Ireland 2016/17 season

First topic message reminder :

AI's
Nov 5th New Zealand vs Ireland Chicago
Nov 12th Ireland vs Canada
Nov 19th Ireland Vs New Zealand
Nov 26th Ireland vs Australia


6 Nations
Feb 4th Scotland vs Ireland
Feb 11th Italy vs Ireland
Feb 25th Ireland vs France
Mar 10th Wales vs Ireland
Mar 18th Ireland vs England

Hard to say what the front row will look like. Ross will be 39 and gone, Best will be 37 and gone. Strauss will likely be retired also. Don't think Cronin will age well, he's a hooker who relies on his pace to cover up for a rake of other deficiencies. At the minute doubt Cian Healy will ever make it fully back even in 2016 never mind 2019. There are now several very good props who will be late twenties, early thirties by the time the next RWC rolls around but looks like we will be rather patchy at hooker. We need to get Niall Annett back to Ulster when Best retires. He still has test potential.

Jack McGrath- First choice, 30 by the next RWC
James Cronin- 28 by the next RWC
Dave Kilcoyne- 29 by the next RWC

Rob Herring- First choice, 29 by the next RWC
Sean Cronin- 33 by the next RWC
Niall Annett- 28 by the next RWC
Niall Scannell- 27 by the next RWC

Tadhg Furlong- First choice, 26 by the next RWC
John Ryan- 31 by the next RWC
Finlay Bealham- 27 by the next RWC

Marty Moore could and should be in the reckoning if he returns to Ireland before then.

For RWC 2019 Andrew Porter loosehead for Leinster will be in the mix. He is a bit of a physical freak for his age. Dooley isn't bad either.

I'm sure there'll be more tightheads come on the scene. When Ireland got to the U20 final in the summer, Ben Betts was 3rd choice tightheads.


Hooker is hard to say. They tend to take a while to mature. Adam McBurney looked good for the U20s but will he have the physicality for top level rugby. Tracey looks good for Leinster but still only 3rd choice. We can produce a plethora of backrow players but struggle with hookers.


I'm not too confident about 9s though I am hopeful that a few decent ones will emerge.

Healy looks to be getting back to his best,he's been excellent in the loose so far this season and his scrummaging is improving as he gets more games.

profitius wrote:For RWC 2019 Andrew Porter loosehead for Leinster will be in the mix. He is a bit of a physical freak for his age. Dooley isn't bad either.

I'm sure there'll be more tightheads come on the scene. When Ireland got to the U20 final in the summer, Ben Betts was 3rd choice tightheads.


Hooker is hard to say. They tend to take a while to mature. Adam McBurney looked good for the U20s but will he have the physicality for top level rugby. Tracey looks good for Leinster but still only 3rd choice. We can produce a plethora of backrow players but struggle with hookers.


I'm not too confident about 9s though I am hopeful that a few decent ones will emerge.

Saw Porter come off the bench for Leinster in the first home game of the pro12 to replace Healy. Other than the hairdye for McQuilkan I wouldn't notice a discernable difference in their size, scrummaging or work around the field. At the time I was using it was an example of how Healy isn't what he was, but credit where it's due that Porter lad is a beast for his age.

Out of all the Leinster hookers, I prefer to see Tracey start over Strauss and Cronin. Cronin is still best of the bench because he has a centres pace during an open game. That will be the first to go. I'm not sure Tracey is Test quality though, time will tell. Situation with Best, Strauss and Cronin is that the three of them will chew up all Test minutes between them meaning any player coming in after them will get no experience until they are thrown in the deep end.

Well Nathan White has officially retired due to concussions. Very sad whenever anyone is forced to retire due to injury but the amount that are from concussion lately is incredibly worrying.


https://twitter.com/RTErugby/status/781069991047270400

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

profitius wrote:For RWC 2019 Andrew Porter loosehead for Leinster will be in the mix. He is a bit of a physical freak for his age. Dooley isn't bad either.

I'm sure there'll be more tightheads come on the scene. When Ireland got to the U20 final in the summer, Ben Betts was 3rd choice tightheads.


Hooker is hard to say. They tend to take a while to mature. Adam McBurney looked good for the U20s but will he have the physicality for top level rugby. Tracey looks good for Leinster but still only 3rd choice. We can produce a plethora of backrow players but struggle with hookers.


I'm not too confident about 9s though I am hopeful that a few decent ones will emerge.

Saw Porter come off the bench for Leinster in the first home game of the pro12 to replace Healy.  Other than the hairdye for McQuilkan I wouldn't notice a discernable difference in their size, scrummaging or work around the field. At the time I was using it was an example of how Healy isn't what he was, but credit where it's due that Porter lad is a beast for his age.

Out of all the Leinster hookers, I prefer to see Tracey start over Strauss and Cronin.  Cronin is still best of the bench because he has a centres pace during an open game.  That will be the first to go. I'm not sure Tracey is Test quality though, time will tell.  Situation with Best, Strauss and Cronin is that the three of them will chew up all Test minutes between them meaning any player coming in after them will get no experience until they are thrown in the deep end.

With the hookers, Best remains first choice as captain. But after this season, I think Schmidt needs to pick a captain who will continue into RWC '19. One or two new hookers have to be developed at the expense of either Strauss or Cronin - probably Strauss. The Japan tour will be helpful in identifying those.

Has Marmion got the best chance of development at Connacht or does he need to be moved to another province like Ulster?

Talk in the Indo today that Dillane (& Aki) are Munster targets. Can see Dillane moving home, I can't see Aki moving to another Province.

Good news is that Peter O'Mahony will be back this weekend after being out for a year. I'd imagine if he can pick up from where he left off that he will be Ireland captain next season (though the way he plays, he will need a very able Assistant Captain to fill in for when he is injured!)

I can't understand why Marmion hasn't moved to Ulster to develop a partnership with Paddy Jackson. He is signed up with Connacht until 2018.

Sin é wrote:Talk in the Indo today that Dillane (& Aki) are Munster targets. Can see Dillane moving home, I can't see Aki moving to another Province.

Good news is that Peter O'Mahony will be back this weekend after being out for a year. I'd imagine if he can pick up from where he left off that he will be Ireland captain next season (though the way  he plays, he will need a very able Assistant Captain to fill in for when he is injured!)

I can't understand why Marmion hasn't moved to Ulster to develop a partnership with Paddy Jackson. He is signed up with Connacht until 2018.

PoM would be a good candidate but he needs to be 1st choice.I don't see Heaslip being dropped on current form and the fact that he's vice captain so Stander and PoM will be a battle for the 6 shirt.They are great to have as a horses for courses choice.When Heaslip goes I think PoM will be the next captain assuming he returns to his previous level and some freak of a young lad doesn't come through in the meantime.

CJ plays No. 8 for Munster, so he isn't competing against POM at 6. CJ will be competing against Heaslip for the No. 8 jersey. I can see CJ starting ahead of Heaslip if SOB isn't fit as Ireland will need a decent ball carrier which Heaslip doesn't do.

Sin é wrote:CJ plays No. 8 for Munster, so he isn't competing against POM at 6. CJ will be competing against Heaslip for the No. 8 jersey. I can see CJ starting ahead of Heaslip if SOB isn't fit as Ireland will need a decent ball carrier which Heaslip doesn't do.

That isn't how it works Sin,he'll play where Schmidt puts him and it's pretty obvious that Heaslip is a hugely important player to Ireland especially since he's really come into a great run of form this last year.

As to your last line that's just Munsterfans propaganda,Heaslip is an excellent ball carrier in tight and loose.PoM is a good ball carrier in the loose but doesn't really get involved in the tight for Ireland.He is however an excellent lineout operator,top class at the breakdown and a great leader.

I'm looking at their attributes and the balance in the backrow. The POM/SOB/Heaslip backrow works well. A POM/Van den Flier/Heaslip backrow not so well. I'd have POM/JdeF/CJ in that instance. CJ would be more in the style of Billy Vunipola and Heaslip more the Kieran Read type No. 8. Anyway I think you need at least one big ball carrier like SOB, Armitage, Vunipola, CJ in your backrow nowadays.

Yeah PoM/Stander/van der Flier does look like a nice balance but I don't see Schmidt dropping Heaslip from the 23 and I don't see him having a specialist 8 on the bench.He wants his subs to know all the roles and just slot in where needed.PoM,SoB or Stander fit the impact sub role much better than Heaslip.

The other thing to mention is that we're making a pretty big assumption that PoM will come back the same player as before.We've seen with Cian Healy how hard it can be to recover form after a long layoff,he's only looking like the player of old this year after getting a bad injury.PoM might take some time to recover that form.

Sin é wrote:I'm looking at their attributes and the balance in the backrow. The POM/SOB/Heaslip backrow works well. A POM/Van den Flier/Heaslip backrow not so well. I'd have POM/JdeF/CJ in that instance. CJ would be more in the style of Billy Vunipola and Heaslip more the Kieran Read type No. 8. Anyway I think you need at least one big ball carrier like SOB, Armitage, Vunipola, CJ in your backrow nowadays.

The problem is you are presuming POM is auto back in. CJ/Van/Heaslip is our most likely starting backrow as of right now, with POM on bench. POM needs to show he is still the player he was before injury, we have too many examples of players declining after a long injury absence to think POM can parachute straight in, especially when all the incumbents are playing so well.

wolfball wrote:

Sin é wrote:I'm looking at their attributes and the balance in the backrow. The POM/SOB/Heaslip backrow works well. A POM/Van den Flier/Heaslip backrow not so well. I'd have POM/JdeF/CJ in that instance. CJ would be more in the style of Billy Vunipola and Heaslip more the Kieran Read type No. 8. Anyway I think you need at least one big ball carrier like SOB, Armitage, Vunipola, CJ in your backrow nowadays.

The problem is you are presuming POM is auto back in. CJ/Van/Heaslip is our most likely starting backrow as of right now, with POM on bench. POM needs to show he is still the player he was before injury, we have too many examples of players declining after a long injury absence to think POM can parachute straight in, especially when all the incumbents are playing so well.

I'm presuming nothing. This is what I posted a few up.

I'd imagine if he [POM] can pick up from where he left off that he will be Ireland captain next season (though the way he plays, he will need a very able Assistant Captain to fill in for when he is injured!).

 

The way POM is being minded at the moment suggests to me that the IRFU are being extra cautious with minding him and want him to have a long international future. No backrow can touch POM for lineout steals for example, which none of our present locks/backrowers are anyway useful at (Toner makes it awkward, but heavy to get up quickly, whereas POM is super at getting up quickly and reading the lineout).

By the way, CJ is gunning for the Lions now, so I'd expect a big season for him as well.

POM will start every time. End of.

Think Stander, Van Der Flier and Heaslip.

O'Mahony is definitely good enough to start, but let him get some game time under his belt- he's surely going to be a bit rusty after a longish injury lay-off.

I know it's a few weeks off, but out of curiosity who would people like to see play against Canada?

Will be important to give Jackson at least one game and a chance to put some serious pressure on Sexton- think we should look at Marmion and Jackson together, thats our future partnership. Would love to see Van Der Flier involved. Hopefully Olding will be recovered to play 12. Would like to see John Ryan at tight head.

Would like to see Stander at 8. Would love to see Olding at 12 and Henshaw at 13 but that would be my first choice anyway so maybe give Ringrose a go. I'll admit I haven't seen enough of him but would just like to see what he can do. To be honest I'd like to see Jackson start the Canada match and the Australia game too.

Notch wrote:Will be important to give Jackson at least one game and a chance to put some serious pressure on Sexton- think we should look at Marmion and Jackson together, thats our future partnership. Would love to see Van Der Flier involved. Hopefully Olding will be recovered to play 12. Would like to see John Ryan at tight head.

JvdF will claim the 7 shirt this year, I believe. I think that he is the sort of player that Schmidt really likes - hard working, very effective in the ruck, always in support. I think that the real challenge for JvdF will be if O'Brien comes back to the same form as before or if Leavy can dethrone him.

I also think that if Olding can stay fit he will hold the 12 shirt, with his main competition coming from Marshall who had a very good tour to SA. Unless Henshaw is still considered there (sigh).

Has Olding ever played alongside Sexton?

Maine man wrote:Would like to see Stander at 8. Would love to see Olding at 12 and Henshaw at 13 but that would be my first choice anyway so maybe give Ringrose a go. I'll admit I haven't seen enough of him but would just like to see what he can do. To be honest I'd like to see Jackson start the Canada match and the Australia game too.

I think that the most interesting thing to note will be whoever plays at 13 - it probably has to be Jared Payne. I believe that Leinster are planning to play Henshaw and Ringrose together, so if anyone is going to start at 13 between those two, it may be Ringrose. At this stage, Ringrose may actually have the same experience and exposure at 13 as Henshaw? That would be an interesting statistic to dig up.

I still want to see Jackson, Olding and Ringrose play together in the not too distant future.

Okay, without putting the quote into google, who said this?

"On the training pitch the following morning, I was still thinking about Alastair's few words and getting more and more p****d off. I decided what I was going to do when the session was over: find Alastair and knock him out."

SecretFly wrote:Okay, without putting the quote into google, who said this?

"On the training pitch the following morning, I was still thinking about Alastair's few words and getting more and more p****d off. I decided what I was going to do when the session was over: find Alastair and knock him out."

When I looked it up, who it was made a certain amount of sense. Love that google found it with only the last 5 words of the quote, when presumably half of the UK would also express similar sentiments...

Sounds like POC spent most of his time in his room smoking

I loved it. Now there was a man going to go down fast had it happened. Not that I'm condoning the act.... but the dream was nice.

I have a sneaking regard for auld spin-doc himself, Alastair, but there is a time and place for a political spin-doctor and that wasn't it.

Carbery, Sweetnam and Rory Scannell were called up to the Ireland training squad.

profitius wrote:Carbery, Sweetnam and Rory Scannell were called up to the Ireland training squad.

So was Niyi!

So I'm guessing the squad will be named soon and will be something like:


J McGrath, Healy, Kilcoyne, Ross, Furlong, Bealham
Best, Herring, Cronin
Toner, Henderson, Dillane, ANother
Heaslip, Stander, POM, VDF, SOB, ANother

Sexton, Jackson, Carbery
Murray, Marmion, ANother
Henshaw, Olding, L Marshall, ANother
D Kearney, Payne, Trimble, Zebo, ANother


I don't know if I'm leaving out anyone obvious. Maybe Rob Kearney, Ruddock, TOD, Bowe, McCloskey, Donn Ryan etc but it depends how conservative Schmidt is with the team.

Will Earls be back,he's the only obvious one I can see otherwise.

Ringrose might get into the wider squad,McGrath will probably be 3rd SH but I'd leave SoB out for the series and I'd let PoM stay with Munster until the team comes back from Chicago,match fitness is hard to come by and throwing them in against N.Z. would be very risky imo.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Will Earls be back,he's the only obvious one I can see otherwise.

Ringrose might get into the wider squad,McGrath will probably be 3rd SH but I'd leave SoB out for the series and I'd let PoM stay with Munster until the team comes back from Chicago,match fitness is hard to come by and throwing them in against N.Z. would be very risky imo.

I forgot about Earls but its a close call. He has a central contract so will probably be in the squad but hopefully its as a winger only.


I'd like to see Ringrose included and its probably time for him now. He can cover wing too so would be a good sub to have. I don't rate McGrath too much because his passing skills are poor. Caolin Blade could be a bolter.


As for SOB and POM, I'm not sure. Going forward though I think they should use SOB more as an impact sub. Unleash him on tiring defenders. 2 other potential stars of the future for me are Leavy and Connachts SOB. Might be a bit too early for them.

Yeah imo McGrath gets in because he's starting SH for his province,not really an are of strength for us but we need another body and he has the highest level experience and he was in the wider squad called up last month.

Yeah SoB shouldn't get near the squad until he has a body of work for Leinster to back up that shows he can get back to his best and stay fit.Leavy and SoBv2 will both add great depth going forward but as you say it's probably a bit soon in an area where we're pretty stacked right now.

profitius wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Will Earls be back,he's the only obvious one I can see otherwise.

Ringrose might get into the wider squad,McGrath will probably be 3rd SH but I'd leave SoB out for the series and I'd let PoM stay with Munster until the team comes back from Chicago,match fitness is hard to come by and throwing them in against N.Z. would be very risky imo.

I forgot about Earls but its a close call. He has a central contract so will probably be in the squad but hopefully its as a winger only.


I'd like to see Ringrose included and its probably time for him now. He can cover wing too so would be a good sub to have. I don't rate McGrath too much because his passing skills are poor. Caolin Blade could be a bolter.


As for SOB and POM, I'm not sure. Going forward though I think they should use SOB more as an impact sub. Unleash him on tiring defenders. 2 other potential stars of the future for me are Leavy and Connachts SOB. Might be a bit too early for them.

Would you take Leavy/SOB2 ahead of JOD? All three will be Irish internationals within the next few seasons, I'm convinced of that.

I'm not sure about JOD, Rory. He burst onto the scene a few years ago but since then hasn't really stood out. I do get the impression we have yet to see what he can do. A run of games at 8 would be nice. He was included in a few squads already so he is on Schmidt's radar.

Schmidt signs on until 2019.


Does anyone know when the squad is being announced?

profitius wrote:Schmidt signs on until 2019.


Does anyone know when the squad is being announced?

Is that old news now, Prof or do you mean that he actually did the physical pen on paper bit today?

profitius wrote:Schmidt signs on until 2019.


Does anyone know when the squad is being announced?

Once Joe knows exactly how many ex-pat kiwis and saffers he needs to replace any injured Leinster players.

Well you wouldn't be dreaming of any Ulstermen these days, Lord be good to them an' all ......

..okay...so maybe Paddy.

...and Ruan.

SecretFly wrote:

profitius wrote:Schmidt signs on until 2019.


Does anyone know when the squad is being announced?

Is that old news now, Prof or do you mean that he actually did the physical pen on paper bit today?

Just officially announced but it was the worst kept secret in rugby.

When is the ireland squad being announced? THAT test is less than 2 weeks away.

I think the squad gets announced this afternoon.

Anyone know what the TV coverage is for the AIs?

1st game is on Eir ,I have no idea how widespread that station is so dodgy streaming for me.

The rest are on RTE and Sky Sports.

Outside of the Internationals, that Munster v New Zealand Maoris game should be a real ripper.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Outside of the Internationals, that Munster v New Zealand Maoris game should be a real ripper.

My sister is getting to that one - I'll be at the Chicago match. I am a pretty optimistic irish fan at the worst of times but I am not going to this match with alot of confidence. The only times we ever get close to beating NZ are by rattling them and we rattled them recently enough that they will be prepared for that.

Ireland Squad (v New Zealand, Soldier Field, Chicago, Saturday November 5th)

Finlay Bealham (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) captain
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster)*
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Tadgh Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Craig Gilroy (Ulster)
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) vice captain
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster)
Billy Holland (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Luke Marshall (Ulster)
Jack McGrath (St Marys/Leinster)
Luke McGrath (UCD/Leinster)*
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)*
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
CJ Stander (Munster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
James Tracy (UCD/Leinster)*
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

*denotes uncapped player

J Ryan, Bealham, Healy, J McGrath, Furlong
Tracy, Best, Cronin
Don Ryan, Toner, Holland, Henderson, Dillane
VDF, POM, SOB, Heaslip, Stander, J Murphy

Sexton, Jackson, Carbery
L McGrath, Marmion, Murray
Marshall, Henshaw, Ringrose, Payne
Zebo, Trimble, Gilroy, Earls, R Kearney


6 uncapped players but deserves to be in there.

Rob Kearney is somehow included so I presume Payne is a center.
Ross not included. Olding also misses out.

Can't believe he left out Bundi-aki and Piatau.

Missing out are Ross, Ruddock, Olding, Roux, McCloskey*, Kilcoyne, Bowe, O'Halloran, O'Donnell, Henry*, Reidy, Dave Kearney*,
Madigan and Marty Moore missing as well.

*Injured.


I'm happy enough with the squad overall. I would have liked to see O'Halloran in there instead of Kearney and Olding in there with Payne moving to fullback.

Ross being dropped is a big call,Schmidt is definitely building towards the next world cup.We've already seen the gameplan changing and now the squad is really starting to move on,I hope Payne isn't there as a centre unless there's an injury but that's a pretty positive squad.

Ross out? Now there's a line in the sand moment for the career of an old trooper. The end is nigh.