Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It goes to show the standard of the game in the NH when we are considering cast offs from the SH for the Lions. Perhaps our players are not as good as we like yo think they are, yet I am being attacked on here for being a realist.

I am not attacking you for being a realist, I'm attacking you for saying something that doesn't make any sense. Whether you think Hogg is good or not is beside the point. You suggested that the Lions should only select players who are better than their AB counterparts, which is clearly rubbish.

You do see that don't you?

It's going to be a very small squad then!

To be eligible for the Lions you have to be eligible to play for one of Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland. It's pretty simple really. The coaches then, based on their judgement and opinions - with the head coach having the deciding word, pick the squad from the best of that pool, and the XV from the best of the squad.

This is simple stuff.

True Raven wrote:

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am not saying they should be ignored, I am saying they are not as good as their Irish, Welsh or English counterparts, they could be considered, and not ignored, but in my opinion, they are not as good.

At the moment, I consider Samson Lee and Dan Cole better than Nel, I consider AWJ, Kruis, Itoji, Charteris and Toner as better options than Grey, and I consider Liam Williams, Mike Brown and Rob Kearney better than Hogg. Yes Hogg played well, butting cutting ribbons into France and Italy is a bit different to being a high ball expert and a last line of defence against the All Blacks.

Well that really does show both your bias and your ignorance.  You have a completely different opinion to most on here and most pundits.  Charteris and Toner better than Gray - laughable.  Kearney and Williams better than Hogg ditto

Oh well - time to leave this debate

To be fair ,the fact that you put Seymour over north in your team (despite being top try scorer, most metre made,.most defenders beaten) shows your ignorance and bias so I wouldn't accuse others of that

I did say it was arguable and accepted the argument for North. Also I did have the courage to put my team up and in the post said of course it had pro scottish bias - and did so in a lighthearted way.

Lorddowlais I have to agree with you Hardie and Nel are overhyped.

I wouldn't call TH a position of strength at the moment so Nel compares favourably with his rivals. Again openside is a position that isn't as strong, certainly when compared to the likes of lock and no 8.

Would pick SOB or Warburton ahead of Hardie, Cole ahead of Nel. Maybe even the player that big ginger TH ahead of Nel too.

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais I have to agree with you Hardie and Nel are overhyped.

I wouldn't call TH a position of strength at the moment so Nel compares favourably with his rivals. Again openside is a position that isn't as strong, certainly when compared to the likes of lock and no 8.

Would pick SOB or Warburton ahead of Hardie, Cole ahead of Nel.

Cole has had 1 good game (well maybe 2 .. Wales and France) since the 2013 tour. At the moment I'd say no, if he continues this form then perhaps yes.

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

no more a joke than Ross Moriarty playing for England U20s for 2 seasons and then switching to Wales seniors like it was natural progression.

A number of home nations players have super rugby experience, Flutey just happened to be one who actually played for a SR team when the Lions was on tour.

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Very little between Nel & Cole imo and either would be a good option at TH. People suggest TH isn't a great position for the Lions, I don't think there's many better options in the SH, certainly not in NZ anyway.

Hardie is a fantastic 7, love to see him and Warburton paired.

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

no more a joke than Ross Moriarty playing for England U20s for 2 seasons and then switching to Wales seniors like it was natural progression.

A number of home nations players have super rugby experience, Flutey just happened to be one who actually played for a SR team when the Lions was on tour.

Except Moriarty is actually welsh

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Yet flutey is the only player who has been on both sides...hence I only mentioned him in the first place

fa0019 still better than that red headed chap from Wales, that South African born bloke from Scotland and McGrath in my opinion.

Lee's most visual contribution in my opinion to the 6 nations was his war of words with Marler....

TH I think is very much of up for grabs. You are right Cole didn't particularly impress but he didn't need to.

Till someone looks like surpassing Cole he doesn't really need to up his game in the 6 nations. He can get away with 5 and 6/10 performances. No opposition scrum munched England.

Of course for NZ he'll need to improve but so do all the THs.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais I have to agree with you Hardie and Nel are overhyped.

I wouldn't call TH a position of strength at the moment so Nel compares favourably with his rivals. Again openside is a position that isn't as strong, certainly when compared to the likes of lock and no 8.

Would pick SOB or Warburton ahead of Hardie, Cole ahead of Nel.

I would say the following about Nel and Hardie:

Nel - I think the tighthead contest for the Lions is not stellar. I would assume that the coaches will take three on tour. I think Dan Cole is a shoe-in for the squad and probably the XV. He is vastly experienced, offers plenty around the park (the technical issues leading to penalties at the breakdown can be ironed out) and is a good solid scrummager. I think the other two places are a contest between Lee, Nel and Brookes. I would put Lee and Nel on a par. Both decent scrummagers with reletively similar international experience. Nel would edge Lee for me in terms of ball carrying and workrate around the part, but I say "edge" deliberately. In truth there's little to separate them. Brookes is a bit of an enigma to me. He comes off the bench and can look devastatingly powerful, and yet I've seen him start games and look like an asthma attack is occuring around the 30 minute mark. Suffice to say I still need some convincing on Brookes, but I think the potential is there. I suppose Hill is a wildcard.

In sum, I'd take Cole as the frontrunner and let Lee and Nel slug it out on the tour.

Hardie - the contest for the 7 jersey will depend a little as to what the coaches are looking for from the back row. If they are keen on a specialist 7 and plan to take 2-3 options in that regard then I think Hardie is a good shout for the squad. That he knows NZ like the back of his hand and the players the Lions will face is handy. You'd have to assume that Warburton is going, which leaves 1-2 places. A fully fit SOB would certainly go for my money, and then you are left with a third choice, if you plan on one at all. If so, I would take Hardie. Clearly if the coaches are fine with having a 6 at 7, or just having Warburton and SOB plus 6/7 cover in the form of Robshaw or Haskell as a third option then Hardie doesn't make it. The other two specialist 7s I'd consider would be James Davies and Justin Tipuric, both players I rate highly. But Hardie has been extremely consistent for Scotland and his knowledge of NZ would tip the balance for me. Wildcard: Underhill.

In sum, in the pecking order of specialist 7s, I see Hardie as third choice.

True Raven wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Yet flutey is the only player who has been on both sides...hence I only mentioned him in the first place

I think it's more telling that very few NH players go and play in the Super Rugby due to a combination of factors (not being good enough, union rules on representing their nation when playing abroad, money better in the NH etc, homesickness etc).

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

no more a joke than Ross Moriarty playing for England U20s for 2 seasons and then switching to Wales seniors like it was natural progression.

A number of home nations players have super rugby experience, Flutey just happened to be one who actually played for a SR team when the Lions was on tour.

Except Moriarty is actually welsh

Then why play for England U20s? Yes he was born there but that was circumstantial to his dad's employment right. Raised in Wales to wales parents... I agree... Welsh.
From my assumptions he got an offer after stating on his registration forms with Gloucester that he technically is available for England (as even social club nobodies have to do... or at least had to in the past) and when called up he took a professional decision.. it won't hurt my Wales eligibility as Saxons is tier 2 (even though Wales U20 is theres) and I might improve as a player if I play in a better youth setup than Wales' one. That's the cynical part not him playing for Wales.

Maybe he was innocently split as to who he should play for... yet given his dad and uncle were famed Welsh internationals I somehow think not.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 still better than that red headed chap from Wales, that South African born bloke from Scotland and McGrath in my opinion.

Lee's most visual contribution in my opinion to the 6 nations was his war of words with Marler....

TH I think is very much of up for grabs. You are right Cole didn't particularly impress but he didn't need to.

Till someone looks like surpassing Cole he doesn't really need to up his game in the 6 nations. He can get away with 5 and 6/10 performances. No opposition scrum munched England.

Of course for NZ he'll need to improve but so do all the THs.

You wouldn't agree his form slipped remarkably post 2013 tour?

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Yet flutey is the only player who has been on both sides...hence I only mentioned him in the first place

I think it's more telling that very few NH players go and play in the Super Rugby due to a combination of factors (not being good enough, union rules on representing their nation when playing abroad, money better in the NH etc, homesickness etc).

Agreed, and I've highlighted to key ones in my opinion. To be good enough for Super Rugby you'd need to be an international quality player in the NH, meaning that to move to Super Rugby you'd jeopardise your international career and take a hefty pay cut.

I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that players like Cole, McGrath, Itoje, AWJ, Vunipola, Sexton, Joseph, North, Hogg et al aren't good enough for Super Rugby, but clearly the loss of income and international rugby would make it extremely unattractive.

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

no more a joke than Ross Moriarty playing for England U20s for 2 seasons and then switching to Wales seniors like it was natural progression.

A number of home nations players have super rugby experience, Flutey just happened to be one who actually played for a SR team when the Lions was on tour.

Except Moriarty is actually welsh

Then why play for England U20s? Yes he was born there but that was circumstantial to his dad's employment right. Raised in Wales to wales parents... I agree... Welsh.
From my assumptions he got an offer after stating on his registration forms with Gloucester that he technically is available for England (as even social club nobodies have to do... or at least had to in the past) and when called up he took a professional decision.. it won't hurt my Wales eligibility as Saxons is tier 2 (even though Wales U20 is theres) and I might improve as a player if I play in a better youth setup than Wales' one. That's the cynical part not him playing for Wales.

Maybe he was innocently split as to who he should play for... yet given his dad and uncle were famed Welsh internationals I somehow think not.

He played for England under 18s because he never had an offer from wales (his words not mine) but as you said he was born in England as his dad played league, so legimately qualified for them. However, I fail to see how any of this is relevant to riki flutey, who came to England to earn a better salary , realised a cap with England will help him negotiate a better salary and then went home to his place of birth (NZ) when he retired and probably the country he wished he had played international rugby for!

Coles form did suffer following scrum changes and the lead up to and recovery from his injury. Getting back to his best in the last 12 months or so though. Still one of the top tight heads around for my money.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Yet flutey is the only player who has been on both sides...hence I only mentioned him in the first place

I think it's more telling that very few NH players go and play in the Super Rugby due to a combination of factors (not being good enough, union rules on representing their nation when playing abroad, money better in the NH etc, homesickness etc).

Agreed, and I've highlighted to key ones in my opinion. To be good enough for Super Rugby you'd need to be an international quality player in the NH, meaning that to move to Super Rugby you'd jeopardise your international career and take a hefty pay cut.

I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that players like Cole, McGrath, Itoje, AWJ, Vunipola, Sexton, Joseph, North, Hogg et al aren't good enough for Super Rugby, but clearly the loss of income and international rugby would make it extremely unattractive.

Agreed. The two you highlight are the most important for top-level NH players. There have only been a few (Haskell and Cipriani spring to mind) who had a crack at it and they were probably trying to revitalise their careers and profile in the long-term. I'd like to see more players taking a 'sabbatical' out there but I can fully understand why they don't.

Ok - so my team I picked a couple of pages back has been picked to pieces a bit - and in the light of what others have said here is the revised version,  Remember its picked with a set of tactics in mind.  Solid scrum, attack their lineout, attack the breakdown hard, play territory when needed, counter attack at every opportunity.  I prefer mercurial players even if they make mistakes for the ability to breakdown the opposition.  I'd rather try to outscore them than out defend them

Oh - and I am not being precious about his at all just to be clear.

1.Marler - McGrath - I am persuaded he would be better but willing to take Cole instead
2. Hartley
3. Nel - who else!
4. J. Gray - I have argued enough for him  
5.  Kruis - everyone rates what he did this year
6. Hardie - I am starting with 2 7s to attack the ball.  
7. Warburton
8. Faletau  B Vunipola - persuaded I need a better ball carrier in the pack
9. Webb - close call but as I want Biggar he gets the call
10. Biggar - his kick chase game gained a huge amount of territory, has the ability to get the ball to the backs outside him and doesn't make mistakes
11. Seymour North - again I have been persuaded he should get the nod despite my (irrational?) dislike of the way he plays
12. Dunbar  dunno - I need some defensive soldity here but I also want a playmaker tell me who we should have - Henshaw?
13. Joseph - just a great running threat.  
14. Watson speed speed and more speed
15. Hogg - nothing else will do - his attacking prowess outweighs what some perceive as defensive weakness

16. McGrath Cole?  I don't really rate him but would his experience be invaluable
17. MacInally - give me another hooker?  
18. Lee
19. AJW unlucky to miss out - great experience, I want the Kruis for the lineout, Gray for the workrate and leadership
20. B Vunipola -Falatau - OK he can come on when the game breaks up and run around tiring folk
21. Care - gets the nod for his abrasiveness and speed - who else?
22. Sexton
23. Brown -Seymour?  Who else  - one sub to cover all the outside backs or go for someone like Horne who can cover 10 so we don't need a specialist ten on the bench?

Captain?  I'd go for Gray but you would all laugh - so its Hartley - his captaincy impressed me this year and I can't stand the man

Subs - I have gone for 5/3 split - but the 3 backs - do you go for a 9, 10, back 3 player or 9, utility back who can play 10, back 3 specialist?

There lies the problem True Raven, no real way to tell how much a players heart is in it. Clearly there needs to be a definitive rule though, and once qualified no professional coach will or probably should ignore them for that reason.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There lies the problem True Raven, no real way to tell how much a players heart is in it. Clearly there needs to be a definitive rule though, and once qualified no professional coach will or probably should ignore them for that reason.

I agree with you and the fact that he played against the lions should have counted against him but I've said my piece on this topic and don't want to derail the thread any further

TJ wrote:Ok - so my team I picked a couple of pages back has been picked to pieces a bit - and in the light of what others have said here is the revised version,  Remember its picked with a set of tactics in mind.  Solid scrum, attack their lineout, attack the breakdown hard, play territory when needed, counter attack at every opportunity.  I prefer mercurial players even if they make mistakes for the ability to breakdown the opposition.  I'd rather try to outscore them than out defend them

Oh - and I am not being precious about his at all just to be clear.

1.Marler - McGrath - I am persuaded he would be better but willing to take Cole instead
2. Hartley
3. Nel - who else!
4. J. Gray - I have argued enough for him  
5.  Kruis - everyone rates what he did this year
6. Hardie - I am starting with 2 7s to attack the ball.  
7. Warburton
8. Faletau  B Vunipola - persuaded I need a better ball carrier in the pack
9. Webb - close call but as I want Biggar he gets the call
10. Biggar - his kick chase game gained a huge amount of territory, has the ability to get the ball to the backs outside him and doesn't make mistakes
11. Seymour North - again I have been persuaded he should get the nod despite my (irrational?) dislike of the way he plays
12. Dunbar  dunno - I need some defensive soldity here but I also want a playmaker tell me who we should have - Henshaw?
13. Joseph - just a great running threat.  
14. Watson speed speed and more speed
15. Hogg - nothing else will do - his attacking prowess outweighs what some perceive as defensive weakness

16. McGrath Cole?  I don't really rate him but would his experience be invaluable
17. MacInally - give me another hooker?  
18. Lee
19. AJW unlucky to miss out - great experience, I want the Kruis for the lineout, Gray for the workrate and leadership
20. B Vunipola -Falatau - OK he can come on when the game breaks up and run around tiring folk
21. Care - gets the nod for his abrasiveness and speed - who else?
22. Sexton
23. Brown -Seymour?  Who else  - one sub to cover all the outside backs or go for someone like Horne who can cover 10 so we don't need a specialist ten on the bench?

Captain?  I'd go for Gray but you would all laugh - so its Hartley - his captaincy impressed me this year and I can't stand the man

Subs - I have gone for 5/3 split - but the 3 backs - do you go for a 9, 10, back 3 player or 9, utility back who can play 10, back 3 specialist?

I think Dunbar is a great shout at 12. Seems to me to have an all round game when he plays for Glasgow, and I'm hoping he's injury free for next season. Henshaw to me is a poorer version of Roberts who will be holding that twelve shirt in my opinion as I thought he was the best 12 in the competition plus he has the experience on his side

Lee and Cole are both tight heads.

Personally I think the best loose head in England doesn't even play for them, Mullan. Whether he can get his chance this year and stake his claim for England let alone the Lions is a stretch though given Vunipola and Marler have worked well.

True Raven wrote:

I think Dunbar is a great shout at 12. Seems to me to have an all round game when he plays for Glasgow, and I'm hoping he's injury free for next season.  Henshaw to me is a poorer version of Roberts who will be holding that twelve shirt in my opinion as I thought he was the best 12 in the competition plus he has the experience on his side

Roberts does not fit the way I want the team to play - I want someone with a bit of the playmaker about him at 12 - but also need someone defensively solid ( which Roberst is). a big ask but I don't want predictable crash ball.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lee and Cole are both tight heads.

 Bugger - I knew I would post something stupid in there.  I was an outside back myself so kept away from those scary boys in the front row Sort it for me will you

It's not to criticise either, I always end up forgetting someone obvious, like gatland when he accidentally left out BOD. Didn't realise til he saw him in his suit at half time apparently.

TJ wrote:

True Raven wrote:

I think Dunbar is a great shout at 12. Seems to me to have an all round game when he plays for Glasgow, and I'm hoping he's injury free for next season.  Henshaw to me is a poorer version of Roberts who will be holding that twelve shirt in my opinion as I thought he was the best 12 in the competition plus he has the experience on his side

Roberts does not fit the way I want the team to play - I want someone with a bit of the playmaker about him at 12 - but also need someone defensively solid ( which Roberst is).  a big ask but I don't want predictable crash ball.

I want Scott Williams to have the welsh 12 shirt for the next world cup period so get what you're saying

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Cyril wrote:

True Raven wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

True Raven wrote:Except he's not British or irish

He qualified to be picked on the grounds of being available to one of the 4 home nations and had been capped by 1 on them. End of story.

They're the rules I agree,however, in my opinion I think its a bit of a joke if one tour you can play against the lions yet on the following tour you can play for them

You could easily have had any British or Irish player representing a Super Rugby side against the Lions though. It just hasn't happened with anyone else (except Flutey).

Yet flutey is the only player who has been on both sides...hence I only mentioned him in the first place

I think it's more telling that very few NH players go and play in the Super Rugby due to a combination of factors (not being good enough, union rules on representing their nation when playing abroad, money better in the NH etc, homesickness etc).

Agreed, and I've highlighted to key ones in my opinion. To be good enough for Super Rugby you'd need to be an international quality player in the NH, meaning that to move to Super Rugby you'd jeopardise your international career and take a hefty pay cut.

I think it would be disingenuous to suggest that players like Cole, McGrath, Itoje, AWJ, Vunipola, Sexton, Joseph, North, Hogg et al aren't good enough for Super Rugby, but clearly the loss of income and international rugby would make it extremely unattractive.

Yes and No.

Depth is huge in NZ and SA. AUS less so and especially for tight five forwards. Its very plausible that international players in the NH simply wouldn't have got the breaks for academy contracts, junior honours etc which would been near prerequisites to playing Super rugby and then test honours for SANZAR.

For example.... I know a guy who didn't get WP craven week (apparently) starting centre for his age group because those slots went to De Wet Barry and Jean De Villiers. That was just regional representation as a schoolboy. He was decent and played one tier below Currie Cup but who knows how good he could have been if he got all the breaks i.e. academy, vodacom, currie cup experience etc.

Take Mouritz Botha. He never played super rugby, never got an academy place with a SR team. He played for Boland in the 2nd division and if I recall, he was even cut from them before re-starting his career in England lower tiers.

This is the way I see it...

play for the boks/NZ is like playing for the Lions in a test match.

play for your home nations its as good as playing for a super rugby franchise i.e. in SA - Stormers, Bulls, Cheetahs, Sharks, in NZ Canes, Blues, Chiefs, Highlanders.

So yes guys like AW Jones, Cole, Faletau, SOB etc.. they'd probably have got capped by SA or NZ.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not to criticise either, I always end up forgetting someone obvious, like gatland when he accidentally left out BOD. Didn't realise til he saw him in his suit at half time apparently.

:-) - criticise away - just give me the guys I should have had

And to be clear - my team is picked on form this 6N - so no injured players chosen or those out of form so no 1/2p etc

fa0019 Cole's still been good enough to match or indeed be better than all other THs in the NH IMO. Even if he's not in top form.

Manu could be a potential 12 if he plays like he did for Leicester on the weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uyJsLoI0tg



TJ you certainly like your THs. Almost as much as Lancaster liked his FBs...

Scotland could have done with J.Gray's leadership in the 6 nations, most of the spark IMO seemed to come from the likes of Laidlaw,Hogg and Taylor.

You honestly think AWJ would be a good impact player?

In the spirit of put up or shut up here you go...some leaps of faith here. Not logical as I'm taking a pot at some players getting a run, getting form etc

Mullan - the best loosehead, unproven (in part) at international level though. If he gets that run of games I think he'll become a mainstay.
George - again not a proven star yet but I think he'll get a chance in the AIs to really put a marker down.
Nel - this front row together to really provide a strong set piece to start with.
Kruis - top performer in the 6Ns for me and most improved player in the last 12 months.
J Gray - top player who will go onto be a Scottish legend, and probably rugby legend. Simply put I could happily pick several 2nd rows and be happy with this area. So strong.
Itoje - mobile enough, adds a great lineout option. Strong everywhere.
Hardie - great debut season into internationals.
Vunipola - wrecking ball.

Murray - not been at his best but he's just class.
Biggar -one of the top performing players in world rugby in the last 12 months. Sexton is a class player but think he's a bit on the way down now.
Watson - just gets better and better.
Roberts - great carrier, great defender and paired with a ball player...
Slade - another leap of faith. He would have been Englands 12 if fit in the 6Ns, plays 10, or 13 for his club and would work for me in this midfield. Great ball player, great defender, huge boot.
North - top player since he came into the team, egtting back to his very best.
Hogg - sensational attacker.

subs: McGrath, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, S O'Brien, Webb, Farrell and Williams

McGrath, Hartley, cole, itoje, awj, stander, Warburton, faletau, Webb, sexton, Roberts, joseph, north, Hogg, Watson

Marler, owens, lee, gray, vunipola, Murray, biggar, brown

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Think its a real problem position for the Lions to be truthful. Needs to have bags of pace to cope with an attacking NZ backline, solid tackler but also and very importantly... one that has a big and reliable boot who can go toe to toe with NZ's territorial game.

beshocked wrote:...............................


TJ you certainly like your THs. Almost as much as Lancaster liked his FBs...

Scotland could have done with J.Gray's leadership in the 6 nations, most of the spark IMO seemed to come from the likes of Laidlaw,Hogg and Taylor.

You honestly think AWJ would be a good impact player?

I thought all the fatties in the front row were interchangeable?     ( its a boneheaded mistake   )

Gray does provide leadership - by example and he is a calming influence - its clear I rate him more highly than others but I have been watching every game he has played and even before he came into the full Glasgow squad was eagerly awaiting his arrival

AJW is there as much for experience / to come on if the team needs shoring up / 'cos I couldn't leave him out of the squad but happy to listen to argument for someone else - I was just a bit wary of too many young inexperienced players in the pack

Scrum half - I went for Webb as I like halfbacks as a pair - Sexton at 10 then I would have gone for Murray - I think Murray is very good indeed - perhaps the best around right now

I really really wanted to find a place for Russell at 10 - he has unrivalled ability to break defences but in the end I couldn't risk his 2 brainfarts a game

I would rather see half backs of Webb/Biggar or Murray/Sexton - not a mix and match

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Think its a real problem position for the Lions to be truthful. Needs to have bags of pace to cope with an attacking NZ backline, solid tackler but also and very importantly... one that has a big and reliable boot who can go toe to toe with NZ's territorial game.

Assuming Halfpenny gets back to fitness he ticks all those boxes.

LordDowlais wrote:I am not saying they should be ignored, I am saying they are not as good as their Irish, Welsh or English counterparts, they could be considered, and not ignored, but in my opinion, they are not as good.

At the moment, I consider Samson Lee and Dan Cole better than Nel, I consider AWJ, Kruis, Itoji, Charteris and Toner as better options than Grey, and I consider Liam Williams, Mike Brown and Rob Kearney better than Hogg. Yes Hogg played well, butting cutting ribbons into France and Italy, Wales and Ireland is a bit different to being a high ball expert and a last line of defence against the All Blacks.

Updated that one for you - as you obviously did not watch THIS YEARS 6 nations and saw his breaks against Wales, cutting Ireland up and scoring that nice try

Not sure he missed any high balls - again I think you are thinking of previous years

Cyril wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Think its a real problem position for the Lions to be truthful. Needs to have bags of pace to cope with an attacking NZ backline, solid tackler but also and very importantly... one that has a big and reliable boot who can go toe to toe with NZ's territorial game.

Assuming Halfpenny gets back to fitness he ticks all those boxes.

Not the biggest fan of his game to be honest. Good kicker but I don't think he would warrant a place now. Can't take the tee away from Biggar now.... who is argubly just as accurate and has just a good range... if 10 and 15 are the same... always give it to the 10 as its the ultimate confidence position where you need to be the man.
After that is his defensive work and attacking game good enough to warrant a place in the welsh set up?

I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony featuring for the Lions.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony featuring for the Lions.

Will he be fit for SA tour?

fa0019 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Think its a real problem position for the Lions to be truthful. Needs to have bags of pace to cope with an attacking NZ backline, solid tackler but also and very importantly... one that has a big and reliable boot who can go toe to toe with NZ's territorial game.

Assuming Halfpenny gets back to fitness he ticks all those boxes.

Not the biggest fan of his game to be honest. Good kicker but I don't think he would warrant a place now. Can't take the tee away from Biggar now.... who is argubly just as accurate and has just a good range... if 10 and 15 are the same... always give it to the 10 as its the ultimate confidence position where you need to be the man.
After that is his defensive work and attacking game good enough to warrant a place in the welsh set up?

It does depend on how he is played. You wanted someone quick, a solid tackler and with a big reliable boot. That describes Halfpenny.

I really rate 1/2p as a player but he was not fit this6N so not considered for my team. I would happily select him for the lions if fit but would tell him to kick less and counter more than he has been allowed to by Gatland. What we really need is a hybrid of 1/2p and Hogg

fa0019 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Think its a real problem position for the Lions to be truthful. Needs to have bags of pace to cope with an attacking NZ backline, solid tackler but also and very importantly... one that has a big and reliable boot who can go toe to toe with NZ's territorial game.

Assuming Halfpenny gets back to fitness he ticks all those boxes.

Not the biggest fan of his game to be honest. Good kicker but I don't think he would warrant a place now. Can't take the tee away from Biggar now.... who is argubly just as accurate and has just a good range... if 10 and 15 are the same... always give it to the 10 as its the ultimate confidence position where you need to be the man.
After that is his defensive work and attacking game good enough to warrant a place in the welsh set up?

His technique when defending is questionable but his positional sense is unrivalled, he's always in the right spot and makes the right call. However, he's definitely a safety first player and will choose to play territory rather than a counter attacker like brown or Hogg (but that's the tactics from gatland!)

You must have missed the England vs Scotland game though.

If you were worried about too many young inexperienced players in the pack then surely best to start AWJ?

If I was picking a team that could keep every nation happy.... More of a diplomatic 23, my actual 23 would have more English.

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Nel
4.Gray
5.AWJ
6.SOB
7.Warburton
8.Vunipola

9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Dunbar
13.Taylor
14.Watson
15.Hogg

16.Vunipola
17.George
18.Ross
19.Itoje
20.Stander
21.Webb
22.Biggar
23.Manu

8 Englishmen,5 Irish, 5 Welsh, 5 Scots.

Beshocked - only one Irishman in the XV (and him being out of position) probably isn't that diplomatic. You've also got two looseheads on the bench.

Even with my Scottish hat on, I wouldn't have Taylor at 13 for the Lions. He's a fine player indeed, but it's a 50/50 call as to whether he makes the Scotland XV, and faces strong competition from Joseph, Manu, JD2 and Henshaw.