Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

Not sure about Clifford at 6.

I'd play him at 8 and have him as captain

yappysnap wrote:Not sure about Clifford at 6.

I'd play him at 8 and have him as captain

I was struggling for an up and comer at 6, if we have ruled out the curent top 4

LondonTiger wrote:Robinson is surely nailed on to be a Lions starter, so no point him risking injury in a meaningless test.

Fair point LT, I've heard this also but I totally forgot.

Mark Wilson at 6 maybe??

Mark Wilson reminds me so much of one of your old boys, Phil Dowson. A fine rugby player, solid in all facets with good rugby intelligence - however is there any stand out skill that would enable him to be a genuine international contender? Would love to have him at Tigers, but in large part due to knowing he would be available throughout the season and could fill in wherever needed.

I agree LT.

He wont make the top grade interntional, but he is a cracking prem player.

If we are struggling for 6s then I would have no qualms putting him in the Saxons team and having some kids in other positions. A workhorse 6, whos powerful enough to standout at lock in the prem can only help the young kids. And he is a leader.

Maybe Tom Wood or Croft will go instead...with Kvesic etc.

It'll be interesting to see.

king_carlos wrote:A mix of those you name will surely come through, Cumbrian.

I haven't put Sam James or Harry Mallinder in that 'Saxons squad' as I presume they will be with the JWC - I hope they are anyway.

James is 21 and should be the starting 13 with the Saxons.

England are only .88 of a point ahead of Wales in the World Rugby rankings. Australia are currently about 5.5 points ahead of England.

Although both sides will be missing players, I think Eddie will take the Wales game very seriously, and will keep as many of his 6N squad together as he has available. It's an oddly timed game, but very much a warm-up for the tour, so I don't think he'll be throwing players in for the sake of it. Some of the fringe guys will get a chance to push for a squad place, though.

"Maybe Tom Wood or Croft will go instead...with Kvesic etc."

Hope not. Both Croft and Wood are as ineffective as each other at test level. England would be seriously under strength if ever they took the field together.

Tom Wood could maybe get a chance to play for England again. I did say maybe?


Tom Croft. NO. I very mutch doubt he will ever be in an England shirt again.

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:A mix of those you name will surely come through, Cumbrian.

I haven't put Sam James or Harry Mallinder in that 'Saxons squad' as I presume they will be with the JWC - I hope they are anyway.

James is 21 and should be the starting 13 with the Saxons.

I was getting mixed up between Sam James and Johnny Williams with their ages.

Agreed that James should be with Saxons. I'd perhaps have Lowe as starting 13 ahead of him though.

Johnny Williams will hopefully be back with the u20s for the JWC having missed the 6 Nations when he was starting for LI.

LondonTiger wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Not sure about Clifford at 6.

I'd play him at 8 and have him as captain

I was struggling for an up and comer at 6, if we have ruled out the curent top 4

How about:

6. Harrison
7. Wallace
8. Clifford

Although saying that I think this season is too early for Clifford, especially at 8, his game against LI was pretty forgettable for the most part, bar a couple of pens given away.

He'll get there but I think he needs to work on one position, and if it's 8 then he needs to grow a bit more or work on his scrum cleanup work.

Peoples thoughts on Thomas Young?

I thought he was very good when he came on for Wasps and has been good all season.

Can he play for Wales and should England lock him in to us if possible?

I thought Clifford struggled physically against us a few weeks back Yappy. He's a fantastic talent but is going to have these games now and again, he's still learning the game and is far from the finished article.

I'd take Fraser and Kvesic over Wallace at 7.

I feel there needs to be a bit more grunt in either of those picks, no player there is a short range hard yards specialist, Clifford at 8, Harrison at 7 and Ewers or similar at 6.

Agree Yappy, what I saw of him on Saturday was excellent, if he has played like that all season, The Brand must be a worried man. Doesn't seem to be a penalty machine like Haskell, or is that because he doesn't push the limits like him.

When did Tom Young move to Wasps?

For the Wales game, I wouldn't want to people who are on the plan to Aus to play actually. Playing a test then jetting off for 24 hours on a plane doesn't seem like a great idea.

I think I would play some people who are in the Saxons squad though, so excluding Sarries, Leicester, Wasps and Exeter. I would play:

Auterac
Taylor
Wilson/Hill - depending if Hill goes to Aus.
Attwood
?
Harrison
Fraser
Waldrom
Simpson/Robson - Depending on tour
Cips
Addison
Burrell
James - The Sale chap I think this is his name
Roko/Yarde - Depending on Aus.
Haley

little_badger wrote:For the Wales game, I wouldn't want to people who are on the plan to Aus to play actually. Playing a test then jetting off for 24 hours on a plane doesn't seem like a great idea.

I think I would play some people who are in the Saxons squad though, so excluding Sarries, Leicester, Wasps and Exeter. I would play:

Auterac
Taylor
Wilson/Hill - depending if Hill goes to Aus.
Attwood
? Sean Robinson
Harrison
Fraser
Waldrom
Simpson/Robson - Depending on tour
Cips
Addison
Burrell
James - The Sale chap I think this is his name
Roko/Yarde - Depending on Aus.
Haley

Fixed that for you .....

little_badger wrote:For the Wales game, I wouldn't want to people who are on the plan to Aus to play actually. Playing a test then jetting off for 24 hours on a plane doesn't seem like a great idea.

I think I would play some people who are in the Saxons squad though, so excluding Sarries, Leicester, Wasps and Exeter. I would play:

Auterac
Taylor
Wilson/Hill - depending if Hill goes to Aus.
Attwood
?
Harrison
Fraser
Waldrom
Simpson/Robson - Depending on tour
Cips
Addison
Burrell
James - The Sale chap I think this is his name
Roko/Yarde - Depending on Aus.
Haley

There are ranking points available for this game, if we want to stay top tier for the next RWC draw, we need to start getting ahead of Wales, that means winning this one. If so many players are unavailable it should not be a capped international and therefore no ranking points.

I thought the game was supposed to be a warm up, not much point in playing a "not quite there side" in a warm up.


Oh, I forgot, something has to pay the expenses for the tour, play an extra game of rugby, call it a test and send the players off bruised and battered for a long flight to Australia. Do they still have cattle class on long haul trips, I wouldn't put it past the RFU to send 6'7" players on a 12 hour flight that has 34" seat pitch.

Absolutely no point playing Waldroum in any game.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Absolutely no point playing Waldroum in any game.

If you are using the game as development only then I'd agree but if you want to win then every player should be considered on their merits and Waldrom has been going very well in the AP. Losing to Wales at home is never a nice feeling.

"There are ranking points available for this game, if we want to stay top tier for the next RWC draw, we need to start getting ahead of Wales, that means winning this one. If so many players are unavailable it should not be a capped international and therefore no ranking points."

Absolutely spot on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So taking the table as it is...
Saries
Exeter
Wasps
Leicester

I assume no players from these teams will play in the Wales game. What side would you put out.

The strongest side available would be (based on EJ's selections so far):

Marler, Hartley, Brookes, Lawes, Attwood, Robshaw, Clifford, Morgan, Care, Ford, May, Devoto, Joseph, Watson, Brown.
Taylor, Waller, Hill, Garvey, Kvesic, Dickson, Cipriani, Burrell

Out of that lot, you'd say Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph, Watson and Brown are all established first-teamers and probably don't need the game. Others like Brookes, Care and Ford would probably like the chance to stake a claim for tour spots.

Marler is the odd one, started 3 of the Six Nations games, but also got banned for an incident in the Wales game (not sure if that was covered?) As such, I'd probably err on the side of putting him in the first group and say he's established enough to sit the game out, rather than turning all the pre-game coverage into a rehash of Gypsy-gate.

So possibly a 23 of:

Waller, Taylor, Brookes, Lawes, Attwood, Garvey, Clifford, Morgan, Care, Ford, May, Devoto, Burrell, Rokodoguni, Cipriani
Haywood, Auterac, Hill, Clark, Kvesic, Dickson, Eastmond, Pennell.

Struggling for a third second row, with Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Parling, Slater and Kitchener all tied up by play-off duty, so I've gone with an extra backrow with Garvey and Clark able to cover 2nd row. If the Saxons tour isn't "capped" (as in doesn't tie players to England), I'd have Underhill in this team somewhere, possibly in for Clark or Kvesic.

Struggling for a third second row

Sean Robinson....cracking lock. Lineout king but he can put himself around and is a fantastic defender.

....And a Falcon

I suspect Underhill will be somewhere judging by all the media attention.

Ive still never even seen a clip of him yet.

Robbo, you are assuming Tigers will beat Saints this week?

If they don't, it makes the run in very tight and your side could be considerably changed. You also have forgotten England's bright new hope at 7, Harrison. Clark is injured and unlikely to be ready.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Robbo, you are assuming Tigers will beat Saints this week?

Saints not making the play-offs was an assumption that GF asked us to make. Should they get there (or indeed Quins or Sale) then things change slightly, but the premise still remains that a lot of players will be missing.

Yes that was me saying that....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes that was me saying that....

Oh and I thought we agreed that risking young Sean in a meaningless fixture was rather a huge risk to take with the 2017 Lions captain?

Well yes, but we need to give him a little bit of experience at the next level...just to prove how devastatingly good he is.

But that's all. No need to send him to Australia with the 1sts. He position is already guaranteed.

Lions legend in the making

Similar to Hammersley actually. This generations JPR.....you could pencil him in at Vice captain behind Robinson if you want.

Hammersley will find he has a Kiwi granny and by this time next year will be World Player of the Year.

That's why we may have to give him a run out v Wales aswell...just to nail him to the mast....

LondonTiger wrote:Hammersley will find he has a Kiwi granny and by this time next year will be World Player of the Year.

Slightly more seriously, are we at risk right now of discounting any player who did not feature prominently at U20 level, especially as unless you play U18s you are unlikely to feature for the U20s. I do wonder if a relatively late bloomer such as Ben Smith would ever get a chance in England?

No, every player should be considered.

Don't forget Will Fraser is about 27. But he should definitely be considered if he is fit.

Hammersley went the University route and is learning very well. He may not make international level, like Robinson...but they're are going to be very good premiership players.

Hammersley might be a good addition to the Saxons though...just to see for sure if he can make it or not.

Hes not explosive...he seems to glide and just finds gaps where there aren't any.

How many of Wales' front line players do we think will be made available for this game? I'd like a blend of experience (but not necessarily starters) so we don't lose all shape but with some prospects or people who might tour SA.

I really don't see the point of further knackering our front line players with a game that seems to be shoe horned into an extremely congested calendar.

Im in the group that thinks it should be mostly from the Saxons squad.

I suspect Wales will do the same...as aren't they away to NZ this summer. They hardly wanting to potentially risk losing any keys players for that...over a meaningless game.

Don't really think its a meaningless game. There are world ranking points resting on the outcome. Lose to Wales and we will be in another group of death situation. The more points we can accrue the better so we should definitely not throw this away. In fact it is a very important game in the scheme of things.

You can be in a "group of death" as top seeds, plus the draw is now being held sometime next year.

Fact is a lot of the English players will not be available so we will be playing a more experimental side. Wales are much less likely to have players involved in play-offs, though Scarlets still in the Pro12 mix.

Isn't it a bit of a win-win, lose and we can say 'well doesn't matter it was only a scratch team', win and 'the talent coming through is stepping up'?

I'm really not that fussed about the rankings right now, the draw isn't that close anymore, at least they fixed that. Also if you are going to be the best in the world you need to be able to beat the best teams in a world cup, regardless of whether it's in the final or the pool stages.

Just read Antony Watson may miss the summer tour through suspension.

Just won a Grand Slam with England. the England team starting too look good under EJ and Now Watson may be suspended.

Depends on how long his ban is. Having watched it at full speed I do feel the collision with Ashton actually caused him to stumble in Goode - but panels rarely off much sympathy.

Ah, just seen the charge. They may show sympathy for the red card offence, but will throw th ebook at him for swearing at the officials.

Oh dear swearing at officials is not smart!

yappysnap wrote:Oh dear swearing at officials is not smart!

FFS! What the hell did he say and WTF did he do that for?

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Oh dear swearing at officials is not smart!

FFS!  What the hell did he say and WTF did he do that for?  

Apparently one of the officials was a traveler? Not smart unless he wanted a holiday

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Oh dear swearing at officials is not smart!

FFS!  What the hell did he say and WTF did he do that for?  

"Following the sending off Watson allegedly used offensive, inappropriate and unprofessional language and behaviour towards the fourth official."

Apparently he told Mat Carley it was a f*cking joke (and probably a bit more besides).

- you want to watch that language Doc or else you could miss the summer tour too...

So, if Watson misses out, might we see calls for Strettle and Bendy again

Im pretty sure they will rescind the red card, the citing for that is automatic once its been given but they can overturn or downgrade the original call.
If he grovels wnough and they take in to account that it was a BS decision that riled him then he may get in at the low end. When you add in that he isnt Ashton, Hartley, Marler or Armitage then he could get a fairly short ban enabling him to tour still.

Pretty poor going by Watson if that's true. But I guess he was angry by yet another poor refereeing decision.

I have to say I think the whole standard of refereeing is utterly appalling in our Prem.

I was hoping to see Watson get a bit of a run out at FB during this summer tour.

Hartley got 11 weeks for calling Barnes a ****ing cheat, which is worse than calling a decision a ****ing joke. Hartley also had all his priors.

If Watson gets his nicest suit out the cupboard, brings some ginger hobnobs and says sorry, I can see him getting 4 weeks or so, which would keep him in contention for the tour - although he'll possibly need the Wales game to get up to speed as Bath's season will be finishing much earlier than they would like.

And in fairness the decision was....a f£*king joke!