Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

FES edited it.

Taylor was one of the best players in the tournament let alone Scotland. Better than Joseph whose only tries were 3 vs a poor Italian side.

50/50 call to make the Scotland XV? He's the form centre for you at the moment.

I don't need to post videos to show why Taylor had a great 6 nations do I?

O Brien is as much of an openside as the likes of Haskell and Robshaw in my opinion. I personally think he's a 6.5.

I put Dunbar and Taylor in there to boost Scotland representation. I think both could make it.

I think if you went with a 23 based on a true quota system, you'd need the following breakdown:

England - 6
Wales - 6
Ireland - 6
Scotland 5

This would be my diplomatic 23:


1.McGrath 2.Hartley 3.Nel 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Hardie 8.Vunipola 9.Webb 10.Sexton 11.North 12.Dunbar 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Hogg


16.Lee 17.Best 18.Dickinson 19.AWJ 20.SOB 21.Murray 22.Biggar 23.Halfpenny

funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - only one Irishman in the XV (and him being out of position) probably isn't that diplomatic. You've also got two looseheads on the bench.

Even with my Scottish hat on, I wouldn't have Taylor at 13 for the Lions. He's a fine player indeed, but it's a 50/50 call as to whether he makes the Scotland XV, and faces strong competition from Joseph, Manu, JD2 and Henshaw.

Does diplomacy win test matches?

Trouble with Dunbar and Taylor is they are both big lumps - I want Joseph for his pace and slippery running. Centre for Scotland is the only position where we have real depth - Dunbar, Taylor, Scott, Bennett, Horne - so yes Taylor is not a cert for Scotland tho he took his opportunity to play very well and is arguably the man in possession. If all fit I would go for Dunbar / Bennett - but thats a whole 'nother debate

beshocked wrote:FES edited it.

Taylor was one of the best players in the tournament let alone Scotland. Better than Joseph whose only tries were 3 vs a poor Italian side.

50/50 call to make the Scotland XV? He's the form centre for you at the moment.

I don't need to post videos to show why Taylor had a great 6 nations do I?

Taylor had a great tournament, and I have noted on the Scotland threads that Mark Bennett needs to win back the jersey rather than simply assume it once his form returns, but Bennett had a remarkable World Cup and although a different type to 13 to Taylor is every bit his equal in terms of talent. On form it's Taylor, but if both were to be at their best it really is a 50/50 call.

So coach. My choice would be Rob Baxter. Done wonders for Exeter, plays the game the way I think it should be played. Got the experience. I don't want any of the national sides coaches.

There's plenty of 13's better than Taylor, Bennett for starters.

FES,

He has 3 in the XV, does he not?

fa0019 no it doesn't but 2005 Lions was overly stacked with over the hill Englishmen.

TJ Taylor is a very skilled player. He's not just a lump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmGGX2Qyvc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBxN3Ixw2Ok&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cSM190XWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvKYTOis89o

Last is a super offload for Goode. Taylor in the same game scored a try too.

People write off Taylor because he's not got the outright pace of other players but he's got a good skillset.

I have no issue with Taylor being a good player - he is indeed and shone in the 6N. Its just in my selection I wanted out and out pace and evasive running at 13 hence Joseph. Want to play a different way then Taylor would do fine.

Picking a team to fit the "bosh" style that SA have at times been successful with against the ABs, and sticking to players who are at least in the frame, etc.

McGrath
George
Cole
Kruis
Henderson
Hughes
SOB
Vunipola
Murray
Farrell
Seymour
Roberts
Tuilagi
North
Brown

Vunipola
McInally
Lee
J. Gray
Stander
Webb
Biggar
Earls

If you want pace then stick May on the wing too instead of North......

Who is going to be your organiser? Joseph is a speedster but wouldn't see him taking the leadership role.

What's your preferred lineup beshocked?

fa0019 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony featuring for the Lions.

Will he be fit for SA tour?

Yes. He might feature in the next game for Munster off the bench. We've really missed him this season.

beshocked wrote:fa0019 no it doesn't but 2005 Lions was overly stacked with over the hill Englishmen.

TJ Taylor is a very skilled player. He's not just a lump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmGGX2Qyvc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBxN3Ixw2Ok&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cSM190XWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvKYTOis89o

Last is a super offload for Goode. Taylor in the same game scored a try too.

People write off Taylor because he's not got the outright pace of other players but he's got a good skillset.

A little but not as much as people think

Here was the Englishman in that squad

Forwards
Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, White, Thompson, Titterrell, Grewcock, Kay, Back, Corry, Dallaglio, Hill, Moody

Backs
Dawson, Hodgson, Wilkinson, Smith, Greenwood, Balshaw, Robinson, Lewsey

Of those who was not worthy of initial selection? Remember the tour was a big one with about 45 tourists initially. Back was an odd one given SCW himself dropped him. Dallaglio was playing well pre tour and you can understand NZ suited thugs like White and Grewcock.  From memory my only gripes at the time was Kevin Morgan, Davies the hooker and Jason White. I recall Graham Henry saying that if there was one player he'd like to bring back to NZ with him which would it be and he said Morgan.  Wilkinson wasn't fully fit and short of game time but can you blame SCW for that selection? Spacemen from Mars would have picked Wilkinson in 2005 even if he was in a plastercast from head to toe (probably a likely scenario in 2005).

Remember that McGeechan himself was no saint. He picked Peter Wright and Richard Wallace in 93... 2 of the worst Lions in recent history (probably with Charvis, Carling, Earls, Powell, Bryne).

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony featuring for the Lions.

Will he be fit for SA tour?

Yes. He might feature in the next game for Munster off the bench. We've really missed him this season.

A backrow of Stander, O'Mahony and O'Brien would be pretty fearsome... if one could play 8? Stander?

beshocked wrote:If you want pace then stick May on the wing too instead of North......

Who is going to be your organiser? Joseph is a speedster but wouldn't see him taking the leadership role.

I decided Norths form left him too hard to leave out - But I would have liked May or Nowell on the wing - or even Seymour.  And of course there is also a certain Mr S Lamont - by his own admission the fastest man in Scotland!

My Organiser would be Dunbar but a load of folk don't think much of him hence in the revised team he got a question mark against him but no one has come up with a better 12 for the way I want to play

fa0019 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - only one Irishman in the XV (and him being out of position) probably isn't that diplomatic. You've also got two looseheads on the bench.

Even with my Scottish hat on, I wouldn't have Taylor at 13 for the Lions. He's a fine player indeed, but it's a 50/50 call as to whether he makes the Scotland XV, and faces strong competition from Joseph, Manu, JD2 and Henshaw.

Does diplomacy win test matches?

Nope, which is why I don't give it the time of day. The head coach should select the players he feels are best equipped to win the series. Nothing else matters.

Anyone else for Coach - or do we go with Rob Baxter

fa0019 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony featuring for the Lions.

Will he be fit for SA tour?

Yes. He might feature in the next game for Munster off the bench. We've really missed him this season.

A backrow of Stander, O'Mahony and O'Brien would be pretty fearsome... if one could play 8? Stander?

Stander usually plays 8 for Munster - our starting backrow would be 6 POM, 7 TOD 8 CJ. We also have a very good young 8 coming through, Jack O'Donoghue.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Beshocked - only one Irishman in the XV (and him being out of position) probably isn't that diplomatic. You've also got two looseheads on the bench.

Even with my Scottish hat on, I wouldn't have Taylor at 13 for the Lions. He's a fine player indeed, but it's a 50/50 call as to whether he makes the Scotland XV, and faces strong competition from Joseph, Manu, JD2 and Henshaw.

Does diplomacy win test matches?

Nope, which is why I don't give it the time of day. The head coach should select the players he feels are best equipped to win the series. Nothing else matters

Why McGeechan has seen success and others have not in all probability. He in many instances was able to remove himself from the situation and look at his home players in the eye when he next met them for training even though he didn't select them.

Would love Baxter to go as the forwards coach.

fa0019 wrote:

beshocked wrote:fa0019 no it doesn't but 2005 Lions was overly stacked with over the hill Englishmen.

TJ Taylor is a very skilled player. He's not just a lump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmGGX2Qyvc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBxN3Ixw2Ok&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cSM190XWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvKYTOis89o

Last is a super offload for Goode. Taylor in the same game scored a try too.

People write off Taylor because he's not got the outright pace of other players but he's got a good skillset.

A little but not as much as people think

Here was the Englishman in that squad

Forwards
Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, White, Thompson, Titterrell, Grewcock, Kay, Back, Corry, Dallaglio, Hill, Moody

Backs
Dawson, Hodgson, Wilkinson, Smith, Greenwood, Balshaw, Robinson, Lewsey

Of those who was not worthy of initial selection? Remember the tour was a big one with about 45 tourists initially. Back was an odd one given SCW himself dropped him. Dallaglio was playing well pre tour and you can understand NZ suited thugs like White and Grewcock.  From memory my only gripes at the time was Kevin Morgan, Davies the hooker and Jason White. I recall Graham Henry saying that if there was one player he'd like to bring back to NZ with him which would it be and he said Morgan.  Wilkinson wasn't fully fit and short of game time but can you blame SCW for that selection? Spacemen from Mars would have picked Wilkinson in 2005 even if he was in a plastercast from head to toe (probably a likely scenario in 2005).

Remember that McGeechan himself was no saint. He picked Peter Wright and Richard Wallace in 93... 2 of the worst Lions in recent history (probably with Charvis, Carling, Earls, Powell, Bryne).

It's taxing my memory a little, but I've put those in bold that would have been questionnable to me. I'll need to do some digging to name the better alternatives though, but certainly there were good cases for Jason White and Chris Paterson from a Scotland perspective, and it is implausible that there wasn't a better alternative to Andy Titterall.

As for Wilkinson, whilst I agree that there was a case for him to tour, despite his injuries, playing him at 12 in that 1st Test was an utterly daft decision from Sir Clive "Winning" Woodward.

Did I just read that Taylor isn't quick? Please go and rewatch his try v France, or tracking Tom James down, he's plenty quick enough, and more so than JD2 or Tuilagi easily.

Pace isn't a determining factor at 13 IMO, structure and awareness are far more important, both defencively and going forward, just go and rewatch the try scoring passes he made, and a few try saving tackles too!

Taylor was hands down the best 13 in the tournament, and thats officially his shirt, if i'm picking a lions 15 today he's starting 13 outside Roberts.

Jason White was robbed by not going - a huge travesty

Didn't I hear somewhere that White had a hand in not being selected? Something to do with farming duties, and only making himself available for a portion of the tour?
Maybe I'm making that up, but I thought there were talks, anyone know?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

beshocked wrote:fa0019 no it doesn't but 2005 Lions was overly stacked with over the hill Englishmen.

TJ Taylor is a very skilled player. He's not just a lump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAmGGX2Qyvc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBxN3Ixw2Ok&nohtml5=False

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cSM190XWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvKYTOis89o

Last is a super offload for Goode. Taylor in the same game scored a try too.

People write off Taylor because he's not got the outright pace of other players but he's got a good skillset.

A little but not as much as people think

Here was the Englishman in that squad

Forwards
Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, White, Thompson, Titterrell, Grewcock, Kay, Back, Corry, Dallaglio, Hill, Moody

Backs
Dawson, Hodgson, Wilkinson, Smith, Greenwood, Balshaw, Robinson, Lewsey

Of those who was not worthy of initial selection? Remember the tour was a big one with about 45 tourists initially. Back was an odd one given SCW himself dropped him. Dallaglio was playing well pre tour and you can understand NZ suited thugs like White and Grewcock.  From memory my only gripes at the time was Kevin Morgan, Davies the hooker and Jason White. I recall Graham Henry saying that if there was one player he'd like to bring back to NZ with him which would it be and he said Morgan.  Wilkinson wasn't fully fit and short of game time but can you blame SCW for that selection? Spacemen from Mars would have picked Wilkinson in 2005 even if he was in a plastercast from head to toe (probably a likely scenario in 2005).

Remember that McGeechan himself was no saint. He picked Peter Wright and Richard Wallace in 93... 2 of the worst Lions in recent history (probably with Charvis, Carling, Earls, Powell, Bryne).

It's taxing my memory a little, but I've put those in bold that would have been questionnable to me. I'll need to do some digging to name the better alternatives though, but certainly there were good cases for Jason White and Chris Paterson from a Scotland perspective, and it is implausible that there wasn't a better alternative to Andy Titterall.

As for Wilkinson, whilst I agree that there was a case for him to tour, despite his injuries, playing him at 12 in that 1st Test was an utterly daft decision from Sir Clive "Winning" Woodward.

Kay I think is harsh. He was a decent player. I mean who else was there Sidoli, Scott Murray as mid jumper? Kay had pedigree. Grewcock... sort of understandable but its Grewcock vs. Hines vs. Cockbain... to be honest is there any real injustice there. Grewcock was massive in 2001 and that counts for a lot.

Yeah I always disliked Titterall, another member of the mighty mouse hookers brigade the words "workrate, speed" continue to go around to this day with modern members.
The problem with Paterson is that he never did enough to justify selection in any tour. He could kick but his speed was dire and that's the one place where Balshaw had him as a fullback. Defensively too Paterson was a bit of a lightweight. Lacking in pace and strength at 15 is a big nono

Fanster wrote:Didn't I hear somewhere that White had a hand in not being selected? Something to do with farming duties, and only making himself available for a portion of the tour?
Maybe I'm making that up, but I thought there were talks, anyone know?

I knew White (the english prop) was a farmer but didn't know Jason white was?

Kay had declined badly since 2003. In fact he was pretty awful in the 2003 World Cup as well - had a dreadful final. He peaked in 2002-2003 and was never a form pick in 2005. "Pedigree" sadly doesn't count for much. As for Grewcock, Cockbain, Hines, White and Shaw would have been better "form" picks for the initial squad.

I'm not going to disagree on Paterson as regards his weaknesses, and he'd never have ousted Lewsey from the Test jersey, but selecting Balshaw in international rugby after 2001-2002 just didn't make sense. He was a busted flush with no confidence whatsoever. Yes, Paterson may not have been ideal, but a better pick in 2005 than Balshaw.

It wasn't just his preference for his 2003 England players that was odd. Michael Owen selected ahead of Ryan Jones looks wrong as well.

Just looking at the squad, you probably didn't need Balshaw or Paterson to be honest. Thomas, Lewsey, Murphy and Robinson also toured.

fa0019 wrote:

Fanster wrote:Didn't I hear somewhere that White had a hand in not being selected? Something to do with farming duties, and only making himself available for a portion of the tour?
Maybe I'm making that up, but I thought there were talks, anyone know?

I knew White (the english prop) was a farmer but didn't know Jason white was?

Jason White isn't/wasn't.

fa0019 wrote:......................
The problem with Paterson is that he never did enough to justify selection in any tour. He could kick but his speed was dire and that's the one place where Balshaw had him as a fullback. Defensively too Paterson was a bit of a lightweight. Lacking in pace and strength at 15 is a big nono

He had technique tho rarely missed a tackle and IIRC took downLomu in a one on one ( can't find a clip -maybe my imagination) anyway - heres a clip of Patterson on foden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ratc3RZpe4A

beshocked wrote:FES edited it.

Taylor was one of the best players in the tournament let alone Scotland. Better than Joseph whose only tries were 3 vs a poor Italian side.

50/50 call to make the Scotland XV? He's the form centre for you at the moment.

I don't need to post videos to show why Taylor had a great 6 nations do I?

O Brien is as much of an openside as the likes of Haskell and Robshaw in my opinion. I personally think he's a 6.5.

I put Dunbar and Taylor in there to boost Scotland representation. I think both could make it.

I'm not sure why people are still saying this. He has been playing 7 almost exclusively for about 4 or 5 years now. His greatest asset to the team has been his breakdown work, where he is probably better than anyone else in Ireland. The fact that he is also a good ball carrier (though not nearly as explosive as before all his injuries) doesn't negate the fact he makes a lot of turnovers each game.

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Exactly, this is why I would pick others in front of him.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hogg - sensational attacker.

In fairness, v. ABs, its a sensational defender you need at fullback  

Exactly, this is why I would pick others in front of him.

If Kearney could only find some form again he would be peerless IMO. Perfect for NZ when full guns blazing.

Hogg's defence is fine, certainly not a weakness.

You don't pick a backline, especially a back 3 player with the primary skill required being defence.

If this was the case we'd see a backline involving Farrell, Barritt, Payne, Trimble......that won't worry the AB's.

No I want my fullback to be faultless under the high ball, a good boot, can tackle, and has impeccable positional sense, and be half decent with the ball in hand.

Hogg is probably the best in the 6N with the ball in hand, but that pro does not outweigh his cons, there will be a lot less attacking, and a lot more defending against the All Blacks, thus I would not pick Hogg, for me Hogg is a luxury player.

Hogg a luxury player?!?! Completley baffled by that comment.

You don't beat the AB's by trying to defend for 80mins, you take the game to them.

"Half decent ball in hand"

Not just decent but half decent!

I get what some say about Hogg in defence, sometimes his technique lets him down... i.e. first try for France in 6N.

For me if Kearney gets back to fitness and form he gets the nod. Halfpenny maybe but I'd prefer Brown as he has a good boot for the crucial territory battle.

In the end its a mix... you won't beat NZ simply by defending well, at some point you have to score points for yourself.

I think people are over egging the Hogg defense weaknesses

I am pretty sure the rest of the full backs missed tackles and Hogg did not miss many

He did not drop a high ball this 6 nations

But people will see what they want when they want to make excuses for disliking a player

Even as an England fan I wouldn't have Brown.

Halfpenny & Keaney have no form, especially the latter who looks to be on the decline at a rate.

If Watson gets some game time he may be a viable option.

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny maybe but I'd prefer Brown as he has a good boot for the crucial territory battle.

Halfpenny kicks much better from hand, and just as long, as Brown. For all his bravery and running back kicks, Brown is far too blinkered in attack whilst just an opinion but Halfpenny is the stronger tackler and just as good under the high ball as Brown.

It has been quite some time since Kearney was on form, and chances are he willnot be Irelands FB in 2017 6Ns - unless he shows a massive improvement.

Riskysports wrote:I think people are over egging the Hogg defense weaknesses

I am pretty sure the rest of the full backs missed tackles and Hogg did not miss many

He did not drop a high ball this 6 nations

But people will see what they want when they want to make excuses for disliking a player

he's very much a marmite player. I think its because like Mike Catt, Percy Montegomery etc... they can do amazing things with the ball one minute and then screw up a little the next; for me he does tend to drop the ball a bit when in contact etc. He's a on the margins type of player so its a little expected, looking for the offload so never places it in the breadbasket.

Totally agree Risky. If you'd have seen Hogg play for the first time this 6N's, you wouldn't be suggesting he has poor defence.

LondonTiger wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Halfpenny maybe but I'd prefer Brown as he has a good boot for the crucial territory battle.

Halfpenny kicks much better from hand, and just as long, as Brown. For all his bravery and running back kicks, Brown is far too blinkered in attack whilst just an opinion but Halfpenny is the stronger tackler and just as good under the high ball as Brown.

It has been quite some time since Kearney was on form, and chances are he willnot be Irelands FB in 2017 6Ns - unless he shows a massive improvement.

Admittedly its a push I agree.

Hoggs got a huge boot if what you want is clearance kicks. I'd love to see 1/2p play given license to counter attack tho

Are full backs the new scrum halves - ie is being a stroppy git now a part of the job description? Hogg - stroppy git, Kearney - stroppy git, Brown - perpetually angry, Liam Williams - like a good scrap

Not sure who says Hogg didn't drop a high ball, but clearly you havn't been watching...

He dropped plenty, contested poorly at times, and in 3/4 pretty large cases failed to get under them at all.

There are 4 big examples of Hogg's defencive issues...

V France, Guirado steps him 10m out, while Hogg has hime lined up, he barely got fingertips to him. In this case his footwork and guts let him down.

V Italy he crawls across the field and 4m out buys a dummy from Ghiraldini, shoots outside him to cover a back while Ghiraldinin goes in untouched.

V Ireland he is in nowheresville, has no right to try to claim the ball due to his positioning but through sheer ego decides he's in charge and wipes out Seymour?

V England where Scotland were outnumbered out wide, and he fails to react to Vunipolas pass, expecting him to take contact and he barely gets a hand to Nowell as he goes over the line.

IMO those 4 are mistakes that Brown and Williams both cover regularly.

Liam Williams makes plenty of errors in defence too, he's certainly weaker in that department than halfpenny and not the greatest positionally. Im with pooly that Id have Hogg as fullback to scare NZ with his pace. Being solid isn't going to get a win.