England v Argentina, 26 November

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

A. Head to Head

19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282

B. Recent Form

9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England

15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England

8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England

10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England

14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England

13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina

6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England

11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade

ARGENTINA

15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera

Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles

offload wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:First call referee has gotten right for 70 minutes

Ref had an excellent game.  

I respectfully beg to differ.

A score line that probably reflects a bad game fairly, if perhaps flattering England slightly.

Argentina were very poor and England were far from their best but took chances as required.

In terms of individuals for Argentina - Hernandez needs to be kept away from that 10 shirt. Santiago Cordero is a fantastic player. Matera and Isa are outstanding back rows but in need of a break. Herrara is going to be a great tight head. Creevy is probably my pick for next best hooker in the world after Dane Coles, plus he's a fantastic captain.

For England individually - Mako and Billy were once again fantastic. Kruis slipped back into things seamlessly. Robshaw just keeps on going. Wood put in probably his best performance since NZ 2012. Ben Youngs and Ford continue to look an excellent partnership. Jonny May is looking more like fulfilling his promise. Brown still needs to learn how and when to pass.

My pick for MOM would have been between JJ and Lawes. Joseph is just so good in defence and links with his back three excellently. Lawes on the other hand was finally making those big hits we've seen on half backs but this time against big forwards, excellent show from the Saint.

trebellbobaggins wrote:now that is true Nathan.  if they have learned more about their defensive game then that is positive.

Aussie have to be favourites next week though by some margin.  

I agree, they'll want revenge, to stop us going a year unbeaten.

It will depend on what happens with billy, but then again I've said before when missing a vital player we would struggle but someone came in and we still player well

If Billy is out it gives Hughes a chance to start if he's fit.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The performance of the back row in general under Jones including the much maligned Wood and Robshaw has been a big positive.

Wood and Robshaw were highly vaunted in their early Lancaster careers!

No arguments about the red card for Daly,  but Argentina proceed to cheat like bastards from that moment onwards. Daly was an idiot thought. Very pleased from an English point of view, never really looked like losing despite losing Daly and Billy. Reckon we'll lose next week though. Defence hasn't been good and we're owed one. Hope I am proved wrong.

nathan wrote:

trebellbobaggins wrote:now that is true Nathan.  if they have learned more about their defensive game then that is positive.

Aussie have to be favourites next week though by some margin.  

I agree, they'll want revenge, to stop us going a year unbeaten.

It will depend on what happens with billy, but then again I've said before when missing a vital player we would struggle but someone came in and we still player well

Indeed. if they want to stop anybody it will be us. They will be massive. It might hinge on how and if we can replace Billy.

Today's defensive test may just have been good for us in the end.

Cumbrian wrote:No arguments about the red card for Daly,  but Argentina proceed to cheat like bastards from that moment onwards. Daly was an idiot thought. Very pleased from an English point of view, never really looked like losing despite losing Daly and Billy. Reckon we'll lose next week though. Defence hasn't been good and we're owed one. Hope I am proved wrong.

I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can, but I'm honestly amazed that Argentina didn't get about twice as many yellows as they did

If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Aussie are huge favourites for next week. Stopping them is going to take one monumental effort.

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Probably

I am pretty sure Billy will be out btw

I thought Lawes or May for MotM, May seemed to be everywhere covering in defence, seemed like we had a winger on both sides. Lawes seemed to not only tackle anything that moved and with some big hits, but just how fast is he? At one point the Pumas broke through the centre and Lawes was overtaking JJ to get to the player for a lock his engine matches Robshaw and he has a lot more pace.

Credit also to the half backs, they were also very sharp and kept the game moving in the right areas.

I think a lot of credit should go to Hartley as well, keeping the side together and performing the way they did against not only a man disadvantage all game but some very strange refereeing decisions was top class captaincy. It is why he is there and not George;who else in the side could handle that sort of captaincy task with such aplomb

ChequeredJersey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Probably

I am pretty sure Billy will be out btw

Errrr......... how about the guy that performed pretty well there today after Billy went off????

Or as we are in a very Bomber sort of side, ............ Wood

Some defensive mistakes last couple of weeks but not sure how people can call this Australia side favourites at Twickenham. Squeaked past France and Scotland, and just look at their results against us and SA.

Even this was a bigger winning margin than Oz last managed against Argentina, with 14 men.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Probably

I am pretty sure Billy will be out btw

Errrr......... how about the guy that performed pretty well there today after Billy went off????

Or as we are in a very Bomber sort of side, ............ Wood

Harrison?

Think we'll struggle next week, australia look good at the ruck

In the summer Australia were underpowered in the forwards and a very mixed bag in the backs. Folau was always very dangerous and there were some good moments from the fijian centers (And of course their best back was probably Hooper).

No reason why we can't still smash their forwards and make life tough for the rest of them. They will be hugely motivated for this game though

Farrell just punished them and their tactical kicking is inconsistent at best.

nathan wrote:Think we'll struggle next week, australia look good at the ruck

But that is always a trade off they are prepared to make. They go with the two opensides it leaves them with less bulk in the forwards which is dangerous considering how strong our forwards are.

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Now that is an interesting choice.

lostinwales wrote:

nathan wrote:Think we'll struggle next week, australia look good at the ruck

But that is always a trade off they are prepared to make. They go with the two opensides it leaves them with less bulk in the forwards which is dangerous considering how strong our forwards are.

Our bulky back row definitely got the better of things earlier in the year, Haskell set the tone with that thunderous hit on Pocock, the best hope the Aussies have is if we go with Harrison instead of Hughes.

nathan wrote:Think we'll struggle next week, australia look good at the ruck

The pooper effect; you need the likes of billy v to knock their heads off and put them out of the game as we did this summer.

Mind you, watching the Wallabies now and they aren't filling me with dread.

nathan wrote:Think we'll struggle next week, australia look good at the ruck

Not convinced they do

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Probably

I am pretty sure Billy will be out btw

Errrr......... how about the guy that performed pretty well there today after Billy went off????

Or as we are in a very Bomber sort of side, ............ Wood

I thought Harrison was passably ok. Certainly not great

Cumbrian wrote:Mind you,  watching the Wallabies now and they aren't filling me with dread.

I agree - Ireland are looking by far the better team so far.

World rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.

Scottrf wrote:World rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.

England and Ireland both very good. Other teams on a bit of a downward trend at the moment. Even NZ. NZ still the best but they only have to be better than Oz and SA to stay there - for now.

If we keep on winning I wonder at what point people will start to look at England players and use that terrible 'world class' label.

Next week is going to be the toughest game this year for us with all the players missing.

Australia starting to click against Ireland...

lostinwales wrote:

Scottrf wrote:World rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.

England and Ireland both very good. Other teams on a bit of a downward trend at the moment. Even NZ. NZ still the best but they only have to be better than Oz and SA to stay there - for now.

If we keep on winning I wonder at what point people will start to look at England players and use that terrible 'world class' label.

Come on, everybody knows England don't have world class players, we just keep winning...

Cumbrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Scottrf wrote:World rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.

England and Ireland both very good. Other teams on a bit of a downward trend at the moment. Even NZ. NZ still the best but they only have to be better than Oz and SA to stay there - for now.

If we keep on winning I wonder at what point people will start to look at England players and use that terrible 'world class' label.

Come on, everybody knows England don't have world class players,  we just keep winning...

Yeah - who cares about world class players as long as we keep winning. Havn't seen anything of the game yet but from what I have been reading I hope BS was watching May

Jonny May played the role of two wingers, he was good
It makes me angrier, Daly knew he was in the air, how could he not? People piss on about the heat of the battle and that but there isn't really an excuse. In all my years playing I never did that. Should be retired for the autumn.

Yes agreed, othersneed the chance to prove they won't let the side down.

It is a moot point actually because he will miss the Australia game anyway, but wingers should be on the wing and all that...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:If Billy is out we have to try Hughes. I think Robshaw and Wood do enough to make it viable as long as his carrying steps up to what we know it can be

True but it would mean that we need 8 cover on the bench. Beaumont?

Probably

I am pretty sure Billy will be out btw

Errrr......... how about the guy that performed pretty well there today after Billy went off????

Or as we are in a very Bomber sort of side, ............ Wood

I thought Harrison was passably ok. Certainly not great

Harrison had 10 tackles basically playing only the extended time in the first half and the second half.  Not bad.  he didn't set the world on fire, but once he settled in, he was fine.  We can win with him there (and we did - with 14 players). He will improve as time goes by.
_________________

stub wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Mind you,  watching the Wallabies now and they aren't filling me with dread.

I agree - Ireland are looking by far the better team so far.

So..........how did the Wallabies do this autumn?  England will be favourites to beat the Wallabies, as they should.  

Anyone hear any reports about Billy's knee?

Not heard owt but Billy looked pretty knackered.

lostinwales wrote:
If we keep on winning I wonder at what point people will start to look at England players and use that terrible 'world class' label.

World class is a much overused term, and England are far from the finished article. But win next week and they have completed an unbeaten year and beaten every top tier nation bar NZ, including Ireland, who have beaten NZ.

The rankings and pundits will still have NZ top, with good reason, but if England keep winning...

What a win for England one man down for most of the game and still won.

A year or so ago England would of lost that game being down to 14 men. Eddie Jones is building some team. He is installing alott of confidence in the squad.

Next week will be a tougher test for England. Australia will wan't revenge for the loss in the summer.

Lostinwales I did watch May - very impressive. If he plays like that more often then great. I thought he should have been named MOTM.

I just want players to play well.

Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.

The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam

For the record, who was the Man of the Match? I had to leave with 5 minutes to go because I was playing this afternoon.

Robshaw was doc.

And Eddie agreed when interviewed.

Thanks. And good for Robshaw. I am especially happy for him because of the way things ended for him after the RWC. Always a hard worker, a smart player, and one of the good guys. Maybe he shouldn't be captain, but that shouldn't diminish his rep as a player. He has been terrific under Eddie Jones.

Yes, it was good to see his efforts recognised. He most definitely is one of the good guys.

stub wrote:Yes, it was good to see his efforts recognised. He most definitely is one of the good guys.

Especially given his gesture after the game to a young fan. Top man

What's the Aussie scrum been like this autumn? I haven't had the chance to watch them but saw EJ trying to stir it up with some comments about meeting the referee to discuss it in advance. Would be great to get Sinckler on with a full half-hour to go at them. Aside from the physical side he brings, he runs such great lines onto flat passes and tackles everything.

I like Daly, he's been an asset to England. But that tackle was unforgivable. Against a top side that would have lost us the game. Quite apart from the danger to the Argie it was utterly brainless. I think there shouldn't be place in the England side for such a eejit and I hope he's put on the naughty step for a considerable time.

Robshaw, May & Billy - excellent.

The ref - out of his depth.