Lions 2017

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Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

uncle_nigel wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Which 15.... NH...is the finished article with nothing to work on or be careful about?

Liam Williams, and Leigh Halfpenny.

Is this your true fan with both eyes open opinion?

Halfpenny has been well established since 2011. Liam Williams did so the same year but for his club. He established himself as a force from 15 when in NZ.

That wasn't the question

majesticimperialman wrote:I do think/believe that if Warburton goes on the Lions tour He will be captain.

Gatland love's him.

no chance. Gatland might be predictable on a lot of things but he also can mix it up with the best of them e.g. BOD. We all expect Sam to be Capt and I expect he will be in contention but won't be the skipper. Its just too obvious. For me the only thing in his favor is that Best is better than Hartley who isn't guaranteed to start.

I think we all know there isn't a skipper in the backs and therefore it will be one of the following:

Best, Hartley, Gethin, AWJ, Warburton.

I think it will be AWJ.

Gethin? Really?

I reckon either Owen Farrell or Jonathan Sexton to be captain.

Pot Hale wrote:I reckon either Owen Farrell or Jonathan Sexton to be captain.

Sexton is too easily broken. Farrell is an outside chance as he's probably got a better chance of being a starter in one of his positions than anyone else who's been mentioned.

Gethin isn't the best loosehead in these isles by quite a long chalk these days. I would have thought that Mako is one of the most secure names on the teamsheet unless the coaches want to prioritise scrummaging over everything else.

Is Warburton really a viable choice? At 7 he's not as good as Tipuric, at 6 he's contending with Stander, Robshaw, SOB and others. And there's no guarantee he'd be fit.

AWJ might be the best option for a captain on the basis that he's durable and at least one of the leading players in his position. But it would mean restricting your selection options against the current best second row pairing in the world.

What's the weakest element of the All Blacks' play? It's probably their front row. Certainly, the Lions will be able to field a better 6 front row players than the ABs, though the starters are likely to be pretty even. I think you could play either Best or Hartley and have the Lions hold their own. So perhaps Gatland should look at his likely starting props and pick whichever would go better with them as captain. George on the bench, though.

Pot Hale wrote:I reckon either Owen Farrell or Jonathan Sexton to be captain.

There is a major doubt whether Sexton will make the tour, let alone captain it if you listen to what Gatland had to say yesterday. If I was Sexton I'd forget it - basically he questioned that if he wasn't starting tests would he disrupt the team.

Gatland is a disgrace.

Personally pick a team first. Worry about the captain later

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I reckon either Owen Farrell or Jonathan Sexton to be captain.

There is a major doubt whether Sexton will make the tour, let alone captain it if you listen to what Gatland had to say yesterday. If I was Sexton I'd forget it - basically he questioned that if he wasn't starting tests would he disrupt the team.

Gatland is a disgrace.

Thanks for the heads-up on that Sin.  I hadn't read what Gatland had to say.  Now that I have ....very interesting.  It's easy to read too much into things, but I just go ahead and read plenty into things    I read more needless jabbing from Gatland who could have just started off with a nice bland unifying speech but chooses to bite.  
"A couple of other players have done alright for Ireland."  
"If you come into a Lions situation, if someone is playing well, you might not be going back into that starting side as a 10, you might be sitting on the bench or not involved. How are you going to be able to handle that? Are you going to be prepared for that? What's your attitude around the team and squad going to be like?"

Yeah, Sexton is a disruptive force within the structcha, having led his team to a 40-29 win over the World Champs - and Irish players so far are just alright.  And we all know what he's alluding to   Don't Gats ever get over things?

carpet baboon wrote:Personally pick a team first. Worry about the captain later

disagree.

Farrell dont make me laugh

This is the Lions not just any tour. the captain sets the tone; he has to be guaranteed to play if fit, hence why i think Hartley may not be.

He also has to be highly experienced both as a Lion and a skipper. I know people think Jonno proves the exception but he was a freak and perfectly abrasive to deal with the Boks.

This capt has to be someone the NZ will respect. There is a dearth of leadership experience in the backs hence why it has to be a forward.

QED; Best/Hartley, AWJ Sam or Gethin.

Gethin isn't a guaranteed starter, nor Sam, but Best and AWJ are IMO.

AWJ is a winning lion skipper. Try and forget he's Welsh for those who struggle with the Lions concept.

If AWJ is guaranteed to start then we're doomed to fail from the start.

Sin é wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I reckon either Owen Farrell or Jonathan Sexton to be captain.

There is a major doubt whether Sexton will make the tour, let alone captain it if you listen to what Gatland had to say yesterday. If I was Sexton I'd forget it - basically he questioned that if he wasn't starting tests would he disrupt the team.

Gatland is a disgrace.

No, he just retired BOD that's all and good job he did.

I want Sexton to start, i imagine most supporters feel it is his shirt to lose, but he is on the downward slope now. He was epic v NZ but the game was still won after he left the field. I can't imagine Sexton won't tour but Gtaland is doing the right thing to make players earn it even if they are regarded as the heir apparent.

Ford has to be right up there as a contender, as does Farrell. But an on form Sexton will not only tour but could make all the difference on test day.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If AWJ is guaranteed to start then we're doomed to fail from the start.

You're right, why would we want a player with his experience, including as a winning Lion skipper, to lead the Lions against NZ.

And lets not forget he is Welsh, that more than anything is why we shouldn't give him the captaincy right.

My suggestion is those people who are incapable of putting their concerns about the national origin of the captain and make up of the Lions squad shouldn't bother following it. Unlike Sir Clive, Gatland has shown he can make the hard decisions when necessary and i expect he will do it again this time. AWJ might not be the best lock at the moment but as a lion and a skipper who is also a lock, he is matchless.

It has nothing to do with being Welsh and it's getting boring seeing that put forward as justification.

He's not the best lock or even one of the four best locks so shouldn't even be going less being the captain, the captain should be someone there on merit instead of cronyism. If he starts ahead of Itoje, Kruis, Gray or Toner then there is something wrong.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It has nothing to do with being Welsh and it's getting boring seeing that put forward as justification.

He's not the best lock or even one of the four best locks so shouldn't even be going less being the captain, the captain should be someone there on merit instead of cronyism. If he starts ahead of Itoje, Kruis, Gray or Toner then there is something wrong.

Absolute rubbish. You clearly know nothing about AWJ. HE IS A WINNING LIONS CAPT AND A SUPERB LOCK. Gtaland has said he needs experienced people in his coaching team for continuity and I'm pretty sure he needs them on the pitch too.

And your anti cronyism argument relies on him being Welsh

And no mention of Launchbury who is by far the most consistent of the English locks.  

Itoje has 7 caPs and has never toured and is currently injured but you'd pick him over AWJ. Thanks Stewie for that. He's potentially a great player but if that's your plan for a Test starter v NZ on a Lions tour in their back yard then i'll take cronyism thanks

Kruis, again potentially a great. 20 caps but a better pick than AWJ. Ridiculous.

Gray. 60 cpas and a Lion. Perfect partner for AWJ.

Toner. Highly experienced and massive. Definitley should tour.

AWJ 111 Caps, 2 Lions tours, one as winning captain.

I'd be happy with AWJ and either Launchbury, Toner or Gray.

I think you've got your Gray's mixed up there which negates your whole point really, AWJ having more caps than the others is irrelevant when they're all better than him, being a winning captain is irrelevant for the same reason.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I think you've got your Gray's mixed up there which negates your whole point really, AWJ having more caps than the others is irrelevant when they're all better than him, being a winning captain is irrelevant for the same reason.

You can't be that obtuse on purpose?! Being a winning captain of a Lions tour is irrelevant? Yeah i guess the same could be said for the coach too

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

These are all good players but they aren't ready and AWJ offers much more than any of them as a Lions lock.

Who did Gatalnd turn to to win the last test after Sam got crocked? AWJ. Did he deliver? Yes, with bells on. What has Itoje or Kruis or Gray got to draw on?

Its evident the only cronyism is in your clear dismissal of the only guy who is qualified to skipper the Lions from lock. I suspect that is rooted in a deep seated anti Welsh sentiment that was evident across this board when Gatland brought home the bacon last time.

I'm not suggesting any of the locks are qualified to captain the Lions and it is irrelevant when it was a one off, don't make it out to be more than it was, he owes Corbisiero a great deal of gratitude.

The point with the Grays was how you looked at his number of caps and decided he was a good fit despite not being good enough, i'd rather a team capable of winning were picked rather than ones who have previous experience.

Players get 100 plus cpas because they are rugby legends. AWJ is one. He is also a former winning Lions Captain but according to you players with 7 and 20 caps are better options. One of whom is injured. Absurd.
You think being the a one off winning lions capt is 'irrelevant' too though so i should nt be surpsied. You've clearly got no grasp of what the Lions is.
You've seen Maro Itoje play 7 games and you think he is a better bet. Just plain nonsense.
And you don't even mention Launchbury who is by far the most consistent of England's 2nd rows.

Greenwood and Quinnell both pick Itoje/Kruis so maybe not that daft.

Some say it's possible to have seen Itoje play more than 7 times...

In June. As a pair based on last years form. And Hartley being hooker. And AWJ is in 3rd spot for both.

i'm not saying Itoje couldn't do a wonderful job- I'd pick kruis first- but there is no way either are a better package for this job than AWJ.

A mixture of Irish & English players + Hogg at FB to start with & possibly Liam Williams pushing for a wing slot.
This would be the 'form' team right now. Talk of captains now is fanciful.

Gwlad wrote:

No, he just retired BOD that's all and good job he did.

Well that was the plan, yes.  The final piece in his obsessional jigsaw of total war against the IRFU.  'I Warren Gatland retired your demi-god - with a bunch of world humiliation to boot.  We're now quits.  Never cross me - I'll always get even.'

Of course, Joe Schmidt just yawned and ignored Gatland's Edict from the Lions Throne.  The following Spring, Gatland - miffed that BOD was still an International after him proving he wasn't good enough no more - tried to retire BOD a second time but nearly retired the Welsh hitman Scott Williams instead.

It's why I love Rugby - the epic, memorable dramas.  

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:A mixture of Irish & English players + Hogg at FB to start with & possibly Liam Williams pushing for a wing slot.
This would be the 'form' team right now. Talk of captains now is fanciful.

Likely unless Gatland does what Clive Woodward did in 05, unlikely. But Tipuric Warburton Faletau and Halfpenny will all be knocking hard. North and JD2 if finds form in spring.

As for the captaincy, its an issue. Talk of captains on an imminent Lions tour on a rugby forum hardly fanciful. There a few candidates with the necessary qualifications. The best candidate isn't irish or English, thats the problem.

Only in Wales is he Welsh either

Well if it's a winning captain your after gwlad who is respected and has lots of caps it has to be Best then, as he's the only home nations captain to have beaten NZ.

carpet baboon wrote:Well if it's a winning captain your after gwlad who is respected and has lots of caps it has to be Best then, as he's the only home nations captain to have beaten NZ.

No issues with Best or Hartley though i think Hartley has done well as England skipper i do feel he may be more likely to be provoked in NZ. For me Best edges it on selection though i am aware he has had issues with Gats before so i end up with AWJ.

It has to be a tight 5 for me- Warburton just isn't up to it. The cupboard is quite bare for skipper material.

My preference for AWJ is because of his winning Lions experience coupled with his work rate

BamBam wrote:Only in Wales is he Welsh either

There you go again, get over it. He's the only candidate with any experience as a winning lions captain. Kind of gives him an edge. Same criteria applied in selecting the head coach, though we know there is the same sulking about that…..even though Gatland is the only winning coach in 20 years.

I'd go for AWJ as tour captain, but Gatland has ignored him as Wales captain in favour of Warburton. I can't see how he would make him Lions captain.

Gatland doesn't like Best, so he is out. That leaves Warburton and Hartley. I can't see Warburton leading what would mainly be English/Irish Lions team, so I'd give it to Harley or an English player anyway as they should have the biggest contingent of players.

By the way, did I hear right when I heard that Townsend was offered the role of Howley's assistant?

Selection will be in a lot of cases like lock be about the style Gatland wants to play.

Much as I can't stand the man I would have Hartley as captain.  Its been the making of him being England captain.  He is as close as anyone is to being a sure pick. His captincy has been one of the factors in englands improvement and he manages refs as well as anyone I have seen. Still can't stand him tho ;-)

Can't remember who it was now who posted that J Gray was outplayed in the last calcutta cup match.  I suggest you go and look at the stats.  Ickle Jonny was far more involved in the game than either of the english locks IIRC

Quite honestly tho I would be happy for no scots to go.  Given Gatlands previous he will not want to play the sort of game that the scots players are used to playing.  AS soon as Gatland was announced as coach I really lost much of my interest in the lions as I do not believe he will play the right selection and tactics to beat the all blacks

Sin gats hasn't ignored AWJ anymore than he's ignored Gethin Jenkins. He chose Sam and then backed him and Sam's relationship with refs is second to none….but he has always used Gethin and AWJ as back up skippers, not least in 2013. Fact is Sam is like glass and is currently 2nd best to Tipuric. He isn't even assured a start at 7 for Wales when fit.

TJ can it be true, Scotland has the answer to beating the Blacks….is it hidden under their kilts?

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

Sin é wrote:I'd go for AWJ as tour captain, but Gatland has ignored him as Wales captain in favour of Warburton. I can't see how he would make him Lions captain.

Gatland doesn't like Best, so he is out. That leaves Warburton and Hartley. I can't see Warburton leading what would mainly be English/Irish Lions team, so I'd give it to Harley or an English player anyway as they should have the biggest contingent of players.

By the way, did I hear right when I heard that Townsend was offered the role of Howley's assistant?

Id go for AWJ as tour captain too as I think he would have everyone's respect however, it will be Warburton as he is a lovely fellow when it comes to media duties. Hartley is second favourite because he is a Kiwi and Gatland favoured Kiwis on the last tour.

Best is probably the best captain available but on previous tours his throwing has been off and he wouldnt be rated that highly outside of Ireland.

As others have said, I don't believe Gatland has a high opinion of Best, but he does like Hartley. It's all a bit early this anyway, most of the selection will be based on the 6 nations I reckon.

Still question why Gatland needs the sabbatical as we all know he'll lean heavily on 1 or 2 performances from the upcoming 6Ns.

I wouldn't call any position nailed on and that's why I think it's difficult to choose the captain.

People say Hartley but I still don't think he's the best hooker in England, he's picked primarily for his leadership but is it enough?

AWJ is in a similar position, he's a good player but there are plenty of options in the 2nd row.

In my opinion Warburton has a better chance of being captain simply because the 7 options are less competitive.

Gwlad wrote:Players get 100 plus cpas because they are rugby legends. AWJ is one. He is also a former winning Lions Captain but according to you players with 7 and 20 caps are better options. One of whom is injured. Absurd.
You think being the a one off winning lions capt is 'irrelevant' too though so i should nt be surpsied. You've clearly got no grasp of what the Lions is.
You've seen Maro Itoje play 7 games and you think he is a better bet. Just plain nonsense.
And you don't even mention Launchbury who is by far the most consistent of England's 2nd rows.

Well, if number of caps is the criterion, then isn't it obvious? Jason Leonard must tour and be captain.

Measuring things purely by the number of caps is ridiculous. AWJ has been a very good player for a long time; that doesn't necessarily mean he is the best player at any point in time. To go back to the Funbus, Woodward started the RWC Final with Woodman and Vickery, who most people would agree were better players than Leonard at that moment (though not, it turns out, Andre Watson).

Richie McCaw was plucked from club rugby after a single season, and displaced far more senior and experienced players both as 7 and, shortly thereafter, as captain. I think we can safely say that he was a better player than those that came before him, despite the fact that when he started he had no caps at all.

Number of caps is a measure of how good you've been. Once you have a few, it's a pretty good predictor of how good you're likely to be in your next match. The more caps, the stronger the evidence. But that doesn't mean that someone with only a few caps can't still be better.

AWJ played very well on the last Lions tour and seems to play better for the Lions than Wales, whether he is one of the best 4/5 locks or where he sits within the pecking order at the moment is difficult judge.  Obviously the up and coming 6N's should be a dress rehearsal/trial for who will be selected, though of course it might be easier to impress in a more fancied team.

Having said that it would seem best to first of all pick the best players in each position for the Lions squad, then worry about who should be captain.  Injuries also might have an impact on who would be available.

I am not sure we will beat NZ without our best players on the field, so make that the first priority.

For example George may come across as a better player than Hartley.

beshocked wrote:I wouldn't call any position nailed on and that's why I think it's difficult to choose the captain.

People say Hartley but I still don't think he's the best hooker in England, he's picked primarily for his leadership but is it enough?

AWJ is in a similar position, he's a good player but there are plenty of options in the 2nd row.

In my opinion Warburton has a better chance of being captain simply because the 7 options are less competitive.

Id say Sean O'Brien and Josh Van Der Flier are both better 7s than Warburton now. Itoje also plays 7 and is also better. Not sure how you can say it isnt competitive.

Granted I know Oghenemaro Itoje plays lock most of the time for England.

Against NZ, O'Brien showed enough for him to be my leading contender for the 7 jersey.

He is provides a physical threat that above that of Warburton, and can still get over the ball. JVDF also looked very good in that series.

Not my cup of tea but you would also have to consider Haskell.

JDVF definitely got the better of his NZ counterparts in the Chicago and Dublin test and the Australia game. I think he should be part of the conversation alright.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not my cup of tea but you would also have to consider Haskell.

What is his best position though? Is he more a squad player because he can cover flanker and 8?

I wouldn't even take Warburton on tour, personally, so I find the calls for him to be captain a little odd.

I'd go for Hartley.

I'd take AWJ, and I rate him highly, but I'd wait to see how he and other locks such as Kruis, Itoje, Toney, Gray, etc. play on tour first. See how do they play together, gel together, form a unit. Then I'd decide who will be in the test team. If it happens to be AWJ and Toner then so be it. Kruis and Itoje, fair enough too.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:I wouldn't call any position nailed on and that's why I think it's difficult to choose the captain.

People say Hartley but I still don't think he's the best hooker in England, he's picked primarily for his leadership but is it enough?

AWJ is in a similar position, he's a good player but there are plenty of options in the 2nd row.

In my opinion Warburton has a better chance of being captain simply because the 7 options are less competitive.

Id say Sean O'Brien and Josh Van Der Flier are both better 7s than Warburton now. Itoje also plays 7 and is also better. Not sure how you can say it isnt competitive.

Granted I know Oghenemaro Itoje plays lock most of the time for England.

Itoje isn't a 7. He has a great skill set, but he was only being viewed as a potential replacement for Haskell and doing Haskell's job of hitting anything that moves. (Then he bust his hand). There are big questions about Haskell being a 7 too, but he was fantastic in the role that EJ gave him

Well he has played there and could be an option to cover that position on tour.

Not 100% sure, but do not believe Itoje has ever played 7 in a game.

LondonTiger wrote:Not 100% sure, but do not believe Itoje has ever played 7 in a game.

What about his first game for England against Italy. Pretty sure that was at 7.

I don't think so. He has only played at lock or 6 and Eddie Jones considered him as an emergency option at 7 in the November tour when all of their flankers started dropping like flies.

There is something strange to me about 6 foot 5 monsters playing at openside flanker...the biggest I can think of is Schalk Burger.

He played back row but with robshaw then Clifford. He could probably play there but I think he's going to be picked at 6 for the Lions.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Not 100% sure, but do not believe Itoje has ever played 7 in a game.

What about his first game for England against Italy. Pretty sure that was at 7.

He replaced Haskell who was at 7. But as above he's not a conventional 7 in any way. (In fact I believe he effectively went to 6 and Robshaw went to 7)