Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

I understand and respect all the arguments against this kind of post 18 months before but the proper journalists are all having a so we might as well. It happens after every tournament.

For what it's worth I'd pick:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. J. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Faletau
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Webb
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. McGrath
17. MacInally
18. Lee
19. Itoje
20. Stander
21. Youngs
22. Biggar
23. Halfpenny

True Raven wrote:Liam Williams makes plenty of errors in defence too, he's certainly weaker in that department than halfpenny and not the greatest positionally.  Im with pooly that Id have Hogg as fullback to scare NZ with his pace.  Being solid isn't going to get a win.

That was my view -- I selected and want a team that is going to score a bucket full of tries. I'd much rather go down fighting 24-36 than try to defend all game and lose 7-3

Somebody really doesn't like Hogg!

All players make mistakes with fullbacks perhaps more noticeable due to being the last line of defence.

Look at the magic moments Hogg produced, which other fullback got close?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Somebody really doesn't like Hogg!

All players make mistakes with fullbacks perhaps more noticeable due to being the last line of defence.

Look at the magic moments Hogg produced, which other fullback got close?

Forgetting the fact that I selected Hogg in my lions 15, and forgetting that I selected him in my list of players of the tournament...

No I absolutely hate the guy hahahaha

Maybe read a bit of the thread, before making accusations?

So you disagree Hogg hasn't got a big issue with his defence, please highlight of the 4 incidents I've mentioned which ones I am wrong about.

My point is you can't claim Hogg never drops a high ball, or has been defencively sound as Williams or Brown this year, based on your no evidence, and general feeling he is godly.

Fanster - are you getting your evidence from the same evidence drawer where you found Billy Vunipola to be a non-tackling, 50 minute one dimensional number 8? I wouldn't be so quick to accuse others of non-evidence.

Stuart Hogg is fine defensively and he is certainly no worse than the other options. He is currently miles ahead in terms of attacking prowess. Besides, no team worth talking about selects their fullback primarily for their defensive duties. Even SA, known for their conservative style of play, select Willie Le Roux because of the danger he possesses.

True Raven wrote:Liam Williams makes plenty of errors in defence too, he's certainly weaker in that department than halfpenny and not the greatest positionally.  Im with pooly that Id have Hogg as fullback to scare NZ with his pace.  Being solid isn't going to get a win.

I'm no hater of Hogg having selected him in my team, but this view of Liam Williams is quite outdated.

Calm down princess, I was hardly attacking you. I didn't suggest Hogg had never dropped a ball.

mikey_dragon wrote:

True Raven wrote:Liam Williams makes plenty of errors in defence too, he's certainly weaker in that department than halfpenny and not the greatest positionally.  Im with pooly that Id have Hogg as fullback to scare NZ with his pace.  Being solid isn't going to get a win.

I'm no hater of Hogg having selected him in my team, but this view of Liam Williams is quite outdated.

He's what played 8/9 games this year and he's by far been defensively solid.  In his only scarlets game against Connacht missed a couple of tackles (you can blame it on rustiness as he hadn't played since the world cup). Out of position for one of the Italian tries and dropped a simple high ball against Ireland (just two examples off the top of my head).  So no, I'm sticking with my view point that he's not defensively solid as halfpenny

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Calm down princess, I was hardly attacking you. I didn't suggest Hogg had never dropped a ball.

Just consider if this tone helps create discussion, or is just petty and childish.

With regards to Hoggs defence, please show me how/why i'm wrong.

What tone?

Hogg's defence is fine, I'm not sure what more to add. You can pick holes in every player.

Show me a FB that has produced as much magic as Hogg this 6N.

fa0019 wrote:

Here are the Englishman in that squad

Forwards
Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, White, Thompson, Titterrell, Grewcock, Kay, Back, Corry, Dallaglio, Hill, Moody

Backs
Dawson, Hodgson, Wilkinson, Smith, Greenwood, Balshaw, Robinson, Lewsey

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Greenwood's selection. He was well past his best, and was only really selected as a leading figure for the midweek side. Injury carnage among Lions backs saw him start the last Test alongside Thomas in the midfield.

Among all the players, I can only really recall Shane Horgan and Ryan Jones having a decent tour in 2005.

Problem with Liam Williams is that he is either injured or just coming back from injury. He might be in for a shout for the Lions if he puts the injury problems behind him next year.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What tone?

Hogg's defence is fine, I'm not sure what more to add. You can pick holes in every player.

Show me a FB that has produced as much magic as Hogg this 6N.

So in a discussion about Hoggs defencive issues, and problems under a high ball, your respnse to 4 key errors is...

'Ye but no, he attacks well'

Your not sure what to add because i assume your not sure what it is you're looking at, rugby is difficult to understand isn't it princess?

lostinwales wrote:Problem with Liam Williams is that he is either injured or just coming back from injury. He might be in for a shout for the Lions if he puts the injury problems behind him next year.

Thats probably why I selected Brown over him in my lions 15, Williams has been solid, but going forward so unspectacular, in the Irish game he was doing his best Cuthbert impression, well without all the slips, fake falling out of tackles, and dropping 75% of ball that came his way...

Fanster wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What tone?

Hogg's defence is fine, I'm not sure what more to add. You can pick holes in every player.

Show me a FB that has produced as much magic as Hogg this 6N.

So in a discussion about Hoggs defencive issues, and problems under a high ball, your respnse to 4 key errors is...

'Ye but no, he attacks well'

Your not sure what to add because i assume your not sure what it is you're looking at, rugby is difficult to understand isn't it princess?

No need for that tone <img src="https://2img.net/i/fa//i/smiles/icon_wink.gif" data-sceditor-emoticon="" alt="" title="">

You've made it about Hogg's defence, I've zero issue with it.

If you were Scottish however you would, he has to do a better job in his workrate off the ball, his reaction and spacial awareness, theres only so many times he can sit on his bum punching the ground in frustration with himself, in blue it can be overlooked, in red you don't get a second chance, especially against the all blacks.

But feel free to highlight me evidence of his ability in the air, or defencive strength, or perhaps even react to the 4 examples I provided that you've avoided thus far.

He's a good defender who makes the odd error, like all FB's.

How about you show us another fullback who produced as much attacking wise this 6n?

You don't rate him, I don't really care.

Seems odd to see Kearney mentioned. He's not even the best player in his family any more (and that really is saying something).I wouldn't put him in the top 5 qualified full backs for the Lions. Great in 2009 but nowhere near selection now.

True Raven wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

True Raven wrote:Liam Williams makes plenty of errors in defence too, he's certainly weaker in that department than halfpenny and not the greatest positionally.  Im with pooly that Id have Hogg as fullback to scare NZ with his pace.  Being solid isn't going to get a win.

I'm no hater of Hogg having selected him in my team, but this view of Liam Williams is quite outdated.

He's what played 8/9 games this year and he's by far been defensively solid.  In his only scarlets game against Connacht missed a couple of tackles (you can blame it on rustiness as he hadn't played since the world cup). Out of position for one of the Italian tries and dropped a simple high ball against Ireland (just two examples off the top of my head).  So no, I'm sticking with my view point that he's not defensively solid as halfpenny

you said he makes plenty of errors in defence, and that's simply not true.

Hogg is the perfect #23 for me. Great to bring off the bench if/when the game opens up. There's no doubting he's electric with ball in hand. I'd maybe be a little concerned with his distribution, and generally bringing others into play; do Scotland and Glasgow fans think he has a slight tendency to try and do it all by himself sometimes? Surely only a matter of experience, easy to iron out.

I'd put him on the bench in the same way Owen Farrell would be a useful bench player. In those two, you have the whole backline covered from #22 and #23. Now, that's not the sole criteria for selecting a bench, but versatility is necessary on a Lions tour, where the sheer nature of it dictates that some players will end up playing a position they usually do not.

Hogg is a bit like Beauden Barrett in that he's devastating with ball in hand, really quick, great skills, great boot (slightly more deft in Barrett's case), but also prone to making errors because of the manner in which they play. It's why NZ tend to put him on the bench for big games, because he's useful to bring on and either kill a game off, or get them back into it.

Touring NZ will be monstrously hard. It's conceivable that the Lions could end up losing every single game on the Tour if the Super Rugby teams put out a competitive selection. I don't think that will happen, however, the leap up in the standard from Australia will be marked. I think you have to go toe to toe with NZ in as many areas as you can; that doesn't mean ape their style, as you'll only ever be second best. Instead, pick players who have the bite and guile and skill to want to actually play rugby. Hogg's one of those players. Equally, for Wales, I'd say Liam Williams and Scott Williams are as well. They're players who I think could play successully in NZ, as they have the skillset to go with the physicality and attitude. Jamie Roberts, for all his pedigree and experience, does not, and I would not take him on the Tour, as undeniably useful at his particular craft as he is. For a well educated, senior, and apparently authoritative man, he also does not lead a team as well as he should. The Lions have to mix Northern Hemisphere gamesmanship with an almost Native American style get-in-and-get-out attack ploy, where they ramp up the intensity for a short period of time, put width on it, try to score tries, before bringing the game back down to a more manageable tempo. Easier said than done, especially in NZ, but the Lions will not win the series playing 10 man rugby, nor will they win it by trying to play like Australia. Something closer to the South Africans: a rock solid defence, tidy set piece (they're unlikely to get any dominance, but at least aim for parity), concise and cohesive breakdown, and an attack that is efficient and expansive only when the situation demands it. In short, play like Gatland hopes Wales can at their best.

Spot the Scarlets fan...

World War III would break out on a tour that had Williams, Hartley, Farrell and Browne. Most of them are going to have to be left at home in the interests of harmiony on the tour.

Sin e

I think it will all depend on who the head coach will be. and who will be the dominant team/squad in the 2017 6ns.

If England win the Grand Slam again next year. ( note, not saying they will ) but if they do. it would be hard to leave Farrell, and Hartley, and Browne at home. Again in my opinion it will all depend on who the head coach will be.

Thats why I want a head coach who is not a home nations international side coach.  My pick is Baxter with an assistant coach from the pro 12 - toonie?

mikey_dragon wrote:Spot the Scarlets fan...

Nic Cudd 4 Wales

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Spot the Scarlets fan...

Nic Cudd 4 Wales

I wouldn't pick him for Wales, neither would I pick James Davies. Next season who knows...

Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams are shocking calls IMO. Roberts with either Taylor or Joseph outside him for me.

Apart from Hogg there are no B&I players who compare favourably with the skills of their AB counterparts, so the only way the Lions will compete is through brute force. Roberts is an absolute certainty for the starting shirt.

I disagree on that - you will not beat NZ thru brute force. If Roberts is picked ( and I agree he had a very good six nations) then we will have gone down a blind alley. This has been tried in the past and it does not work. We need the right combination of strength and guile A strong set piece to steal their ball and give us a good attacking platform but we need speed and guile to score the tries we will surely need to win. Attack the breakdown hard to disrupt their possession and slow them down. Speed and slippery running to create space, a very strong counter attack

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

Very much a matter of opinion and of the style you want to play. He wouldn't get into the scotland side as we don't play crash ball every time of first phase

But he would definitely shore up the porous defence Scotland has

True, and if you don't want Roberts to take it up on the crash ball then either call a different move, or pass to the 13 or blind-side winger - it might just be me but that's not exactly rocket science...

mikey_dragon wrote:True, and if you don't want Roberts to take it up on the crash ball then either call a different move, or pass to the 13 or blind-side winger - it might just be me but that's not exactly rocket science...

Are yes but that is the one thing that Roberts does not seem to do. Pass the ball.

majesticimperialman wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:True, and if you don't want Roberts to take it up on the crash ball then either call a different move, or pass to the 13 or blind-side winger - it might just be me but that's not exactly rocket science...

Are yes but that is the one thing that Roberts does not seem to do. Pass the ball.

Then you haven't been watching rugby, and I'm not surprised in the slightest.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/feb/24/wales-rugby-union-jamie-roberts-six-nations-2016?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=The+Breakdown+main&utm_term=158733&subid=1310838&CMP=EMCSPTEML866

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

The way Manu is playing, if he continues to play at 12, he may dispute that comment

And both Dunbar and Taylor - and supporters of Henshaw might have their say - to say nothing of Joseph

TJ wrote:And both Dunbar and Taylor - and supporters of Henshaw might have their say - to say nothing of Joseph

Joseph isn't a 12.

true - I thought the question was about centres not 12s - misread.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

The way Manu is playing, if he continues to play at 12, he may dispute that comment

Borrowing miaow's crystal ball now are you? Tuilagi, Dunbar, Taylor and Henshaw are all quality players so I expect that they might all be in the mix in 2017. I've also been under the impression that we've each been selecting our team based on the most recent 6N form, where it was seen by all that Roberts was the best 12. He's been in great form for Quins all season too.

mikey_dragon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

The way Manu is playing, if he continues to play at 12, he may dispute that comment

Borrowing miaow's crystal ball now are you? Tuilagi, Dunbar, Taylor and Henshaw are all quality players so I expect that they might all be in the mix in 2017. I've also been under the impression that we've each been selecting our team based on the most recent 6N form, where it was seen by all that Roberts was the best 12. He's been in great form for Quins all season too.

As we are posting about possibilities for what could happen next year, we are all borrowing someone's crystal ball.

I suspect that the Irish would say that Henshaw was clearly the best 12 in the 6N, the English on the other hand could argue for Farrell, different sort of 12, but he was very effective and contained Roberts pretty well. National bias tends to make you think your players are the best, but as the song says, "It ain't necessarily so".

Tuilagi is total scrying, but he made mincemeat out of Stade yesterday and is well above the level that anybody thought he would be at this stage of his comeback. He has everything that Roberts has and more, plus he has learned to pass; must have spent some of his time out usefully.

And under the tutelage of Mr Mauger who is no doubt having a huge impact on him

Guys like Roberts work if you have forwards dominance or at least parity. If your 10 is under pressure than another ball handler/kicker is very useful if not necessary.
Sometimes that can come from a 15 but often it comes from a 12.

Tuilagi has the same issue as Roberts to be fair. My issue with Tuilagi is that I think he can take the ball with better line speed which Roberts is excellent at.

For me I'd still prefer to face NZ with a second five-eigth, my own view is that teams that do best against NZ control territory. Having options as 9, 10, 12 and 15 may be a little conservative but its about winning.

Not sure the lions have the 12 or the 15 though to play that game mind.

England have 2 options at 13 which offer that kicking/territory game in Slade or Daly which would probably fit well with a Roberts or Tuilagi.

Against NZ though at 13... you need speed as they will run down that channel all day. Does the above 2 have that.. and we're talking about test match pace?

Watched Slade on the weekend. He was half decent, but I wouldn't say noticeable. One swallow doesn't make a summer mind.

I like Joseph at 13 because he's got a good attacking game, is a decent tackler and also has the pace to fall back on if required. But that does mean playing a more conservative 12... but who would that be? But whoever plays 13 needs pace for me.

Tricky situation.

Slade is ok, not blistering. Daly is blistering.

Slade for me is going to be the stand out English back in a year or so. The guys class.

Joseph has a below average kicking game, and to be fair at the moment it looks as if it's going to be Roberts/Tuilagi at 12.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

miaow wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:
Leaving the best 12 in the NH (Roberts) out of the Lions but picking an injured Williams

Seen into next season have we?

No but you have somehow seen into 2017 and selected him? Roberts is currently the best 12 in the NH.

The way Manu is playing, if he continues to play at 12, he may dispute that comment

Borrowing miaow's crystal ball now are you? Tuilagi, Dunbar, Taylor and Henshaw are all quality players so I expect that they might all be in the mix in 2017. I've also been under the impression that we've each been selecting our team based on the most recent 6N form, where it was seen by all that Roberts was the best 12. He's been in great form for Quins all season too.

As we are posting about possibilities for what could happen next year, we are all borrowing someone's crystal ball.

I suspect that the Irish would say that Henshaw was clearly the best 12 in the 6N, the English on the other hand could argue for Farrell, different sort of 12, but he was very effective and contained Roberts pretty well. National bias tends to make you think your players are the best, but as the song says, "It ain't necessarily so".

Tuilagi is total scrying, but he made mincemeat out of Stade yesterday and is well above the level that anybody thought he would be at this stage of his comeback. He has everything that Roberts has and more, plus he has learned to pass; must have spent some of his time out usefully.

Yes they could close one eye and say that, but Roberts was actually the best 12 in the tournament.

Putting Roberts in a Lions side or not, for me depends on what you'd like to see and who's next to him.

Roberts and Joseph would be good IMO...

If Joseph could get back to his best possibly. I think he may well be hanging on come the summer if he gets replaced for England. Slade, Daly, Joseph and Tuilagi will be battling it out. A couple of younger players putting pressure on him like Mallinder possibly by the Lions as well.

Davies can do a job, I don't doubt that for a minute but I think Joseph offers a bit more in attack and has a lot more pace (albeit Davies is no slouch and any diff is probably half down to Gatlands demands to see his backline weigh more than his front five).

But the position needs experience. Its the cog that the entire backline relies on.