Ireland 2016/17 season

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6 Nations
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I don't think Ringrose is the problem at all.

I actually think Henshaw needs a little more..... well, I don't know.  

I think Ringrose would function better if Henshaw was a little bit more visible in making more space creatively.  Henshaw is good but he's a bludgeon of sorts. And I know, I know - if that's the Schmidt tactics, it's hard for a player to ignore them.  

We know though the kind of combo that Ireland relied on when BOD and D'Arcy were in their prime.  They couldn't rely so much on bulk (though BOD hit above his weight in that department   ) so had to try to be smarter.  

New period, new game, new tactics of course but a player like Ringrose would flourish with a few more creatively sparked players around him (or with that kind of gameplan being allowed).  

I think Henshaw is helped by Payne.  The 12/13 combination then becomes something more solid than when Ringrose is there, but it becomes even more robust in its defensive mind-set.

I think henshaw can be creative. He has a good step good hands but we do use him as a exorcet missile, which would be ok if we had some genuinely pacey wingers or a fullback who can join the line at pace running lines off him.
Unfortunately most teams know he's getting the ball and smashing I to contact. A bit more clever pacey play and he will start gliding through the holes

He's used as a bludgeon, he isn't a playmaker but he does excel with space and he has a good offloading game (with a bit more time and space). He just isn't a 12. I've said it from the start, but it is one of the reasons why we don't use space as well as we should.

Basically I would rather see one of Olding, Marshall or Scannell in there. They have the bulk as well as the extra playmaking abilities. I know that as long as Schmidt and Henshaw are there, Henshaw is the starting 12. Which is a real shame. He was an exceptional 13/15.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there anyone else who thinks that the Henshaw-Ringrose combination doesn't quite gel?

There is something not quite right about it. Maybe its just early days yet and possibly a bit more time with Sexton/Murray.

Interesting interview with Chris Farrell which suggests he could be in the Ireland picture as well. He said that Schmidt has kept in fairly close contact with him (reviewing his games, giving him pointers etc). I don't really know a lot about chris Farrell, but he seems to be getting rave reviews in France, so who knows.

Here is the shortened version.

https://www.joe.ie/sport/munster-signing-chris-farrell-reveals-joe-schmidts-unique-influence-move-578310

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Basically I would rather see one of Olding, Marshall or Scannell in there. They have the bulk as well as the extra playmaking abilities. I know that as long as Schmidt and Henshaw are there, Henshaw is the starting 12. Which is a real shame. He was an exceptional 13/15.

I have to agree here. I would also have Olding, Marshall or Scannell at 12 with Henshaw/Ringrose at 13. Right now I feel its too early for Ringrose, his time will come. I would also not have Payne at 13, he is much better at 15 where he is far more of an attacking threat and defensively very solid.

My ideal backline would be this.

09 : Murray
10 : Sexton
11 : Gilroy
12 : Marshall
13 : Henshaw
14 : Zebo
15 : Payne (If Payne unfit then TOH)

Defensively very solid but also very quick and has a great balance.

We all know that from now on Henshaw is the 12, though. That is the frustrating thing.

I just don't understand what Schmidt has against Olding, Marshall and McCloskey. Never felt that either were given a proper chance under him.

Olding - injury problems
Marshall - consistency
McCloskey - defence

If Olding can stay fit, the shirt should be his. I really like Scannell too, but he also needs to work on consistency. He is very similar to Luke Marshall in both playing style and weaknesses.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Olding - injury problems
Marshall - consistency
McCloskey - defence

If Olding can stay fit, the shirt should be his. I really like Scannell too, but he also needs to work on consistency. He is very similar to Luke Marshall in both playing style and weaknesses.

Yeah my thoughts exactly. Consistency is very important.


As for the Henshaw - Ringrose partnership, I'd agree that its a little off. It could be down to how Schmidt wants the team to play. They might just be following instructions which doesn't give them the freedom to gel. How they do with Leinster will be more telling.
Henshaw is basically a battering ram now. Go back to the pro12 final last year and he was outstanding when linking up with his teammates.

Yeah, he is. I predicted it would happen with Henshaw. Sigh.

Chris Farrell is like Jaco Taute - without the subtlety.

Trimble out for the rest of the six nations with a broken hand. Who will replace him? Gilroy has to be front of the line

Next year I hope Schmidt takes a good look at - Sweetnam, Bryne and Stockdale

The future for Ireland when it comes to the back three

geoff999rugby wrote:Next year I hope Schmidt takes a good look at - Sweetnam, Bryne and Stockdale

The future for Ireland when it comes to the back three

Yup they should be on the summer tour regardless of who is with the lions

That Byrne isn't already with the squad is a disgrace!

Well someone has to show the right amount of umbrage now that George Hook has left the building.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there anyone else who thinks that the Henshaw-Ringrose combination doesn't quite gel?

I think McCloskey - Ringrose is the dream team.

Henshaw has a good workrate but doesn't offer much else.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there anyone else who thinks that the Henshaw-Ringrose combination doesn't quite gel?

I think McCloskey - Ringrose is the dream team.  

Henshaw has a good workrate but doesn't offer much else.

Because Hanshaw is being deployed as a Doc Roberts Mark11 battering ram player. If given his best and most comfortable position, 13, and with a good ball playing 12 (Olding, Marshall or Scannell) I think you would see Henshaw offer a hell of a lot more.

Seriously though. Joe should have done more testing. The players that would have been dropped in are man enough to take the strain. This Dads army (even if it's a new version that doesn't include D'arcy, BOD, POC or ROG) approach is already stale looking.

Henshaw will not budge. Even if he gets injured, he will take back the jersey on return even if the next Mike Gibson was playing there in his absence. He is one of the Schmidt favourites.

"Gibson is a bit unlucky to miss out, he brings a lot to the table, but Henshaw has been really consistent for us".

I posted this on the Ireland v Wales thread too - I'm in a mood to stick up for Joe this morning

In defence of Joe!!

Who are we going to get in world rugby that is better than Joe Schmidt?

He may be cautious, but he is a winner – and his coaching history bares that out.
He is seeing the guys first hand every day in training, he has extensive coaching experience and he knows the personalities of the players.
He has won 2 six nations titles and beaten NZ for the first time forever.

We have had some bad results mixed in there too, but are we punching below our weight? Definitely not. If anything I would say Joe has taken a group of players that are not the most talented we have ever had and elevated them to a consistently high level. That has raised our expectations. Unreasonably perhaps.

I can remember the second half of the 80’s and the 90’s very clearly – it was not pretty. Irish rugby has come on immeasurably in the professional era, Joe is currently playing his part in that.

I don’t think he has a golden generation of players to choose from either. Wales on Saturday man for man have a similar standard of players but I believe Ireland will win because Joe is a superior coach.
His rugby has been called boring and unadventurous, but yet his team hammered Italy in Rome scoring 9 tries. When was the last time we ever scored 9 tries against anyone? We have the best points difference currently in the 6 nations.

He is not beyond criticism but he is playing winning rugby.

My question is, ‘who is better?’

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there anyone else who thinks that the Henshaw-Ringrose combination doesn't quite gel?

I think McCloskey - Ringrose is the dream team.  

Henshaw has a good workrate but doesn't offer much else.

I hope there is a smilie missing because I cannot take that post seriously

Ulsters 3rd best 12 and a player who is not a patch, yet, on Payne.

I would love to see Olding 12 henshaw 13. Personally I think that midfield with Byrne and sweetman on the wings could be devastating

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Is there anyone else who thinks that the Henshaw-Ringrose combination doesn't quite gel?

I think McCloskey - Ringrose is the dream team.  

Henshaw has a good workrate but doesn't offer much else.

Because Hanshaw is being deployed as a Doc Roberts Mark11 battering ram player. If given his best and most comfortable position, 13, and with a good ball playing 12 (Olding, Marshall or Scannell) I think you would see Henshaw offer a hell of a lot more.

He's a poor mans Rob Henderson, he's only getting the push because the IRFU sponsors use him on posters and Schmidt and BOD invested so much time in him.

McCloskey and Farrell are better in every department, they just need a bit more time in the camps to get up to speed. And lets not forget MR Bundi-aki ....

rapidsnowman wrote:I posted this on the Ireland v Wales thread too - I'm in a mood to stick up for Joe this morning

In defence of Joe!!

Who are we going to get in world rugby that is better than Joe Schmidt?

He may be cautious, but he is a winner – and his coaching history bares that out.
He is seeing the guys first hand every day in training, he has extensive coaching experience and he knows the personalities of the players.
He has won 2 six nations titles and beaten NZ for the first time forever.

We have had some bad results mixed in there too, but are we punching below our weight? Definitely not. If anything I would say Joe has taken a group of players that are not the most talented we have ever had and elevated them to a consistently high level. That has raised our expectations. Unreasonably perhaps.

I can remember the second half of the 80’s and the 90’s very clearly – it was not pretty. Irish rugby has come on immeasurably in the professional era, Joe is currently playing his part in that.

I don’t think he has a golden generation of players to choose from either. Wales on Saturday man for man have a similar standard of players but I believe Ireland will win because Joe is a superior coach.
His rugby has been called boring and unadventurous, but yet his team hammered Italy in Rome scoring 9 tries. When was the last time we ever scored 9 tries against anyone? We have the best points difference currently in the 6 nations.

He is not beyond criticism but he is playing winning rugby.

My question is, ‘who is better?’

Schmidt is the best coach in World rugby. In fact we now have the best professional structure in the world game.

The IRFU have done an incredible job bringing in Nucifera and the investment in experienced coaches like Farrell,  Lancaster, Erasmas, Lamb and now the likes of Gibbs alongside home grown coaches. We just need to get the amateur and school structures up to scratch and we'll really challenge NZ consistently. All this one Joe's' watch is no coincidence.

Unfortunately our fans are the biggest moaners around but hey ho you can't have it all.

rapidsnowman wrote:I posted this on the Ireland v Wales thread too - I'm in a mood to stick up for Joe this morning

In defence of Joe!!

Who are we going to get in world rugby that is better than Joe Schmidt?

He may be cautious, but he is a winner – and his coaching history bares that out.
He is seeing the guys first hand every day in training, he has extensive coaching experience and he knows the personalities of the players.
He has won 2 six nations titles and beaten NZ for the first time forever.

We have had some bad results mixed in there too, but are we punching below our weight? Definitely not. If anything I would say Joe has taken a group of players that are not the most talented we have ever had and elevated them to a consistently high level. That has raised our expectations. Unreasonably perhaps.

I can remember the second half of the 80’s and the 90’s very clearly – it was not pretty. Irish rugby has come on immeasurably in the professional era, Joe is currently playing his part in that.

I don’t think he has a golden generation of players to choose from either. Wales on Saturday man for man have a similar standard of players but I believe Ireland will win because Joe is a superior coach.
His rugby has been called boring and unadventurous, but yet his team hammered Italy in Rome scoring 9 tries. When was the last time we ever scored 9 tries against anyone? We have the best points difference currently in the 6 nations.

He is not beyond criticism but he is playing winning rugby.

My question is, ‘who is better?’

Other firsts under Joe:

First win in SA
First time beating France in the world cup
First time Ireland have even beaten Australia in a high scoring game. Both teams over 20 points. He has achieved this twice.
2nd time Ireland have reached 2nd in the world
First time Ireland have defeated all three Sanzar teams in one year.

rodders wrote:

Schmidt is the best coach in World rugby. In fact we now have the best professional structure in the world game.

The IRFU have done an incredible job bringing in Nucifera and the investment in experienced coaches like Farrell,  Lancaster, Erasmas, Lamb and now the likes of Gibbs alongside home grown coaches. We just need to get the amateur and school structures up to scratch and we'll really challenge NZ consistently. All this one Joe's' watch is no coincidence.

Unfortunately our fans are the biggest moaners around but hey ho you can't have it all.

You nailed it Rodders. Particularly the part about having moaner fans.

The only thing Joe hasn't achieved really is a WC semi final and he has only had one crack at that. He consistently achieves lots of other milestones with his teams and yet the whinging has never stopped. Its bizarre really.

There was a massive swell of negativity about how Ireland play negative rugby and dont offload and dont score tries etc etc and then we put 40 points on the ABs playing Joe's way. It was quite funny really.

carpet baboon wrote:I would love to see Olding 12 henshaw 13. Personally I think that midfield with Byrne and sweetman on the wings could be devastating

So would I

Henshaw is a good player being used in a way that suits the team but does not showcase his skill range.
Will Aki coming in Henshaw moving to 13 is a distinct possibility.

Difficult to consider McCloskey when he wont even be a starter for Ulster next year.
He had to be used by Ulster because of the weak backrow  to break the gain line.
That should not be a problem next year with - Botha, Coetzee, Reidy/Henry next year + Henderson if needed.
He will have his work cut out to get in front of Olding and Marshall next year who, for example, offer a kicking option, he doesn't.

As to Farrell I have to say to even mention him is slightly bizarre.
When he left Ulster he was a brute of a player with poor handling skills and no kicking game.
There seems to a common mistake made here of Irish players in France being bigged up on next to no evidence.
From what I have seen there is nothing to indicate Farrell, or indeed Hart, are anything more than solid squad players and nowhere near the required standard for Ireland

Where is Mccloskey off to?

Ringrose is a real talent and will be in the 13 shirt for some time.

Ironically he is the type of young, speedy, flair player fans are lamenting we don't have and yet he is fits the bill and he's in the team!!!

He's not perfect yet - of course not he's still young.

Would Byrne and Sweetnam be perfect if they came in? - no!!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

There was a massive swell of negativity about how Ireland play negative rugby and dont offload and dont score tries etc etc and then we put 40 points on the ABs playing Joe's way. It was quite funny really.

Putting 40 points on the ABs in a foreign country is not funny - I think it actually highlights the issue some people have with our methodology.  If you look for example at our results and then look at how most of it is generated through our forwards doing monumental work at the coal face in breakdown and rolling maul stuff and phase play etc etc.  You look at where we deny ourselves opportunity to exploit some gapping spaces in order to keep plugging down our narrow (effective but narrow) channels and you say to yourself, how good could this Ireland side be if they just allowed themselves some breathers to actually play heads-up attack rugby more often and chance spreading the ball wider quicker more often and putting in players that could exploit such opportunities. I believe we are very effective at our game - great, it gets results, but I think we leave a lot of opportunities behind us too due to our controlled/'safe' style. 
Is Ireland afraid to dream too high?  If this team has the ammo to be second in the world with a touch more creative ambition when in the opposition half of the field, then why not highlight that and suggest we might get there with some loosening up of our narrow, forwards-based, breakdown aggression and heavy defending gameplan?
We add a few more elements into the mix (consistently) and I think we still win games but our tagline shifts from 'negative' to 'positive'. There is nothing negative about positive.  And in my view, I also think a looser game is easier on players overall in terms of those attritional injuries we generally suffer from each season; (touch wood not so much this season thankfully)

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I posted this on the Ireland v Wales thread too - I'm in a mood to stick up for Joe this morning

In defence of Joe!!

Who are we going to get in world rugby that is better than Joe Schmidt?

He may be cautious, but he is a winner – and his coaching history bares that out.
He is seeing the guys first hand every day in training, he has extensive coaching experience and he knows the personalities of the players.
He has won 2 six nations titles and beaten NZ for the first time forever.

We have had some bad results mixed in there too, but are we punching below our weight? Definitely not. If anything I would say Joe has taken a group of players that are not the most talented we have ever had and elevated them to a consistently high level. That has raised our expectations. Unreasonably perhaps.

I can remember the second half of the 80’s and the 90’s very clearly – it was not pretty. Irish rugby has come on immeasurably in the professional era, Joe is currently playing his part in that.

I don’t think he has a golden generation of players to choose from either. Wales on Saturday man for man have a similar standard of players but I believe Ireland will win because Joe is a superior coach.
His rugby has been called boring and unadventurous, but yet his team hammered Italy in Rome scoring 9 tries. When was the last time we ever scored 9 tries against anyone? We have the best points difference currently in the 6 nations.

He is not beyond criticism but he is playing winning rugby.

My question is, ‘who is better?’

Other firsts under Joe:

First win in SA
First time beating France in the world cup
First time Ireland have even beaten Australia in a high scoring game. Both teams over 20 points. He has achieved this twice.
2nd time Ireland have reached 2nd in the world
First time Ireland have defeated all three Sanzar teams in one year.

All true, but facts without analysis are useless. For example, Australia and South Africa have been playing the worst rugby in recent history.

I think we get a few big wins each year through attritional warfare, but it isn't sustainable and we lack consistency as a result.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Where is Mccloskey off to?

He is going nowhere but the brutal truth is Ulster will prefer the more creating talents of Olding and Marshall at 12 next year now we have a 6/8 of Coetzee/Botha.
This year we have had to play McCloskey because Ross/Wilson have been appalling bad.
He has sometimes been the only player capable of breaking the gain line - different situation now.

My point is hard to see a Provincial 3rd choice 12 being considered for Ireland.
Mind you that has not stopped Ulsters 7th best winger, on this years performances, making the Ireland bench this Friday.

http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-ireland-wales-cardiff-disappointment-3282548-Mar2017/

http://www.the42.ie/rory-best-ireland-wales-silly-mental-errors-3282733-Mar2017/

I'm really fed up with this nonsense. Schmidt is adamant that his brand of rugby is good and that it is working. This is loser-talk, quite simply. Would Eddie Jones or even Warren Gatland come out with this after losing? You may hate either or both of these coaches, but they demand a win. Gatland has got the better of Schmidt far too often since he came in.

"Fine margins" - which Irish coach received huge criticism for giving these sorts of interviews?

Schmidt isn't ruthless. I've heard all about Schmidt as this ruthless coach and I believed it but I am yet to see any evidence of it. He picks his mates and he sticks with what he knows. If we were playing really well and losing that would be one thing, but I think we are consistently average and get our big win each season and then we are shown up for being spoofers.

Schmidt would probably be an excellent coach for a team like England or even Wales. He has players available to him to play that sort of rugby consistently. Big lumps in the pack or in the backs who can punch holes over and over. Ireland don't have this. They need to play with pace. They need to create space. They have the players to do this.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-ireland-wales-cardiff-disappointment-3282548-Mar2017/

http://www.the42.ie/rory-best-ireland-wales-silly-mental-errors-3282733-Mar2017/

I'm really fed up with this nonsense. Schmidt is adamant that his brand of rugby is good and that it is working. This is loser-talk, quite simply. Would Eddie Jones or even Warren Gatland come out with this after losing? You may hate either or both of these coaches, but they demand a win. Gatland has got the better of Schmidt far too often since he came in.

"Fine margins" - which Irish coach received huge criticism for giving these sorts of interviews?

Schmidt isn't ruthless. I've heard all about Schmidt as this ruthless coach and I believed it but I am yet to see any evidence of it. He picks his mates and he sticks with what he knows. If we were playing really well and losing that would be one thing, but I think we are consistently average and get our big win each season and then we are shown up for being spoofers.

Schmidt would probably be an excellent coach for a team like England or even Wales. He has players available to him to play that sort of rugby consistently. Big lumps in the pack or in the backs who can punch holes over and over. Ireland don't have this. They need to play with pace. They need to create space. They have the players to do this.

Joe Schmidt needs to be hard on himself now, hard on his ideas that don't work often enough and grinds our players down bit by bit through these series with the constant hit, hit, hit stuff week after week; and hard on his selections from this point on.  The team isn't working as a whole and the ship needs to be turned into something more potent.  It's too much effort to win, too much effort then trying to cling on.  Good teams make winning look easy and that's because their inventiveness makes it easy.

Blasphemy. Joe is brilliant

The back three should threaten the opposition not just be there to recycle ball.

The backrow need to protect the half backs likes Wales do - our badly balanced backrow don't .

For starters decide between Stander and Heaslip at 8 and play POM
Picking both is a bottle job.

Also lets have a proper 7 we were crying out for one on Friday

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Blasphemy. Joe is brilliant

"Blasphemy! Blasphemy! They all have it blasted in for me" ?

Yesterday's game was probably the worst I've seen during Joe's reign. We need a shake up....

So, what are the options available to us??

Front Row - Our front row has been fine, nothing special, but fine. Maybe give Kilcoyne a game next week. I think pressure got to Best during his lions audition last night, and he really did himself no favours, but he has plenty of credit in the bank.

Second Row - the role of the second row is becoming increasingly blurry. The position is becoming more and more interchangeable with the back row. (Itoje, Lawes, Both Grays, Launchbury, Henderson come to mind). We need to start Henderson. If nothing else, he's usually the one who bludgeons over when we go into our mundane 5 metre line bash-a-thon.

Back row - SOB should be dropped out of the 22. Stander should move to 8, POM 6 and VDF at 7. It's incredibly frustrating to see Ireland's backs (particularly centres) hitting more rucks than most other players in the first 5 phases in the opposition 22. CJ and SOB are being man-marked and sent backwards, crashing it up without any guile whatsoever and requiring the backs to secure the ball too often. VDF is a ruck efficiency machine, and should improve the situation. POM will bring a bit of energy, and should help the lineout.

Centres - I see the centres as a potentially very good, modern partnership. Ringrose is clearly learning and hasn't shown very much over the tournament - but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, as I don't think we have any other bona fide outside centres.

Back 3 - Earls/Kearney/Zebo aren't scaring anybody. Kearney is frankly phenomenal at catching a high ball, but that's it. Payne should pose more of a threat, and could help our attacking shape - which has been non existent after 3/4 phases. Earls can beat a player on a sixpence, but he never seems to make a clean break. It will not happen and he isn't in the squad, but despite the calls for Gilroy, I think Joe should consider Adam Byrne. He is, fairly objectively, the form winger in the club game this season. He has flaws, but they're the same flaws Gilroy has. More realistically, I think Conway could have a great game if given the chance.

I really don't think selection is the problem anymore. Anyone who can produce a bit of magic will be purified and fixed to play like the rest of the Schmidtoids. They won't get the time on the ball to do any of that anyway.

Schmidt gets his team to play a very structured game - as soon as that stops working, the players become rabbits in headlights.

kunu wrote: I think Joe should consider Adam Byrne. He is, fairly objectively, the form winger in the club game this season.

Joint top try scorer in the Pro 12 this season, Jacob Stockdale

My future back three:

11) Stockdale
14) Byrne
15) Sweetnam

...and here we go again with the usual "which Ulster player shall I hang out to dry this time" crap that has come to be expected from Schmidt.

http://www.the42.ie/johnny-sexton-ireland-garry-ringrose-3282888-Mar2017/

As far as I can see, having watched the try again, Jackson was covering Bigger who was in behind Webb. Instead, Webb popped the inside ball to Williams and Henshaw missed the tackle. But Henshaw isn't ever going to get criticised for his errors.

Either way, I don't like it when Schmidt does this. He didn't do it to Sexton for his kick that was charged down so he shouldn't do it for Jackson. He needs to shoulder a lot of the blame himself.

I mean, for flip sake, Garry Ringrose is having to stick up for Jackson.

Apparently a late bus beat us in Scotland and watering the grass beat us in wales

Was it Ulsterbus by any chance?

I believe so. If it was Dublinbus we would have won

Apparently Gats was sad that we lost too.  He was obviously shook at the end there.  The love-in continues.  He'll never get over us.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:...and here we go again with the usual "which Ulster player shall I hang out to dry this time" crap that has come to be expected from Schmidt.

http://www.the42.ie/johnny-sexton-ireland-garry-ringrose-3282888-Mar2017/

As far as I can see, having watched the try again, Jackson was covering Bigger who was in behind Webb. Instead, Webb popped the inside ball to Williams and Henshaw missed the tackle. But Henshaw isn't ever going to get criticised for his errors.

Either way, I don't like it when Schmidt does this. He didn't do it to Sexton for his kick that was charged down so he shouldn't do it for Jackson. He needs to shoulder a lot of the blame himself.

I mean, for flip sake, Garry Ringrose is having to stick up for Jackson.

Exactly my thinking when I read the article. In fact, my thoughts before reading the article were that Sexton's many errors on the day would be brushed under the carpet, and that  Schmidt would have a sly dig at some player, not in his circle, and that player turned out to be Jackson.

Schmidt is a one-eyed coward.

I say. Steady on