Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

Guys like Henderson may jump the queue simply because they can cover more than one position.

uncle_nigel wrote:

TJ wrote:

uncle_nigel wrote:

BamBam wrote:I've noticed posters from every country touting Itoje/Kruis/Henderson/Gray, but only seen the Welsh touting AWJ ...

I think you need to have a scroll back through this thread with both eyes open then, Bam .

By the way... WE KNOW the English dislike AWJ because he's welsh and we also know the Scottish dislike him because he's better than both the Gray's. Move on people.

Now that is just simple rubbish.  Going to get yourself banned again?

These are all very good locks we are talking about with not a lot between them but some are better in one area than another.  AJW has experience but he is not the athelete the others are.  Gray is the hardest working of the lot but a bit slow over the ground and too heavy  to make a top lineout jumper,  Itoje has the pace but not the experience

Banned for what?

For being tiresome beyond words.

Then there's of course AWJ, Charteris too cannot be discounted, especially as he's Welsh, J.Gray, maybe Henerson or Toner etc.

The problem is that Gatland is head coach. And Howley is his number 2. So it is obvious they will select Welsh player/s over others.

I have no problem with AWJ going on the Lions tour if he is fit, if he is on form. Fine no problem,..he should not be selected simply because( he is a former Lions player,)

I think a lot of the selections will depend on next years 6ns. Who is playing well in "HIS" own position at the time.

We could all name players we think should be on the Lions tour, if they are good enough they should go. But not on past reputations, it should be on form and fitness only. And certainly not because you are Welsh and Gatland his head coach.

If true that he will unfairly favour Welsh players that will be disappointing. Ireland showed they can beat NZ, England are playing really well, so the secret to winning the tour is limiting the inpact Welsh players have.

AWj hasn't played well for a while now... especially in the last AIs where he looked tired.  He's going to have to have a strong 6Ns but then again I don't know which player won't need to have a strong 6Ns. There are precious few who could afford to be injured or play below par and still feel confident about touring.

Jonny Sexton maybe. Lots of competition for places now in nearly every position.

In terms of experience, I think its a little overrated. Who has good experience in going to NZ or even facing NZ? In some ways you could argue that some older players who've been d**ked on by NZ their entire careers may have a slight defeatist attitude when it comes to facing them. What they going to say when they're under the cosh to calm their troops... I've played NZ 10 times and 10 times I've been beat, 3 of which victory was in our grasp but somehow they always seem to find a way to victory against me.

Experience can sometimes be as much a negative point as a positive one. See 2005 for details.

I think mentioning any player and "he was massive vs AUS in 2013" needs to take such comments with a pinch of salt. I mean Tom Youngs had a good series which sort of shows how much front five power AUS brought to the Lions. Its a mount kilamanjaro type challenge compared to a K2/Everest challenge that the Lions face come 2017.

Scottrf wrote:If true that he will unfairly favour Welsh players that will be disappointing. Ireland showed they can beat NZ, England are playing really well, so the secret to winning the tour is limiting the inpact Welsh players have.

The tour is 7 months away.

Shane Williams was world player of the year in 2008... he was truly epic... come 2009 he tried so hard to find form and yet all the game time, the pedigree, the talk wasn't enough for him.

Can Sexton be relied upon for his fitness given that he can barely get through 80 minutes just now, never mind playing 4 or 5 games in the space of 6 weeks?

Great player but we can't have any passengers on this tour!

fa0019 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:If true that he will unfairly favour Welsh players that will be disappointing. Ireland showed they can beat NZ, England are playing really well, so the secret to winning the tour is limiting the inpact Welsh players have.

The tour is 7 months away.

Shane Williams was world player of the year in 2008... he was truly epic... come 2009 he tried so hard to find form and yet all the game time, the pedigree, the talk wasn't enough for him.

I know, I wasn't wholly serious. Who knows which players will be available and on form.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Can Sexton be relied upon for his fitness given that he can barely get through 80 minutes just now, never mind playing 4 or 5 games in the space of 6 weeks?

Great player but we can't have any passengers on this tour!

I think he's the one player who if fit I would take regardless of him having 20 games under his belt or 0. Maro is almost in the same category.

Its not quite the same with JW in 05 who wasn't fit and had been close to 18 months out of the game. As long as he's fit I think he should travel.

Remember ledley king at Tottenham. For the last 2 seasons he did absolutely zero training and would only be used sparely for the most important 20 games of the season. Some players are that important. But yes he is no good if he's half crocked.

Sexton has got to be nailed on for a spot. No other ten comes close

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

Not much Scottish rugby its true. My bad but until a couple of seasons ago Scotland were largely unwatchable.

Not sure who i've belittled for not including AWJ, i just strongly disagree with assertions that Itoje et al are a better option and think the rationale is ridiculous….and your assertion that I'm picking  steam on stats and reputation is how Lions teams get picked - ask Sir Clive. In that case it definitely wasn't form.

I've been on two lions tours in 05 and 09 and what i noticed unlike other rugby tours is that there is a definite siege mentality. Selection needs to be about players who can handle the hothouse that the tour takes place in and for that you go with proven stock not speculation. It s a long old tour, old fashioned with lots of games and the pressure starts to tell.

There is a place for unproven players on the tour and I want to see itoje and Kruis play but they are not the spine of the squad. It is players like AWJ, Best, Hartley, Jenkins, Warburton that Gatland will look to as a senior player group. Why? Because he has known the guy for years and knows he is the single most constant performer in the Welsh pack. He is also skipper quality for his country. And last but not least, because he took the reins in a decider test v Aus and lead the Lions to a massive win. Now, anyone who doesnt recognize the worth in such a player over other unproven inexperienced talent just doesnt have a clue about what the Lions is and what is required.

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

Not much Scottish rugby its true. My bad but until a couple of seasons ago Scotland were largely unwatchable.

Not sure who i've belittled for not including AWJ, i just strongly disagree with assertions that Itoje et al are a better option and think the rationale is ridiculous….and your assertion that I'm picking  steam on stats and reputation is how Lions teams get picked - ask Sir Clive. In that case it definitely wasn't form.

I've been on two lions tours in 05 and 09 and what i noticed unlike other rugby tours is that there is a definite siege mentality. Selection needs to be about players who can handle the hothouse that the tour takes place in and for that you go with proven stock not speculation. It s a long old tour, old fashioned with lots of games and the pressure starts to tell.

There is a place for unproven players on the tour and I want to see itoje and Kruis play but they are not the spine of the squad. It is players like AWJ, Best, Hartley, Jenkins, Warburton that Gatland will look to as a senior player group. Why? Because he has known the guy for years and knows he is the single most constant performer in the Welsh pack. He is also skipper quality for his country. And last but not least, because he took the reins in a decider test v Aus and lead the Lions to a massive win. Now, anyone who doesnt recognize the worth in such a player over other unproven inexperienced talent just doesnt have a clue about what the Lions is and what is required.

If that's the case you'll remember that in 2009.. AWJ was dropped because he couldn't face up the physicality of the boks after the 1st test.

come on dude... Jenkins? He was mustard in his day but that day has long gone. Maybe good enough for the Wales (barely) but not a chance of making this tour.

True Raven wrote:Sexton has got to be nailed on for a spot.  No other ten comes close

Of course if you only go on experience and reputation and unfortunately some people believe only current form is relevant which of course it is not on a lions tour.

I agree that he is the class act but Gatland's remarks suggest he has concerns. I think Ford has a strong chance depending on how the 6 Nations go for him. Biggar is a very outside chance and of course Farrell definitely has the confidence.

It may also be the case that whoever wins the 9 shirt will determine who wins the 10 shirt. In Murray Sexton and Youngs Ford you have two extremely strong relationships.

Gwlad wrote:

True Raven wrote:Sexton has got to be nailed on for a spot.  No other ten comes close

Of course if you only go on experience and reputation and unfortunately some people believe only current form is relevant which of course it is not on a lions tour.

I agree that he is the class act but Gatland's remarks suggest he has concerns. I think Ford has a strong chance depending on how the 6 Nations go for him. Biggar is a very outside chance and of course Farrell definitely has the confidence.

It may also be the case that whoever wins the 9 shirt will determine who wins the 10 shirt. In Murray Sexton and Youngs Ford you have two extremely strong relationships.

Ford can only play with Farrell at 12. Otherwise there is no reason to even take him on tour. He can't kick and has both poor accuracy and range. People say its a confidence thing... well I can't remember ever seeing a time when he was comfortable with the tee.

Maybe if Laidlaw toured but again you're lacking range and compromising your other selections to fit in Ford.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Switching it around then even with an array of brilliant locks is that an area of strength for the Lions or given they're against Retallic and Whitelock even par? Is it more front and back row where we should be able to pressure?

I think Locks is an area where we should be able to match if not outplay NZ. Probably the area in which we have the most choice of top rank players

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

Not much Scottish rugby its true. My bad but until a couple of seasons ago Scotland were largely unwatchable.

Not sure who i've belittled for not including AWJ, i just strongly disagree with assertions that Itoje et al are a better option and think the rationale is ridiculous….and your assertion that I'm picking  steam on stats and reputation is how Lions teams get picked - ask Sir Clive. In that case it definitely wasn't form.

I've been on two lions tours in 05 and 09 and what i noticed unlike other rugby tours is that there is a definite siege mentality. Selection needs to be about players who can handle the hothouse that the tour takes place in and for that you go with proven stock not speculation. It s a long old tour, old fashioned with lots of games and the pressure starts to tell.

There is a place for unproven players on the tour and I want to see itoje and Kruis play but they are not the spine of the squad. It is players like AWJ, Best, Hartley, Jenkins, Warburton that Gatland will look to as a senior player group. Why? Because he has known the guy for years and knows he is the single most constant performer in the Welsh pack. He is also skipper quality for his country. And last but not least, because he took the reins in a decider test v Aus and lead the Lions to a massive win. Now, anyone who doesnt recognize the worth in such a player over other unproven inexperienced talent just doesnt have a clue about what the Lions is and what is required.

If that's the case you'll remember that in 2009.. AWJ was dropped because he couldn't face up the physicality of the boks after the 1st test.

come on dude... Jenkins? He was mustard in his day but that day has long gone. Maybe good enough for the Wales (barely) but not a chance of making this tour.

Sitting in the stand at Durban i recall it was Vickery that crumbled at the first test (ably assisted by Lee Mears) and was replaced by Adam Jones after 4 minutes of the 2nd half which saw a massive lion comeback.

As for Gethin, you just dont appreciate his value and you clearly haven't watched enough of him this term to know he was superb, especially at the breakdown. Gatland however does appreciate his value and that is why i expect him to tour and be involved in the tests if he is fit. Even then he still may tour as he did in 2011 for RWC while injured. He may be old, he is still by far one of the best footballing props in the NH and is exceptional at the breakdown.

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

True Raven wrote:Sexton has got to be nailed on for a spot.  No other ten comes close

Of course if you only go on experience and reputation and unfortunately some people believe only current form is relevant which of course it is not on a lions tour.

I agree that he is the class act but Gatland's remarks suggest he has concerns. I think Ford has a strong chance depending on how the 6 Nations go for him. Biggar is a very outside chance and of course Farrell definitely has the confidence.

It may also be the case that whoever wins the 9 shirt will determine who wins the 10 shirt. In Murray Sexton and Youngs Ford you have two extremely strong relationships.

Ford can only play with Farrell at 12. Otherwise there is no reason to even take him on tour. He can't kick and has both poor accuracy and range. People say its a confidence thing... well I can't remember ever seeing a time when he was comfortable with the tee.

Maybe if Laidlaw toured but again you're lacking range and compromising your other selections to fit in Ford.

Sexton it is then. But if he isn't fit and you believe Ford isn't the solution then what? Apparently Cipriani is on the radar.

Gwlad wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

As for gray, it shows how insignificant the other Gray really is which actually underlines my point.

You can't have watched much Rugby if you haven't noticed Jonny consistently outshines Richie.

Frankly, I find your comments about AWJ being nailed on to start very partisan and not in the spirit of the lions at all. In a position of such obvious strength as lock they become ludicrous.

We can all have our preferences of course, but here you are belittling others because they're not including AWJ. I don't know whether you are picking your team based on stats and reputation (seems like it), nationality (possible, you've mentioned it more than anyone else) or the performances you've this season (unlikely, you haven't mentioned anything to give this impression), but if you really hold the spirit of the lions in such high regard then you need to be a little more flexible IMO.

Not much Scottish rugby its true. My bad but until a couple of seasons ago Scotland were largely unwatchable.

Not sure who i've belittled for not including AWJ, i just strongly disagree with assertions that Itoje et al are a better option and think the rationale is ridiculous….and your assertion that I'm picking  steam on stats and reputation is how Lions teams get picked - ask Sir Clive. In that case it definitely wasn't form.

I've been on two lions tours in 05 and 09 and what i noticed unlike other rugby tours is that there is a definite siege mentality. Selection needs to be about players who can handle the hothouse that the tour takes place in and for that you go with proven stock not speculation. It s a long old tour, old fashioned with lots of games and the pressure starts to tell.

There is a place for unproven players on the tour and I want to see itoje and Kruis play but they are not the spine of the squad. It is players like AWJ, Best, Hartley, Jenkins, Warburton that Gatland will look to as a senior player group. Why? Because he has known the guy for years and knows he is the single most constant performer in the Welsh pack. He is also skipper quality for his country. And last but not least, because he took the reins in a decider test v Aus and lead the Lions to a massive win. Now, anyone who doesnt recognize the worth in such a player over other unproven inexperienced talent just doesnt have a clue about what the Lions is and what is required.

If that's the case you'll remember that in 2009.. AWJ was dropped because he couldn't face up the physicality of the boks after the 1st test.

come on dude... Jenkins? He was mustard in his day but that day has long gone. Maybe good enough for the Wales (barely) but not a chance of making this tour.

Sitting in the stand at Durban i recall it was Vickery that crumbled at the first test (ably assisted by Lee Mears) and was replaced by Adam Jones after 4 minutes of the 2nd half which saw a massive lion comeback.

As for Gethin, you just dont appreciate his value and you clearly haven't watched enough of him this term to know he was superb, especially at the breakdown. Gatland however does appreciate his value and that is why i expect him to tour and be involved in the tests if he is fit. Even then he still may tour as he did in 2011 for RWC while injured. He may be old, he is still by far one of the best footballing props in the NH and is exceptional at the breakdown.

I too recall that. I also recall him being dropped for Simon Shaw for the 2nd and 3rd tests.

Gethin is decent on the floor... he also gives an awful amount of penalties away in the scrum. Tom Youngs is a brilliant player in the loose but he can't be judged on that alone. If he can't do the set piece then everything he does outside of that is worthless. Why someone like Mako perhaps isn't right for this tour either. What the Lions need is a strong loosehead who won't go down in the scrum.. not a chap who can do a few dummy passes every now and again. Fine against AUS, NZ he'd be blown away just like Gethin will.

Gwlad wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

True Raven wrote:Sexton has got to be nailed on for a spot.  No other ten comes close

Of course if you only go on experience and reputation and unfortunately some people believe only current form is relevant which of course it is not on a lions tour.

I agree that he is the class act but Gatland's remarks suggest he has concerns. I think Ford has a strong chance depending on how the 6 Nations go for him. Biggar is a very outside chance and of course Farrell definitely has the confidence.

It may also be the case that whoever wins the 9 shirt will determine who wins the 10 shirt. In Murray Sexton and Youngs Ford you have two extremely strong relationships.

Ford can only play with Farrell at 12. Otherwise there is no reason to even take him on tour. He can't kick and has both poor accuracy and range. People say its a confidence thing... well I can't remember ever seeing a time when he was comfortable with the tee.

Maybe if Laidlaw toured but again you're lacking range and compromising your other selections to fit in Ford.

Sexton it is then. But if he isn't fit and you believe Ford isn't the solution then what? Apparently Cipriani is on the radar.

Revolving door Cipriani! He would be another drama queen who would play well against King country or like and then blast the coaches in the paper for saying they're not choosing off form.

fa0019 - that would be Nel then? The prop who can hold his own and more in the scrum?

Gwlad wrote:

fa0019 wrote:come on dude... Jenkins? He was mustard in his day but that day has long gone. Maybe good enough for the Wales (barely) but not a chance of making this tour.

As for Gethin, you just dont appreciate his value and you clearly haven't watched enough of him this term to know he was superb, especially only at the breakdown.

Fixed that for you.

just read Gethin has done a bicep and likely will miss 6 Nations…..even then i still expect him to tour.

AWJ played 70 minutes of the first test and held his own behind a prop who got owned by the Beast. Shaw was brought in for bulk and experience behind a Welsh front row for the critical decider with AWJ going to the bench and the 3rd test was a non event. It was Mears and Vickery that costs us the scrum and with a little help from Ronan the tour itself, and despite rumors to the contrary it was the end of big Phil.

majesticimperialman wrote:Then there's of course AWJ, Charteris too cannot be discounted, especially as he's Welsh, J.Gray, maybe Henerson or Toner etc.

The problem is that Gatland is head coach. And Howley is his number 2. So it is obvious they will select Welsh player/s over others.

I have no problem with AWJ going on the Lions tour if he is fit, if he is on form. Fine no problem,..he should not be selected simply because( he is a former Lions player,)

I think a lot of the selections will depend on next years 6ns. Who is playing well in "HIS" own position at the time.

We could all name players we think should be on the Lions tour, if they are good enough they should go. But not on past reputations, it should be on form and fitness only. And certainly not because you are Welsh and Gatland his head coach.

Makes all the difference, you guys just dont understand the Lions. There has to be continuity in the squad, especially from a winning tour. If AWJ is playing badly - this never really happens - then fine but he is consistently the hardest working forward in red. He is always up there in the carry and tackle stats and is solid at the set piece.

I do love the all of a sudden we are discounting past reputations. Maybe had Sir Clive done that and played the form players in 05 the tour wouldn't have been such a farce.

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Then there's of course AWJ, Charteris too cannot be discounted, especially as he's Welsh, J.Gray, maybe Henerson or Toner etc.

The problem is that Gatland is head coach. And Howley is his number 2. So it is obvious they will select Welsh player/s over others.

I have no problem with AWJ going on the Lions tour if he is fit, if he is on form. Fine no problem,..he should not be selected simply because( he is a former Lions player,)

I think a lot of the selections will depend on next years 6ns. Who is playing well in "HIS" own position at the time.

We could all name players we think should be on the Lions tour, if they are good enough they should go. But not on past reputations, it should be on form and fitness only. And certainly not because you are Welsh and Gatland his head coach.

Makes all the difference, you guys just dont understand the Lions.

I understand that there's four years between tours. I'd rather see players selected on how they're playing in 2017 rather than how they played in 2013.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Then there's of course AWJ, Charteris too cannot be discounted, especially as he's Welsh, J.Gray, maybe Henerson or Toner etc.

The problem is that Gatland is head coach. And Howley is his number 2. So it is obvious they will select Welsh player/s over others.

I have no problem with AWJ going on the Lions tour if he is fit, if he is on form. Fine no problem,..he should not be selected simply because( he is a former Lions player,)

I think a lot of the selections will depend on next years 6ns. Who is playing well in "HIS" own position at the time.

We could all name players we think should be on the Lions tour, if they are good enough they should go. But not on past reputations, it should be on form and fitness only. And certainly not because you are Welsh and Gatland his head coach.

Makes all the difference, you guys just dont understand the Lions.

I understand that there's four years between tours. I'd rather see players selected on how they're playing in 2017 rather than how they played in 2013.

said Sir Clive Woodward, with irony.

At least he only looked back two years.

Gwalad.

The likes of AWJ, Sam Warburton. Gethin Jenkins, are all Great Welsh internationals.

But None i repeat none of them have Beaten New Zealand, either in New Zealand, or at home in Wales.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:At least he only looked back two years.

No one wants that again. He almost destroyed the Lions. Point is that you need a balance of experience and youth. Some experienced players may get the nod over youth due to the unique nature of the lions. But there has always been a bolter tradition and if one of these less experienced players is on fire then great lets have them in the tests side. But you will need players like AWJ to give you the balance. However if he is playing really badly then no doubt he won't get picked, i think he'd have to be really off form for that to happen.

Look, every player ages out of being at the top eventually. Right now Sexton is, Gethin is, even Vickery. The lions is different, i mean look at BOD. No one can disgagree it was the right decision to make, the results speak for themselves and IMO we'd have lost the 3rd test without Doc.

Anyway, we'll lose probably and then everyone can just blame Wales again the same way they blamed us for winning last time.

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad.

The likes of AWJ, Sam Warburton. Gethin Jenkins, are all Great Welsh internationals.

But None i repeat none of them have Beaten New Zealand, either in New Zealand, or at home in Wales.

And not in Chicago either right!

I wondered when that would get used. They're all winning Lions though aren't they.(well GJ was selected but didn't play)

I forgot Halfpenny too…he'll be part of the senior group. Probable starter at 15 as well i expect though i would like to see Hogg.

If Halfpenny is selected, will be for full back or for his goal kicking?

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad.

The likes of AWJ, Sam Warburton. Gethin Jenkins, are all Great Welsh internationals.

But None i repeat none of them have Beaten New Zealand, either in New Zealand, or at home in Wales.

And not in Chicago either right!

I wondered when that would get used. They're all winning Lions though aren't they.

So is Alex Cuthbert.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwalad.

The likes of AWJ, Sam Warburton. Gethin Jenkins, are all Great Welsh internationals.

But None i repeat none of them have Beaten New Zealand, either in New Zealand, or at home in Wales.

And not in Chicago either right!

I wondered when that would get used. They're all winning Lions though aren't they.

So is Alex Cuthbert.

Ah, i see. So it is the Welsh thing going on. Why don't we just call it the B and I Lions with no Welshmen please and certainly not a winning Welsh coach.

Most Welshmen would be front of the queue to say that Cuthbert is finished as an international rugby player. Cuthbert was selected in 2013 after his performance against England in the 2013 6 Nations. He scored a try in the test he played in, not a bad record.

Ah I see. So it's the English thing going on........

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Ah I see. So it's the English thing going on........

Yeah must be, fight fire with fire. Thank goodness the powers that be in the Lions can rise above all this rivalry and do whats best to win the series for all of us which they have proven they can do already.

p.s. My lions 23 has 9 englishmen in it

fa0019 wrote:AWj hasn't played well for a while now... especially in the last AIs where he looked tired.  He's going to have to have a strong 6Ns but then again I don't know which player won't need to have a strong 6Ns. There are precious few who could afford to be injured or play below par and still feel confident about touring.

Jonny Sexton maybe. Lots of competition for places now in nearly every position.

In terms of experience, I think its a little overrated. Who has good experience in going to NZ or even facing NZ? In some ways you could argue that some older players who've been d**ked on by NZ their entire careers may have a slight defeatist attitude when it comes to facing them. What they going to say when they're under the cosh to calm their troops... I've played NZ 10 times and 10 times I've been beat, 3 of which victory was in our grasp but somehow they always seem to find a way to victory against me.

Experience can sometimes be as much a negative point as a positive one. See 2005 for details.

I think mentioning any player and "he was massive vs AUS in 2013" needs to take such comments with a pinch of salt. I mean Tom Youngs had a good series which sort of shows how much front five power AUS brought to the Lions. Its a mount kilamanjaro type challenge compared to a K2/Everest challenge that the Lions face come 2017.

More like Ben Nevis. Maybe even the hill at the bottom of my home village.

Jenkins is past his best for Wales never mind the Lions. An opinion shared by the Welsh lads I go to the Ospreys with too..

Jenkins.

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Switching it around then even with an array of brilliant locks is that an area of strength for the Lions or given they're against Retallic and Whitelock even par? Is it more front and back row where we should be able to pressure?

I think Locks is an area where we should be able to match if not outplay NZ.  Probably the area in which we have the most choice of top rank players

It's just unfortunate they possibly have the best 2 in the world!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Switching it around then even with an array of brilliant locks is that an area of strength for the Lions or given they're against Retallic and Whitelock even par? Is it more front and back row where we should be able to pressure?

I think Locks is an area where we should be able to match if not outplay NZ.  Probably the area in which we have the most choice of top rank players

It's just unfortunate they possibly have the best 2 in the world!

Untill Kruis and Itoje get there you mean.

majesticimperialman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Switching it around then even with an array of brilliant locks is that an area of strength for the Lions or given they're against Retallic and Whitelock even par? Is it more front and back row where we should be able to pressure?

I think Locks is an area where we should be able to match if not outplay NZ.  Probably the area in which we have the most choice of top rank players

It's just unfortunate they possibly have the best 2 in the world!

Untill Kruis and Itoje get there you mean.

Sure those guys with their 27 shared caps are definitively World Class.

Listen this is not a Welsh thing. Please stop playing that card

AWJ may tour and may be captain. The 6N is going to be key for all. I personally do not think he brings enough against the others younger ones but I have even wrong. He is a very good player and was great and it may be his leadership is enough

But none is a cert to be picked let alone captain and we have to remember that

Well, Hartley hasn't done himself any favours with regards to the captaincy. Another red for a wild swinging arm to Sean O'Brien.

I can't see Itoje being overlooked for the 4 shirt if he's fit. His work at the breakdown is exceptional for a second row.

The question then will probably be over tactics. If Gatland is looking to dominate set-piece then Jonny Gray and Itoje are unlikely as a partnership, although both are excellent around the park.

To target the line-out and maul he will want one of Kruis/AWJ/Toner/Richie Gray to call the line-out and act as primary jumper.

4.Itoje, J Gray, Henderson
5.Kruis, AWJ

Those would be my choices for the 5 locks at the moment. There are a lot of locks who offer different things without a huge amount between them though.

Accepted, but i think it's naive to suggest its not anti Welsh sentiment. I recall in 2013 that the complaint was that we won playing Warrenball. I dont give a rats ass who makes the team and repeat i have 9 english in my side, but i think the round dismissal of AWJ compared to Itoje/Kruis et al is beyond naive. these are ALL great players but a lion has to be much more than that and if there is a great player with experience as a winning captain he gets the nod for me.

Gwlad wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Ah I see. So it's the English thing going on........

Yeah must be, fight fire with fire. Thank goodness the powers that be in the Lions can rise above all this rivalry and do whats best to win the series for all of us which they have proven they can do already.

p.s. My lions 23 has 9 englishmen in it

Fair enough my 23 would probably have 2 or 3 Welsh players in it. That is not being anti Welsh - it would be picking the best squad of players to win.
AWJ would not make that 23 right now.

It is not anti Welsh to think a tactic is wrong.

It is not anti Welsh to think there are better players than specific ones

It is not anti Welsh to have an opinion on players from other nations


I am just as critical of our own players (ask about ndl)

The anti Welsh commitment about sentiment is offensives and defensive S.

KingCarlos - Jonny Gray runs the Glasgow and Scotland lineout. He is a beast in the scrum as well. Gray is not the main lineout jumper tho - he is a bit heavy to lift! He does call to himself sometimes tho and even gets the odd steal

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well, Hartley hasn't done himself any favours with regards to the captaincy. Another red for a wild swinging arm to Sean O'Brien.

While AWJ just broke the Ospreys try record for a forward while leading his side to a massive win. Harltey proves he is temperamentally unsound under pressure. This speculation is becoming academic.

majesticimperialman wrote:If Halfpenny is selected, will be for full back or for his goal kicking?

Since he scored 49 out of 79 points in the 3 tests in 2013 i imagine it will be for his point scoring ability.