Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

Sexton is the best 10 in the NH possibly the world but he's also the most targeted player on the planet and would echo Rodders sentiments that his body needs to recover.

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Warburton is miles off touring as a flanker right now. Maybe he'll make it, but right now he's not in the top 8 selectable flankers. He's not the best 6 or 7 in Wales right now!

No he is in the same position as everyone else, except Hartley who better go back to fly fishing. Look point is wherever anyone is now, the 6 Nations will determine who goes and who stays, bar a few exceptions e.g. Gethin who will go if fit. Yes AWJ and Warbs not best in rankings of who is on top form but there is MORE TO THIS THAN FORM…what else do players bring to the table for a touring side? I've toured with great players at my club who were fecking awful on even a 3 week tour. Take Cipriani for instance, everyone knows he's a wrong'un which is why he hasn't made it for England, but does he have something special for the touring side. AWJ and Sam do, its called EXPERIENCE on a winning Lions tour. And as Captains to boot.

So you really think Gethin will tour?

Riskysports wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Warburton is miles off touring as a flanker right now. Maybe he'll make it, but right now he's not in the top 8 selectable flankers. He's not the best 6 or 7 in Wales right now!

No he is in the same position as everyone else, except Hartley who better go back to fly fishing. Look point is wherever anyone is now, the 6 Nations will determine who goes and who stays, bar a few exceptions e.g. Gethin who will go if fit. Yes AWJ and Warbs not best in rankings of who is on top form but there is MORE TO THIS THAN FORM…what else do players bring to the table for a touring side? I've toured with great players at my club who were fecking awful on even a 3 week tour. Take Cipriani for instance, everyone knows he's a wrong'un which is why he hasn't made it for England, but does he have something special for the touring side. AWJ and Sam do, its called EXPERIENCE on a winning Lions tour. And as Captains to boot.

So you really think Gethin will tour?

I think Woody was criticised for similar selections in 2005

No idea why anyone would use games from 4 years ago to judge who should tour now.

Gwlad wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Warburton is miles off touring as a flanker right now. Maybe he'll make it, but right now he's not in the top 8 selectable flankers. He's not the best 6 or 7 in Wales right now!

No he is in the same position as everyone else, except Hartley who better go back to fly fishing. Look point is wherever anyone is now, the 6 Nations will determine who goes and who stays, bar a few exceptions e.g. Gethin who will go if fit. Yes AWJ and Warbs not best in rankings of who is on top form but there is MORE TO THIS THAN FORM…what else do players bring to the table for a touring side? I've toured with great players at my club who were fecking awful on even a 3 week tour. Take Cipriani for instance, everyone knows he's a wrong'un which is why he hasn't made it for England, but does he have something special for the touring side. AWJ and Sam do, its called EXPERIENCE on a winning Lions tour. And as Captains to boot.

This isn't some backwater Welsh mining town rugby club tour to the south of France, where getting inebriated is just as important as producing wins. This isn't the Methyr Tyfil 3rd XVs biannual tour.

This is a British & Irish Lions tour to New Zealand. Where you are going to have arguably 2 teams stacked full of some of the best players in the world playing in front of millions around the world. A vast majority of these players will see this as the highest honour they will possibly achieve in their test match careers.

I know nothing about the man so I'll use this as an example only:

Johnny Gray might be a total prat. Rude, obnoxious, arrogant and preening. However if he meaningfully contributes to the rugby on tour and makes the difference in a test match that results in victory for the Lions I seriously couldn't care less about if he makes the tour fecking awful for his team mates.

P.S. Johnny Gray has come over nothing but nice, polite and humble in any interview I have seen him participate in but felt it would be safer to use him as opposed to any other player in case I offended someones surrogate sainted mother.

At the moment I would pick a team mostly of English and Irish. No it's not because I hate Welsh or Scots. I just don't think they are performing as well.

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Furlong
4.Kruis
5.Launchbury
6.Itoje
7.SOB
8.Vunipola

9.Murray
10.Sexton
11.Zebo
12.Henshaw
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Hogg

16.Mcgrath
17.Best
18.Cole
19.J.Gray
20.Faletau
21.Youngs
22.Ford
23.Williams

Though it's likely to look more like this:

1.Jenkins
2.Best
3.Lee
4.AWJ (C)
5.J.Gray
6.Stander
7.Warburton
8.Faletau

9.Webb
10.Sexton
11.North
12.Farrell
13.Davies
14.Williams
15.Halfpenny

16.Vunipola
17.Hartley
18.Cole
19.Charteris
20.Stander
21.Youngs
22.Biggar
23.Watson

You surprise me beshocked, no Farrell and Hogg included?

Gethin Jenkins should be nowhere near a touring party, he's bloody awful in the scrum. My stab.....

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. CJ Stander
7. Hardie
8. Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Henshaw
13. JJ
14. North
15. Hogg

16. George 17. Furlong 18. Mako 19. Launchbury 20. Faletau 21. Murray 22. Sexton 23. Williams

I know not too many are confident of getting a result against NZ next year but how would this set of players (whoever you're all picking) stack up against the touring party from last time. Can't help feeling this set is a leap ahead myself.

So Glasgow turn over Racing92 in Paris, with terrific performances from Gray making 19 tackles and missing none and Finn Russel makes Dan Carter look quite ordinary but still don't make people's Lions teams.

Farrell played well but Sale were hopeless.

Can't exactly judge on 1 game Rugger. Russel is realistically the 4th best FH in the Lions selection. Gray will be there or there abouts but again, I think there's better options.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't exactly judge on 1 game Rugger. Russel is realistically the 4th best FH in the Lions selection. Gray will be there or there abouts but again, I think there's better options.  

I agree, probably behind Farrell, Ford and Sexton.

However Gray is frequently overlooked by English posters on here who can't see past Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje who are all fine players. I would say the only difference between those names and Johnny Gray is media coverage. Sky and the BBC love to fawn over these English guys.

Gray on the quiet captained his club, leading by example to turn over Racing92, in Paris, their first defeat for nearly a year. My opinion differs, there is no one better than Johnny Gray at the moment. He has equals, but there is no one better.

Russell needs to do it in a Scotland shirt, reminds me too much of a headless chicken at times.

He's an exciting 10 going forward but I would say his game management is the worst out of the likes of Ford,Farrell,Biggar and Sexton.

Scottish fans get excited because he's your best 10 in years but he still wouldn't get in the Irish,Welsh or English teams.

Mentally I don't think Russell is quite as strong. He's getting there but not there yet.


Gray is a very good player but he doesn't go out to destroy the opposition like Itoje IMO. Itoje steals your lineout, he bags turnovers and he carries well. He takes pressure off his own team and pours it onto the opposition. The media love Itoje because he's just that good.

Gray is a great and hard worker though to be fair. Itoje got 3 -4 lineout steals vs Sale. Saracens won all their lineouts.


no 7 & 1/2 I would have Hogg, he's in my XV. Farrell is a good player but I am just not sure where he would fit in. He's not exactly an impact player. If you pick Sexton at 10, you don't need a goal kicker at 12.

Sgt Pooly I think it would make a lot of sense to start Jamie George with his team mates from a lineout perspective.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't exactly judge on 1 game Rugger. Russel is realistically the 4th best FH in the Lions selection. Gray will be there or there abouts but again, I think there's better options.  

I agree, probably behind Farrell, Ford and Sexton.

However Gray is frequently overlooked by English posters on here who can't see past Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje who are all fine players. I would say the only difference between those names and Johnny Gray is media coverage. Sky and the BBC love to fawn over these English guys.

Gray on the quiet captained his club, leading by example to turn over Racing92, in Paris, their first defeat for nearly a year. My opinion differs, there is no one better than Johnny Gray at the moment. He has equals, but there is no one better.

There's an awful lot of fawning done over Gray as well, rightly so. His tackle stat is more repeated than the fact England won a world cup these days! And he's in my team to start with Launchbury.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't exactly judge on 1 game Rugger. Russel is realistically the 4th best FH in the Lions selection. Gray will be there or there abouts but again, I think there's better options.  

I agree, probably behind Farrell, Ford and Sexton.

However Gray is frequently overlooked by English posters on here who can't see past Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje who are all fine players. I would say the only difference between those names and Johnny Gray is media coverage. Sky and the BBC love to fawn over these English guys.

Gray on the quiet captained his club, leading by example to turn over Racing92, in Paris, their first defeat for nearly a year. My opinion differs, there is no one better than Johnny Gray at the moment. He has equals, but there is no one better.

I can't speak for the majority but I think Gray is exceptional. Ideally he's a 4, who'll play alongside a better line out option, in this case for me it's Kruis.

Is he better than Itoje? I don't think he is personally. Itoje is a bit special. He drives his team on, leads from the front. He wins turnovers, carries and steals ball for fun in the set piece.

I think Gray is up against Launchbury and I'd just have the Wasps man ahead at this stage in time. England are currently blessed with a number of outstanding locks that would get into many a side throughout the world and then there's Toner, Henderson and AWJ who are no slouches.

It's a fantastic area of quality for the Lions, it's a shame the flanks and centres aren't so strong.

I don't think a partnership of Launchbury and Gray would bring enough line out presence, especially against the AB's.

I think it would, Launchbury is leaps and bounds ahead of where he was 2 years ago. Plus my back row would have Itoje and Faletau at the moment.

I think the Flanks and centres are deceptively strong.

CJ Stander, Robshaw, Warburton, O'Brien, Watson, Barclay, Tipuric.

As for the centres Williams, Jones, Joseph, Farrell, Ringrose, Henshaw, Bennett, Dunbar,

It's not bad.

On paper IMO we have the players and quality to win the series. I do wonder if Howley (as attack coach) is the person to unlock all the talent and potential and get it to click in attack on the pitch. If you get the talented guys on the pitch and encourage them to play heads up stuff I think NZ can be beaten.

Lock is a very healthy position of strength for the Lions.

Oh and as for defeating Racing, Saracens have beaten them 4 different times in France and Belgium.....

Lyon,Nantes,Paris x 2 and Brussels

It's not that big of a deal.

no 7 & 1/2 you wouldn't pick Billy at 8?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it would, Launchbury is leaps and bounds ahead of where he was 2 years ago. Plus my back row would have Itoje and Faletau at the moment.

He's not awful but not a major leader either. Itoje would obviously help but I'd worry about our own ball without a top class operator.

Itoje is worth his weight in gold, three turnovers and four lineout steals is par for the course from him, give him enough time and he could easily play 6 or 7 just as well as the second row.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think the Flanks and centres are deceptively strong.

CJ Stander, Robshaw, Warburton, O'Brien, Watson, Barclay, Tipuric.

As for the centres Williams, Jones, Joseph, Farrell, Ringrose, Henshaw, Bennett, Dunbar,

It's not bad.

On paper IMO we have the players and quality to win the series. I do wonder if Howley (as attack coach) is the person to unlock all the talent and potential and get it to click in attack on the pitch. If you get the talented guys on the pitch and encourage them to play heads up stuff I think NZ can be beaten.

Stander and Joseph aside, I can't say I'm really that excited by any of those players Rugger. We may be lucky in NZ have no real settled combo as of yet. SBW coming back will really hinder that though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think the Flanks and centres are deceptively strong.

CJ Stander, Robshaw, Warburton, O'Brien, Watson, Barclay, Tipuric.

As for the centres Williams, Jones, Joseph, Farrell, Ringrose, Henshaw, Bennett, Dunbar,

It's not bad.

On paper IMO we have the players and quality to win the series. I do wonder if Howley (as attack coach) is the person to unlock all the talent and potential and get it to click in attack on the pitch. If you get the talented guys on the pitch and encourage them to play heads up stuff I think NZ can be beaten.

Stander and Joseph aside, I can't say I'm really that excited by any of those players Rugger. We may be lucky in NZ have no real settled combo as of yet. SBW coming back will really hinder that though.

Most of those guys had good games at the weekend. We can't ask for much more than that.

I'm not one for playing guys out of position, but Itoje at flank could be a master stroke. Especially in the lineout.

Itoje and Gray lifting Launchbury that's something like 14ft lineout lift.

beshocked wrote:Russell needs to do it in a Scotland shirt, reminds me too much of a headless chicken at times.

He's an exciting 10 going forward but I would say his game management is the worst out of the likes of Ford,Farrell,Biggar and Sexton.

Scottish fans get excited because he's your best 10 in years but he still wouldn't get in the Irish,Welsh or English teams.

Mentally I don't think Russell is quite as strong. He's getting there but not there yet.


Gray is a very good player but he doesn't go out to destroy the opposition like Itoje IMO. Itoje steals your lineout, he bags turnovers and he carries well. He takes pressure off his own team and pours it onto the opposition. The media love Itoje because he's just that good.

Gray is a great and hard worker though to be fair. Itoje got 3 -4 lineout steals vs Sale. Saracens won all their lineouts.


no 7 & 1/2 I would have Hogg, he's in my XV. Farrell is a good player but I am just not sure where he would fit in. He's not exactly an impact player. If you pick Sexton at 10, you don't need a goal kicker at 12.

Sgt Pooly I think it would make a lot of sense to start Jamie George with his team mates from a lineout perspective.

Dallaglio stated at the weekend that this was an area Itoje needed to work on.

Big fan of Gray, the amount of work he gets through is phenomenal, and it's always the nitty-gritty stuff (i.e. close carries, usually giving go-forward).

Agree with others that Itoje's a bit special. He's a complete nuisance to opposition ball either at line-out or rucks (aside from the turnovers, he's very good at getting his foot into a ruck to disrupt opposition ball), strong carrier, big tackler, etc. I think the Lions need to find a spot for him somewhere. Given the strength at lock, the team may actually be better off with him on the flank (though we also have some pretty strong options at flanker).

It certainly could happen. Also let's not forget Borthwick is famed as one of the best lineout operators in world rugby. Sure I know that might sound like hyperbole - the professor of the lineout really does have a good track record on lineouts though.

I was most impressed with the way Borthwick got the Japanese lineout running.

I think working with Borthwick could help J.Gray develop that area. I certainly don't think it's harmed any of the English locks.

I've been very, very impressed by Launchbury recently, both for England and Wasps (he had a brilliant game against Connacht on the weekend and probably should have been MotM rather than Beale).

His line-out is good, tackling, workrate, carrying and turnovers were all top-notch.

A very good, understated captain too.

Lock is a strong position but I think he's up there with the best at the moment.

beshocked wrote:It certainly could happen. Also let's not forget Borthwick is famed as one of the best lineout operators in world rugby. Sure I know that might sound like hyperbole - the professor of the lineout really does have a good track record on lineouts though.

I was most impressed with the way Borthwick got the Japanese lineout running.

I think working with Borthwick could help J.Gray develop that area. I certainly don't think it's harmed any of the English locks.

People forget that Johnny Gray runs the Glasgow and Scottish lineouts. It's not an area of weakness.

Although spending time with a guy like Borthwick would help anyone's lineout abilities tbh. For all his other faults he (Borthwick) runs a great lineout.

The 6N will be the acid test, and most likely the last chance some of these guys will have (unless their clubs do well in Europe) to "do one over" on their opposite numbers. There will be some tasty positional clashes to look forward to in the spring.

Interesting to see the various picks being identified on here.The problem is Gatland hasn't got a history of picking on form rather than fading or non-existent reputation and Howley understands neither form nor reputation.Notwithstanding,and on recent form,i could see an all Irish front row and back row and an all English second row.Given the ludicrous itinerary the Lions will need 2 teams worth of locks and I'd see all of Launchbury,Itoje,Kruis,Gray J,AWJ,Toner and Henderson touring.Both Itoje and Henderson have the added benefit of genuine back row competencies.Other than AWJ i'd only see Faletau,Liam W and possibly Rhys Webb as the Welsh contingent.Couldn't see Warburton and Tipuric(who merits selection) both touring but any belief that Warburton can physically survive a NZ tour is for the fairies.Bring on the 6N.All to play for in many respects.

Ruggerradge it was an area that cost Scotland a place in the semi finals of the RWC.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493 - according to this, the Welsh took your lineout apart in the 6 nations too.

In the 6 nations - 47 won, 8 lost for Scotland compared to England's 66 won, 6 lost.


England's lineout has strengthened since the RWC too. England's retention and stealing of lineouts IMO was pivotal to getting the GS.

Kruis stole 6 lineouts compared to AWJ,R.Gray and Toner's 2.

I think Scotland have a worse lineout than Ireland,England and Wales.

So what did J Gray do wrong in those then? Wrong calls? Mistakes himself in catching? Issues with other jumpers? Issues with the hookers?

beshocked wrote:Ruggerradge it was an area that cost Scotland a place in the semi finals of the RWC.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493 - according to this, the Welsh took your lineout apart in the 6 nations too.

In the 6 nations - 47 won, 8 lost for Scotland compared to England's 66 won, 6 lost.


England's lineout has strengthened since the RWC too. England's retention and stealing of lineouts IMO was pivotal to getting the GS.

Kruis stole 6 lineouts compared to AWJ,R.Gray and Toner's 2.

Nonsense. Scotland made a lot of errors in that game, sadly that lineout was the most public and the icing on the cake. Let's not even mention the incorrect call that resulted from it, that led to "that penalty" and led to Joubert running off the pitch like he had bad case of the texas ritters.

Scotland's lineout woes in that game and other games stem from the Hooker.

Ross Ford also doesn't have the most sterling reputation for accurate lineout throwing. Funnily enough though, a person you seem to detest does have immaculate lineout work, the England captain Dylan Hartley. England's lineout has improved a lot. In no small part from his accurate service.

Restarts for one is a failing in the scottish game. Our dealing with the restart has cost us more tries and points than any poor lineout.

The Scottish lineout is neither a strength or a weaknes, it's neutral in my book. It's not outstanding but it's far from dire.

As for the Wales game Charteris made a right mess of our lineout that day, but again failure to deal with restarts cost us far more points than a couple of stray lineouts.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't exactly judge on 1 game Rugger. Russel is realistically the 4th best FH in the Lions selection. Gray will be there or there abouts but again, I think there's better options.  

I agree, probably behind Farrell, Ford and Sexton.

However Gray is frequently overlooked by English posters on here who can't see past Kruis, Launchbury and Itoje who are all fine players. I would say the only difference between those names and Johnny Gray is media coverage. Sky and the BBC love to fawn over these English guys.

Gray on the quiet captained his club, leading by example to turn over Racing92, in Paris, their first defeat for nearly a year. My opinion differs, there is no one better than Johnny Gray at the moment. He has equals, but there is no one better.

French clubs that win the Top 14 one year, usually perform very poorly the following year which I think is due to the fact that they don't get a preseason (there is a mandatory 1 month break in France for teams). Any club involved in the Top 14 finals literally has a 2 week preseason because of the length of their season with playoffs etc.

Look lads, I'm only going to tell you this one more time :

01. Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02. Rory Best (Ireland)
03. Dan Cole (England)
04. Maro Itoje (England)
05. Jonny Gray (Scotland)
06. CJ Stander (Ireland)
07. Sean O'Brien (Ireland)
08. Billy Vunipola (England), if injured Toby Faletau (Wales)

09. Connor Murray (Ireland)
10. Owen Farrell (England)
11. George North (Wales)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Ireland)
13. Jonathan Joseph (England)
14. Liam Williams (Wales)
15. Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

16. Mako Vunipola (England)
17. Dylan Happy Slappy Hartley (England)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Ireland)
19. George Kruis (England)
20. Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
21. Ben Youngs (England)
22. Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
23. Anthony Watson (England)

beshocked wrote:Ruggerradge it was an area that cost Scotland a place in the semi finals of the RWC.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493 - according to this, the Welsh took your lineout apart in the 6 nations too.

In the 6 nations - 47 won, 8 lost for Scotland compared to England's 66 won, 6 lost.


England's lineout has strengthened since the RWC too. England's retention and stealing of lineouts IMO was pivotal to getting the GS.

Kruis stole 6 lineouts compared to AWJ,R.Gray and Toner's 2.

I think Scotland have a worse lineout than Ireland,England and Wales.

Toner rarely steals ball (too big and heavy to get up quickly). That's Peter O'Mahony's job for Ireland - one of the best defensive lineout jumpers in the world.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ruggerradge it was an area that cost Scotland a place in the semi finals of the RWC.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493 - according to this, the Welsh took your lineout apart in the 6 nations too.

In the 6 nations - 47 won, 8 lost for Scotland compared to England's 66 won, 6 lost.


England's lineout has strengthened since the RWC too. England's retention and stealing of lineouts IMO was pivotal to getting the GS.

Kruis stole 6 lineouts compared to AWJ,R.Gray and Toner's 2.

Nonsense. Scotland made a lot of errors in that game, sadly that lineout was the most public and the icing on the cake. Let's not even mention the incorrect call that resulted from it, that led to "that penalty" and led to Joubert running off the pitch like he had bad case of the texas ritters.

Scotland's lineout woes in that game and other games stem from the Hooker.

Ross Ford also doesn't have the most sterling reputation for accurate lineout throwing. Funnily enough though, a person you seem to detest does have immaculate lineout work, the England captain Dylan Hartley. England's lineout has improved a lot. In no small part from his accurate service.

Restarts for one is a failing in the scottish game. Our dealing with the restart has cost us more tries and points than any poor lineout.

The Scottish lineout is neither a strength or a weaknes, it's neutral in my book. It's not outstanding but it's far from dire.

As for the Wales game Charteris made a right mess of our lineout that day, but again failure to deal with restarts cost us far more points than a couple of stray lineouts.

That last lineout wasn't the only one Scotland lost. Though that was arguably the most important. I remember shouting at the screen - throw it to R.Gray!

It's not as if George's throwing has been bad.

Hartley's throwing in general has been good but winning a lineout is not just about the hooker, it's about other players too and the overall structure which Borthwick should get credit for.

No I don't think our improved lineout is down to Hartley alone. That's the problem - some people think Hartley is a one man team. He's been solid but he's not been one of the best performers in this England side. His importance has been elevated because he is the captain.

My criticisms of Hartley mainly stem from him not playing as well as George. I think George can do everything Hartley can do and extra. Plus I think Hartley's performances have been overrated.

Sin E Toner topped the lineout steals for Ireland.

George Carlin

I think North is in real danger of missing out - not just his concussion issues, he's just not performing.

Cole is another player who is being picked on reputation not form.

Sin é wrote:

beshocked wrote:Ruggerradge it was an area that cost Scotland a place in the semi finals of the RWC.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35643493 - according to this, the Welsh took your lineout apart in the 6 nations too.

In the 6 nations - 47 won, 8 lost for Scotland compared to England's 66 won, 6 lost.


England's lineout has strengthened since the RWC too. England's retention and stealing of lineouts IMO was pivotal to getting the GS.

Kruis stole 6 lineouts compared to AWJ,R.Gray and Toner's 2.

I think Scotland have a worse lineout than Ireland,England and Wales.

Toner rarely steals ball (too big and heavy to get up quickly). That's Peter O'Mahony's job for Ireland - one of the best defensive lineout jumpers in the world.

Peter O'Mahoney doesn't play for Ireland anymore though?? He cant get in the team.

George Carlin wrote:Look lads, I'm only going to tell you this one more time :

01. Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02. Rory Best (Ireland)
03. Dan Cole (England)
04. Maro Itoje (England)
05. Jonny Gray (Scotland)
06. CJ Stander (Ireland)
07. Sean O'Brien (Ireland)
08. Billy Vunipola (England), if injured Toby Faletau (Wales)

09. Connor Murray (Ireland)
10. Owen Farrell (England)
11. George North (Wales)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Ireland)
13. Jonathan Joseph (England)
14. Liam Williams (Wales)
15. Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

16. Mako Vunipola (England)
17. Dylan Happy Slappy Hartley (England)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Ireland)
19. George Kruis (England)
20. Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
21. Ben Youngs (England)
22. Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
23. Anthony Watson (England)

I agree with all that except for Owen Farrell. He doesnt play 10 for England so cant see him being starting 10. Its actually a really good side. The only other suggestion is possibly to swap North for Watson but that is a 50/50 one.

Farrell is a much better 10 than 12 so surely he comes into strong consideration?

beshocked have you been that impressed with Georges showings so far for England? He's been good coming from the bench when the games a bit more open and has got to scrummage next to a better LH than Hartley since the 6Ns along with it (although his scrummaging is his strong point). Has he shown enough in the AIs to be demanding a start? Think they've both been good not great?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Farrell is a much better 10 than 12 so surely he comes into strong consideration?

Not really if he doesn't play there. Jared Payne is a much better 15 than 13 but I dont think he would get picked at 15 for the Lions for example.

But we know he can play there, we know he's better there why would you limit yourself and discount him from his best position? Itoje doesn't play 6 for England but I think he'd do an outstanding job there for the Lions. We also know gatland doesn't mind playing people outside of their country's positions given Tuilagi at 12, Hogg at 10 (ok that last one was crazy!).

Farrell will be in the match day squad (form permitting).

Covers 10 and centre, either from the bench or starting XV.

I would start Sexton with Farrell on bench , but then I'm Irish

No 7&1/2 wrote:But we know he can play there, we know he's better there why would you limit yourself and discount him from his best position? Itoje doesn't play 6 for England but I think he'd do an outstanding job there for the Lions. We also know gatland doesn't mind playing people outside of their country's positions given Tuilagi at 12, Hogg at 10 (ok that last one was crazy!).

If he is so good there why isnt he being picked for England at 10? Ford isnt even a front runner to be picked as Lions 10 and yet he is keeping Farrell out of the 10 position. Does that not seem odd to you?

Personally I think Farrell is a better centre. He doesn't control games particularly well form 10.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But we know he can play there, we know he's better there why would you limit yourself and discount him from his best position? Itoje doesn't play 6 for England but I think he'd do an outstanding job there for the Lions. We also know gatland doesn't mind playing people outside of their country's positions given Tuilagi at 12, Hogg at 10 (ok that last one was crazy!).

I know you are saying that in jest, but I have seen it mentioned as serious comments by others on here. Hogg is simply not a 10. The thought of him marshaling Beauden Barrett in a test match at FH is terrifying.

no 7 & 1/2 of course you always write off George's performances. George has done his job well. Not sure what much more he can do. He comes on and generally makes a difference in the scrum which of course you dismiss because it's in the last 20. With your logic, Itoje would have never got a start. We'd have likely lost to Wales in the 6 nations with an unfit Launchbury in his place.

You don't think George would help his team mate like he does virtually all the time for Saracens?

A couple of George's highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA3Qzo2l4UU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqThtUH1yrY

Not wanting to go over old ground but I tend to think it's Marler coming on for Vunipola that strengthens the scrum.

George is known as one of the best scrummaging hookers so no I don't think it's Marler alone.

There's a big difference to Saracens scrum when it's Brits vs George - both who scrummage with Mako.

http://talksport.com/rugby-union/listen-should-dylan-hartley-stand-down-england-captain-he-shouldnt-have-been-captain

Anyway I'll take Jeff Probyn's opinion over yours....

“He’s not the best hooker in England,” Probyn added. “Jamie George is currently playing that role, and whenever he’s come onto the field for England he’s improved the entire scrum.

“So, the argument is why did Eddie Jones pick him, and will he now retain him. If he uses the same argument that he wants a person that he can say ‘this is my captain. He’s nothing to do with the old England. This is new England,’ then you can expect Hartley to come back.

“Hartley needs to look at himself very, very hard. He’s not played for his club this season, hardly at all. He’s played the England role, but come off in England games, and not done particularly well in the England games.

“The team itself has performed wonderfully well, but the scrum has actually got better when Jamie George has gone on.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But we know he can play there, we know he's better there why would you limit yourself and discount him from his best position? Itoje doesn't play 6 for England but I think he'd do an outstanding job there for the Lions. We also know gatland doesn't mind playing people outside of their country's positions given Tuilagi at 12, Hogg at 10 (ok that last one was crazy!).

I know you are saying that in jest, but I have seen it mentioned as serious comments by others on here. Hogg is simply not a 10. The thought of him marshaling Beauden Barrett in a test match at FH is terrifying.

The really worrying thing is the continued insistence from the Telegraph (especially in those rubbish 'Lions 2017: Who's on the plane?' picture gallery things that got Steve James the sack) that Hogg "can play across the backline" or "Could slot in at wing".

No... NO... NOOOO!!!

Hogg is a full-back. He might have slotted in as a 10 for Glasgow on occasion, and sometimes played 13, but he's done neither of these for a couple years. He certainly hasn't played wing.

I think Hogg is a fantastic player, and one of my nailed-on starters, but he's a full back. That's all. If we're in a situation where Hogg isn't the best full back and doesn't get picked, for his sake and for the Lions, I'd really prefer we pick someone else on the wing.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But we know he can play there, we know he's better there why would you limit yourself and discount him from his best position? Itoje doesn't play 6 for England but I think he'd do an outstanding job there for the Lions. We also know gatland doesn't mind playing people outside of their country's positions given Tuilagi at 12, Hogg at 10 (ok that last one was crazy!).

If he is so good there why isnt he being picked for England at 10? Ford isnt even a front runner to be picked as Lions 10 and yet he is keeping Farrell out of the 10 position. Does that not seem odd to you?

Personally I think Farrell is a better centre. He doesn't control games particularly well form 10.

Because England, in Jones' opinion don't have a suitable 12, Farrell was his preferred 10.