England v Argentina, 26 November
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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England v Argentina, 26 November
First topic message reminder :
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London
Live on Sky Sports 1
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)
A. Head to Head
19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282
B. Recent Form
9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England
15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England
8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England
10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England
14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England
13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina
6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England
11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina
C. Teams
ENGLAND
15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade
ARGENTINA
15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera
Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London
Live on Sky Sports 1
Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)
A. Head to Head
19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282
B. Recent Form
9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England
15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England
8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England
10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England
14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England
13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina
6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England
11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina
C. Teams
ENGLAND
15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola
Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade
ARGENTINA
15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera
Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles
Last edited by George Carlin on Fri 25 Nov 2016, 11:23 am; edited 2 times in total
George Carlin- Admin
- Posts : 15802
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Location : KSA
Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
I think the naughty step will be imposed on him for a little while by the relevant disciplinary committee anyway.
thomh- Posts : 1816
Join date : 2012-01-11
Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
I thought that the ref had a dreadful game. I thought he only made good decisions re Daly, the deliberate knock on and the England/Argentina yellow and red cards. He was not consistent.
I thought that there were some fantastic displays from both sides though. Creevy was nuggety and in everyone's face. Cordero was silky smooth and dangerous. May was everywhere and the forwards did very well for 75 minutes (we won't count the bit before half time).
A special "well done lad" to Kyle Sinkler. Amazing running, solid in the scrum and great tackling. I would like to see him starting games in the 6 Nations.
I thought that there were some fantastic displays from both sides though. Creevy was nuggety and in everyone's face. Cordero was silky smooth and dangerous. May was everywhere and the forwards did very well for 75 minutes (we won't count the bit before half time).
A special "well done lad" to Kyle Sinkler. Amazing running, solid in the scrum and great tackling. I would like to see him starting games in the 6 Nations.
Mr Bounce- Posts : 3513
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Location : East of Florida, West of Felixstowe
Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.
The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
France based on today i guessExiledinborders wrote:Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.
The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Age : 35
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
They were 0 for 3 against France in their own put in. Not sure about today, looked betterthomh wrote:What's the Aussie scrum been like this autumn? I haven't had the chance to watch them but saw EJ trying to stir it up with some comments about meeting the referee to discuss it in advance. Would be great to get Sinckler on with a full half-hour to go at them. Aside from the physical side he brings, he runs such great lines onto flat passes and tackles everything.
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Just watched the highlights. Sinckler could turn into some player. He came into the scrum at the worst possible time and yes we did give up the try but he looked OK. As for his work in the loose - its the kind of stuff legends are made of.
Only thing worth adding that although May's try was a run in made by smart passing by Ford, Wood and especially JJ, the pace he has means that the run in's can start a long way from the line...
So next week the no.8 position will be hard to fill, but somehow I think we'll be ready for 'Straalia'
Only thing worth adding that although May's try was a run in made by smart passing by Ford, Wood and especially JJ, the pace he has means that the run in's can start a long way from the line...
So next week the no.8 position will be hard to fill, but somehow I think we'll be ready for 'Straalia'
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Sinckler has looked excellent. His set-piece work has improved a lot since he started working with Rowntree. A familiar sentence that!
He's improved his set-piece and work rate whilst keeping that aggression and impact in contact. It is the rare combination for a prop, so many lose a bit of edge in the loose after getting more solid in the scrum. Whether his set-piece is yet good enough to survive starting in international will still be in question. The Argentina tour in the summer will be an excellent test of that though.
He's improved his set-piece and work rate whilst keeping that aggression and impact in contact. It is the rare combination for a prop, so many lose a bit of edge in the loose after getting more solid in the scrum. Whether his set-piece is yet good enough to survive starting in international will still be in question. The Argentina tour in the summer will be an excellent test of that though.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
king_carlos wrote:Sinckler has looked excellent. His set-piece work has improved a lot since he started working with Rowntree. A familiar sentence that!
He's improved his set-piece and work rate whilst keeping that aggression and impact in contact. It is the rare combination for a prop, so many lose a bit of edge in the loose after getting more solid in the scrum. Whether his set-piece is yet good enough to survive starting in international will still be in question. The Argentina tour in the summer will be an excellent test of that though.
Rowntree but also I think Adam Jones deserves some credit!
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Surely he won't get a ban as it was accidental - or does that only apply if you're wearing a black shirt?thomh wrote:I think the naughty step will be imposed on him for a little while by the relevant disciplinary committee anyway.
Heaf- Posts : 7122
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Exiledinborders wrote:Assuming England and Ireland can win who are the third team?Gwlad wrote:Congrats England. Should beat Aus but they'll come back hard and so far from the paucity of quality i have seen this term, i expect their backs are they only ones can give England a test. For England they are only really going to know where they are by playing NZ asap.
The next 6 Nations ought to be very close with 2 standouts, at least 3 teams capable of winning and 3 looking very close to each other in terms of the progress they have made this Autumn. England should win but with Ireland at home to England in the final game it should go down to the wire and i dont expect a slam
I do not see much to choose between France, Wales and Scotland.
Wales.
Gwlad- Posts : 4224
Join date : 2014-12-04
Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
I said before during and saying after...may showed why he was chosen over Roko!
But England showed some serious spirit and fitness and strength endurance to beat that side today m..even though I thought Argentina weren't the best side.
Next week will be a good test.
But England showed some serious spirit and fitness and strength endurance to beat that side today m..even though I thought Argentina weren't the best side.
Next week will be a good test.
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
And whilst I was hugely critical early doors of Harrison, his close in tackling and ruck / breakdown and clearing work was very good indeed. His tackling caused 2 Turnovers! That I can remember.
But I still think he's lightweight...
But I still think he's lightweight...
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
If England were to play NZ next week i'm curious what first choice side would be at this point?
Gwlad- Posts : 4224
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Daly should be very well rested for next Saturday.........
doctor_grey- Posts : 12350
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Gwlad wrote:If England were to play NZ next week i'm curious what first choice side would be at this point?
With the injuries, nobody knows. Not sure Who will come in for billy v
nathan- Posts : 11033
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Hughes and Clifford are next in line for Billy, but both injured....Hughes will be back first I'm sure.
Harrison I think is one of those good club players that doesn't quite have what it takes at international level. No shame in that.
6N confidence will come down to injuries. If we have our touring side back then I'm pretty confident of it going to an Ireland showdown last game. That squad would give NZ a good game.
Harrison I think is one of those good club players that doesn't quite have what it takes at international level. No shame in that.
6N confidence will come down to injuries. If we have our touring side back then I'm pretty confident of it going to an Ireland showdown last game. That squad would give NZ a good game.
mid_gen- Posts : 469
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
You got that right, World Rugby must have instructed their referees to penalise Southern Hemisphere teams on a 4:1 basis in this windowScottrf wrote:World Rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.
Guest- Guest
Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
I have never been that impressed by Harrison and he certainly is not an eight.mid_gen wrote:Hughes and Clifford are next in line for Billy, but both injured....Hughes will be back first I'm sure.
Harrison I think is one of those good club players that doesn't quite have what it takes at international level. No shame in that.
6N confidence will come down to injuries. If we have our touring side back then I'm pretty confident of it going to an Ireland showdown last game. That squad would give NZ a good game.
If Hughes and Clifford are both out who is next? Either Morgan or Waldrom although not long term options would do a job.
Exiledinborders- Posts : 1645
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Who has been training with England and can step in at Number 8?
doctor_grey- Posts : 12350
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Clifford is actually starting for Quins today, which is encouraging but probably not enough for him to be ready for Oz. Not sure about Hughes.
Morgan, Beaumont and Baby Chisholm are probably next in line
Morgan, Beaumont and Baby Chisholm are probably next in line
Poorfour- Posts : 6428
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Morgan and beumont both been training with England right?
rozakthegoon- Posts : 102
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
I hope this is the making of daly. A big psychological hit to the kid. Depending how he is handled and how he handles it himself, could positively shape his character and maturity going forward
rozakthegoon- Posts : 102
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Get Synkler in at no8!
He would be fricking A.Mazing!
Far too early back for Clifford and he's never going to be an Int 8 unless his power game can improve dramatically.
He would be fricking A.Mazing!
Far too early back for Clifford and he's never going to be an Int 8 unless his power game can improve dramatically.
Last edited by yappysnap on Sun 27 Nov 2016, 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
yappysnap- Posts : 11993
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Only the teams who are dirty. Obviously.ebop wrote:You got that right, World Rugby must have instructed their referees to penalise Southern Hemisphere teams on a 4:1 basis in this windowScottrf wrote:World Rugby has shifted pretty sharply in favour of the Northern Hemisphere since the World Cup.
George Carlin- Admin
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Yappy, that is probably not as daft as you think, with a bit of practice and time .................. He has everything that you would want in an 8, except positional sense and the ability to control the ball going backwards or forwards in the scrum. Size 9/10. Tackling, 9/10. Acceleration off the mark, 8/10. Ball handling ,7/10. Could be a Billy Mk. 2.
In my imagination................. 6 Billy V, 7 The Brand, 8 The Kitchen Synk (well the yanks had a refrigerator). Who the hell would want to face a backrow like that
Mind you the way things are going with English qualified 8s, I am thinking of going out to buy a pair of boots, I could be next in line..................................................
In my imagination................. 6 Billy V, 7 The Brand, 8 The Kitchen Synk (well the yanks had a refrigerator). Who the hell would want to face a backrow like that
Mind you the way things are going with English qualified 8s, I am thinking of going out to buy a pair of boots, I could be next in line..................................................
WELL-PAST-IT- Posts : 3744
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Well, two good 8s starting for Quins now. Clifford and Chisholm let's see how they go
mid_gen- Posts : 469
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Both looking decent, think Morgan is ahead right now, don't rush Clifford back or Chis in!
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Just saw a rumor that Billy will miss the 6N. Not exactly surprising but still ... *sigh...
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
doctor_grey wrote:Who has been training with England and can step in at Number 8?
Morgan and Beaumont have been training with the squad and are starting at 8 for their clubs today.
Beaumont is viewed more as a lock by EJ though.
I'm not sure what Hughes knock was, he's not playing for Wasps today but if he's fit for the weekend I'd presume he will start at 8 against Oz.
Attwood was back with Bath today so I hope he comes in ahead of Ewels on the bench for Saturday.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Full 80 minutes and MotM for Clifford.
mid_gen- Posts : 469
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Eddie Jones was at the Quins match watching as well so it won't have escaped his attention.
I can't see Clifford starting with Robshaw and Wood playing well but it isn't out of possibility that he'd be called onto the bench ahead of Harrison. Jones didn't hesitate with bringing Kruis back after injury and he seems to really rate Clifford.
I can't see Clifford starting with Robshaw and Wood playing well but it isn't out of possibility that he'd be called onto the bench ahead of Harrison. Jones didn't hesitate with bringing Kruis back after injury and he seems to really rate Clifford.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Still don't think Clifford is ready to step up to International rugby yet
yappysnap- Posts : 11993
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
As a flanker he is yappy. Not as an 8 though, certainly not without significant changes in how our pack plays.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Clifford could play 8 off the bench with Sinckler and maybe Teo on the pitch, I wouldn't start him there though
ChequeredJersey- Posts : 18707
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
We need a carrying option from 8 for the balance of the pack. Hughes is the natural choice, if not Morgan imo.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Well didn't think we stood a prayer after 6 mins of that but what a performance. Yes there were a few dodgy moments and Harrison initially struggled but overall well done! Sad for Daly, sure he'll feel like *~£% but these things happen, let alone for a stand in winger. For me the pick of them were Wood, Robshaw and May, who really stepped forward due to the nature of how they had to play. Hughes will probvably come in for Vunipola but if he's not fit I think Jones may well turn to Clifford at 8.
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
A massive performance by the whole team. To beat Argentina with 14 men was a great achievement. May was everywhere both in defence and attack. Sad for big Billy. Morgan and Hughes will fight it out for the No8 spot I think. Clifford will be in there or thereabouts too. Morgan has international experience on his side.
englandglory4ever- Posts : 1635
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Once again brown looks fantastic until he doesn't pass/mistimes a pass.
rozakthegoon- Posts : 102
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
You not think the pass to Vunipola was mainly the fault of Vunipola? Looked a decent pass to me, the stretch later on was a bit unfortunate. Yes it's not his main strength but not a blatent weakness on Saturday?
No 7&1/2- Posts : 31381
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Do we know what Billy did? Was it knee ligaments..ie ACL?
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
GeordieFalcon wrote:Do we know what Billy did? Was it knee ligaments..ie ACL?
Cartilage. Someone mentioned he has had an operation already. Its on the Beeb anyway
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.
I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.
lostinwales- lostinwales
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
No 7&1/2 wrote:For me the pick of them were Wood, Robshaw and May, who really stepped forward due to the nature of how they had to play.
The situation was ideal for guys with known high work rates (ie Robwood) to shine. The work Jonny May put in was phenomenal, the kind of display that will endear him to the England coaching staff and raise the interest of our friends in Barnet.
LondonTiger- Moderator
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Wont happen LT, BS doesnt rate him.
Sgt_Pooly- Posts : 36294
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Sgt Poorly you must have missed my comment when I said May well played well. I gave credit where credit was due. If May keeps playing like that then I will be pleased.
My opinion is not set in stone, if a player starts performing well, I will praise them.
My opinion is not set in stone, if a player starts performing well, I will praise them.
beshocked- Posts : 14849
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
lostinwales wrote:GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.
I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.
Very true.
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
lostinwales wrote:GeordieFalcon wrote:Ah well that's a doddle compared to the far more serious Cruciate injuries.
I just hope its not the start of one of those injury cycles and that he can get back to full fitness quickly. He's turning into a very special player.
Sarries will be less tempted to rush such a key player back as quickly as some might. The depth to their squad and ability to keep winning through structure whilst missing key players takes a bit of pressure off having their best XV on the field for all the big games.
They are also very good at peaking for the play-offs and knockout phases.
The start of March when is due back will be the Anglo-Welsh cup semis and final which Sarries may well be involved in but Billy would unlikely have been in if not injured. As it stands it could be used to get him game time, or more realistically he'll return at the back end of March which will give him a good 4 months off.
king_carlos- Posts : 12766
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
We shouldn't be rushing anyone back Carlos.
Manu, Billy....I wouldn't have rushed Kruis back (despite him playing very well)
Whilst I like Eddie keeping a selection consistency, we have numerous players which means players should not be risked.
For Billy, we have Nathan Hughes (pretty inexperienced at this level, but a beast) and Ben Morgan who we know has played some great games for England.
No need to rush him.
Manu, Billy....I wouldn't have rushed Kruis back (despite him playing very well)
Whilst I like Eddie keeping a selection consistency, we have numerous players which means players should not be risked.
For Billy, we have Nathan Hughes (pretty inexperienced at this level, but a beast) and Ben Morgan who we know has played some great games for England.
No need to rush him.
Geordie- Posts : 28896
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Re: England v Argentina, 26 November
Daly banned for 3 weeks.
mid_gen- Posts : 469
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