England v Argentina, 26 November

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

A. Head to Head

19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282

B. Recent Form

9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England

15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England

8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England

10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England

14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England

13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina

6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England

11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina

C. Teams

ENGLAND 

15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade

ARGENTINA

15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera

Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles

Poorfour wrote:Tim Swiel (EQP through his mother) is starting to look good at Quins,  too. Need to see if he can sustain it over a season but could be an outside bet for honours longer term.

He was shockingly poor on Sunday when he came on.

LondonTiger wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Tim Swiel (EQP through his mother) is starting to look good at Quins,  too. Need to see if he can sustain it over a season but could be an outside bet for honours longer term.

He was shockingly poor on Sunday when he came on.

I don't think Quins played that badly on Sunday, but they did undo everything good they did by gifting Tigers field position every time they got within sight of the try line. I didn't notice Swiel playing notably worse than anyone else on the team; but generally he's played well this season.

OFF TOPIC BIT:

Quins are also short of 3 first choice props, a first choice hooker, most of our locks, 4 back rows (we had a hooker playing there on Sunday), a scrum half, a fly half, 4 centres, and a fullback through injury, internationals and suspension. A team from our current absentees would read:

Marler - Buchanan - Sinckler
Merrick - Twomey (and now Horwill)
Robshaw - Luamanu - Clifford
Care - Jackson
[OK on wingers] Roberts - Lowe [OK on wingers]
Brown

with Lambert, Talei, Sloan and Hopper to stock the bench.

The two missed penalty kicks to touch almost as soon as he came on stood out for me, allied to standing really deep and shipping on garbage ball. Tigers were lucky that Quins were so short on first choice players, as we were not good.

Back to the topic at hand - feel a little for Roku, but shows Jones ruthless streak. Not overly comfortable about shoe-horning players into a spot just to include them, but Daly has so far done all that is asked of him. Argentina will look to target our defence round the fringes more, and will be looking to offload a lot. We need to see a lot more physicality in the tackle, especially from Harrison if he plays as again he looked willing but under-powered last week.

Poorfour wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Or LOzowski at 10 a bit later on

And Theo Brophy-Clews a little after that.

Tim Swiel (EQP through his mother) is starting to look good at Quins, too. Need to see if he can sustain it over a season but could be an outside bet for honours longer term.

Going off topic a bit, but he isn't just qualified through his mother, he was born in Taunton.

I’ve been a bit disappointed with Argentina in the games I have seen so far this Autumn. I thought that they would really click this time because they get a lot more time together as part of the Jaguares. They have seemed a little flat and clueless to me. Of course this is where they turn up and put a flawless performance against England! That aside, I think if they play well England should fairly comfortably have the measure of them.

You say they have been flat and clueless but have given both Wales and Scotland a run for their money. I can't see England having that comfortable a game, particularly if Argentina play well. I do expect us to win on home soil, but we definitely need to turn up and perform. One thing Argentina are likely to have is more consistency of selection, due to their smaller player pool. I think there is always the temptation with England because of the large player pool to rotate too many players, just have a look at another combination, have a look at the next bright thing - rather than go with some consistency.

nlpnlp wrote:You say they have been flat and clueless but have given both Wales and Scotland a run for their money.   I can't see England having that comfortable a game, particularly if Argentina play well.  I do expect us to win on home soil, but we definitely need to turn up and perform.  One thing Argentina are likely to have is more consistency of selection, due to their smaller player pool.  I think there is always the temptation with England because of the large player pool to rotate too many players, just have a look at another combination, have a look at the next bright thing - rather than go with some consistency.

In the past yes...but in general under Eddie where possible he has played a very strict selection process. The core of the squad is always the same (barring injuries), with newbies getting a chance here and there.

nlpnlp wrote:You say they have been flat and clueless but have given both Wales and Scotland a run for their money.   I can't see England having that comfortable a game, particularly if Argentina play well.  I do expect us to win on home soil, but we definitely need to turn up and perform.  One thing Argentina are likely to have is more consistency of selection, due to their smaller player pool.  I think there is always the temptation with England because of the large player pool to rotate too many players, just have a look at another combination, have a look at the next bright thing - rather than go with some consistency.

Giving Wales a game is no particular bench mark at the moment. Scotland are improving I would still say that playing a team that can give them a game but still lose is hardly frightening though. I am not saying that England just have to turn up and win, but I fully expect to win by more than a score. If I bet on it, I will go for around 10-15 point victory.

Under previous regimes, I would agree this would be a massive trap game. Coaches and players going in over-confident. Then a few hard runs by the opponent and England would be on the back foot for the rest of the game. Eddie seems to have the team focused on the job at hand and nothing more. So hopefully we see another solid professional performance and a win.

Arg got zilch chance here, but I believe Aus have a good shot at getting revenge. That's a massive game to end the AI series on.

doctor_grey wrote:Under previous regimes, I would agree this would be a massive trap game. Coaches and players going in over-confident.  Then a few hard runs by the opponent and England would be on the back foot for the rest of the game.  Eddie seems to have the team focused on the job at hand and nothing more.   So hopefully we see another solid professional performance and a win.  

Agree...and I think the added factor of letting 3 tries in and a poor 10 minutes before and after half time v Fiji will still be ringing in the players ears!

Having seen some of the tackles by the NZ players that have been let off disciplinary action...im even more gutted that Launchbury has been banned for nothing!

One rule for one...and different rules for a certain other team I think!

nlpnlp wrote:You say they have been flat and clueless but have given both Wales and Scotland a run for their money.   I can't see England having that comfortable a game, particularly if Argentina play well.  I do expect us to win on home soil, but we definitely need to turn up and perform.  One thing Argentina are likely to have is more consistency of selection, due to their smaller player pool.  I think there is always the temptation with England because of the large player pool to rotate too many players, just have a look at another combination, have a look at the next bright thing - rather than go with some consistency.

We hear this every time we play them ( ditto Scotland) .

At some point it will come off for them, but if you looked at the relative strength and recent performances of the sides you wouldnt want to stake much on even odds that this would be the game it happens.

Its only Beshocked whos constantly looking to shuffle englands players. Most of the changes that have happened have been down to injuries to first choices, Jones has bene fairly consitent in his sleections and the core group of players hes devleoping. Where he has made changes its because he thinks that player is more likley to be a long term solution ( eg Daly who hes been big upping well before he was actually selected to play).

I dont think rotation for the sake of it or to " give someone a go" is Jones' style. Players load does need managing though, especially props. Where there is real strength and two players with roughly equal claim to the starting shirt then rotation is fine. Where it causes a fundamental shift to the make up of the team ( eg resting for and having a lump 12) that I would see as problematic and counter beneficial to the development of the team.

I agree that historicaly there has been a lot of chopping and changing and a lack of consitency. both short and long term, and players dumped or injured unable to get back in due to the hundreds of flavour of the month performers who queue jumped ahead of them. Occassionaly though (as with Englands locks currently) its just as well we have a deep pool of players with regular premiership rugby. As Geordie said I think its aone area that Jone shas done well in managing to keep a core squad , intergarting a small number of new players where theres weaknesses and also utilising experienced players ( eg Wood) from outside that as stop gaps. We've seen Lancaster ditch everyone then regret it, and Johnson bemona the lack of a 50 cap cavalry when the kids/secodn string failed. This time theres been a fairly smooth transition and devlopment. Maybe an element of good fortune in how that situation has presented itself but Jones has made the best of it.

So yep no changes for changes sake, but I dont see that as something Jones does.

England:

Mike Brown, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Jamie George, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Charlie Ewels, Teimana Harrison, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Henry Slade

Terrible team.

Interesting no Hughes. I would have expected him to be on the bench as an impact player.

Otherwise (messing around at 7 excepted) pretty much as expected with Roko and Goode sent home, and Launchbury 'having a short holiday'.

Be good to see Slade get on the pitch

Odd, Hughes is sitting.  I would have expected his bulk to be especially useful as a replacement.  Will be interesting when/if Slade and Te'o get on.

Didn't Hughes have a knock of some sort? Could be that. Other than that, team as expected. Interesting to see Daly kept on the wing, shows that Jones is keen to get him and Joseph on the pitch at the same time, which I think is a good thing.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Didn't Hughes have a knock of some sort? Could be that. Other than that, team as expected. Interesting to see Daly kept on the wing, shows that Jones is keen to get him and Joseph on the pitch at the same time, which I think is a good thing.

They have complementary skill sets. Both quick - Daly looking great in open spaces and Joseph finding space where there should be none.

uncle_nigel wrote:England:

Mike Brown, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Jamie George, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Charlie Ewels, Teimana Harrison, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Henry Slade

Terrible team.

HOw so?

According to the beeb Hughes has a leg injury

GeordieFalcon wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:England:

Mike Brown, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Jamie George, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Charlie Ewels, Teimana Harrison, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Henry Slade

Terrible team.

HOw so?

I think (hope) he's being ironic...

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:England:

Mike Brown, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Jamie George, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Charlie Ewels, Teimana Harrison, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Henry Slade

Terrible team.

HOw so?

I think (hope) he's being ironic...

The team has 17 wins on the bounce for god sake.

uncle_nigel wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:England:

Mike Brown, Jonny May, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Jamie George, Joe Marler, Kyle Sinckler, Charlie Ewels, Teimana Harrison, Danny Care, Ben Te'o, Henry Slade

Terrible team.

HOw so?

I think (hope) he's being ironic...

The team has 17 wins on the bounce for god sake.

Only 11 so far that I can think of

12 isn't it?

My mistake, but still pretty good.

Moral vicotrs over Wales in the world cup (1-1 on tries and we wouldve won in extra time)
The Austrlian game is best forgotten
Warm up loss to France was really a friendly and shouldnt count as a full cap international given the players selected

That indeed makes it 17 on the bounce since they chose to lose the Grand Slam decider in 2015.

No 7&1/2 wrote:12 isn't it?

Yes I was trying to remember if it was this year when the 2nd string smashed Wales before the summer tours.

1 Uraguay at the RWC
5 2016 6nations
1 summer game vs Wales
3 Oz tour games
2 Autumn AI so far...

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:12 isn't it?

Yes I was trying to remember if it was this year when the 2nd string smashed Wales before the summer tours.

1 Uraguay at the RWC
5 2016 6nations
1 summer game vs Wales
3 Oz tour games
2 Autumn AI so far...

I understand the RFU have a large and comprehensive team which has been investigating this recently. They actually identified a technicality, so the RWC didn't really happen, and consequently, the losses didn't really happen either. And that strategic loss in the previous Six Nations didn't happen either.

Conclusion is England have been really good for a long time and have the record for most consecutive wins.

The don't but Win the next 2 plus 6N Grand Slam and that will be 19!!!!

tazfalklands wrote:The don't but Win the next 2 plus 6N Grand Slam and that will be 19!!!!

Big ask!

No step too great for this team during the Jones era whilst playing the Lancaster-way.

uncle_nigel wrote:No step too great for this team during the Jones era whilst playing the Lancaster-way.

Almost. Team was built by Lancaster but the cutting edge is all Jones..

lostinwales wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:No step too great for this team during the Jones era whilst playing the Lancaster-way.

Almost. Team was built by Lancaster but the cutting edge is all Saracens..

I agree.

uncle_nigel wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:No step too great for this team during the Jones era whilst playing the Lancaster-way.

Almost. Team was built by Lancaster but the cutting edge is all Saracens..

I agree.

Is England over the salary cap, too?

I see in other forums they're all spitting their dummy out over Roko being dropped and May being included.

I think May is a good winger with the potential to be a very very good international winger.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see in other forums they're all spitting their dummy out over Roko being dropped and May being included.  

I think May is a good winger with the potential to be a very very good international winger.

Oh I definitely think that May currently offers more to England. But Roko did a lot of good vs Fiji and he's a great back up to have. I think there is room for improvement.

It will be interesting to see who the first choice wings will be come the 6N (assuming everyone fit). Have to assume Watson will be one if he's fit, but I wouldn't be surprised to see May on the other side, Brown at FB and Daly on the bench (no Nowell). Outside chance of Watson and Daly on the wings or even Daly at FB. A nice problem to have

See I've always thought of Nowell as being better then Watson and May, not as quick but sturdier and better at finding his way to the line. No idea if the stats back that up. It's interesting now that he could miss out completely.

Also got to think Wades chances are gone, EJ likes big guys and Wade will always be deemed too small.

Yes a real shame for Wadey but good for Wasps.

If a prerequisite for a wing is to be good in the air Watson, Rocko,Daly & Nowell would be ahead of May.
Pure gas then Nowell would lose out but he has other qualities.
I just think (biased yes) Daly has it all & a thunderbolt foot to.
Although I think he may end up being first choice fb post Brown & ej will leave Watson on the wing?

Well if Brown is injured early doors we may get to find out if Daly is still any use back there.

Im more and more coming round to the idea of Daly at FB. I'd like to see him settled in there for Wasps.

yappysnap wrote:See I've always thought of Nowell as being better then Watson and May, not as quick but sturdier and better at finding his way to the line. No idea if the stats back that up. It's interesting now that he could miss out completely.

Also got to think Wades chances are gone, EJ likes big guys and Wade will always be deemed too small.

I think Nowell is fantastic. Just personally I think the only winger who is certain of playing is Watson

Over 40 caps per man on average in the starting XV. Average age of the XV is under 27.

We're getting some good experience and consistency even taking into account injuries and a bit of tweaking. One of the real plus points of Eddie's tenure so far is players coming in and out pretty seamlessly (including off the bench). In some ways our scrum probably improves with substitutions in the front row.

It'll be interesting how well Kruis goes after a bit of time out (he should complement Lawes well). Looking forward to seeing Daly on the wing again.

One thing about Eddie is I just trust him to make the right decisions for individual games, while also having a bit of an eye on the future. I might go into games a bit nervous, but not worried any more!

You start to see the big difference when you can switch one or 2 positions and have that core experience to help people through. Makes life so much easier for coaches.

I think Lancaster deserves a huge amount of praise for that.

He might not have been able to take it on to the next level, but he put in place a lot of what Jones is making the most of now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Lancaster deserves a huge amount of praise for that.

He might not have been able to take it on to the next level, but he put in place a lot of what Jones is making the most of now.

Definitely. In terms of coaching (and 'staleness' of regimes) some set-ups reach a ceiling. Eddie definitely inherited a good core, both in terms of the squad and the wider English set-up and it appears he was just the guy to come in and help it reach its potential. It's often difficult to know how much influence individual coaches have but Gustard and Borthwick seem a really good fit too. It'll be interesting to see if and when Eddie goes for a dedicated, full-time backs coach.

I don't know what others are feeling about the 12 shirt, but I'm starting to see the Ford/Farrell axis as less of a stop-gap and more of a permanent thing. They complement each other really well and Farrell is, again, starting to expand his game. It obvious helps with the kicking situation. Slade and Te'o on the bench makes things interesting though.

With Daly's versatility we have plenty of options.

Honestly thought Farrell was well below par on saturday so still that stop gap for Slade and then Mallinder coming through. Looks more likely Te'o is being lined up short to medium term though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Honestly thought Farrell was well below par on saturday so still that stop gap for Slade and then Mallinder coming through. Looks more likely Te'o is being lined up short to medium term though?

Really? I thought he had a good game. Not stellar (and not quite up to his usual standards with the boot) but did well enough. I don't think he's had a bad game during Eddie's reign. Mind you, not many players have!

Tuilagi looks like he's making his latest comeback tonight. Assuming he gets back to form and full fitness it'll be interesting to see if Eddie considers him for the 6Ns (and at 12 or 13?).

Yeah, missing tackles (going too high), started well with the nice little pass to Joseph but then let the game pass him by.

To be fair though the games was won after twenty min so easy to drift through.

Attack is all about George Ford. He really does seem to make things happen. Farrell almost seems to be Ford's minder (and the kicker). His distribution is pretty good but its more about the combination than the individuals.

I don't think we' see Te'o starting unless one of Ford or Farrell is injured (or a horses for course pick) but I can see him being around as a game changing substitute until/unless Manu gets back to full fitness.

The intelligent use of the subs bench one of the real joys of the current regime.

He's allowed a below par game, he's played exceptionally well there all year.

Yes some of the others may prove better in the long run but right now he's the best we have