Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

Gwlad wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well, Hartley hasn't done himself any favours with regards to the captaincy. Another red for a wild swinging arm to Sean O'Brien.

While AWJ just broke the Ospreys try record for a forward while leading his side to a massive win. Harltey proves he is temperamentally unsound under pressure. This speculation is becoming academic.

Yup it is obvious.
Rory Best it is then.
International captain. Beaten the all blacks. Good discipline. Respected by players and refs. And add in his two international props are almost certain to be starting the tests it's the obvious choice

carpet baboon wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well, Hartley hasn't done himself any favours with regards to the captaincy. Another red for a wild swinging arm to Sean O'Brien.

While AWJ just broke the Ospreys try record for a forward while leading his side to a massive win. Harltey proves he is temperamentally unsound under pressure. This speculation is becoming academic.

Yup it is obvious.
Rory Best it is then.
International captain. Beaten the all blacks. Good discipline. Respected by players and refs. And add in his two international props are almost certain to be starting the tests it's the obvious choice

Things will change on a weekly basis particularly during the Euro weeks and 6Ns.

I was thinking today about who the 10 will be for the Lions. My first thought it would be close between Farrell and Sexton.

But what about the Leinster fly half Paddy Jackson? I thought he played pritty well today and could be pushing for a starting slot.

Also their is Dan Biggar And if he is needed on the pitch Leigh Halfpenny.

If the fly half is there for the kicking duties, then i guess there will be no place for Laidlaw in the squad.

Laidlaw is a good player I like him. But I'm not confident that he's the best scrum half in Scotland let alone in the lions selection pool.

Well Finn Russel got man of the match against Racing and against dan carter no less

Really one of his best games at controlling the game as well as his usual magic

Riskysports wrote:Well Finn Russel got man of the match against Racing and against dan carter no less

Really one of his best games at controlling the game as well as his usual magic

Never gave him a thought to be honest.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Well Finn Russel got man of the match against Racing and against dan carter no less

Really one of his best games at controlling the game as well as his usual magic

Never gave him a thought to be honest.

He is an outsidenchance but certainly not in pole position.

Sexton, Farrell, Biggar or Ford with Hogg as back up.

Best or AWJ as Captain now.

Gwlad wrote:Sexton, Farrell, Biggar or Ford with Hogg as back up.

Best or AWJ as Captain now.

I like Biggar but I'd prefer Sexton, Farell and Ford for this tour.

Russell is not right for Lions 10. He is still prone to too many brainfarts. Even today he made a good interception then threw a stupid pass giving the ball away. IIRC he also made another stupid pass giving the ball away. Reminds me rather of Townsend - capable of sublime touches and idiocy in the same game.

I don't think there is anyone else around as capable of setting up tries with wondrous play but equally I don't think there is another top team 10 who makes so many daft passes

I'd have the order of flyhalfs for the lions as
Sexton
Biggar
Ford
Farrell
Russell
Jackson

Have to say J Gray was immense again

And really took that team to win. A true captain performance

Farrell is definitely no2 and he covers centre too. Biggar is an outside bet but i feel he won't get the attack flat enough. Ford will but his boot is suspect.

Not sure about Jackson/Russell…Lions material?

Unless Farrell gets some game time at 10 in the 6 Nations we have potential issue with strength in depth at 10. And certainly talent. Its Sexton's tour but he needs to stay fit. Neither Farrell or Ford offer the same threat.

I'd be interested to see how Sam Davies does this 6 Nations.

Indeed risky 20 tackles non missed 4 passes 8 runs ( for 3m) As usual tidying up rubbish for most of his "runs" Captained well and kept on Doyles right side despite being warned a couple of times.

The man is a machine and he is the heart and soul of that Glasgow side

TJ wrote:Indeed risky  20 tackles non missed 4 passes 8 runs ( for 3m)  As usual tidying up rubbish for most of his "runs"  Captained well and kept on Doyles right side despite being warned a couple of times.

The man is a machine and he is the heart and soul of that Glasgow side

By the way what was Hogg's tackle made/missed numbers like?

Just watched the Sarries v Sale game. And Kruis and Itoje did a dam site better than any think AWJ could do.

So do not think AWJ will go on the Lions tour.

No Gwalad this is not being anti Welsh. It is juts being honest.

majesticimperialman wrote:Just watched the Sarries v Sale game. And Kruis and Itoje did a dam site better than any think AWJ could do.

So do not think AWJ will go on the Lions tour.

No Gwalad this is not being anti Welsh. It is juts being honest.

That you're being honest just makes me infinitely feel better because you obviously don't have a clue if you don't think he'll even tour. I mean why would you take him right? No reason at all.
Lets just clarify this so i'm not confusing what you're saying…you watched Itoje and Kruis and they're great and that means AWJ won't tour….interesting maths, you didn't watch AWJ last night v Grenoble did you?

Also….. 'any think' are you for real?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

TJ wrote:Indeed risky  20 tackles non missed 4 passes 8 runs ( for 3m)  As usual tidying up rubbish for most of his "runs"  Captained well and kept on Doyles right side despite being warned a couple of times.

The man is a machine and he is the heart and soul of that Glasgow side

By the way what was Hogg's tackle made/missed numbers like?

2 made 2 missed - one of which he really should have made and cost a try.

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=290656&league=271937

AJW might not tour as there are at least 4 better locks playing right now.  Maybe dirt tracker captain.  No way is he worth a place in the test side given the way others playing - but Gatland will take him and might well make him captain

Edit - missed more tackles in that game than JG has done all season ;-)

Gwlad wrote:..........................

Not sure about Jackson/Russell…Lions material?

........................

I'd be interested to see how Sam Davies does this 6 Nations.

Russell is not as I said elsewhere - despite being the best around at sublime touches his game management can be suspect and he makes bluders every game.

Davies looks like on for the future all right and Paddy Jackson is getting better everytime I see him

If Sexton gets broken the strength in depth becomes an issue. Biggar / ford then who? Farrell is nothing like as good as either of them

I do think it will come down too who is going to take the goal kicks. if Sexton gets injured.

Biggarr has a better goal kicking rate than Ford, and Davies, for instance. What about Half penny? is his kicking at goal better than Biggarr's? or Laidlaw even?

And how good is paddy jackson's compared to those above?

TJ wrote:AJW might not tour as there are at least 4 better locks playing right now.  Maybe dirt tracker captain.  No way is he worth a place in the test side given the way others playing - but Gatland will take him and might well make him captain

Edit - missed more tackles in that game than JG has done all season ;-)

In your opinion.

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just watched the Sarries v Sale game. And Kruis and Itoje did a dam site better than any think AWJ could do.

So do not think AWJ will go on the Lions tour.

No Gwalad this is not being anti Welsh. It is juts being honest.

That you're being honest just makes me infinitely feel better because you obviously don't have a clue if you don't think he'll even tour. I mean why would you take him right? No reason at all.
Lets just clarify this so i'm not confusing what you're saying…you watched Itoje and Kruis and they're great and that means AWJ won't tour….interesting maths, you didn't watch AWJ last night v Grenoble did you?

Also….. 'any think' are you for real?

That will be Grenoble 3rds by all accounts!

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:AJW might not tour as there are at least 4 better locks playing right now.  Maybe dirt tracker captain.  No way is he worth a place in the test side given the way others playing - but Gatland will take him and might well make him captain

Edit - missed more tackles in that game than JG has done all season ;-)

In your opinion.

Certainly = IMO and that of many others. No facts when it comes to assessing players.

We will see come the 6 nations but If AJWs stats even come close to ickle jonnys I'll grovel for weeks. You can hold me to this

TJ wrote:AJW might not tour as there are at least 4 better locks playing right now.  Maybe dirt tracker captain.  No way is he worth a place in the test side given the way others playing - but Gatland will take him and might well make him captain

Edit - missed more tackles in that game than JG has done all season ;-)

I reckon at least 8

J grey

20 tackles none missed

Led a team to victory. The first team to beat Racing at home all year

Showed leadership. Showed how to bring a team home

Was immense in stopping their driving maul

A true captains performance

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:AJW might not tour as there are at least 4 better locks playing right now.  Maybe dirt tracker captain.  No way is he worth a place in the test side given the way others playing - but Gatland will take him and might well make him captain

Edit - missed more tackles in that game than JG has done all season ;-)

In your opinion.

Certainly = IMO and that of many others.  No facts when it comes to assessing players.

We will see come the 6 nations but If AJWs stats even come close to ickle jonnys I'll grovel for weeks.  You can hold me to this

You're changing the goal posts now. Now you're comparing him directly to probably the best lock in the Lions pool, but before you were saying he won't be able to break into the 5 or so locks that they'll take. So, for me if his stats (your measurement yardstick) from the 6N put him somewhere in the top 5, and if they're taking 5 locks, then he should go. I personally think he will be in the top 5, stats wise.

Nice to see someone recognising ickle jonnys talents. Usually on here he is downrated to below Kruis, Itoje, AWJ etc

Yes AWJ will be in the top 6 more than likely

Gray and AWJ can both start in the midweek side.

They can also captain a half each.

Happy now?

TJ wrote:Nice to see someone recognising ickle jonnys talents.  Usually on here he is downrated to below Kruis, Itoje, AWJ etc

Yes AWJ will be in the top 6 more than likely

But not a surprise to see you discounting players that are not 'your own'.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:Nice to see someone recognising ickle jonnys talents.  Usually on here he is downrated to below Kruis, Itoje, AWJ etc

Yes AWJ will be in the top 6 more than likely

But not a surprise to see you discounting players that are not 'your own'.

Isn't that what this thread is about?

Hah, it was a joke. Why do people take the Lions so seriously?

Lies, damn lies and statistics. Jones willl makes some peoples liss and not others, fair enough its a great list of locks, streets ahead of 4 years ago.

Nice position to be in really. Take the top 4 locks out and still the next couple would not let the lions down. Shame 10 is not the same. Take the top 4 out and who are you left with? Russell? P Jackson?

But #10 is just one position. The equivalent would be taking 8 locks out.

Good point tho - same applies really - some positions we are so much stronger. Take the top 8 locks out of the equation. who are we left with? launchberry? Ritchie Gray? Devon Toner? closer to top level that Russell or Jackson would be

Have no idea how he is going to pick if most of them are fit.

Lot depends where Ijote gets selected 6 or Lock.
He could take both Itoje , and undeed Henderson as 6 or Locks and thereby take one less lock.

That would mean Gray, Gray, AWJ, Kruis, Launchberry, Lawes, Toner fighting for 3 places - tough call.

TJ wrote:Nice position to be in really.  Take the top 4 locks out and still the next couple would not let the lions down.  Shame 10 is not the same.  Take the top 4 out and who are you left with?  Russell?  P Jackson?

Who do you consider the top 4?

For me first level is Farrell, Sexton, Biggar
The next batch are Russell, Jackson, Ford and possibly Cipriani

Launchbury had an excellent game today in Wasps' win today against Connacht.

In terms of flyhalf, I don't really rate Russell. I'd put Cips above him and I don't think he's that close to contention unless there are a few injuries.

10s?  

I would have the order something like Sexton. Ford.  Biggar.  cipriani. farell, and no others of the right quality.  Guys like Russell, are really a level down.  Depends if you want a steady player of a mercurial one. ( not including p-lace kicking in this)

Russell is very much a Curates egg.  He will set up tries in ways non of the others can but he will also have at least one brainfart a match and throw an intercept or similar.  Yesterdays match he was man of the match ( and against Carter) but one passage says it all.  Made a great interception himself then passed to an opponent.

I don't rate Farrell at all. What he does is good for sure - but what he can't do is important and he simply does not have the extra skills in putting the guys outside him away a top 10 needs. too slow between the ears. To beat the all blacks you need tries and thus you need a ten who can consistently put the outside backs into space.

Glasgow game here if anyone wants to see why we rate Russell. One of his best game I think
4 years time he might be the man for the lions. Not this time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mp9EjGksCk

TJ wrote:I don't rate Farrell at all.  What he does is good for sure - but what he can't do is important and he simply does not have the extra skills in putting the guys outside him away a top 10 needs.  too slow between the ears.  To beat the all blacks you need tries and thus you need a ten who can consistently put the outside backs into space.

England beat NZ with Farrell at 10.

Farrell's creative prowess has improved in recent years too. He's certainly not just a kicker/defender.

Having said this, he could easily start at 12 and cover 10.

Improved yes - but not at the level a top ten needs. why does Jones play Ford at 10?

Lack of a trusted 12. Chose Farrell over Ford for 10 but then Burrell had a mare.

TJ wrote:Improved yes - but not at the level a top ten needs.  why does Jones play Ford at 10?

The only all round 10 we have is Sexton (creative, solid, good defender, decent kicker). We're then looking at Farrell and Biggar in terms of the next best.

Ford is the most creative 10 (with the best vision) in the NH (a step above Russell), but has problems with his kicking and needs Farrell to support him with that (and defence). It's a good combination currently, either until England have better options at 12 or Ford improves his kicking.

I think you all being a little harsh on Russel


All players make mistakes but you highlight his like a character flaw. He actually make no more that any other 10 at the moment but you seem to think it is a huge deal

Yesterday is a prime example. The passive of play where he intercepted and then tried to off load that failed. Now that is now a huge indication of his inability to control a game. Magnify a mistake why not.



All make mistakes every game

I would not have him as top pick yet but the amount of negativity for a pro 12 winning person (must be able to control a game well enough to win the whole thing) is ridiculous

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:Improved yes - but not at the level a top ten needs.  why does Jones play Ford at 10?

The only all round 10 we have is Sexton (creative, solid, good defender, decent kicker). We're then looking at Farrell and Biggar in terms of the next best.

Ford is the most creative 10 (with the best vision) in the NH (a step above Russell), but has problems with his kicking and needs Farrell to support him with that (and defence). It's a good combination currently, either until England have better options at 12 or Ford improves his kicking.

I'm increasingly convinced Fords defence is a step above Farrell.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:Improved yes - but not at the level a top ten needs.  why does Jones play Ford at 10?

The only all round 10 we have is Sexton (creative, solid, good defender, decent kicker). We're then looking at Farrell and Biggar in terms of the next best.

Ford is the most creative 10 (with the best vision) in the NH (a step above Russell), but has problems with his kicking and needs Farrell to support him with that (and defence). It's a good combination currently, either until England have better options at 12 or Ford improves his kicking.

I'm increasingly convinced Fords defence is a step above Farrell.

Farrell's has been a bit off recently (tackles too high - is he trying to strip the ball? - and is bounced off a bit). I don't think Ford is weak in defence (for his size), he's just smaller than your average 10.

I don't think Farrell gets enough praise for how well he's slotted in at 12 (although he's obviously played there for Sarries too). It just gives England more options. It would be nice to have other genuine alternatives at 12 though.

Risky - I really rate Russell but I think the way he plays the game will all ways lead to more mistakes than someone like Farrell. He takes the high risk option and that will gain us tries and lose them - much like Townsend was

He is a very young and inexperienced player and will improve - and yesterdays game he showed better game management than I have ever seen him do so that is real improvement

Cyril - watch the game linked to or the Aus game. Russell is the most creative 10 around capable of making tries from nothing.

TJ wrote:Cyril - watch the game linked to or the Aus game.  Russell is the most creative 10 around capable of making tries from nothing.  

I simply don't agree that he's more creative than Ford. It's not a big issue though. Just a matter of opinion.

Anyway, this is a Lions thread and I think most (including Scottish fans) have agreed Russell isn't a real contender so probably best to move on