6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

LordDowlais wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Launchbury looked really out of shape to me.

If looking like that is what looking out of shape is, then feck me, we are all fat barstewards.

You must be like a Greek god then Guns ?

He did look lethargic on the pitch and pale when he came off. He's usually a very reliable performer though.

Haskell was the best player in England's win against Wales in 2015.

Hopefully he can have a similar impact this year though not running into posts this time...

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; George North, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Samson Lee, Cory Hill, Taulupe Faletau, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Jamie Roberts.

That is a surprisingly very good team picked for Saturday, now lets see how Howley buggers it up.

So just the change at TH then.

I guess Charteris didn't make the cut due to fitness.

I think the prop swap is a good call.

Scottrf wrote:So just the change at TH then.

Both props had the axe

Scottrf wrote:So just the change at TH then.

And LH

miaow wrote:
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales, they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013, and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

True Raven wrote:

Scottrf wrote:So just the change at TH then.

Both props had the axe

Obviously don't pay enough attention to the fat lads.

Scottrf wrote:

True Raven wrote:I'm going to get hammered for saying this but Ford is your English Priestland.  Behind a strong pack he can thrive but if the pack is going backwards so does Ford at a rate of knots.

Not sure you'll get hammered, that's the conventional wisdom regarding Ford.

The Bath pack are quite often on the back foot and it is only ever Ford who somehow keeps us in those games. He just drops deeper and his kicking out of hand is not exactly shabby.....

Recwatcher16 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

True Raven wrote:I'm going to get hammered for saying this but Ford is your English Priestland.  Behind a strong pack he can thrive but if the pack is going backwards so does Ford at a rate of knots.

Not sure you'll get hammered, that's the conventional wisdom regarding Ford.

The Bath pack are quite often on the back foot and it is only ever Ford who somehow keeps us in those games. He just drops deeper and his kicking out of hand is not exactly shabby.....

It'll be Faletau doing that for you when hes back.

munkian wrote:It'll be Faletau doing that for you when hes back.

Dropping deeper and kicking out of hand? Not sure about that tactic.

Good team. It's the team I predicted, with only a slight query over Ken Owens or Baldwin, but can't complain. Disappointed Charteris isn't fit. Cory Hill must step up when he comes on to replace Ball, it'll be the biggest game of his life so far by some margin. Likewise Samson and, in particular, Nicky Smith need to be mentally strong enough to get up for this game and put everything into the scrums as and when they come on. They need to bridge whatever gap they lack in fitness and technique respectively with sheer force of will.

Don't rule out the possibility of a late injury withdrawal for anyone, particularly North or Biggar.

miaow wrote:Good team. It's the team I predicted, with only a slight query over Ken Owens or Baldwin, but can't complain. Disappointed Charteris isn't fit. Cory Hill must step up when he comes on to replace Ball, it'll be the biggest game of his life so far by some margin. Likewise Samson and, in particular, Nicky Smith need to be mentally strong enough to get up for this game and put everything into the scrums as and when they come on.

Don't rule out the possibility of a late injury withdrawal for anyone, particularly North or Biggar.

What do you think of the England team? Particularly Jonathan Joseph's defense?

Poorfour wrote:

miaow wrote:  
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.  

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales,  they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013,  and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

That was before clock-stoppages were introduced of course, so was in injury time.

Test Biggars ribs and Norths dead leg early on then we should walk it.

Potential impact players on the bench for Wales fairly limited, just Faletau and Sam Davies. I don't get Roberts on the bench, what would you change by bringing him on? Would be better to have someone covering the back 3, surely (at a pinch Biggar or North can move into the centre).

Not a bad first XV, though.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What do you think of the England team? Particularly Jonathan Joseph's defense?

Quietly confident that Tipuric and in particular Warburton are breakdown specialists who can counter an area where England just bulldozed Wales last year. It's important to counter their brutality with technical ability. That said, the physical threat they pose with ball in hand is always going to be a worry. Add in Jack Nowell who's a tricky little winger, and they've got the subtlety to finish off the field position their size and strength often creates.

It'll be a big ask for Wales. Mental strength will be the difference between winning and losing, for either team. England are confident, but must fear their brash mantle slipping slightly after last week, and that may be exacerbated if Wales start growing into the game around 55 minutes as they ususally do and there's a crescendo from the crowd. You simply never quite know with Wales how much self belief they have. I hope AWJ's captaincy will in part reduce what has felt at times like a team low on self belief, even when they shouldn't be.

Faletau is only behind Liam Williams and Tipuric in terms of skill as a rugby player in the settled Welsh team (Sam Davies not quite at that status yet, hasn't proved himself at Test level, but I'm sure he will). What a wonderful player to bring off the bench, which we'll need considering the power of England's replacements.

I think Jonathan Jospeh is a big danger to Wales as a defender, primarily during transitions from defence to attack. If Wales turn the ball over in the midfield or out wide, he has the jinking ability and pace to break that first cover defender, find space, and be away. He showed his qualities two years ago in Cardiff. So we can't risk throwing intercept passes to him, or knocking the ball on, or generally getting isolated where they can quickly get the ball to him, especially with the pace of Nowell, Daly, and May alongside him. In terms of how we attack him, I'd say you test his positioning and relative lack of size. That means, when it's tight, get Jonathan Davies using his hand off to gain a few yards against him as he's very able to do. Scott Williams is a mazy runner at times, with speed and strength, and so running at him and looking for a safe offload out of the tackle if it's on may be an option. The most likely headway we may get with Jospeh, however, is by bringing North and Liam Williams back into him on a semi-blind or 'cute' angle: test his positioning relative to Farrell and his winger, test his shoulders, particularly on the inside. Whilst I'd be wary of doing so frequently, I also think Wales will look for plenty of little diagonal grubber kicks in behind the three quarters, getting Daly, Nowell, and Joseph to turn and have our outside backs breathing down their necks. Done well, this is an great tactic, done poorly and you're giving them that transition ball that I'm wary of.

In short, only move it wide against Jospeh when the team has genuine options (going forward up front so could in theory keep it tight, could kick over/through, could go wide) that keeps him on the back foot. If we move it wide 'artificially', he has the pace to eat up any wayward pass or isolated attacker.

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

miaow wrote:  
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.  

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales,  they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013,  and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

That was before clock-stoppages were introduced of course, so was in injury time.

No, it's always been the case that a rugby game can't end until the ball goes out of play legally. There was no injury time added - England just kept possession for a long string of phases battering the Aussie line before Balshaw's moment of genius/madness.

Winzer wrote:Potential impact players on the bench for Wales fairly limited, just Faletau and Sam Davies.  I don't get Roberts on the bench, what would you change by bringing him on?  Would be better to have someone covering the back 3, surely (at a pinch Biggar or North can move into the centre).

Not a bad first XV, though.

Agree to an extent, though I'd add Gareth Davies's pace in there as well. He's an out and out try scorer if that's what we need. I also criticise Roberts at #23, but can see why you'd have him for this game considering England could go to a backline of Farrell at 10 and Te'o at 12 as mentioned above. If North is fit enough to play 80 minutes, then he, Halfpenny, and Liam Williams shouldn't need replacing. The worry is if there's an injury, and Scott Williams has to get shunted to the wing early on, making our midfield quite immobile, something Ford could prey on should England get a platform.

Poorfour wrote:

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

miaow wrote:  
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.  

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales,  they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013,  and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

That was before clock-stoppages were introduced of course, so was in injury time.

No, it's always been the case that a rugby game can't end until the ball goes out of play legally. There was no injury time added - England just kept possession for a long string of phases battering the Aussie line before Balshaw's moment of genius/madness.

The bold bit is correct, but there was still injury time because they didn't used to stop the clock during the game as they do now. England didn't keep the ball in play for 9 minutes.

I've just watched highlights here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SC_TLHlReI

What was that kick to touch that was missed by the Australians? Presumably a free kick that would have given the England the lineout, but by the time it was set and the ball back into play, the 'proper 80 minutes' would have been up?

In any case, great end to a game of Rugby.

Pre-Lions 2001 Balshaw was a joy to watch. Such a shame that he never quite got back to that level.

As much as I dislike Howley I feel I must offer him some praise for dropping the starting props from last week. Smith and Lee were shown up by the Italians and were hauled off together after 50 mins. Francis and Rob Evans came on and the scrum instantly improved. Gatland probably would have given Lee and Smith another go to 'redeem themselves'. He was renowned for it and was often criticized on these boards for always giving someone a chance to make ammends, even when woefully out of form. Howley has been decisive there. However, the down side is that we know we have a bit of a prop weakness on the bench! I'm hoping that giving them the axe will fire them up to prove Howley wrong so that when they inevitably come on later in the game they're playing like mad men.

Personally I reckon either Biggar or North, or both, will not make it to the start of the game. Just a feeling I've got. Maybe mind games by Howley in terms of England's analysis and plans. Although I'm sure England will prepare properly and analyse our subs too.

Worried about the lack of backs cover on the bench. If Biggar does start and is quickly injured by a Haskell rib tickler then Davies goes to 10. If we then also lose a wing or full back we're stuffed. I'm not convinced by Faletau on the bench either. I know he's been almost superhuman in the past, but he's starting to look much more mortal since he joined Bath. He'll be rusty no doubt.

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

miaow wrote:  
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.  

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales,  they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013,  and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

That was before clock-stoppages were introduced of course, so was in injury time.

No, it's always been the case that a rugby game can't end until the ball goes out of play legally. There was no injury time added - England just kept possession for a long string of phases battering the Aussie line before Balshaw's moment of genius/madness.

The bold bit is correct, but there was still injury time because they didn't used to stop the clock during the game as they do now. England didn't keep the ball in play for 9 minutes.

Strictly speaking there is no injury time now and has never been. The clock is stopped and restarted and each half ends at the first non-penalty stoppage after forty minutes.

As for what happened in the past surely referees have always had stopwatches as they do in non-elite rugby. All that changed with the clock is that a timekeeper took over from the referee and TV viewers now see the timekeepers clock.

Griff wrote:As much as I dislike Howley I feel I must offer him some praise for dropping the starting props from last week.

Serious question, but what's happened to Lee? When he first on the international scene he was the next big thing, future Lions certainty etc etc. Looked the part in the few games I saw him too. I understand he's had limited game time recently but that shouldn't make him a bad scrumager? Maybe have some impact as he'd be blowing but not enough to account for the showing last weekend surely?

Francis will do a job for you in the set piece but not that much else. At Exeter this season he's not been in the first 23 when their other TH options have been available yet just about every Welshman on here wanted him to start this week. Not a great refection on Lee.

He hasn't been the same since he returned from injury

B91212 wrote:

Griff wrote:As much as I dislike Howley I feel I must offer him some praise for dropping the starting props from last week.

Serious question, but what's happened to Lee? When he first on the international scene he was the next big thing, future Lions certainty etc etc. Looked the part in the few games I saw him too. I understand he's had limited game time recently but that shouldn't make him a bad scrumager?

He's a bit old school, Samson. If he's not playing- and he's suffered quite a few injuries that have stopped him putting any decent run of games together for club or country since before the RWC- then his conditioning goes out the window. Think Ricky Hatton pre-training camp.

Samson definitely requires game time to be match ready. We're used to dropping players in after long lay offs and them performing well despite any match fitness: Samson isn't one of those. I'd expect him to look much better by the end of the tournmanet. As for his effectiveness in the scrums, that's partly down to the law changes that have made it hard for old school tight heads like him and Adam Jones. He's young enought to adapt, but he doesn't offer nearly as much as Francis in the loose (which isn't a lot, but he's improved significantly in 18 months) to justify his selection unless he's dominating in the scrum.

A few weeks with the squad, and playing Test match rugby, and I'd hope to see a different Samson than the one against Italy.

Exiledinborders wrote:

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

thomh wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

miaow wrote:  
You can spend 79 minutes leading a game, even 80 in Rugby Union, and yet still lose come the final whistle.  

89 minutes. England v Australia, Twickenham 2001. Balshaw chips over the goal line defence. Luger gets a hand on it first. Happened right in front of me. L

But equally, I've seen teams broken so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were never going to come back. All credit to Wales,  they did that (with a little Walsh assistance) in 2013,  and I have never seen them give up chasing the game.

That was before clock-stoppages were introduced of course, so was in injury time.

No, it's always been the case that a rugby game can't end until the ball goes out of play legally. There was no injury time added - England just kept possession for a long string of phases battering the Aussie line before Balshaw's moment of genius/madness.

The bold bit is correct, but there was still injury time because they didn't used to stop the clock during the game as they do now. England didn't keep the ball in play for 9 minutes.

Strictly speaking there is no injury time now and has never been.  The clock is stopped and restarted and each half ends at the first non-penalty stoppage after forty minutes.

As for what happened in the past surely referees have always had stopwatches as they do in non-elite rugby. All that changed with the clock is that a timekeeper took over from the referee and TV viewers now see the timekeepers clock.

Sorry if unclear - I'm aware there isn't now. My point was just that, of the 9 minutes by which that game overran, the majority was attributable to time added on as a result of the clock not stopping. It's not like England retained possession for 9 minutes after the 80 was up.

B91212 wrote:

Griff wrote:As much as I dislike Howley I feel I must offer him some praise for dropping the starting props from last week.

Serious question, but what's happened to Lee? When he first on the international scene he was the next big thing, future Lions certainty etc etc. Looked the part in the few games I saw him too. I understand he's had limited game time recently but that shouldn't make him a bad scrumager? Maybe have some impact as he'd be blowing but not enough to account for the showing last weekend surely?

Francis will do a job for you in the set piece but not that much else. At Exeter this season he's not been in the first 23 when their other TH options have been available yet just about every Welshman on here wanted him to start this week. Not a great refection on Lee.

He needs to seriously lose some weight for a start. I know he has been injured, but he is so out of shape it is unreal. When he was younger he was a lot slimmer, OK I know he was never a small one, but since he has come back from injury he has just ballooned.

TightHEAD wrote:Test Biggars ribs and Norths dead leg early on then we should walk it.

Sad but to be expected from these quarters when desperation starts to kick in.

An improvement on attacking ethnicity i suppose, but we'll target a player's characteristics, like the petulant Hartley, before we start targeting players injuries.

I find it can be quite hard to call props' scrummaging abilities; like Lee, Francis appears strong in one game and then to struggle in the next. I assume it is about different opponents shapes and styles giving different props different challenges, and what is going on in the scrums more generally (2nd rows, wheeling etc), and also about reffing of the scrums. I have some sympathy with Vickery on that SA Lions tour, getting a pasting because the ref let his opposite number get away with murder, but he was a good prop. I think Lee is the better player between him and Francis.

Winzer wrote:I find it can be quite hard to call props' scrummaging abilities; like Lee, Francis appears strong in one game and then to struggle in the next...I have some sympathy with Vickery on that SA Lions tour, getting a pasting because the ref let his opposite number get away with murder, but he was a good prop...

Yes, reffing makes all the difference these days. Back in the olden days, it was up to the front row to sort itself out, and it was a genuine contest to see who was the better scrummager. Graham Price was lighter than most of his opposing LHs, but his technique was fantastic - he tried out all sorts of tricks until he found one that his oppo couldn't handle. Nowadays, the props are playing the ref, not their opponent.

Roof to stay open, so Eddie does care after all.

I have to post this comment from the BBC article - it's brilliant:

Dean wrote:Yet another deeply conservative side chosen by Rob "No Risks" Howley. Wales will look to start carefully and then get slower by injecting Jamie Roberts into the mix late on. Sam Davies will get on with Wales 22 points behind and 7 minutes remaining. The two props out-scrummaged by Italy will come on after 50 minutes to give England a steady stream of penalties to close the game down. Depressing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38919198

Thank you everyone for the answers regarding Lee. I understand the fitness issue with Lee, Kieron Brooks is exactly the same in regards to losing conditioning very quickly when not playing (and unfortunately sometimes even when fit). I did wonder if Lee was maybe a prop who relied on the hit to some extent and is taking longer to adapt than some but if his conditioning is no good then the rest is pretty irrelevant. Interesting point on ref interpretation making some props seem world beaters one week and a weak link the next. When you think about it then it's a little depressing of what has become of the scrum compared to older times.

If he needs some games under his (ever expanding) belt then who is next in line so he can be released back to Scarlets? No offensive but if Francis is the next cab off the lot then I assume it's currently not a position of great strength in depth?

Gwlad wrote:Roof to stay open, so Eddie does care after all.

What's the weather forecast looking like? If it is for dry and still then I can understand it as the potential greasy surface doesn't become an issue but if it's wet and windy then I'm disappointed. Even as an England fan I want to see a spectacle, not a mud fest arm wrestle.

Don't buy into the atmosphere thing too much. It's going to be hostile and pro-welsh anyway, Wales are at home. Best way to quieten a partisan crowd is by your actions on the field, not by if the roof is open or not.

no rain forecast

have you ever been inside the stadium with the roof closed?

No. Only been the once and it was open.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to post this comment from the BBC article - it's brilliant:

Dean wrote:Yet another deeply conservative side chosen by Rob "No Risks" Howley. Wales will look to start carefully and then get slower by injecting Jamie Roberts into the mix late on. Sam Davies will get on with Wales 22 points behind and 7 minutes remaining. The two props out-scrummaged by Italy will come on after 50 minutes to give England a steady stream of penalties to close the game down. Depressing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38919198

That is so true. Good post.

Gwlad wrote:Roof to stay open, so Eddie does care after all.

Just seen on bbc sport roof is closed for this game.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Roof to stay open, so Eddie does care after all.

Just seen on bbc sport roof is closed for this game.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38918169

Article says open

The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

The one with a link I suspect Madge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/3891919

Have a look at this one.

majesticimperialman wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/3891919

Have a look at this one.

Don't bother it as gone awol.

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Didn't see it coming. Jones never says one thing then promptly does another.