Ireland 2016/17 season

First topic message reminder :

AI's
Nov 5th New Zealand vs Ireland Chicago
Nov 12th Ireland vs Canada
Nov 19th Ireland Vs New Zealand
Nov 26th Ireland vs Australia


6 Nations
Feb 4th Scotland vs Ireland
Feb 11th Italy vs Ireland
Feb 25th Ireland vs France
Mar 10th Wales vs Ireland
Mar 18th Ireland vs England

Nah who cares what Jones thinks. Yes they won the last game but that was in Twickers. This is his first test in Dublin and on St Particks day and potentially for the outright test match winning streak record. Lets see how they deal with that.

We also didnt have a defense coach the last time we played them but we do now and have improved a lot in this area. We also scored our fair share of tries in November not far off the top tally across four tests.

There is no need to shoehorn young guys into the team. Schmidt has a proven record of introducting players when they are ready for it and as a result they tend to hit the ground running.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Nah who cares what Jones thinks. Yes they won the last game but that was in Twickers. This is his first test in Dublin and on St Particks day and potentially for the outright test match winning streak record. Lets see how they deal with that.

We also didnt have a defense coach the last time we played them but we do now and have improved a lot in this area. We also scored our fair share of tries in November not far off the top tally across four tests.

There is no need to shoehorn young guys into the team. Schmidt has a proven record of introducting players when they are ready for it and as a result they tend to hit the ground running.

Is Farrell allowed stay with Ireland through the 6N?   Or do all Lions coaches now have to move around the Nations with Gatland and just observe from here on in?

ps...  I think we need reshape the backline to move forward.   Too much of our attack is generated through our overworked forwards.  I think New Zealand were caught out in places Eddie's England wouldn't be.

New Zealand have more natural talent and a real ability to adapt on the move if they feel they need to.  They didn't feel the need to against Ireland in the first game and got caught out in the second half when Ireland didn't go back into retreat like they had expected.  
Eddie's England have the usual English solidity in processes but also his instincts for what the opposition will be thinking.  He'll have every number Ireland attempt worked on.   What Ireland don't have - a hungry slicing combination of 13 and 12 keeping defensive lines under stress - they won't suddenly get unless Joe elaborates on what he has now.

Only wales have beaten England more than Ireland. We have defeated them the second most of any side in the world. They will have sweaty palms when they come to Dublin.

Does Farrell get to stay with Ireland now that he's picked for the Lions?

SecretFly wrote:Does Farrell get to stay with Ireland now that he's picked for the Lions?  

Id be interested to know meself

That would be a strange 6N and maybe even one totally influenced by the sides respectively losing Farrell (Ireland - considered a great addition), Borthwick (England - also central in the success strategy of England), and Rob Howley (Wales - their next best bet after their original boss also went to Lions)

Yes, it'd be a curious 6N. But if they are allowed stay with their sides, why couldn't Gatland himself have lingered with Wales?

Farrel will still be with Ireland throughout the 6N's:

42.ie

Munchkin wrote:Farrel will still be with Ireland throughout the 6N's:

42.ie

Great news.

It is, GG. We will want every possible advantage for the England game. Also the away game to Wales since Barnes is ref.

The extra good news is that Peyper doesn't get to ref any of our games

FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Ireland have only lost once when I've been to an Ireland v England game and I've been to about 6 or 7. The won we lost was the one where Jonno sent the president onto the grass.

Glad you dont have tickets as Im hoping for another win.

Haha agreed; I went to a string of losses in twickenham when living in london. The Tom court at TH match was a bad day.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

It isn't what we wanted, but hopefully Ireland can play him a better than they have been. Although Wales have been fairly weak in the AI's, they will improve for the 6N's and will be a challenge.

Munchkin wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

It isn't what we wanted, but hopefully Ireland can play him a better than they have been. Although Wales have been fairly weak in the AI's, they will improve for the 6N's and will be a challenge.

It will be an amazing stat if we average the same 4-5 penalties per match we have all autumn, in the 6 nations and get double/triple that with Barnes...

Don't hurt me but I think Barnes is a decent to good ref. We just need to play him better

wolfball wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

It isn't what we wanted, but hopefully Ireland can play him a better than they have been. Although Wales have been fairly weak in the AI's, they will improve for the 6N's and will be a challenge.

It will be an amazing stat if we average the same 4-5 penalties per match we have all autumn, in the 6 nations and get double/triple that with Barnes...

That's a very good point. If we suddenly drop from being super disciplined to pretty poor, with Barnes as ref, you would have to ask why? It would certainly stand out.

I love Barnes.  
He's probably now coming close to the excellence levels of Nigel.  
He remains calm in a game, can always see the underhand stuff in tricky sides such as New Zealand... and Wales.  He doesn't get influenced by whiny captains (wearing red) and loves to let an intense game roll and give the benefit of the doubt to the more physical side.  He's largely misunderstood by many teams but Irish players have learned to respect him and are constantly heard to tell him during games: "You're a very good ref."

Wonderful ref.

Will that do for a Love-Bombing Campaign starter?

Munchkin wrote:

wolfball wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

It isn't what we wanted, but hopefully Ireland can play him a better than they have been. Although Wales have been fairly weak in the AI's, they will improve for the 6N's and will be a challenge.

It will be an amazing stat if we average the same 4-5 penalties per match we have all autumn, in the 6 nations and get double/triple that with Barnes...

That's a very good point. If we suddenly drop from being super disciplined to pretty poor, with Barnes as ref, you would have to ask why? It would certainly stand out.

Oh don't be so naïve, Munch.  Sure it's perfectly clear.  If we suddenly become an ill-disciplined side when next Barnes refs us then the only serious conclusion is that all other refs are cheats.  The Welsh lads  will certainly agree with him on that score.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Only wales have beaten England more than Ireland. We have defeated them the second most of any side in the world. They will have sweaty palms when they come to Dublin.

It will surely be a cracker but... England have actually won more games against Ireland in Ireland.

Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

In what way?

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

In what way?

 The accusations of dirty play, the accusations criticising the refs performance, the demands that the citing officer cite All blacks post game, all in all a display of petulance and poor sportsmanship.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

This is what he said (from French to English using google translate).

[Joe Schmidt] is perhaps the best on the planet at the moment. Which makes him the favorite for the succession of Steve Hansen at the head of the Blacks in 2019. His son knows but his enthusiasm is measured: "It's crazy, but would I like? I do not know. There's too much pressure. If you do not get the results, the public can be nasty. I remember Pat Lam at the Blues. His family had even been attacked in the press. I do not want that for mine. Ireland is good, everyone is friendly (smiles). "

I found the link. Seems it was Trevor Brennan who sorted him out with Toulouse. Toulouse had no idea that his father was Joe Schmidt.

https://m.midi-olympique.fr/article/27680-fils-joe

wolfball wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:FFS Barnes again. Almost half our matches he refs are Ireland Wales games and he seems to be in charge of nearly all of them. He grew up in wales. He shouldnt be allowed ref those games. He is also a dire ref.

It isn't what we wanted, but hopefully Ireland can play him a better than they have been. Although Wales have been fairly weak in the AI's, they will improve for the 6N's and will be a challenge.

It will be an amazing stat if we average the same 4-5 penalties per match we have all autumn, in the 6 nations and get double/triple that with Barnes...

It is quite rare for Ireland to come out on the right side of the penalty count when he refs. The trends that his referreing with respect to Ireland games are quite dodgy. He shouldnt be allowed ref Wales games either IMO.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

New Zealanders famously cant take criticism when it comes to rugby. It has very little to do with not being nice.

What happened to Henshaw in that game was quite dangerous. Any other team and it would have been a citing.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Sin é wrote:Someone posted a link to an interview in a French newspaper with Tim Schmidt (Joe Schmidt 20 year old son) who is playing for Toulouse Espoirs this season while on an Erasmus year in France. One of the things that would put Joe off going back to NZ to coach the ABs is that it is such a high profile job and the effect that might have on his family. He mentioned the abuse that Pat Lam & his family got. Said the Irish were much nicer! He also said that he himself considers Ireland home now as that is where all his friends and life is and would not consider going back to NZ now.

 the Irish didnt seem very nice after their team got beaten in Dublin.

In what way?

 The accusations of dirty play, the accusations criticising the refs performance, the demands that the citing officer cite All blacks post game, all in all a display of petulance and poor sportsmanship.

Its only in NZ its a crime to criticise the ABs, no one anywhere said the ABs didn't deserve their win, they merely asked that the standards and laws be applied just as is done with everyone else. Given the actions of World Rugby and numerous disciplinary panels since it shows ABs are a protected species

aucklandlaurie wrote:

 The accusations of dirty play, the accusations criticising the refs performance, the demands that the citing officer cite All blacks post game, all in all a display of petulance and poor sportsmanship.

I watched that game and feel that the AB's were overly aggressive and certainly went out to pummel Ireland physically. They did that but they did it by staying slightly on the right side of the law's (some hits were debatable).

The game left a bad taste in my mouth, not because Ireland lost but because I saw the AB's deploy a tactic they did not need too.

Before you go off on one, I said exactly the same against the French some time back when they clearly went into the game trying to take the Irish players out.

Its not tactics I like to see on a rugby field.

Anyways, moving on.

How do people feel about the Irish fullback position? Kearney has been a great servant but I do feel his time is coming to an end, other options are :

Payne, excellent at 15 and brings other into the game superbly but he is injury prone and getting on a bit so not really the future for me.

Zebo, excellent in counter attack, defence and has a very strong kick but I see him far more of a winger so hope they stop trying to convert him into a 15.

TOH, brilliant prospect but is it too early for him? I think he is the best option to replace Kearney but still think he needs a bit more experience.

eirebilly wrote:Anyways, moving on.

How do people feel about the Irish fullback position? Kearney has been a great servant but I do feel his time is coming to an end, other options are :

Payne, excellent at 15 and brings other into the game superbly but he is injury prone and getting on a bit so not really the future for me.

Zebo, excellent in counter attack, defence and has a very strong kick but I see him far more of a winger so hope they stop trying to convert him into a 15.

TOH, brilliant prospect but is it too early for him? I think he is the best option to replace Kearney but still think he needs a bit more experience.

Think you're pretty harsh on Payne saying hes injury prone hes been more unlucky than anything though hes played on with a broken rib and lacerated kidney in the AIs and did the same with a bad hamstring tear in the 6Ns last year

I think Ludik will come into the picture in the AIs this year, he seems like a Joe type player to me. Hes versatile and reliable and does a lot of the small unseen things well, plus he always seems to makes yards in contact and is a solid defender

eirebilly wrote:Anyways, moving on.

How do people feel about the Irish fullback position? Kearney has been a great servant but I do feel his time is coming to an end, other options are :

Payne, excellent at 15 and brings other into the game superbly but he is injury prone and getting on a bit so not really the future for me.

Zebo, excellent in counter attack, defence and has a very strong kick but I see him far more of a winger so hope they stop trying to convert him into a 15.

TOH, brilliant prospect but is it too early for him? I think he is the best option to replace Kearney but still think he needs a bit more experience.

Pretty much summed it up as the 4 options.

Kearney showed enough in the Autumn that he's a different player under Joe and not done yet. I see him playing less and less for Leinster but still starting the big games when fit.

Joe seems to prefer Zebo at 11 - he's arguably the form Irish back this season, its just a matter of were he plays.

I also get the Joe see Payne as too important in midfield so don't see that changing unless there is an injury crisis at 15.

I like TOH but don't think Joe is convinced yet but see him getting more caps in the summer.

I'd guess Conway is next in the pecking order but will be interesting to see what happens when Ludik qualifies.

Marty,

I am not having a dig at Payne or questioning his commitment, I am saying that he is not the youngest and he is injury prone (am I wrong in that he has had many injuries and missed many games for Ireland due to these injuries?). To me he is the best option for Ireland at 15 but I do not see him as the future so believe that TOH should possibly be given the position for the 6N.

Henshaw and Ringrose seem to be the leading pair for 12 and 13 with McClosky, Marshall and Olding providing good cover.

With POM back to playing some excellent rugby, where does that leave him? I would have said that he should come into the side and captain but Best has done an amazing job and it would be harsh for that to happen. I also feel that Stander is the better 6 so would get the nod. Unless POM goes to 6 and CJ to 8 but that would mean leaving out Heaslip which would be exceedingly harsh on Heaslip as he has been in amazing form and never lets Ireland down. I would say based on that, POM would only make the bench at best.

Happy days to be having such strength in depth with Ireland

rodders,

I have never seen Payne as a centre myself, he just does not have the same influence he has from 15 for me and there are more natural centres available as stated in post above.

I would have him working very hard with TOH in the squad to help develop him into an international 15. Conway is very good also but I do think TOH is better.

eirebilly wrote:Marty,

I am not having a dig at Payne or questioning his commitment, I am saying that he is not the youngest and he is injury prone (am I wrong in that he has had many injuries and missed many games for Ireland due to these injuries?). To me he is the best option for Ireland at 15 but I do not see him as the future so believe that TOH should possibly be given the position for the 6N.

billy never meant to imply you were having a dig, my point is his current injury is freakish more than anything and he broke a foot before too so its not like its the same or similar injuries so not necessarily prone just unlucky

eirebilly wrote:
Henshaw and Ringrose seem to be the leading pair for 12 and 13 with McClosky, Marshall and Olding providing good cover.

With POM back to playing some excellent rugby, where does that leave him? I would have said that he should come into the side and captain but Best has done an amazing job and it would be harsh for that to happen. I also feel that Stander is the better 6 so would get the nod. Unless POM goes to 6 and CJ to 8 but that would mean leaving out Heaslip which would be exceedingly harsh on Heaslip as he has been in amazing form and never lets Ireland down. I would say based on that, POM would only make the bench at best.

Don't think so billy - Joe has made it pretty clear that Payne is first choice 13 and wasn't entirely happy with Ringrose defense in the Autumn.

McCloskey he doesn't seem to rate and Marshall has fallen out of favor a bit - Olding just needs to get playing for Ulster and get his career back on track.

O'Mahoney looks to be 5th choice back row now. With Ruddock coming back to fitness and the incredible form of Heaslip, Stander, VDF and O'Brien he'll do well just to make the squad. O'Donnell, Henry and Conan are in good form too, plus Henderson covering 6, so there is lots of competition in the back row which is great.

Second row is not looking as healthy with Dillane out though.

I know full well that Schmidt see's Payne as a 13 for Ireland rodders but I simply do not share that opinion with him. I was not aware that he was unhappy with Ringrose's defence during the AI's? Didn't think it was too bad myself and in attack, I thought he was very lively.

I have no idea what Schmidt has against the Ulster centres, to me they are all excellent when fit and on form.

rodders wrote:

O'Mahoney looks to be 5th choice back row now. With Ruddock coming back to fitness and the incredible form of Heaslip, Stander, VDF and O'Brien he'll do well just to make the squad. O'Donnell, Henry and Conan are in good form too, plus Henderson covering 6, so there is lots of competition in the back row which is great.

Second row is not looking as healthy with Dillane out though.

Given that this years 6N looks like it could be more competitive than it has been in years, would anyone argue with an element of rotation in players to suit slightly differing game plans during the tournament?

The options in back row alone offer a real opportunity to do that and keep guys fresh especially given the attritional nature of the tournament at times

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

O'Mahoney looks to be 5th choice back row now. With Ruddock coming back to fitness and the incredible form of Heaslip, Stander, VDF and O'Brien he'll do well just to make the squad. O'Donnell, Henry and Conan are in good form too, plus Henderson covering 6, so there is lots of competition in the back row which is great.

Second row is not looking as healthy with Dillane out though.

Given that this years 6N looks like it could be more competitive than it has been in years, would anyone argue with an element of rotation in players to suit slightly differing game plans during the tournament?

The options in back row alone offer a real opportunity to do that and keep guys fresh especially given the attritional nature of the tournament at times

Absolutely for rotation. I believe it would make Ireland very strong. Going to need all hands on deck if Ireland are to beat England to the 6N.

rodders wrote:

Don't think so billy - Joe has made it pretty clear that Payne is first choice 13 and wasn't entirely happy with Ringrose defense in the Autumn.

McCloskey he doesn't seem to rate and Marshall has fallen out of favor a bit - Olding just needs to get playing for Ulster and get his career back on track.

O'Mahoney looks to be 5th choice back row now. With Ruddock coming back to fitness and the incredible form of Heaslip, Stander, VDF and O'Brien he'll do well just to make the squad. O'Donnell, Henry and Conan are in good form too, plus Henderson covering 6, so there is lots of competition in the back row which is great.

Second row is not looking as healthy with Dillane out though.

We are in a great place if POM is 5th choice back row.

In my opinion we crashed out of the world cup because we lost the breakdown battle.

This was mainly down to losing two key back row players and POC who was a key breakdown operator. I think that game would have gone differently with the depth we have now. We probably wouldnt have had to throw in a rusty Murphy and Henry in the back row and I reckon that would have made a big difference.

Oops forgot about Jordi Murphy, make that 6th choice ...

Steady on there rodders ya cheeky begger

Ireland are in a very healthy position right now and I hope they will improve, just need rid of Schmidt for a less Leinster biased one


Waiting for Guns

We do have serious depth in many positions where we were weak just a couple of seasons ago. Even at centre and in the back row we were looking weak, shifting the likes of Rhys Ruddock to 7.

eirebilly wrote:Steady on there rodders ya cheeky begger

Ireland are in a very healthy position right now and I hope they will improve, just need rid of Schmidt for a less Leinster biased one


Waiting for Guns

I'm waiting for Munster to split from Ireland so they can have their own rugby team. They could select someone from all the local parishes, everyones happy and the Ireland team wouldn't be any weaker for it.

I guess the thing I like about 'depth' is not so much the basic that we can supposedly replace players readily with virtual like-for like alternatives; I actually like that the reality of like-for-like existing in the first place forces chosen starters to up their performances in each contest.  
They know they have to keep the intensity up now or others will step in.  

But also, the truest advantage of having 'depth' is that it turns up for training camps.  When you get to, and are forced to, train as hard behind the scenes as you'd play in a game - when you are tested through the week by training companions as sharp as yourself, then coaches have finally the training tools to notch by notch up the playbook and prepare a side that truly has the ability to be competitive.  
It's no secret that the ABs are and stay great because of the excellence of the players that inhabit those training camps.  
You can't mimic the intensity or smartness of a top-ranked opponent side at International level unless you have a training squad that has the ability to mimic the conditions.  Ireland are (fingers crossed) getting there in having the numbers of players available to mimic those conditions.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Steady on there rodders ya cheeky begger

Ireland are in a very healthy position right now and I hope they will improve, just need rid of Schmidt for a less Leinster biased one


Waiting for Guns

I'm waiting for Munster to split from Ireland so they can have their own rugby team. They could select someone from all the local parishes, everyones happy and the Ireland team wouldn't be any weaker for it.

Good idea - then we could have a 4 yearly touring side to compete with the Lions - call it The Elks - that would comprise of Irish International and Munster International players. The Munster Nation could have the token Doc and one bencher.....

I've been reading a lot about that sort of atmosphere in the Leinster training camps, especially surrounding the rivalry between young players vying for the same positions, such as Ringrose and O'Loughlin or Leavy and van der Flier. Not to mention the experienced players ahead of these guys. Even look at Jack Conan and the pressure he will be mounting on Heaslip.

Extend that to Ireland as a whole and we are in a great position.

SecretFly wrote:

Good idea - then we could have a 4 yearly touring side to compete with the Lions - call it The Elks - that would comprise of Irish International and Munster International players.  The Munster Nation could have the token Doc and one bencher.....

I like your style brother

Rory O'Loughlin looks like he will feature for Ireland sometime this year. He'll probably go on the Japan tour. He looks a class player and can play wing or center comfortably.

We seem to have some very talented young lads coming through. The future is looking good. And some serious speed too

Speed?  Us?  Ireland?

Oh me heart is all palpitating at the prospect of Ireland joining the ranks of habitual speedsters.