Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

A fit Sean O'Brien will start at 7 anyway. He may be disliked by a few fans on here (Cyril) but the truth is he is one of the few players the SH press and players seem to rate and talk about with a great degree of respect.

It will be interesting to see if Josh van der Flier continues to shine, though.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Not 100% sure, but do not believe Itoje has ever played 7 in a game.

What about his first game for England against Italy. Pretty sure that was at 7.

He replaced Haskell who was at 7. But as above he's not a conventional 7 in any way. (In fact I believe he effectively went to 6 and Robshaw went to 7)

Fair enough.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:A fit Sean O'Brien will start at 7 anyway. He may be disliked by a few fans on here (Cyril) but the truth is he is one of the few players the SH press and players seem to rate and talk about with a great degree of respect.

It will be interesting to see if Josh van der Flier continues to shine, though.

I get what you're saying but really who cares who the SH press rates. They are usually fairly clueless.

The players, more importantly, seem to rate him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The players, more importantly, seem to rate him.

O'Brien is a fantastic player when fit and on form. Not convinced he's as robust these days as he used to be but if he comes through the 6N in one piece he should be in pole position.

lostinwales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The players, more importantly, seem to rate him.

O'Brien is a fantastic player when fit and on form. Not convinced he's as robust these days as he used to be but if he comes through the 6N in one piece he should be in pole position.

That is his problem. He is far too injury prone. Aside from that, he is the complete package really. Probably the best 7 over the ball after David Pocock. When he first came onto the scene he was criticised as a 7 for his lack of ability on the ground and promoted as a 6/8 for his explosive carrying. The hard work has certainly paid off.

Slightly off-topic, but I see the biggest criticism against JvdF is his lack of strength over the ball. Hopefully he can progress in the same way SOB has. If he can do it this year, he will be on the plane.

Who were the openside options last time round? SOB and Warburton? Anyone else?

Tipuric was in the squad too I think

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The players, more importantly, seem to rate him.

O'Brien is a fantastic player when fit and on form. Not convinced he's as robust these days as he used to be but if he comes through the 6N in one piece he should be in pole position.

That is his problem. He is far too injury prone. Aside from that, he is the complete package really. Probably the best 7 over the ball after David Pocock. When he first came onto the scene he was criticised as a 7 for his lack of ability on the ground and promoted as a 6/8 for his explosive carrying. The hard work has certainly paid off.

Slightly off-topic, but I see the biggest criticism against JvdF is his lack of strength over the ball. Hopefully he can progress in the same way SOB has. If he can do it this year, he will be on the plane.

Who were the openside options last time round? SOB and Warburton? Anyone else?

Tipuric

Tipuric is probably in pole position unless Warburton is selected as captain. Stander arguably in pole as 6 with SOB if fit as utility back row.

But it would be great to see Gatland take a genuine mix of the best players from across the isles and see what combinations emerge. As I said last time around, if Robshaw travels I would not be at all surprised to see him force his way into the test team. But I am not holding my breath.

I would probably suggest picking the squad, team and captain in that order.  Obviously performance in the 6N's should have a strong bearing.

All things being equal I cannot really think of a single player who is absolutely guaranteed a starting place in the Test XV.  There are players who perhaps are in pole position but few certainties.

Poorfour wrote:Tipuric is probably in pole position unless Warburton is selected as captain. Stander arguably in pole as 6 with SOB if fit as utility back row.

But it would be great to see Gatland take a genuine mix of the best players from across the isles and see what combinations emerge. As I said last time around, if Robshaw travels I would not be at all surprised to see him force his way into the test team. But I am not holding my breath.

All depends on the gameplan really, I would go

6. Robshaw
7. O'Brien
8. Vunipola

But Falateu, Stander, Haskell, Tipuric, Warburton, FDV and even Itoje are options.

I also think Moriaty is a very good young player.

I did forget about Moriarty, strongest options I can ever remember but all about finding the right blend.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Tipuric is probably in pole position unless Warburton is selected as captain. Stander arguably in pole as 6 with SOB if fit as utility back row.

But it would be great to see Gatland take a genuine mix of the best players from across the isles and see what combinations emerge. As I said last time around, if Robshaw travels I would not be at all surprised to see him force his way into the test team. But I am not holding my breath.

All depends on the gameplan really, I would go

6. Robshaw
7. O'Brien
8. Vunipola

But Falateu, Stander, Haskell, Tipuric, Warburton, FDV and even Itoje are options.

The problem with that back row is that it lacks a really good line-out option.

I wouldn't rule out Peter O'Mahony forcing his way back into the Ireland team at 6 and onto that Lions plane either. He would certainly fill in the line-out role in the back row.

Gwlad wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If AWJ is guaranteed to start then we're doomed to fail from the start.

You're right, why would we want a player with his experience, including as a winning Lion skipper, to lead the Lions against NZ.

And lets not forget he is Welsh, that more than anything is why we shouldn't give him the captaincy right.

My suggestion is those people who are incapable of putting their concerns about the national origin of the captain and make up of the Lions squad shouldn't bother following it. Unlike Sir Clive, Gatland has shown he can make the hard decisions when necessary and i expect he will do it again this time. AWJ might not be the best lock at the moment but as a lion and a skipper who is also a lock, he is matchless.

SecretFly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

No, he just retired BOD that's all and good job he did.

Well that was the plan, yes.  The final piece in his obsessional jigsaw of total war against the IRFU.  'I Warren Gatland retired your demi-god - with a bunch of world humiliation to boot.  We're now quits.  Never cross me - I'll always get even.'

Of course, Joe Schmidt just yawned and ignored Gatland's Edict from the Lions Throne.  The following Spring, Gatland - miffed that BOD was still an International after him proving he wasn't good enough no more - tried to retire BOD a second time but nearly retired the Welsh hitman Scott Williams instead.

It's why I love Rugby - the epic, memorable dramas.  

Epic saga

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

But you're okay with the ongoing ludicrous comments touting Kruis and Itjoe to start at lock?

It looks like we all agree on one thing; There is so much competition for places!

I'd argue that at present there is no player guaranteed to start, that's why picking a tour captain makes a lot of sense!

I also think that all of the mentioned candidates are flawed in that they have been on the receiving end of NZ spankings before. My head at the moment says Hartley. Not sure if his NZ heritage is a bonus or a drawback?

My wildcard - Maro Itoje. IMHO is pretty much a shoe-in for a place in either the 2nd Row or Backrow. He's never lost against NZ, is a natural leader, will be respected by NZ, has won a World Championship in NZ and will also be a surprise and unknown for the kiwis.

Another slightly leftfield choice would be Sexton or Farrell! I'm not convinced Sexton will be 1st choice though. E Jones speaks very highly of Farrell and how he leads by example.

What's ludicrous about anyone suggesting Itoje and Kruis to start?

Bazzer79 wrote:It looks like we all agree on one thing; There is so much competition for places!

I'd argue that at present there is no player guaranteed to start, that's why picking a tour captain makes a lot of sense!

I also think that all of the mentioned candidates are flawed in that they have been on the receiving end of NZ spankings before. My head at the moment says Hartley. Not sure if his NZ heritage is a bonus or a drawback?

My wildcard - Maro Itoje. IMHO is pretty much a shoe-in for a place in either the 2nd Row or Backrow. He's never lost against NZ, is a natural leader, will be respected by NZ, has won a World Championship in NZ and will also be a surprise and unknown for the kiwis.

Another slightly leftfield choice would be Sexton or Farrell! I'm not convinced Sexton will be 1st choice though. E Jones speaks very highly of Farrell and how he leads by example.

Not saying I disagree about Itoje - He doesn't seem to have limits. But I am not sure how he will be respected and yet also a surprise and unknown...

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's ludicrous about anyone suggesting Itoje and Kruis to start?

I don't think they're so ludicrous, but surely if saying AWJ can start at this point is ludicrous, then surely stating that Kruis and Itoje (which is what all the English are saying) will start is also ludicrous; especially when one is currently injured. That English lock pairing however, is a proven combo and if they continue through the upcoming 6N as the best locks like last season then that would be the only time I would leave out Wonder-AWJ from the starting team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's ludicrous about anyone suggesting Itoje and Kruis to start?

Crazy isn't it. Good enough for the best team in the Northern Hemisphere and probable first choice for #2 team in the world but 'nonsense' 'ludicrous' etc.

I'm not sure why experience beating Australia 2-1 choosing from 4 countries is such a good thing anyway. England as one country beat them 3-0 in one test series this year, 4-0 overall.

I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

uncle_nigel wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's ludicrous about anyone suggesting Itoje and Kruis to start?

I don't think they're so ludicrous, but surely if saying AWJ can start at this point is ludicrous, then surely stating that Kruis and Itoje (which is what all the English are saying) will start is also ludicrous; especially when one is currently injured. That English lock pairing however, is a proven combo and if they continue through the upcoming 6N as the best locks like last season then that would be the only time I would leave out Wonder-AWJ from the starting team.

I think anyone saying that any lock is a definite starter isn't correct, I thought you were saying that anyone saying that's who they would start was a ludicrous statement.

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

I think you need to have a scroll back through this thread with both eyes open then, Bam .

By the way... WE KNOW the English dislike AWJ because he's welsh and we also know the Scottish dislike him because he's better than both the Gray's. Move on people.

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

Im Irish and Id have him as tour captain, same with Siné.

I think that's borderline racist nige.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

Im Irish and Id have him as tour captain, same with Siné.

Both eyes now Bam, remember? Both eyes... Wouldn't want you to miss anything from under that rock of yours!

Who else got banned recently?

uncle_nigel wrote:

But you're okay with the ongoing ludicrous comments touting Kruis and Itjoe to start at lock?

Not ludicrous at all. I don't agree but then its an opinion but many folk would have those two as the best locks around.

True, I'll change it.

uncle_nigel wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

I think you need to have a scroll back through this thread with both eyes open then, Bam .

By the way... WE KNOW the English dislike AWJ because he's welsh and we also know the Scottish dislike him because he's better than both the Gray's. Move on people.

Now that is just simple rubbish. Going to get yourself banned again?

These are all very good locks we are talking about with not a lot between them but some are better in one area than another. AJW has experience but he is not the athelete the others are. Gray is the hardest working of the lot but a bit slow over the ground and too heavy to make a top lineout jumper, Itoje has the pace but not the experience

TJ wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

But you're okay with the ongoing ludicrous comments touting Kruis and Itjoe to start at lock?

Not ludicrous at all.  I don't agree but then its an opinion but many folk would have those two as the best locks around.  

They are probably the strongest partnership but not necessarily the best players for the job individually.

I missed his point on that one too. He wasn't saying those two were ludicrous picks. He was responding to someone else commenting on picking guaranteed lock starters being ludicrous at this point.

Obviously any picks at this point is an exercise in futility. But can be interesting.

Will get to see a few potential Lions at the Gardens tonight. Shame the balance is in favour of the opposition...

TJ wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

But you're okay with the ongoing ludicrous comments touting Kruis and Itjoe to start at lock?

Not ludicrous at all.  I don't agree but then its an opinion but many folk would have those two as the best locks around.  

I don't think it's so ludicrous, as I already said. I just thought that the poster who said AWJ as a starter at this point was ludicrous would also believe Kruis with an injured Itoje penned in as starters at this point is also ludicrous. He was a biased poster though.

TJ wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

I think you need to have a scroll back through this thread with both eyes open then, Bam .

By the way... WE KNOW the English dislike AWJ because he's welsh and we also know the Scottish dislike him because he's better than both the Gray's. Move on people.

Now that is just simple rubbish.  Going to get yourself banned again?

These are all very good locks we are talking about with not a lot between them but some are better in one area than another.  AJW has experience but he is not the athelete the others are.  Gray is the hardest working of the lot but a bit slow over the ground and too heavy  to make a top lineout jumper,  Itoje has the pace but not the experience

Banned for what?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's ludicrous about anyone suggesting Itoje and Kruis to start?

I don't think they're so ludicrous, but surely if saying AWJ can start at this point is ludicrous, then surely stating that Kruis and Itoje (which is what all the English are saying) will start is also ludicrous; especially when one is currently injured. That English lock pairing however, is a proven combo and if they continue through the upcoming 6N as the best locks like last season then that would be the only time I would leave out Wonder-AWJ from the starting team.

I think anyone saying that any lock is a definite starter isn't correct, I thought you were saying that anyone saying that's who they would start was a ludicrous statement.

Well said.

I can't argue with the fact that the English second row is perhaps the most accomplished in the Home Nations at the moment.

My preferred setup involves both Kruis and Itoje, but complemented by Jonny Gray - they're all such spectacular athletes.

I think we need to accept that of the five front-runners for the lock positions, one isn't going to make the plane, and one group of fans is going to get the hump. Remember that that poor rejected lock is almost certainly good enough to have started a test for the Lions in 2013. I mean, Geoff Parling started two tests, for Christ's sake.

So here's my lineup.
4. J Gray
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
19. Toner.

Or possibly
4. J Gray
5. Itoje
6. Stander
19. Kruis.

It's bloody tough, this.

Listened to a very interesting interview given by Clive Woodward recently re the 2005 tour. He was asked about picking players from other nations and said he was quite nervous about picking Welsh players because he felt Wales were not as disciplined and didn't strive for the professional standards he expected of his teams and he had heard stories of certain players being fairly hard to deal with.

However, regardless of all that he picked who he thought were the best ones. The first day the squad got together and he met some of the Welsh players he instantly regretted selecting a handful of them he said. He wanted to get rid of them but knew at that late stage he couldnt.

Well said IrnBru

lostinwales wrote:

Bazzer79 wrote:It looks like we all agree on one thing; There is so much competition for places!

I'd argue that at present there is no player guaranteed to start, that's why picking a tour captain makes a lot of sense!

I also think that all of the mentioned candidates are flawed in that they have been on the receiving end of NZ spankings before. My head at the moment says Hartley. Not sure if his NZ heritage is a bonus or a drawback?

My wildcard - Maro Itoje. IMHO is pretty much a shoe-in for a place in either the 2nd Row or Backrow. He's never lost against NZ, is a natural leader, will be respected by NZ, has won a World Championship in NZ and will also be a surprise and unknown for the kiwis.

Another slightly leftfield choice would be Sexton or Farrell! I'm not convinced Sexton will be 1st choice though. E Jones speaks very highly of Farrell and how he leads by example.

Not saying I disagree about Itoje - He doesn't seem to have limits. But I am not sure how he will be respected and yet also a surprise and unknown...

Respected for his ability and skill - he plays at a level that even the kiwis could admire - I'm not sure there are many players you could say that for??

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Listened to a very interesting interview given by Clive Woodward recently re the 2005 tour. He was asked about picking players from other nations and said he was quite nervous about picking Welsh players because he felt Wales were not as disciplined and didn't strive for the professional standards he expected of his teams and he had heard stories of certain players being fairly hard to deal with.

However, regardless of all that he picked who he thought were the best ones. The first day the squad got together and he met some of the Welsh players he instantly regretted selecting a handful of them he said. He wanted to get rid of them but knew at that late stage he couldnt.

Yet he made one of the hardest players to deal with his captain, when BOD got injured

RiscaGame wrote:

Yet he made one of the hardest players to deal with his captain, when BOD got injured

Was Gareth Thomas hard to deal with? Always thought he was easy going. in any case he arrived late for that tour because he was playing for Toulouse. So it cant be him.

I assumed Woodward was referring to Henson.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Yet he made one of the hardest players to deal with his captain, when BOD got injured

Was Gareth Thomas hard to deal with? Always thought he was easy going.

Well around that time, he was about to have a part in getting the Welsh coach sacked because of player power

Switching it around then even with an array of brilliant locks is that an area of strength for the Lions or given they're against Retallic and Whitelock even par? Is it more front and back row where we should be able to pressure?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

Im Irish and Id have him as tour captain, same with Siné.

Oh he can be tour captain, I'd compare that role to Alastair Campbell's

In terms of being on the field as one of the two best locks and a guaranteed starter, with both eyes open I only see the Welsh backing him

RiscaGame wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Yet he made one of the hardest players to deal with his captain, when BOD got injured

Was Gareth Thomas hard to deal with? Always thought he was easy going.

Well around that time, he was about to have a part in getting the Welsh coach sacked because of player power

The funny thing is that Woodward selected Grewcock who was a complete loose cannon and got sent home and banned for two months for biting Kevin Mealamu.

I like Woodward but always felt he was bit of a snob or a bit patonising or something.

BamBam wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

Im Irish and Id have him as tour captain, same with Siné.

Oh he can be tour captain, I'd compare that role to Alastair Campbell's

In terms of being on the field as one of the two best locks and a guaranteed starter, with both eyes open I only see the Welsh backing him

No I dont think its a done deal. If Hartley is picked as tour captain that Kruis and Itoje will start however, if Hartely doesnt start Gatland may go with AWJ and someone else Id imagine.

uncle_nigel wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

But you're okay with the ongoing ludicrous comments touting Kruis and Itjoe to start at lock?

Did you even read my post?

Suggest who you want, with that I have no issue. And how anyone's preference is ludicrous is beyond me.

But saying someone is nailed on and then belittling others about it, in a position as rich as lock???? That's ludicrous. Also as I mentioned before, not really in the spirit of the lions, is it?

If you really are dying to be offended and you want to believe I said picking AWJ is ludicrous, then I'm sorry to disappoint. I didn't and I don't.

I certainly wouldn't say either Itoje or Kruis are nailed on. Lock is very competitive, also injuries are bound to happen.

Launchbury and Lawes are both two very competitive locks too.

Then there's of course AWJ, Charteris too cannot be discounted, especially as he's Welsh, J.Gray, maybe Henerson or Toner etc.