Lions 2017

First topic message reminder :

Looking at the recent internationals and to beat allblack you need pace and vision so this is my team so far! 1.m.vunipola 2.hartley 3.furlong 4.itoje 5.kruis 6.faletau 7.stander 8. B.vunipola 9. Youngs 10.ford 11.watson 12.farrell 13.joseph 14.l.williams 15. Hogg 16.best 17.mcgrath 18.lee 19 .henderson 20.o'brien 21.murray 22.henshaw 23.north

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:
Not sure what you know about NZ rugby but that Auckland side of the 90's would have beaten most international sides and did when they played touring teams.  Hardly mickey mouse?

What touring teams did Auckland beat while Henry was in charge?

1992:

v Fiji 29-0
v Ireland 62-7

1993:

v Samoa 18-10
v B & I Lions 23-18

1995:

v Tonga 37-25
v Samoa 25-22

Obviously I've put in bold the most impressive wins.....

Haha. Lets just forget the Ireland one even happened. In the same year Ireland had one of their closest runs against a New Zealand side ever losing by only a few points.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Finn Russell motm 2 weeks in a row against Racing metro, putting in an incredible attacking performance against one of the too teams in Europe.

He's certainly still a few injuries away from selection, but may be a dark horse given that we need good ball players to play in NZ!

Just got caught up on the games from the weekend. The performance from Russell was probably the pick of the round, from the games I watched anyway. The last few games have been the best I have ever seen him play. In terms of pure skill level, he is right up there with the other contenders - of that I have absolutely no doubt. Watch the pick up off his laces and the nudge over Andreu, from last weekend, or the 2 man miss-pass to DTH to score in corner in the dying few minutes against Ulster, in the 2015 Pro 12 semi final. The lad can play.

What he needs to do this 6N is prove that he can control a game from 10 when his pack are not so dominant. I think one of the reasons that he hasn't shined as much in a Scotland jersey (although he has had some very good games), is due to the influence of Laidlaw. Wee Greig tries to control the tempo of the game from 9, deciding when to kick, when to give it to the backline, when to form pods - everything goes through him, to the detriment of Russell's game. The next step for Finn is to take some of the decision making into his own hands.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Lets just forget the Ireland one even happened. In the same year Ireland had one of their closest runs against a New Zealand side ever losing by only a few points.

The previous year Ireland lost a tour 2-0 to Namibia. Neil Francis was in that team so they weren't very good.

The Great Aukster wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Lets just forget the Ireland one even happened. In the same year Ireland had one of their closest runs against a New Zealand side ever losing by only a few points.

The previous year Ireland lost a tour 2-0 to Namibia. Neil Francis was in that team so they weren't very good.

The same year they should have made a WC semi final?

No, that was the same year Gordon Hamilton scored a try from a barnstorming run to grab the lead against the run of play, but they still couldn't keep Australia from winning the game in the last minute.

The Great Aukster wrote:No, that was the same year Gordon Hamilton scored a try from a barnstorming run to grab the lead against the run of play, but they still couldn't keep Australia from winning the game in the last minute.

Well if there was any intention was to de-legitimise my claims about Auckland's credentials in that period (and pretty much since the existence of the Auckland union) by stating that Ireland weren't particularly good, that Auckland team beat a B&I side who were unlucky to lose a series in NZ.

And Graham Henry coached that side. And then coached Auckland to the first two Super 12 titles and a third final. He was a class coach before he got the Welsh job.

chewed_mintie wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:No, that was the same year Gordon Hamilton scored a try from a barnstorming run to grab the lead against the run of play, but they still couldn't keep Australia from winning the game in the last minute.

Well if there was any intention was to de-legitimise my claims about Auckland's credentials in that period (and pretty much since the existence of the Auckland union) by stating that Ireland weren't particularly good, that Auckland team beat a B&I side who were unlucky to lose a series in NZ.

And Graham Henry coached that side.  And then coached Auckland to the first two Super 12 titles and a third final.  He was a class coach before he got the Welsh job.

Was he a class coach or was he working with class players? In all fairness when working with lower standard players Gatland has done a better job, no?

Auckland's credentials were impressive, but that could have been down to having a load of all time greats in the team like Kirwan, Fox, Fitzpatrick, Jones and Brooke, as much as Henry at the Helm?

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Finn Russell motm 2 weeks in a row against Racing metro, putting in an incredible attacking performance against one of the too teams in Europe.

He's certainly still a few injuries away from selection, but may be a dark horse given that we need good ball players to play in NZ!

Just got caught up on the games from the weekend.  The performance from Russell was probably the pick of the round, from the games I watched anyway.  The last few games have been the best I have ever seen him play.  In terms of pure skill level, he is right up there with the other contenders - of that I have absolutely no doubt.  Watch the pick up off his laces and the nudge over Andreu, from last weekend, or the 2 man miss-pass to DTH to score in corner in the dying few minutes against Ulster, in the 2015 Pro 12 semi final.  The lad can play.  

What he needs to do this 6N is prove that he can control a game from 10 when his pack are not so dominant.  I think one of the reasons that he hasn't shined as much in a Scotland jersey (although he has had some very good games), is due to the influence of Laidlaw.  Wee Greig tries to control the tempo of the game from 9, deciding when to kick, when to give it to the backline, when to form pods - everything goes through him, to the detriment of Russell's game.  The next step for Finn is to take some of the decision making into his own hands.

I think having Ali Price at 9 for Glasgow has been a big help for Russell last few games, he is the in form Scottish 9 and is scoring try's as well as playing a smart, quick game. Laidlaw will always be starting at 9 for Scotland however as he seems to be the man Cotter wants pulling all the strings.

bsando wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Finn Russell motm 2 weeks in a row against Racing metro, putting in an incredible attacking performance against one of the too teams in Europe.

He's certainly still a few injuries away from selection, but may be a dark horse given that we need good ball players to play in NZ!

Just got caught up on the games from the weekend.  The performance from Russell was probably the pick of the round, from the games I watched anyway.  The last few games have been the best I have ever seen him play.  In terms of pure skill level, he is right up there with the other contenders - of that I have absolutely no doubt.  Watch the pick up off his laces and the nudge over Andreu, from last weekend, or the 2 man miss-pass to DTH to score in corner in the dying few minutes against Ulster, in the 2015 Pro 12 semi final.  The lad can play.  

What he needs to do this 6N is prove that he can control a game from 10 when his pack are not so dominant.  I think one of the reasons that he hasn't shined as much in a Scotland jersey (although he has had some very good games), is due to the influence of Laidlaw.  Wee Greig tries to control the tempo of the game from 9, deciding when to kick, when to give it to the backline, when to form pods - everything goes through him, to the detriment of Russell's game.  The next step for Finn is to take some of the decision making into his own hands.

I think having Ali Price at 9 for Glasgow has been a big help for Russell last few games, he is the in form Scottish 9 and is scoring try's as well as playing a smart, quick game. Laidlaw will always be starting at 9 for Scotland however as he seems to be the man Cotter wants pulling all the strings.

Gloucester play better with Heinz rather than Laidlaw at nine.

Exiledinborders wrote:

bsando wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Finn Russell motm 2 weeks in a row against Racing metro, putting in an incredible attacking performance against one of the too teams in Europe.

He's certainly still a few injuries away from selection, but may be a dark horse given that we need good ball players to play in NZ!

Just got caught up on the games from the weekend.  The performance from Russell was probably the pick of the round, from the games I watched anyway.  The last few games have been the best I have ever seen him play.  In terms of pure skill level, he is right up there with the other contenders - of that I have absolutely no doubt.  Watch the pick up off his laces and the nudge over Andreu, from last weekend, or the 2 man miss-pass to DTH to score in corner in the dying few minutes against Ulster, in the 2015 Pro 12 semi final.  The lad can play.  

What he needs to do this 6N is prove that he can control a game from 10 when his pack are not so dominant.  I think one of the reasons that he hasn't shined as much in a Scotland jersey (although he has had some very good games), is due to the influence of Laidlaw.  Wee Greig tries to control the tempo of the game from 9, deciding when to kick, when to give it to the backline, when to form pods - everything goes through him, to the detriment of Russell's game.  The next step for Finn is to take some of the decision making into his own hands.

I think having Ali Price at 9 for Glasgow has been a big help for Russell last few games, he is the in form Scottish 9 and is scoring try's as well as playing a smart, quick game. Laidlaw will always be starting at 9 for Scotland however as he seems to be the man Cotter wants pulling all the strings.

Gloucester play better with Heinz rather than Laidlaw at nine.  

Are you saying that Heinz is full of beans?

No he's saying Glaws play better with 57 on the pitch.

Warren Gatland sets out ground rules for tour contenders

Monday, January 02, 2017  
By Simon Lewis
Rugby and Golf Correspondent

Warren Gatland has put his British & Irish Lions hopefuls on notice that there will be more to selection for next summer’s showdown with the All Blacks than pure playing ability.

The season-long audition process is well underway for a place on the plane for the tour and three-Test series with the world champions in New Zealand and a number of players have already put their hands up for inclusion with impressive performances during the November Test window, particularly those from Ireland and Grand Slam champions England.

Yet ticking the box as a talent to take on the All Blacks in their own half is only the baseline for Gatland and his assistants Rob Howley, Andy Farrell and Steve Borthwick.

If the 2017 Lions are to match only their 1971 predecessors and win a series in the land of the long white cloud then the men they take on the tour will have to have the necessary character to go with it.

“You want good people as well as good players,” Gatland said at Carton House as he named his assistant coaches in early December.

“Good characters will go on the Lions tour.

“We had a coaches meeting (the previous night), went through the autumn internationals, through the squads and players that have impressed us. One of the things I raised was about not just thinking about players but thinking about the right sort of people for the Lions, the right sort of characters, people that are going to fight for their positions, and how people might handle disappointment.

“The hardest thing coaching the Lions, you’ll always get one or two disgruntled players, people who feel like they haven’t had the opportunity and I saw that in 2013. There was one player who was pretty disappointed about not being selected for the first Test, threw his toys out of the cot but was able to regather himself. And then there were a couple of players on that tour that had had really, really good Six Nations campaigns and when they turned up in Australia, to me it seemed they were just quite happy to be part of the squad and weren’t fighting for to be the number one in their position.

“So we spoke about those instances and not just about performance and players but also about the person, the individual, the character, you know, how he’s going to cope on a Lions tour and what sort of impact he’s going to have both on and off the field.”

Of course, those sort of personality traits tends not to reveal themselves until it is too late and the touring party is already on the road, which only adds importance to the vetting process between now and the April 19 squad announcement.

“When we raised that at our meeting, the coaches were obviously thinking about that, you know, ‘he would be good as a tourist’, or ‘I’m not sure if he wasn’t selected as the number one, actually how positive he would be in the environment as a number two or a number three’.

“That’s a challenging thing sometimes for these players. Some of them are used to always being number one in their club side, have been since school and are number one in their country. Then you pick them in a Lions squad and all of a sudden, ‘oh’, they’re number two or number three. So it’s a real challenge for them how they handle that. That’s something we need and will do, is address that as a coaching set-up before they get on the plane.

“I wasn’t in charge in 2009 but there was a player in that last week, a very well recognised player who on the Thursday, he wasn’t involved in that last Test and he had been out on the Wednesday night, had a little bit too much to drink and didn’t turn up for training on the Thursday. He wouldn’t get out of bed. Now if I had been in 2009 I would have put him on the plane and sent him home. I would have said to him ‘explain to your family and to the rest of the rugby world why you weren’t prepared to come to training in the last week of the Lions tour’, which was pretty important.

“So I think they need to hear those sort of stories and understand how important that is.... It’s a tough gig and the thing with the Lions is that, it’s not just about performances on the field. If we get things right off the field and everyone knows where they stand then we’ve got a chance on the field.”

Nor is it just about the character of Gatland’s Lions. The Kiwi also learned a lot about the All Blacks during the November Test window, not least their two Tests against Ireland. As impressed as he was by the Irish performance to run in five tries at Soldier Field in Chicago for that historic first victory, Gatland took a lot of pointers from the way the world champions rebounded from a first loss in 19 matches to exact revenge in Dublin a fortnight later.

“I learned a lot,” he said, “obviously the All Blacks missing a couple of key players and how important the two second rows are to them. That Chicago game also probably showed their human side, how when they get put under a bit of pressure, like everyone else they can make mistakes. The All Blacks being so far behind at half-time, they looked like they were going to come back and win the game and then Ireland, their big moment in the game came when they moved the ball with confidence and Zebo’s kick ahead that caught Savea behind the line and then Robbie Henshaw scored from the set-piece.

“Ireland took a lot of their chances well, they kicked to the corners when they might have taken three points in the past, which was quite smart given the way the All Blacks played.

“Then the All Blacks, they’d taken external and internal criticism and they just turned up in Dublin and their whole focus there wasn’t about performance, it was just about winning the game. Ireland had all the territory and possession and they weren’t able to score any tries having scored five in Chicago. It just shows New Zealand have the ability and why they are the best team in the world. They can play rugby but if they have to they can turn up the physical element – I know there’s been a lot of criticism about that but I didn’t feel that they’d turned up to try and intimidate or be overly physical, you just know they can bring a physical element when it’s required.

“That’s one of the things I’ve taken from that from a Lions perspective, that when we need to we’ve got to try and match that physical element and I think the players here at the moment, potentially, there are a lot of areas in which we can compete.

“We’ve got players with speed, we got some size, some footwork and probably the biggest thing we’re going to have over an All Blacks team is that we’ll have three or four guys that are going to be better goal-kickers than they are.

“I look at that and think if there’s one area that’s going to decide a Lions series it’s going to come down to goal-kicking. Sometimes they can be at 100% and other times they are at 50% whereas we’ve got guys who are capable of regularly kicking over 90% and that’s pretty encouraging too.”

© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved

In short - strictly no dissenting voices on this tour.

No more smartass asides directed at the King. Obedience at all times. No whispers to the media, no online campaigns against the One True Leader..... etc etc etc...

In even shorter parlance. Sexy behave yourself and stop sulking!

I work with an ex-Member of the Welsh management team. He told me that that only reason that Andy Powell went on the SA Lions tour in 2009 was because he was a character! They had a space for another forward, reaslised that there were a lot of quite and serious characters on tour, and asked who might bring something else to the squad (I.e. Entertainment). They asked Gats and he said 'has to be Andy Powell'. Fair play, I think he performed his duties well on that tour if you listen to some of the comments from those that didn't really know him beforehand.

Zebo's on the plane then!

Paul O'Connell is quite informative about Gats as a Lions coach in his book 'The Battle'. Basically says that the latest generation of players are very quite and on the last Lions there was 'no scope for guys to bring their own ideas and opinions to the group' and that the dynamic on the last Lions 'couldn't have been further from that of the Munster team that I grew up in.''

Looks like Gats might have learned something from the last tour.

Actually, POC's book is worthy of a thread of its own as his view of the last 20 years of rugby is very informative.

edit: Alan Quinlan was also selected as he was a 'character' who would be good leading the dirt trackers. Also brilliant guy to cope with not being selected (he had a lot of practice at 2007 world cup)!

Was it Quinlan who missed the tour as he was banned? Or was that someone else? Shame as I was looking forward to seeing him for the Lions. Excellent player.

Griff wrote:Was it Quinlan who missed the tour as he was banned? Or was that someone else? Shame as I was looking forward to seeing him for the Lions. Excellent player.

Yes. Eye gouge on Leo Cullen. They could have done with him in SA.

Sin é wrote:Zebo's on the plane then!

Paul O'Connell is quite informative about Gats as a Lions coach in his book 'The Battle'. Basically says that the latest generation of players are very quite and on the last Lions there was 'no scope for guys to bring their own ideas and opinions to the group' and that the dynamic on the last Lions 'couldn't have been further from that of the Munster team that I grew up in.''

Looks like Gats might have learned something from the last tour.

Actually, POC's book is worthy of a thread of its own as his view of the last 20 years of rugby is very informative.

edit: Alan Quinlan was also selected as he was a 'character' who would be good leading the dirt trackers. Also brilliant guy to cope with not being selected (he had a lot of practice at 2007 world cup)!

I think it probably helps if you're a fan of O'Connell or Munster/Ireland. As a general rugby read it's pretty boring. He's not the most engaging 'author' (I'm assuming there was some ghost-writing too). There are far better rugby autobiographies out there, and certainly way better accounts of the Lions. I feel O'Connell is still very bitter about his Lions experiences and doesn't come across very well for that reason.

Only Lions tour he said he didn't enjoy was the 2005 Tour and I can't think of a player who had a good thing to say about that tour.

If you actually read the book properly you would know that it was written by Alan English.

Sin é wrote:Only Lions tour he said he didn't enjoy was the 2005 Tour and I can't think of a player who had a good thing to say about that tour.

If you actually read the book properly you would know that it was written by Alan English.

That's why I mentioned about the ghost-written stuff. Maybe Alan English is just a boring writer then and it's not Paulie's fault.

On the 2005 tour O'Connell's comments sound like those of a spoilt child, even down to smoking when he doesn't get his own way. Hope his teeth are ok now

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Haha. Lets just forget the Ireland one even happened. In the same year Ireland had one of their closest runs against a New Zealand side ever losing by only a few points.

Aha, so we can forget Chicago as an anomaly as well? Done

Looking through Gatlands comments I'd be very concerned about what he's saying publicly if that reflects what he's thinking.

It's too reflective, too reactive, too respectable, too measured and predictable..more Lancaster and less Jones, so to speak.

Of course he's correct in his interpretation of the status quo, the way the Chicago then Dublin matches evolved, the learnings from it.

The one thing Jones introduced that made a difference was that there was no point in being respectful of the opposition. It serves no purpose for the sides chances. He instilled in them a belief that they would beat Australia, and that wasn't done by 'understanding' them.

Now it's six months away he has that long to convince the entire U.K. And Irish rugby community that the team he picks is going to deal to the ABs, regardless of who he selects and that should have them all spitting tacks to get into the side that's going to do that. Because that's exactly what they have to do to beat them.

There's no need to have that level of 'understanding'. Get into their faces, put them under pressure etc etc but don't try and get into their heads, there's no point.

The Lions will not match NZ on a head to head basis in a NZ based series at either an individual skill level and certainly not collectively, because they have to 'gel' first as a side. So the types of performances they need to draw on are the Chicagos, the England in 2012, the Boks in 14, Oz in Sydney in 15 where the common factor was getting in their faces before they got off the ground.

The difficulty here is that at home there's no possible doubt the ABs won't be up for it and 45 straight wins at home is a daunting prospect. So any sign of fear...and I see being too respectful as similar... and it won't matter who they send.

Sin é wrote:

Griff wrote:Was it Quinlan who missed the tour as he was banned? Or was that someone else? Shame as I was looking forward to seeing him for the Lions. Excellent player.

Yes. Eye gouge on Leo Cullen. They could have done with him in SA.

Agree that Quinlan could have been useful in SA, he was in fantastic form for Munster that season. At the same time Joe Worsley did a very respectable job of taking on the role that Quinlan was originally picked to perform.

Tom Croft going on tour as a replacement for Quinlan didn't end too badly either.

This discussion would have been largely mute had Stephen Ferris not been injured prior to the 1st test though. Geech's response in the documentary DVD of that tour at the training session when Ferris was injured is telling, "he was there for me". Ferris had been outstanding in the warm-up games prior to injury and would have added something different to that back row and also something very needed against SA.

Swapping around back rows wouldn't have made much difference. O'Gara would still have found some way to lose the series for the Lions.

Croft, Phillips and Roberts were probably the players of the tour.

Cyril wrote:

Sin é wrote:Only Lions tour he said he didn't enjoy was the 2005 Tour and I can't think of a player who had a good thing to say about that tour.

If you actually read the book properly you would know that it was written by Alan English.

That's why I mentioned about the ghost-written stuff. Maybe Alan English is just a boring writer then and it's not Paulie's fault.

On the 2005 tour O'Connell's comments sound like those of a spoilt child, even down to smoking when he doesn't get his own way. Hope his teeth are ok now

What the hell does that mean? What was 'his way' he didn't get?

This place is full of chain smokers......

Did they say how big the squad will be?
Surely the first call for coaches is for them to select the top 3 candidates in each position and then discuss combinations and potential partnerships from than point -

That being the case, and from the limited games I have seen I would be thinking along a squad like this - (not in any order)
1. Mako V, Zander Fagerson, J.Marler
2.Hartley, R.Best, J.George
3.Furlong, WP Nel, D.Cole
4.I.Henderson,Itoje,Jonny Grey
5.Launchbury, AWJ, Kruis
6.Robshaw, Sean O'Brein, CJ Stander
7. Haskell, Tipuric, Warburton
8.Billy V, Heaslip, Felatu
9.C.Murray, B.Youngs, Gareth Davies/R.Webb
10.Sexton, Farrell, Fin Russell
11.J.Nowell, G.North, J.May
12.G.Ringrose, JD2, Eliot Daly
13.R.Henshaw, J.Joseph, Huw Jones
14.A.Watson, S.Maitland, L.Williams
15. M.Brown, S.Hogg, Jarred Payne

Cyril wrote:Swapping around back rows wouldn't have made much difference. O'Gara would still have found some way to lose the series for the Lions.

Croft, Phillips and Roberts were probably the players of the tour.

I was having a happy 2017 until you mentioned ROG in a Lions jersey. The image of him pointing and hoofing the ball in the air before giving away the daftest of daft penalties is forever emblazoned in my mind.

2009 is a frustrating Lions tour in retrospect. For many, myself included, it re-launched the Lions after the debacle of 2005 (and the disappointment of 2001), and yet you look back and wonder who on Earth that group of players failed to beat that South Africa team.

Cyril wrote:Swapping around back rows wouldn't have made much difference. O'Gara would still have found some way to lose the series for the Lions.

Croft, Phillips and Roberts were probably the players of the tour.

You are having a laugh with Croft - he was a show pony. Brian O'Driscoll showed more bottle and fight as a backrow than Croft did. Way too lightweight.

SA won the series because they took out all the Lions players that showed a bit of fight (including Ronan O'Gara who was left concussed on the pitch).

propdavid_london wrote:Did they say how big the squad will be?  
Surely the first call for coaches is for them to select the top 3 candidates in each position and then discuss combinations and potential partnerships from than point -

That being the case, and from the limited games I have seen I would be thinking along a squad like this - (not in any order)
1. Mako V, Zander Fagerson, J.Marler
2.Hartley, R.Best, J.George
3.Furlong, WP Nel, D.Cole
4.I.Henderson,Itoje,Jonny Grey
5.Launchbury, AWJ, Kruis
6.Robshaw, Sean O'Brein, CJ Stander
7. Haskell, Tipuric, Warburton
8.Billy V, Heaslip, Felatu
9.C.Murray, B.Youngs, Gareth Davies/R.Webb
10.Sexton, Farrell, Fin Russell
11.J.Nowell, G.North, J.May
12.G.Ringrose, JD2, Eliot Daly
13.R.Henshaw, J.Joseph, Huw Jones
14.A.Watson, S.Maitland, L.Williams
15. M.Brown, S.Hogg, Jarred Payne

A typical squad is around 38, (i.e. a midweek 15, a test 15 and a bench), so you'd need to knock around 7 players out of that, typically where there are players who can cover multiple positions. Probably a lock, a flanker or No 8, 2 wings, a fullback, a centre and maybe one other - possibly another centre given Farrell can cover 12.

Daly covers 13, wing and possibly 15 but not 12, so he could well travel but not in the position you've picked. North surely needs a Lions tour like a hole in the head? Launchbury is competing for a spot at 4, not 5, and you've a slight bias towards breakthrough players where I think Gatland will probably go with more experience (that said, I think Sinckler has an outside chance to overtake Cole). Otherwise, it's not a bad list.

A couple of comments from Paul O'Connell's book about Gatland/Lions to Aus.

First of all he said he was surprised to get selected as Gatland likes his locks to be 120kg+.

He said that he was selected to captain the Lions against the Ba-Bas in Hong Kong because they expected to lose and it wouldn't look good if Warburton (who was said to be carrying a bit of a knock) lead out a team that lost. Mind you, he didn't get AW Jones to captain it either. Before the Waratahs game, he told POC that AW Jones was starting the First Test and it was between him and Geoff Parling for the 2nd lock position.

He said Gats was always playing mind games (and he was very good at it). Here is a quote from the book:

POC wrote:'He came over to me one day and I swear he was trying to do a job on me mentally, for the next time Wales played Ireland. Mind games were part of what he brought to the table and his track record showed he was good at playing them.
'Have you noticed how incredibly fit the Welsh boys are?'
'I dunno about that, Gats. I'd love to do a fitness test against them.'

If Gatland is returning to coach Wales, the Lions will be full of Welsh players with a few guest spots for the likes of Billy V., Owen Farrell & Tadgh Furling. CJ Stander might get a look in as he isn't Irish.

O'Connell sounds as paranoid as some of the posters on here.

They expected to lose that Barbarians game? They absolutely smashed them by over 50 points!

Agree with that Poorfour, yeah this was a starting thought for final selection - and Ive got my opensides and blindside numbers muddled in a few places.
Also agree that Gats will probably select more of the established players - but in recent Nov tests 'generally' the better performers were still youngsters - particularly the young Irish lads.
Are there any bolters that you think the coaches might select? Is Wade likely to get a surprise call up?

There are so many good players that ive not mentioned too - Lawes, Zebo, Earls, Halfpenny....

Cyril wrote:O'Connell sounds as paranoid as some of the posters on here.

They expected to lose that Barbarians game? They absolutely smashed them by over 50 points!

Would you mind answering this question first please?

What was 'his way' he didn't get?

Surely it was Gatland & his coaching team who were paranoid if they expected to lose to the Ba-Bas in Hong Kong?

Sin é wrote:

If Gatland is returning to coach Wales, the Lions will be full of Welsh players with a few guest spots for the likes of Billy V., Owen Farrell & Tadgh Furling. CJ Stander might get a look in as he isn't Irish.

Not sure I agree with you here Sin é. Gatland is a good coach and will want to win so I would expect the Lions (on current form) to be dominated by English and Irish players with the odd Scot and Welsh player thrown in.

There is always this expectation that the loyalties of the coaching team will be tested when selecting a Lions squad!
Gatland dropping BOD for JD2 and so on.
Woodwards massive squad of 2005.

A team of Gats, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick has experience, past success to draw on - Howley for me is the only strange decision as he hasn't really managed to fire the Welsh attack of recent years! However there is enough experience from every union (barring Scotland) to have fair representation - you would hope.

And for me there are a number of Scts that are putting their hands up for selection even if the selectors don't have insight into their training sessions.

propdavid_london wrote: Howley for me is the only strange decision  

Hes the only one who knows how to use a laptop and someone has to keep an eye on Twitter

propdavid_london wrote:There is always this expectation that the loyalties of the coaching team will be tested when selecting a Lions squad!
Gatland dropping BOD for JD2 and so on.  
Woodwards massive squad of 2005.  

A team of Gats, Farrell, Howley and Borthwick has experience, past success to draw on - Howley for me is the only strange decision as he hasn't really managed to fire the Welsh attack of recent years! However there is enough experience from every union (barring Scotland) to have fair representation - you would hope.  

And for me there are a number of Scts that are putting their hands up for selection even if the selectors don't have insight into their training sessions.  

I think Howley is a good technical coach - I seem to recall Conor Murray saying he learned a lot from him on the last tour. Otherwise, I'd say that Howley is the only backs coach around that could probably work with Gats. I'd imagine Joe Schmidt & Gregor Townsend decided to run a mile.

Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

Yep, plus it only takes one coach to tell Jamie Roberts to just run as hard as possible in a straight line.

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Are you suggesting that Townsend was first choice and Howley second choice?

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Daily Mail Headline (latest edition): "Welsh buffoon and probable KKK racist womaniser, Griff, accuses Us of spouting Hatred and Lies!"

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Are you suggesting that Townsend was first choice and Howley second choice?

I'm suggesting that it wasn't true at all, as it came from a newspaper that is renowned for making stuff up. I would have expected it to come out through many more media outlets too if true. The 'good' newspapers, the BBC, etc. would all have run with the story, surely? One tweet does not make it true. I want more evidence!

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Daily Mail Headline (latest edition):  "Welsh buffoon and probable KKK racist womaniser, Griff, accuses Us of spouting Hatred and Lies!"

I liked that so gave you one of those '+' things!

Griff wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Are you suggesting that Townsend was first choice and Howley second choice?

I'm suggesting that it wasn't true at all, as it came from a newspaper that is renowned for making stuff up.  I would have expected it to come out through many more media outlets too if true.  The 'good' newspapers, the BBC, etc. would all have run with the story, surely?  One tweet does not make it true.  I want more evidence!

What wasn't true? That Townsend was offered the role of attack/coach, and to be in charge of those aspects, or that Townsend was offered the role of Howley's assistant?

It was widely reported, including by the Telegraph, BBC and Guardian, that Townsend was offered "a role" with the Lions, and that he turned it down. Gatland has done on record stating his disappointment with Townsend's decision, and that Townsend has made a mistake. I'm assuming therefore that the story you don't believe is that the role was to support Howley, and therefore by extension that Howley was Gatland's second choice for the job.

It's all Fake News innit!  You couldn't believe a word from any of 'em.  That's why I invent most of my own news - at least it's trustworthy.

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

IanBru wrote:Wasn't the story that Townsend was offered the role of being an assistant to Howley and he rightly told them to 'get lost'?

It was never more than a tweet by a Daily Mail journo. The same Daily Mail that spouts hatred and lies on pretty much any topic written!

Daily Mail Headline (latest edition):  "Welsh buffoon and probable KKK racist womaniser, Griff, accuses Us of spouting Hatred and Lies!"

I liked that so gave you one of those '+' things!

I liked the "probable", as well as the addition of "womaniser" in the list (is that a bad thing necessarily?).

I also didn't know that buffoons resided in Wales, although I have long suspected.