Ireland 2016/17 season

First topic message reminder :

AI's
Nov 5th New Zealand vs Ireland Chicago
Nov 12th Ireland vs Canada
Nov 19th Ireland Vs New Zealand
Nov 26th Ireland vs Australia


6 Nations
Feb 4th Scotland vs Ireland
Feb 11th Italy vs Ireland
Feb 25th Ireland vs France
Mar 10th Wales vs Ireland
Mar 18th Ireland vs England

Okay, but why is there a senior player in the squad who doesn't understand the laws around the maul area? Surely the coaching team should have this sort of thing drilled into the players so that they don't concede silly penalties? The fans know about it for goodness sake. Was there one person who understood the game that disagreed with Wayne Barnes? Except for Guns, I guess.

It isn't the fact that Henshaw did it - it's the fact that he claims to not have known the rules. The coaches can't be held responsible for his own individual brain fart, but according to Henshaw he didn't understand the rules.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Agree with those points, Munchkin, but individual brain-farts like Henshaw's are not what a coach can legislate for. Think the call-up of McFadden to be an even more stubborn, provocative, plain wrong decision by Joe than the ones you outline. He's generally been a good strategist and a ho-hum tactician but some of the more fundamental personnel choices are beginning to concern me.

Yes, some individual errors cost us, but Schmidt has to take responsibility as well.

Schmidt's selections are poor, and his use of the bench is woeful. He has his favorites, but I do think he's paralysed by fear due to an irrational lack of trust in those players outside his circle. Even to the extent of keeping poorly performing or clearly injured players on the field. It's either that or an incredibly strong favoritism that defies logic.

There is a defensible point of view that backs don't typically NEED to understand most laws as they apply to mauls beyond what happens if they are either the ball carrier caught in one or the tackler causing one.

I've noticed this tendency for players with feck all to do with certain areas of the pitch to spend half their lives camped there. If we could just persuade Heaslip to leave our backs the hell alone and remind Henshaw that a driving maul that is about to earn a try is bog all to do with him, we should be OK.

I know that it would be nice for players to understand every law in the book but it's never going to happen. Sportsmen so rarely do, in my experience. I'm not absolving Schmidt of all blame for the loss, you understand, but in the Henshaw case, I can't put the responsibility on anyone but the player himself.

So one man who should not have been anywhere near the squad Bowe is replaced by another player who also should be no where the squad McFadden

Pathetic

Sorry, but that's too hard to swallow Captain.

These are professional players who don't read their own handbook? There are games to be won and lost through the knowledge of the Laws so why would a team not be testing their players in something that can be so easily controlled? Wasn't it POC who said of Munster that they might not be the best at many things but they would be the best at those things they could control? Especially Henshaw who is by far the most likely back to be added to a card-depleted pack.

McFadden... Jesus Christos.

In other news, Joe sure does love him some slagging of young Ulster backs in press conferences, doesn't he? Getting a bit undignified at this stage.

geoff999rugby wrote:So one man who should not have been anywhere near the squad Bowe is replaced by another player who also should be no where the squad McFadden

Pathetic

There is a certain irony in the situation as once again I am reminded of the France Ireland game of 2006. That was the game that the fledgling Bowe was hung out to dry by Eddie O'Sullivan for a slip, when O'Gara had a total shocker and gifted France two tries himself and was culpable in two more. Eddie had promised ROG that he wouldn't be subbed as that would undermine Ronan's confidence so Humphreys remained on the pine for the full 80.
What reminded me of that game was that when Horan cried off, Eddie chose to recall Reggie Corrigan out of retirement rather than start the next cab on the rank.
so that story had:
an Ulster scapegoat
an untouchable player above criticism
a former warhorse brought back for one last battle
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Look, it's simple.  Our gameplan has beaten the bejaysus out of our players over the weeks they've being playing this 6N.  Our gameplan is unmerciful and we have to play it harder and harder to gain any ground against all these improving sides.  As they improve and find trickier ways of bypassing our huff and puff tactics, all we can do to counter their creativity, power, pace with ball in hand, accurate passing etc etc, is heavier duty huff and puff.  

And our team has a limit playing this game and they've pretty much reached it.  

We run out of puff in WCs, we run out of puff in 6N.  We're eternally regretting that we didn't do better, that we didn't win enough 6N championships even though we've come so close so many times.  But we keep repeating the same mistake over and over.  And now that stubborn streak has leaked into the mind of a Kiwi coach of all things!   I just can't fathom how he of all people wants to play this stuff he coaches at the moment (and I don't care whether it's winning or losing. I say the same regardless of outcome)  

I wish some strong senior players would approach him and say they want a new brand, and I'd like them to remind him that he once coached the most elusive, quick-witted, heads-up, puzzle-solver, fast handed, scintillating running team in European club rugby.  That wasn't a fantasy Joe.  That was you.  

Where the hell has this blunt, rusty knife, zig-zag stuff come from?  Why have you changed your philosophy so much?  Other teams at top International level play it like Leinster played it.  It's not undoable, unworkable, un-sustainable, unrealistic.  We have the players to at least attempt it every bit as much as Wales has or Scotland has.  Yet we persist with this 'safe' huff and puff stuff that always knocks the life and enthusiasm out of our team before the end of all competitions.  Give our players a gameplan/style they can fall in love with again, something that can get the adrenaline flowing through them to take their tired limbs easier through those final 30 or so minutes of games.  Give them the freedom and the coaching to come out of that 'safe' mode game and as a team chase a game with sharper, faster, more explosive bite.

It'll need new players as it will need ruthlessness in dropping players that don't have the legs or lungs to keep things motoring in a looser running brand.  It will require players breaking away from this ingrained habit of seeking the nearest opposition players and running headlong at them, ready to do their duty of going to ground and recycling (repeat as desired ).  

But come on, we have to get our minds out of this 'safe' mode crap and I do think it begins with us fans and us demanding that Joe Schmidt finds the courage within himself to go back to his Provincial sensibilities and indeed inject himself with renewed enthusiasm for the job also by doing so.  Let the players believe in him by seriously showing them that he believes in their ability to rise above the drudgery of endless phase play.

If I was Gilroy, Bryne or Sweetnam what message does it send

What has Stuart McCloskey got to do to get picked, he has been Ulsters shinning light this season.

geoff999rugby wrote:If I was Gilroy, Bryne or Sweetnam what message does it send

Not sure what the issue with Gilroy however, the other two the issue is experience.

Schmidt never brings un-capped players in mid tournament nor towards the end. If a player hasnt been in the squad from the start then they generally wont be called up unless they are an experienced player. McFadden is an experienced player and has been in many Ireland squads so makes sense that he is called up to plug a hole rather than a young guy who has never been in an Ireland squad.

If Schmidt was faced with the same injury list pre tournament Im sure it would have been someone like Adam Byrne that would have been called up.

in a recent fan Q&A which I attended Schmidt was questioned by a fan on a very similar point and he said that young guys need to be involved in squads for a while before they feature in match days squads. The reason being if they are parachuted in too quickly it can all go horribly wrong and ruin a guys confidence for a long time.

In making his point he made reference to a young Auckland player that he once coached who was called up to the ABs squad because he was tearing it up in domestic rugby. However, he hadn’t had enough time to digest the unique pressure of featuring in an national squad and his performances bombed and his confidence took a big dent. He refused to say who it was but Isaia Toeava fits all the criteria.

LordDowlais wrote:What has Stuart McCloskey got to do to get picked, he has been Ulsters shinning light this season.

No he hasn't - in the backs Ludik, Piatau, Stockdale and Marshall all looked better.
Olding, Cave, Payne, Gilroy not really played enough to compare.

What he has got to do is defend properly.
Currently both Olding and Marshall are preferable at 12 for Ulster let alone other players

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If I was Gilroy, Bryne or Sweetnam what message does it send

Not sure what the issue with Gilroy however, the other two the issue is experience.

Schmidt never brings un-capped players in mid tournament nor towards the end. If a player hasnt been in the squad from the start then they generally wont be called up unless they are an experienced player. McFadden is an experienced player and has been in many Ireland squads so makes sense that he is called up to plug a hole rather than a young guy who has never been in an Ireland squad.

If Schmidt was faced with the same injury list pre tournament Im sure it would have been someone like Adam Byrne that would have been called up.

in a recent fan Q&A which I attended Schmidt was questioned by a fan on a very similar point and he said that young guys need to be involved in squads for a while before they feature in match days squads. The reason being if they are parachuted in too quickly it can all go horribly wrong and ruin a guys confidence for a long time.

In making his point he made reference to a young Auckland player that he once coached who was called up to the ABs squad because he was tearing it up in domestic rugby. However, he hadn’t had enough time to digest the unique pressure of featuring in an national squad and his performances bombed and his confidence took a big dent. He refused to say who it was but Isaia Toeava fits all the criteria.

The whole point is one, or more, of these players should have been involved from the beginning of the tournament.

What you are saying is Schmidt cant do something because he didn't do something earlier - well whose fault is that ??

This the perfect game to see what young talent can do - Bryne or Sweetnam on the bench would benefit them greatly.
As to Gilroy he scored a hat-trick in 30 mins but still is ignored.

If I was Gilroy after that I'd be saying to myself maybe when my contract is up (next summer) - stuff Ireland I'll go and earn some cash elsewhere.
That would not surprise me in the least.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What has Stuart McCloskey got to do to get picked, he has been Ulsters shinning light this season.

No he hasn't - in the backs Ludik, Piatau, Stockdale and Marshall all looked better.
Olding, Cave, Payne, Gilroy not really played enough to compare.

What he has got to do is defend properly.
Currently both Olding and Marshall are preferable at 12 for Ulster let alone other players

He's big, fast and strong, perfect for how Schmidt is trying to get Ireland playing.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What has Stuart McCloskey got to do to get picked, he has been Ulsters shinning light this season.

No he hasn't - in the backs Ludik, Piatau, Stockdale and Marshall all looked better.
Olding, Cave, Payne, Gilroy not really played enough to compare.

What he has got to do is defend properly.
Currently both Olding and Marshall are preferable at 12 for Ulster let alone other players

He's big, fast and strong, perfect for how Schmidt is trying to get Ireland playing.

What Schmidt values above all else in his backs is an ability to defend and successfully recycle the ball - that is why Henshaw and Payne are first choice centres.
That is why McCloskey is out in the wilderness - his defence has been very poor this year.

Just heard Earls might be a doubt. I'm expecting Dave Kearney to be called up. If not him, maybe hickie or horgan to answer Joe's call.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

In making his point he made reference to a young Auckland player that he once coached who was called up to the ABs squad because he was tearing it up in domestic rugby. However, he hadn’t had enough time to digest the unique pressure of featuring in an national squad and his performances bombed and his confidence took a big dent. He refused to say who it was but Isaia Toeava fits all the criteria.

That's one player.  There are plenty of alternative cases where these players don't crumble under the pressure and readily take the strain.

What Joe really means, and what he's often alluded to, is that necessity to be up to speed with the systems he has going and the discipline he requires from players to effect those systems.  He wants to impress on the players their duty, and that takes time.  He keeps talking about players needing to have been part of the build up to any given game - and you can naturally extend that out to young players entering his system from the very beginning.  

I don't like it that a player like Niyi (just for example) got a sniff of International camp last Autumn but now may have to wait another year or even two to get another sniff if indeed he ever gets another look in at all.  He's 26.  In his prime years.  Byrne is 22.  Bowe is 33.  McFadden is 30.  Sometimes the logic of it all deserts me.  That kind of pace for 'young' player entry into the squad is much too cautious.

Joe has become dogged in this supposed 'winning' structure; but the truth is it doesn't win all the time and when it does, it's often so slim.  Plus, it's a bollix on player welfare as regards repetitive injury risks - and it dulls our more creative attacking potential as our backs have to be disciplined to the structure rather than be alive to instinctive opportunities.  We score tries but the efforts taken to do so are often monumental, especially when you see players actively deny themselves space because of 'anti-risk' clauses in their training orders.

Maine man wrote:Just heard Earls might be a doubt. I'm expecting Dave Kearney to be called up. If not him, maybe hickie or horgan to answer Joe's call.

Probably asking if Nacewa is IQ yet

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What has Stuart McCloskey got to do to get picked, he has been Ulsters shinning light this season.

No he hasn't - in the backs Ludik, Piatau, Stockdale and Marshall all looked better.
Olding, Cave, Payne, Gilroy not really played enough to compare.

What he has got to do is defend properly.
Currently both Olding and Marshall are preferable at 12 for Ulster let alone other players

He's big, [fast] and strong, perfect for how Schmidt is trying to get Ireland playing.

Please delete word in squared brackets.  Ireland inc does not recognise such a word and will begin litigation proceedings against said personage - LordDowlais - if he does not remove offensive word this instant!

Maine man wrote:Just heard Earls might be a doubt. I'm expecting Dave Kearney to be called up. If not him, maybe hickie or horgan to answer Joe's call.

What about that Munster winger caught by a Rumanian lock a few years back - he'd be perfect

Was that Anto Hurricane Horgan?

Cripes the whining north of the border getting shriller than a DUP councilor who didn't get his heating allowance. Even ROG v Useless Dave is being touted. Sorry lads except for Gilroy the rest are also rans.

So you can all Fergus McFadden off.

Still the world record for lowest centre of gravity. McFadden ain't all bad.

SecretFly wrote:Still the world record for lowest centre of gravity.  McFadden ain't all bad.

I completely forgot that established fact and I apologise for questioning Schmidt's better judgement.

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Cripes the whining north of the border getting shriller than a DUP councilor who didn't get his heating allowance. Even ROG v Useless Dave is being touted. Sorry lads except for Gilroy the rest are also rans.

So you can all Fergus McFadden off.

Says a man who posted 'No Gilroy is too capable of beating a man and being creative. Therefore he is surplus to requirements'

Ireland will win nothing with McFadden on the wing, yesterdays man and not good enough when he wasn't
This conservatism will kill us in the long run - it is a handicap both Ireland and Ulster suffer from.

Whose shrilling two of the names pit forward are from Munster and Leinster

As for those tossers the DUP never ever associate my name with them again.........ever

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Cripes the whining north of the border getting shriller than a DUP councilor who didn't get his heating allowance. Even ROG v Useless Dave is being touted. Sorry lads except for Gilroy the rest are also rans.

So you can all Fergus McFadden off.

We nordies are revolting! oh ......

Right. Think I'm sober.
Anyway regarding yesterday's game. The second row looked a lot more powerful with hendo in there, gave us a lot more grunt and aggression.
The back row looked a lot more balanced and effective, but would love to see vdf at 7 with pom and stander, and the likes of leavy and conan as bench options.
Marmion and McGrath both looked more than capable
Sexton was nails as normal.
Henshaw his hat looked silly but was powerful and looked hungry.
Ringrose his defense impressed me a lot.
Earls looked lively unlucky to get injured.
Zebo just seems out of sorts
Payne. Forget a couple of droped balls he just glided round the park and should stay at 15.
The bench all looked good coming on but would want ultan back when fit

As for going forward I would like to see sweetman Adam Byrne Olding and Stockdale all get a fair crack of the whip.

carpet baboon wrote:Earls looked lively unlucky to get injured.

I thought Earls was very poor and had got hooked at half time.

Really pleased for Rory, comprehensively outplayed Hartley (as he normally does).
POM slightly rusty but that performance was right out of the Quinlan handbook of cutehoorishness
When Healy comes on now the scrum weakens