biggest day in Irish rugby to date.  

Ireland v New Zealand Mark 2. I think Joe and the boys would take it. Going to have to play the best sometime in the competition to get anywhere. No point in trying to delay things. NZ trying to hold something back for bigger battles. The Irish in red-mist territory - last throw of the dice - everything in.

Yeah. Why not.

[SecretFly]

and I'm going to miss it as I will be on a remote island off Japan :-([/quote]

On the trail of Godzilla again, Guns? Give it a rest! He's hibernating.

[eirebilly]

8 tries this campaign vs 16 when Dave Kearney was in the team!!!

Zebo didnt score once. Where is all this attacking flair we were promised?

I am not going to have a go at Dave Kearney as in the warm-up games he looked very positive and was in my opinion Ireland's best back.
What I will say, though, is that Zebo is an excellent attacking player who brings a lot to the pitch. Its not his fault if Schmidt restricts his attacking abilities with his conservative approach to matches.

[SecretFly]

Zebo is a genuine wing. Kearney is a Centre waiting for someone to recognise the fact.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Zebo is a genuine wing.  Kearney is a Centre fullback waiting for someone to recognise the fact.

That's more like it.

[SecretFly]

Centre.




He's always been a centre. He's no wing.

[the-goon]

Payne will not lose the Italian match but he will show that he is incapable of playing the attacking 13 role. Earls has already proven his worth as an attacking player at International level against big sides (yes at 13 as well as wing).

Outrageous comment!

Payne has been one of our best and consistent player. Defensively hes been excellent and has the highest meters gained out of any of our backs.

Earls has shown he can run in a try with no one in front of him against the wales 3rd team!

Why is that only Munster Fans champion Earls for Centre? If he was that good, why is literally nobody else calling this? Be they Irish or any other nationality.

This is not a wind up, but a genuine question. Surely, if no-one agrees with your opinion, would you question why?

[Rory_Gallagher]

I actually do like Earls at 13 and think he is probably best there. He just isn't as good as some of the other options, in my opinion.

[eirebilly]

Why is that only Munster Fans champion Earls for Centre? If he was that good, why is literally nobody else calling this? Be they Irish or any other nationality.

This is not a wind up, but a genuine question. Surely, if no-one agrees with your opinion, would you question why?

I think that you will find many people believe that Earls is very good at 13, even Schmidt thought he was good at 13 to start him there in an international game...

[SecretFly]

Earls could end this WC as 13. He has as much potential as Payne there - not saying Payne hasn't potential to be even better there himself. But both of them under Schmidt for an extended period - Payne longer than Earls - if Schmidt picked Earls for a certain game, I wouldn't be second guessing him or calling his judgement idiotic.

[eirebilly]

Zebo is a genuine wing.  Kearney is a Centre waiting for someone to recognise the fact.

You know, I am really not against the idea of Dave Kearney playing 12. He showed some good skills during the warm-up matches that I felt he would be very comfortable there.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Earls is a decent 13 imo,could be really good if he got a run at it for Ireland but injury has robbed him of the chance unfortunately.He's a top class winger though so I'd stick with him there for now but he is a quality option at 13,14 and 15.

[the-goon]

I don't think Earls is a poor Centre, but I do think Payne is significant step up. If you add the way Ireland play this is magnified. Payne is crucial to how we attack. He has the best basic skills in the backline, he may not give you tube clips everytime he touches the ball. But,every touch is executed well, every clear out (Earls ain't bad here either), tackle, carry in traffic, presenting of the ball, it's these little things done 2-3 phases earlier that allows for the line break by someone else. Payne does these things, that is why he is in the team.

As for offloads, if we are to use them then, Payne again has to be at 13. Far better than Earls here (not that he can't, just not as well).

[the-goon]

Why is that only Munster Fans champion Earls for Centre? If he was that good, why is literally nobody else calling this? Be they Irish or any other nationality.

This is not a wind up, but a genuine question. Surely, if no-one agrees with your opinion, would you question why?

I think that you will find many people believe that Earls is very good at 13, even Schmidt thought he was good at 13 to start him there in an international game...

I'm saying 1st choice 13 for Ireland right now. I've only seen or heard yourself and some other Munster fans. Others rate him, but starting 13 is always Payne.

And you are the only person I can think of that straight up doesn't even rate Payne. I read it and think, are we watching the same game/player?

[eirebilly]

That's a quick turn around in opinions there goon

I do think that Payne does the basics well but that's it, he does the basics and not much more, I am yet to see anything creative from him at 13 Internationally. I honestly see him being better utilised as a 15 than a 13. To me, the best 13 Ireland have is Henshaw with Earls a close second.
What my biggest thing is, Earls calls an excellent defensive line whereas I feel Payne does not. Payne is the more solid defender, without a doubt, but he does lack the organisation skills that Earls brings.

[eirebilly]

I think that you will find many people believe that Earls is very good at 13, even Schmidt thought he was good at 13 to start him there in an international game...

I'm saying 1st choice 13 for Ireland right now. I've only seen or heard yourself and some other Munster fans. Others rate him, but starting 13 is always Payne.

And you are the only person I can think of that straight up doesn't even rate Payne. I read it and think, are we watching the same game/player?[/quote]

Hold up there, I have never said that I don't rate Payne... I have said that I feel he is a better 15 than 13...

[Guest]

Why is that only Munster Fans champion Earls for Centre? If he was that good, why is literally nobody else calling this? Be they Irish or any other nationality.

This is not a wind up, but a genuine question. Surely, if no-one agrees with your opinion, would you question why?

I think that you will find many people believe that Earls is very good at 13, even Schmidt thought he was good at 13 to start him there in an international game...

He started him in an international game. Must be nailed on to start.

Darcy doesn't agree with your take on Payne:



"They’ve done very well, they’ve both played in the Six Nations that’s gone by and helped defend the Championship,” said D’Arcy.


“They probably hit peak form in the last game against Scotland when we needed them both to be attacking, they did a lot."


“You’ve also seen their defensive abilities when they played against South Africa last November, so I think they dovetailed really well – that’s what you want to happen with your centres."


“I think it’s just getting the best blokes out on the field, they wanted Jared Payne on the field as a creative player and Robbie probably has a few more physical attributes to play 12 than Jared does."     PayneIsBetterThanEarls

[rodders]

I'm afraid you are confusing the individual skill of offloading versus the tactic of offloading as a coached directive.

Having individual skill is the basis and I believe that Irelands players have that skill, they do it at club level... I understand Schmidt's idea's but do not believe in them. I would have more faith if Ireland had shown some inventiveness under Schmidt but they have not. Game-plan A is fine when working but game-plan B cannot be seen as try harder at game-plan A. Ireland, under Schmidt, have proven totally inept at changing game-plans during matches to adjust to match situations. This comes from rustiness of not trying different game-plans in match scenarios.

Ireland WILL go behind at some stage during this RWC and do you think that Ireland is capable of coming back? On recent evidence, I would say no.

And what is plan A? Because I've been watching Ireland since Schmidt took over and have seen more variety, unpredictability between games than in the past 20 years.

We played totally different in the 6N and the Autumn, and within the 6N we varied the game plan from game to game.

Against Italy and Scotland we hardly kicked at all, versus against England and France - Wales we got slightly wrong with the execution.

I think its pretty lazy to say we are playing to one game plan and are predictable - some of the power plays from the lineout in particular have been as innovative as anything I've seen. The set piece has improved out of sight to the point that we may have the best scrum in the competition.

I do have some doubts that we can claw back a large deficit - although at Twickenham we did a pretty good job as well as in Cardiff. I think we will be fine on this front even though the preference is to score first and front run...

[GunsGerms]

I think we could improve on our maul and maul defense.

Not too worried about the back plays. They tend to be the last piece of the jigsaw.

[eirebilly]

More variety under Schmidt than in the last 20 years
I do love your windups rodders

Ireland's, under Schmidt, is kick and contain. This may vary game by game in execution but is the game plan of Schmidt. Wont win anything playing like that.

[eirebilly]

I do have some doubts that we can claw back a large deficit - although at Twickenham we did a pretty good job as well as in Cardiff. I think we will be fine on this front even though the preference is to score first and front run...

You really believe this? For me it was England's inability to finish off tries that kept Ireland as close as they were. England destroyed Ireland and the scoreboard certainly flattered Ireland.

[Notch]

I agree with rodders. This is a more nuanced Ireland than we have seen in the past.

[GunsGerms]

I agree with rodders. This is a more nuanced Ireland than we have seen in the past.

I agree too. We also do the basics, core skills, set peices etc. better than ever and therefore we have a very strong foundation. To win bigger games we will need a bit of xfactor/luck so that is the next level to aim for.

This is the best drilled Irish squad in my life time.

[kunu]

More variety under Schmidt than in the last 20 years
I do love your windups rodders

Ireland's, under Schmidt, is kick and contain. This may vary game by game in execution but is the game plan of Schmidt. Wont win anything playing like that.

Wont win anything, bar the only two tournaments Ireland have played under Schmidt, and 2/4 wins vs southern hemisphere. Yeah...nothing!
Strangely glad we expect more from our national team though. That's still something missing from the Irish psyche in my opinion. We should always expect to win. 10 years ago, who'd have thought that back to back six nations titles could be swept under the table following a 2/4 world cup warm up campaign.

Praying Henshaw isn't out long term. He was up there with Irelands most effective kick chasers in the spring.

[GunsGerms]

More variety under Schmidt than in the last 20 years
I do love your windups rodders

Ireland's, under Schmidt, is kick and contain. This may vary game by game in execution but is the game plan of Schmidt. Wont win anything playing like that.

Wont win anything, bar the only two tournaments Ireland have played under Schmidt, and 2/4 wins vs southern hemisphere. Yeah...nothing!
Strangely glad we expect more from our national team though. That's still something missing from the Irish psyche in my opinion. We should always expect to win. 10 years ago, who'd have thought that back to back six nations titles could be swept under the table following a 2/4 world cup warm up campaign.

Praying Henshaw isn't out long term. He was up there with Irelands most effective kick chasers in the spring.

4/6 wins if you count the first ever winning tour to Argentina.

[kunu]

Absolutely that deserves a mention too! Pesky Pumas

[eirebilly]

I meant the RWC Kunu but see my mistake there

I am really interested in actually understanding why people think that Schmidt has brought more to Ireland than previous coaches.

Under EOS, I believe that Ireland had the best backline in recent memory.
Under Kidney (early days) Ireland was incredibly solid and had some outstanding set plays.

For the record, I believe Schmidt did extremely well to solidify the team when he took over and drilled the basic into them very we but what has he brought tactically to Ireland that makes people think that he is so much more inventive than EOS or Kidney?

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