England vs Australia, 3 October

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ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA
3 October 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: George Clancy (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

43 Played 43
18 Won 24
1 Drawn 1
24 Lost 18
661 Points 907

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Twickenham, London
26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013
Twickenham, London
20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012
Twickenham, London
14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010
Twickenham, London
35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010
Telstra Stadium, Sydney
20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010
Subiaco Oval, Perth
27 – 17 to Australia

7 November 2009
Twickenham, London
9 – 18 to Australia

15 November 2008
Twickenham, London
14 – 28 to Australia

6 October 2007
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France
10 – 12 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 40 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 30 caps)

16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

AUSTRALIA

1. Scott Sio (12 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) (97 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu (58 Tests)
4. Kane Douglas (18 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons (55 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy (25 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) (47 Tests)
8. David Pocock (51 Tests)

9. Will Genia (61 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley (22 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (28 Tests)
12. Matt Giteau (97 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani (25 Tests)
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper (vc) (109 Tests)
15. Israel Folau (34 Tests)

*Reserves to be confirmed

Aparently Joseph will be selected ahead of Burgess and Farrell ahead of Ford v Australia.

no 7 & 1/2 learn to read ffs.

I don't think Watson and May played particularly badly - solid 6/10 like most of the team - it wasn't enough though.

I just don't happen to think that Watson and May are world class.

If you learnt to read you would know I blamed Lancaster primarily for the loss to France as I blame him for the loss to Wales.

Nowell should have never been picked by Lancaster just as Farrell-Barritt should have never been thrown under a bus by Lancaster.

I primarily blame the selector. Nowell,Farrell and Barritt made mistakes - that were bad but they probably wouldn't have made them if the coach hadn't pushed them into such a position.


Should have been out of sight should we? With all our massive amount of possession and territory?

Londontiger I never said that.... Replacements should have done better.

Lol. Genius beshocked. We all remember you laying the blame on Nowell and May for getting injured. Picking players out like Watson despite him being ok. Have a go at Barritt for being below par. Have a go At Wigglesworth for helping to turn the tide, even Haskell. Have a pop at Yougns and Vunipola for getting themselves injured.

You don't think the wings played particularly badly but you're picking them out as they don't include Ashton.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Genius beshocked. We all remember you laying the blame on Nowell and May for getting injured. Picking players out like Watson despite him being ok. Have a go at Barritt for being below par. Have a go At Wigglesworth for helping to turn the tide, even Haskell. Have a pop at Yougns and Vunipola for getting themselves injured.

You don't think the wings played particularly badly but you're picking them out as they don't include Ashton.

That was me.

After all that is correct no?

Yes, I'm asking him to have a pop at them. It's very much tongue in cheek. The response will eb I don't have to others are doing that for me...

is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

It's not genius.

Okay I'll let you work this one out:

Who selected Nowell on his debut vs France away? I have said many times it was idiotic to pick Nowell on his international debut vs France away. A poisoned chalice. Who selected May? Who selected the bench?

Why should I have a go at a player who is getting lambasted left right and centre? There's enough people criticising Barritt.

You say he played badly for the whole 80 - no he didn't. Like most of the team he was fine in the first 40 - England were winning then.

No it has nothing to do with Ashton. I have made the assumption now that Ashton's international career is over.

I just highlighted one moment when I felt Watson should have blasted past Faletau and now you're jumping down my throat accusing me of bias.

Billy and Youngs - played well and contributed to the England effort.

Barritt wasn't fine, let's not not gloss over it he's been poor so far. Let's hope he turns the corner.

You can have a pop at Saracens players beshoecked. Go on it'll make you feel better.

Billy and Youngs got themselves injured so they are responsible surely?

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

Team already leaked.


Brown, Watson, JJ, BB, May, Faz, Youngs/Wiggy, Morgan, Robwood, Parling, Launchbury, cole, youngs, Marler
Bench: Webber, Mako, Brookes, Kruis, Haskell, Wiggy/Care, Ford, Sam

Are you happy with that team LT?

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

They are interconnected because there's even more pressure on England now.

Australia will relish the opportunity to knock out England.

The problem is that Lancaster and co will take a fat pay day if England lose, if we win they might keep their jobs.

4 more years 4 more years!!!!

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

Team already leaked.


Brown, Watson, JJ, BB, May, Faz, Youngs/Wiggy, Morgan, Robwood, Parling, Launchbury, cole, youngs, Marler
Bench: Webber, Mako, Brookes, Kruis, Haskell, Wiggy/Care, Ford, Sam

I'd start Sam over BB and have Easter on the bench (for Kruis). Other than that, this is the best we've got.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you happy with that team LT?

Not especially.

Starting pack picks itself. If they can play as they did against Wales then when the replacements come on we should be in a winning position.

Not comfortable with the prospect of 9/10/12/13 being Wiggy, Faz, misfiring Barritt and a rushed back JJ. However having made the changes v Wales Junior was always going to start ahead of Georgie and burgess proved strong in defence against bosh merchants but showed fallibility when facing people with quick feet. Would really like to see Care ahead of Wiggy - after all we are meant to be playing a high tempo game.


So a bit meh - but really from where we are not that sure what else we can do.




Driver: Could you tell me the best way to <insert obscure town name here>
Yokel: Aye, do not start from here.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

Team already leaked.


Brown, Watson, JJ, BB, May, Faz, Youngs/Wiggy, Morgan, Robwood, Parling, Launchbury, cole, youngs, Marler
Bench: Webber, Mako, Brookes, Kruis, Haskell, Wiggy/Care, Ford, Sam

You either start Burgess or drop him from the matchday 23. He can't cover enough positions. We know that Youngs and JJ are coming off knocks, and Brown was walking a bit gingerly during the Wales match, so there's a high chance we'll need injury replacements rather than tactical substitutions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barritt wasn't fine, let's not not gloss over it he's been poor so far. Let's hope he turns the corner.

You can have a pop at Saracens players beshoecked. Go on it'll make you feel better.

Billy and Youngs got themselves injured so they are responsible surely?

I do have a pop at Saracens players you just conveniently ignore it because it suits your view. You think that any criticism of a player is because I want a Saracen to replace them, not true. If I think someone plays okay,badly or well I say so regardless of their club ties.

Billy and Youngs played well. Their absence did impact on the game - that cannot be questioned surely?

Unless you think there injuries had no impact like you stupidly think that May's injury vs France had no impact.

You can't have it both ways.

Ultimately I wanted England to beat Wales, unfortunately they failed now the pressure is really on vs Australia.

The pressure will be greater. Will England crack again?

To be honest I got it wrong before the game - I thought England  including the coaches of course would be better in the last 20 minutes but England and the coaches proved me wrong. I thought the pressure wouldn't get to them but it did.

Rubyguby show some humility you gloating %&*.

Most England fans have said well done to Wales on winning, would be nice if you stopped being a nob head.

My issue with Lancaster is his panicked looking selections.

In the 6 nations Ford was the man, everything about the team in attack seemed to tick around him and he was gaining experience. Fast forward 4 months and we drop him. So many times England look to be going in the right direction and Lancaster changes things. It's so frustrating.

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Barritt wasn't fine, let's not not gloss over it he's been poor so far. Let's hope he turns the corner.

You can have a pop at Saracens players beshoecked. Go on it'll make you feel better.

Billy and Youngs got themselves injured so they are responsible surely?

I do have a pop at Saracens players you just conveniently ignore it because it suits your view. You think that any criticism of a player is because I want a Saracen to replace them, not true. If I think someone plays okay,badly or well I say so regardless of their club ties.

Billy and Youngs played well. Their absence did impact on the game - that cannot be questioned surely?

Unless you think there injuries had no impact like you stupidly think that May's injury vs France had no impact.

You can't have it both ways.

Ultimately I wanted England to beat Wales, unfortunately they failed now the pressure is really on vs Australia.

The pressure will be greater. Will England crack again?

To be honest I got it wrong before the game - I thought England  including the coaches of course would be better in the last 20 minutes but England and the coaches proved me wrong. I thought the pressure wouldn't get to them but it did.

So was it an error to select Billy and Ben Youngs, as they got injured ?

Just as you stated it was an error to select May in that France game

Bambam if you can't see the difference between Jonny May vs France and B.Youngs and Billy.V vs Wales then I honestly cannot help you... though saying that the bench should have done better in both scenarios.

Do you honestly think I want to argue about another England loss? Of course I don't. Would be nice if England could win so we could talk about more upbeat topics than yet again the failings of Lancaster.

litte_badger Ford had an opportunity off the bench....... didn't take it...... admittedly a Ford-Farrell-Barritt combo is a joke but they were facing a hotch potch patched up Welsh backline too.

Well yes, but we're not discussing whether they are more established players.

You specifically said that picking Jonny May was a bad idea against France because he got injured.

Surely picking Billy and Ben against Wales is also a bad idea because they got injured?

Or is that only when Chris Ashton could have been picked instead

Barritt was absolutely awful. Absolute dog poopie.

beshocked wrote: litte_badger Ford had an opportunity off the bench....... didn't take it...... admittedly a Ford-Farrell-Barritt combo is a joke but they were facing a hotch potch patched up Welsh backline too.

He wasn't great but I don't think in that second half a single England player was! I thought Farrell played well but will he get the best out of a back line compared to Ford? No.

spaynter wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

Team already leaked.


Brown, Watson, JJ, BB, May, Faz, Youngs/Wiggy, Morgan, Robwood, Parling, Launchbury, cole, youngs, Marler
Bench: Webber, Mako, Brookes, Kruis, Haskell, Wiggy/Care, Ford, Sam

I'd start Sam over BB and have Easter on the bench (for Kruis). Other than that, this is the best we've got.

In this squad maybe yes...but better have been left at home.

Or should I say players who could have been the difference.

You always try to have it both ways beshocked. I don't blame Youngs and Vunipola for getting injured but since you blamed May I assumed you would?

You say you'll be fair and judge as an England fan yet you've been desperate to criticise first May and now Watson while ignoring players who were far worse.

Bambam

well if we are going along those lines at least Youngs and Billy Vunipola put England in a pretty good position before going off. Both played well before going off - at least got 40 minutes out of both (can't remember when Youngs went off).

Bench should have done better too. Yes that includes Goode and Wigglesworth (though in Goode's case I am talking about the France game, didn't get a minute vs Wales, was a poor bench option. Another Lancaster mistake.

Would have expected Haskell and Wigglesworth to do better.

Compare it to the May injury where England were forced to put Goode onto the wing - I guess you could say it's more to do with Lancaster's brain dead replacement selections but still.....

These injuries of course had an impact on the games but Lancaster didn't have an answer to the problem.



Player comes off, player coming on doesn't play well enough - England lose.

Got to fix that surely whether you play the blame game or whatever or not.


Whether you agree with me or not - just like you I want a strong,logical and coherent bench.

munkian did you only turn on the TV for the last 20 minutes of the game?

But you said it didn't matter that Nowell went off the field when England were winning?

no 7 & 1/2

it's because you seem to think that's it's the same. No it's not the same.

B.Youngs and B.Vunipola - being two of our best players and putting England in a winning position is not the same as May getting injured in the first few minutes of a match.

Injuries have impacts on games. It's not about the blame game, May's injury damaged England's chances vs France, you're right it's wrong to say May getting injured is his fault. It's not his fault but his injury did affect the game whatever you say.

Same with the Billy and Youngs injuries, the difference that whilst Billy and Youngs were on the field I thought they played very well and put England in a match winning position.

Also we can't really talk about injuries when Wales had numerous of their own.


little badger to be frank personally I don't give a damn about getting the best out of a backline as long as England win and they were till Wales' try.

It's not the blame game anymore you mean. Fair enough let's move on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you said it didn't matter that Nowell went off the field when England were winning?

Do you think that Nowell was one of the best players on the pitch?

Billy and Youngs put us in a winning position and were instrumental in the England try being scored, they also didn't help give the opposition two tries.

I personally thought that Billy was the best player on the pitch before his departure. Cannot say the same of May or Nowell before their departures.

Ultimately I think it was Lancaster's mistakes again and I think he and his cohorts deserve to go.

I guess the reason why I am so annoyed is that it's so bad to lose at home in front of really supportive home crowd when that crowd have been fleeced by the RFU.

Performance not good enough. I am not going to give Lancaster any sympathy whatsoever.

Just double standards beshocked, it's ok, we'll move on.

He should be getting a kicking for picking that midfield to be fair. Still, we only have to beat Aus. Doable.

It's not double standards. You just don't understand....

I have tried explaining it you. If you are too thick to understand I can't help you.

You accuse me of double standards - look in the mirror once in a while....

You really got up on the wrong side of the bed. Calling people nobs and thick! Chill beshocked it can hardly come as a surprise when people pick you up these things.

Why do you think Barritt is a deity who can do no wrong anyway?

Hold on beshocked
After the Ireland loss you castigated Ford for continually kicking restarts to the same place, ie Zebo. But when Farrell kept kicking it to Faletau its somehow the fault of the coach.
Im afraid it does seem like double standards in this case.
The fact was the pack won good quality ball but we did too little with it.
The wings never really got put into space with a decent chance as the defence was never held.
The pack despite winning good ball kept giving away silly penalties.
These are systemic failings as they have been going on too long in my mind.
I blame the players for refusing to learn. If you keep giving away silly penalties don't tell me you're learning and then do it again next week. Equally don't just shovel ball along a back line and expect space to magically appear.
Wiggy said this week that it is a player led environment. If this is true they need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

It seems that the common thread is that England find it difficult to keep a clear head under the pressure. Until that is fixed we will remain perennial bridesmaids.

greenandpleasantland wrote:
Wiggy said this week that it is a player led environment.

Yea but the coaches told him to say it

GeordieFalcon wrote:

spaynter wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:is this the England v Wales thread...or the England v Australia one?

Anyway....we are going to have to be outstanding on Saturday.

Does anyone think he'll put the same team out and give them a chance to make up for last Saturday.

Team already leaked.


Brown, Watson, JJ, BB, May, Faz, Youngs/Wiggy, Morgan, Robwood, Parling, Launchbury, cole, youngs, Marler
Bench: Webber, Mako, Brookes, Kruis, Haskell, Wiggy/Care, Ford, Sam

I'd start Sam over BB and have Easter on the bench (for Kruis). Other than that, this is the best we've got.

In this squad maybe yes...but better have been left at home.

Or should I say players who could have been the difference.

Outside of Burrell, I can't really think who. I'd still have Sam in front of Burrell, though Burrell would make it to the bench.

Thought Wigglesworth was a bit of a cretin, maybe if he was doing his actual role in sweeping the defence for Wales' try like he should have done they wouldn't have scored. Youngs would have been there to cover for Brown.

So what if Carling hadn't played pro rugby... still won 3 grand slams as captain, won 4 6N titles, taken his team to 1 RWC final, 1 SF and been selected for 2 lions tours (and declined a 3rd).

The players can back up Robshaws decision as much as they want... everyone knows it was terrible. Stuart Barnes said it was the worst decision he'd seen in 40 years in rugby.

little_badger wrote:My issue with Lancaster is his panicked looking selections.

In the 6 nations Ford was the man, everything about the team in attack seemed to tick around him and he was gaining experience. Fast forward 4 months and we drop him. So many times England look to be going in the right direction and Lancaster changes things. It's so frustrating.

Totally agree with this. Why build up ford as the key pivot then bottle it??

greenandpleasantland wrote:Hold on beshocked
After the Ireland loss you castigated Ford for continually kicking restarts to the same place, ie Zebo. But when Farrell kept kicking it to Faletau its somehow the fault of the coach.
Im afraid it does seem like double standards in this case.
The fact was the pack won good quality ball but we did too little with it.
The wings never really got put into space with a decent chance as the defence was never held.
The pack despite winning good ball kept giving away silly penalties.
These are systemic failings as they have been going on too long in my mind.
I blame the players for refusing to learn. If you keep giving away silly penalties don't tell me you're learning and then do it again next week. Equally don't just shovel ball along a back line and expect space to magically appear.
Wiggy said this week that it is a player led environment. If this is true they need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

It seems that the common thread is that England find it difficult to keep a clear head under the pressure. Until that is fixed we will remain perennial bridesmaids.

We're not even going to the hen party at this rate.....

GunsGerms wrote:Aparently Joseph will be selected ahead of Burgess and Farrell ahead of Ford v Australia.

If hes fit that does fundamentaly change things. Its a thing to continue with Barrit as hes not exactly excelled but at least its a combination that has played together and the one the team planned around. I guess theres maybe some fear witH Burgess that Aus would far too easily draw him into trying to smash his opposite number and leave a gaping whole.

Farrell played well, and made tackles and kicks that Ford may well not have done. The switch too him was maybe a surprise but Lancasters made that bed and so far hes done the parts of the role youd expect for him.

It maybe smacks a bit of fear of Australia, and as with Wales an element of trying to negate the opposition as much as attack them.

Either way its great to see JJ back and the rest of the 10/12 combination was going to be controversial whatever.

greenandpleasantland well it has to be the coaches if both Ford and Farrell are kicking like muppets. Probably coaches' inctructions.

Farrell shouldn't have been kicking like a muppet whether it's the coaches or not. Trust me I was annoyed when he kept gifting the ball to Faletau.

Haven't noticed you commenting on his kicking straight to Faletau though

Ford kicking straight to Zebo on the other hand ...

On what we've witnessed recently barritt over burgess doesn;t make sense, but there is a logic to putting barritt back in his preferred position if joseph is fit to 'add the flair'.  If that's your starting position (not saying it should be, but if it is)... you're then looking at the 10 slot... farrell - better defensively more reliable kicker... ford more likely to get a backline ticking. I suspect the swaying factor might be sticking with the club partnership. There's a lot to be said for instinctively knowing where the other will be.

From an England point of view you have to hope that barritt's form is down to rustiness and struggling to get match fitness... and that an extra week, back in his favoured position and a familiar face inside him will help.

Not saying it would be my choice, but i can see the logic with the choices available.

no doubt there is logic to all SL's decisions....we have all heard that the reason for Ford coming on last Sat was to improve the kicking options thus keeping Wales pinned in their own half. Problem is the lack of game time playing together as a combo.

Same principle this time as well. New combo but it is based on some logic. But SL should have figured all this out at least a year ago.

I like Nowell, always makes a few years and is a bit unpredictable. I fear SL has forgotten about him or maybe his been a naughty boy and is being punished by his PE Masters and Headboy.

Nowell has tattoos and streaks in his hair. That's bench material. Joking aside IMO he's a more consistent lethal threat than both wingers and Mike Brown - He can also play centre, and FB and will always get you over the gain line and has a good boot. It must be the tattoos

Nowell should be on the bench ahead of Burgess (or Goode). He is unlucky not to be starting, but May and Watson seized their chance and despite what I am led to believe Lord Voldermort is saying have done well enough so far in the WC.

hugehandoff wrote:no doubt there is logic to all SL's decisions....we have all heard that the reason for Ford coming on last Sat was to improve the kicking options thus keeping Wales pinned in their own half. Problem is the lack of game time playing together as a combo.

Same principle this time as well. New combo but it is based on some logic. But SL should have figured all this out at least a year ago.

A year ago we would have expected Tuilagi to have been back fit and an automatic choice, with Joseph still on the outside. We were very lucky Joseph came in and looked as good as he has. We might also have expected 12trees or someone to have become the default no.12. Unfortunately things panned out differently. Lancaster did have choices over to who run with, and some choices work out better than others, but had we gone with different players I would guess we would be having similar arguments just with different names substituted.

What Lancaster does have choices over is who plays out of the team he has. I do think the Burgess thing on its own has worked out better than we have hoped. He is doing what we expected and hoped for, and that is a limited job but done well. Barritt started against Wales OK but so far he hasn't added what we could have hoped for. Hindsight being so fecking wonderful I wish they had gone with Slade instead of Barritt against Wales, and would wish they were going with Slade or Burgess over Barritt on saturday, but going into the RWC I too believed that he was potentially the right option to fit between Ford and Joseph.

After 2 good 6 nations compaigns leaving Burrell out was insanity.