6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

First topic message reminder :


WALES v ENGLAND 
11 February 2017
KO:16:50 GMT
Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Live on [ITV, RTE, SC4, FR2, DMAX / BBC (H)]

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gauzere (France) & Nick Briant (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
57 Won 60
12 Drawn 12
60 Lost 57
1,673 Points 1,518

B. Recent Form 

29 May 2016: Twickenham, London
27 – 13 to England
2016 mid-year rugby union internationals

12 March 2016: Twickenham, London
25 – 21 to England
2016 Six Nations Championship

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London
25 – 28 to Wales
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A

26 September 2015: Twickenham, London 
25 – 28 to Wales 
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool A 

6 February 2015: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
16 – 21 to England 
2015 Six Nations 

9 March 2014: Twickenham Stadium, London 
29 – 18 to England 
2014 Six Nations 

16 March 2013: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
30 – 3 to Wales 
2013 Six Nations 

25 February 2012: Twickenham Stadium, London 
12 – 19 to Wales 
2012 Six Nations

13 August 2011: Millennium Stadium, Cardiff 
19 – 9 to Wales 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

6 August 2011: Twickenham, London 
23 – 19 to England 
2011 Rugby World Cup warm up test 

C. Teams

WALES

15-Leigh Halfpenny, 14-George North, 13-Jonathan Davies, 12-Scott Williams, 11-Liam Williams, 10-Dan Biggar, 9-Rhys Webb; 1-Rob Evans, 2-Ken Owens, 3-Tomas Francis, 4-Jake Ball, 5-Alun Wyn Jones, 6-Sam Warburton, 7-Justin Tipuric; 8-Ross Moriarty.

Replacements: 16-Scott Baldwin, 17-Nicky Smith, 18-Samson Lee, 19-Cory Hill, 20-Taulupe Faletau, 21-Gareth Davies, 22-Sam Davies, 23-Jamie Roberts.

ENGLAND

15-Mike Brown, 14-Jack Nowell, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly, 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Jack Clifford, 8-Nathan Hughes.

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler, 19-Tom Wood, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jonny May.

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Did you or any other Welsh person really think it was going to be closed?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see it coming. Jones never says one thing then promptly does another.

Exactly

BBC sites def says roof OPEN.

As for the weather forecast... good chance of SNOW

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That's the longest bad word I ever heard.

No9 wrote:BBC sites def says roof OPEN.

As for the weather forecast... good chance of SNOW

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No longer a bad word

Disgusting!

I was okay when I didn't know what it was but now that I do.................

I guess that with Biggar still to prove fitness that if Biggar doesn't make it Sam Davies will be promoted to start with Owen Williams coming on to the bench.

I thought Biggar and North had passed fitness test for England and was selected for the game?

Is their still doubt over Biggars fitness?

majesticimperialman wrote:I thought Biggar and North had passed fitness test for England and was selected for the game?

Is their still doubt over Biggars fitness?

"The pair are recovering from leg and rib blows and will be given until match day to prove their fitness."

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38919198

B91212 wrote:Thank you everyone for the answers regarding Lee. I understand the fitness issue with Lee, Kieron Brooks is exactly the same in regards to losing conditioning very quickly when not playing (and unfortunately sometimes even when fit). I did wonder if Lee was maybe a prop who relied on the hit to some extent and is taking longer to adapt than some but if his conditioning is no good then the rest is pretty irrelevant. Interesting point on ref interpretation making some props seem world beaters one week and a weak link the next. When you think about it then it's a little depressing of what has become of the scrum compared to older times.

If he needs some games under his (ever expanding) belt then who is next in line so he can be released back to Scarlets? No offensive but if Francis is the next cab off the lot then I assume it's currently not a position of great strength in depth?

I actually think Lee was pretty average to start off with - its just that there isn't much competition (hence getting Francis 'once went camping in west Wales as a kid' on board).

Not saying he couldn't turn into a very good prop. I mean - Adam Jones wasn't much use when he first started playing internationals. But props normally tend to take a while to mature. Marler is another example - stella U20 player - OK at best when he first started playing for the seniors and now pretty decent.

nathan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see it coming. Jones never says one thing then promptly does another.

Exactly

I guess Eddie's worried his ever expanding head may just out grow the stadium. Better to be safe than sorry.  

Gwlad wrote:

nathan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't see it coming. Jones never says one thing then promptly does another.

Exactly

I guess Eddie's worried his ever expanding head may just out grow the stadium. Better to be safe than sorry.  

I'm sure if Gats bonce fits in EJs can

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

WOL saying Cuthbert is in for North #30-03

cascough wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:The roof at the Principality Stadium will be closed for the match at the request of England coach Eddie Jones.

Which one is true?

He has made a request for it to be OPEN not CLOSED as reported by the BBC, having previously made a big charade about not being bothered and leading Wales to believe to will therefore remain closed, at the last minute he's made it clear he's very bothered and has changed his mind.

Let's be clear, he hasn't requested anything. He has simply failed to grant Wales' request.

Rugby is an outdoor sport and so Wales have had to request special dispensation to play the game indoors. This has not been granted. How on earth it is consistently the opposition that get labelled as somehow doing something wrong or out of the ordinary here is beyond me.

Well said.

Please God tell me WOL has this wrong and Cuthbert is not starting. There HAS to be a better fit wing in Wales. Stef Evans? I am quite depressed.

munkian wrote:WOL saying Cuthbert is in for North #30-03

Nowell will be itching to get out there! Tries aplenty

GeordieFalcon wrote:

munkian wrote:WOL saying Cuthbert is in for North #30-03

Nowell will be itching to get out there! Tries aplenty

30-3. That will be the number of mistakes to good things that Cuthbert does in the game. We're doomed. They'll deliberately target his wing (and rightly so) and will have a field day.

tatterd wrote:Please God tell me WOL has this wrong and Cuthbert is not starting. There HAS to be a better fit wing in Wales. Stef Evans? I am quite depressed.

Oh yes. But Cuthbert's played for Wales before. Apparently that trumps everything else.

I must have drifted off to sleep there and had a bit of a nightmare, dreaming that Cuthbert had been selected for tomorrow's match! Imagine!

Back in reality:

There doesn't seem to be a Wales U20s or a women's rugby thread, so just to mention that the U20s game v England is at the Parc Eirias tonight, televised on BBC2 Wales from 7PM.

The women's match is at the CAP at 11.30 tomorrow morning, also televised live on BBC2 Wales

Even though Gatland isn't coaching in Cardiff, its good to see a SH coach still talk nonsense about this fixture

He's coming across even more of a Mr Winklechops than Gatland does in his interviews.

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:I must have drifted off to sleep there and had a bit of a nightmare, dreaming that Cuthbert had been selected for tomorrow's match! Imagine!

Back in reality:

There doesn't seem to be a Wales U20s or a women's rugby thread, so just to mention that the U20s game v England is at the Parc Eirias tonight, televised on BBC2 Wales from 7PM.

The women's match is at the CAP at 11.30 tomorrow morning, also televised live on BBC2 Wales

Both had a decent start last week. Let's hope the U20s can build on last seasons effort.

maestegmafia wrote:

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:I must have drifted off to sleep there and had a bit of a nightmare, dreaming that Cuthbert had been selected for tomorrow's match! Imagine!

Back in reality:

There doesn't seem to be a Wales U20s or a women's rugby thread, so just to mention that the U20s game v England is at the Parc Eirias tonight, televised on BBC2 Wales from 7PM.

The women's match is at the CAP at 11.30 tomorrow morning, also televised live on BBC2 Wales

Both had a decent start last week. Let's hope the U20s can build on last seasons effort.

It's a completely different team now. This has a lot of last years under 18 graduates.

North is OUT.

Class

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-questions-whether-wales-12584021

Game is won upfront not by backs, if we don't get parity it won't matter who plays on the wing.

You've got plenty to say tightHEAD. Wonder if you'll be back on this board if Engerland lose..............

TightHEAD wrote:Class

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-questions-whether-wales-12584021

He's a nutter but he's our nutter.

I still don't get why anyone takes what he says in public remotely seriously. The serious talk is done on the pitch and he's not doing too badly so far..

Cuthbert. Expect a lot of kicks to land right behind where he is standing....

lostinwales wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Class

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-questions-whether-wales-12584021

He's a nutter but he's our nutter.

I still don't get why anyone takes what he says in public remotely seriously. The serious talk is done on the pitch and he's not doing too badly so far..

Cuthbert. Expect a lot of kicks to land right behind where he is standing....

Its strange how that when Lancaster had the job a lot of English posters berated Gatland for what came out of his mouth, now England have their own gobsh!te its all fun and games

It's fine if you're winning IMO.

True Raven wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Class

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-questions-whether-wales-12584021

He's a nutter but he's our nutter.

I still don't get why anyone takes what he says in public remotely seriously. The serious talk is done on the pitch and he's not doing too badly so far..

Cuthbert. Expect a lot of kicks to land right behind where he is standing....

Its strange how that when Lancaster had the job a lot of English posters berated Gatland for what came out of his mouth, now England have their own gobsh!te its all fun and games

Its strange how that when Lancaster had the job a lot of Welsh posters defended Gatland for what came out of his mouth, now England have their own gobsh!te its a hangable offence

True Raven wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Class

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-questions-whether-wales-12584021

He's a nutter but he's our nutter.

I still don't get why anyone takes what he says in public remotely seriously. The serious talk is done on the pitch and he's not doing too badly so far..

Cuthbert. Expect a lot of kicks to land right behind where he is standing....

Its strange how that when Lancaster had the job a lot of English posters berated Gatland for what came out of his mouth, now England have their own gobsh!te its all fun and games

Well maybe we see the logic of it now but didn't before. It always seems more upsetting for the opposition as it were.

What is interesting with EJ is that he's very careful about what he says about his own players. He doesn't do it a lot but when he does it's usually a challenge to get better. Most of the guff he comes out with is about the opposition and tends to take the media attention away from the team and on to him. I think he demands a lot from his players but is also keen to protect them too.

tatterd wrote:You've got plenty to say tightHEAD. Wonder if you'll be back on this board if Engerland lose..............

Why wouldn't I?

I'm a rugby fan.

I'm also not Irish!

Good odds on Cuthbert scoring the winning try!

TightHEAD wrote:Good odds on Cuthbert scoring the winning try!

You'd be throwing your money away then as according to the press conference today, North is still playing

I don't understand why anybody takes any notice of what any coach says, all that matters at the end of the day is what the players do on the pitch.

Agree with Scottrfr

As long as Jones gets results then his mind games before the game will be put up with.

Hartley is in a similar position, as long as he keeps being part of a winning team, the calls to have him dropped will be in the minority. It's irrelevant if he's putting in a 5 or 6/10 performances as his "captaincy" and "leadership" are so valued.

I just hope Jones is willing to take off his golden boy if things aren't going to plan.

Fortunately for England we do in my opinion have better impact players than we did when we lost to Wales in the RWC, aside from Wood.

I kind of hope we don't need to bring Wood on.

True Raven wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Good odds on Cuthbert scoring the winning try!

You'd be throwing your money away then as according to the press conference today, North is still playing

Wales mind games have gone down hill this year. Oooo the suspense is killing us all.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to post this comment from the BBC article - it's brilliant:

Dean wrote:Yet another deeply conservative side chosen by Rob "No Risks" Howley. Wales will look to start carefully and then get slower by injecting Jamie Roberts into the mix late on. Sam Davies will get on with Wales 22 points behind and 7 minutes remaining. The two props out-scrummaged by Italy will come on after 50 minutes to give England a steady stream of penalties to close the game down. Depressing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38919198

Dean's gone for the 'brilliance-disguised-as-an-inane-comment' approach, has he?

That initial team was the best team Wales could have played. You can only play the players available to you. Sam Davies isn't some magic cure. Shane Williams has retired. I do wonder whether some fans actually want us to compete, or whether they'd rather we score one great try but lose by 30 points in the process.

I'm also questioning how many people actually played/play the game on here and by those BBC comments. Seemingly not many.

I thought it was an amusing post, especially the bit about Jamie Roberts. It's also true that we'll bringing on the props we took off against Italy.

It becomes tiring when fans are parroting the gobshytes who write articles for clickbait media publications as if it's anything more than sensationalism. If Roberts comes on and shores up a defence that is having to face several big English ball carriers late in the game, I wonder if they'll still be criticising him being selected?

I don't see the conservatism myself. I'm glad he changed the two props around, clearly they weren't up to the job last week, and in part I think he picked Nicky Smith knowing he'd probably play Rob Evans in this game regardless. Francis played 80 minutes in one of the Autumn games I believe, and Rob Evans can last the pace, so hopefully there's no need to take either off after 50 minutes over fitness worries. Unfortunately our depth across the front row is pretty atrocious, but as I said, you can only select what you've got.

I played the game a long time ago when we prized players like Davies who had the guile, the ability to read and call for what they saw in front of them.

Biggar is a conservative flyhalf, both he and Davies have their merits, but I value an ability to score tries and that is something I feel Biggar struggles with compared to Davies.

Glad to see that North is fit enough. His try was superb last weekend. Even the Italians were applauding it. As with the other two and a few deemed short of the line it was good vision that created them from the halfbacks.

I hope we see a good game tomorrow not marred by factors beyond players control.

From what I can see North hasn't been declared fit, he just hasn't been ruled out yet.

maesteg, I agree, but the game has changed, and in ways that maybe aren't for the better. Natural talent and reading of the game has far less space to dictate and decide the game anymore.

Without presuming your age, the Rugby of the 70's was unbelievably stop start having watched as many videos as I can, and for all the great tries scored there, they simply wouldn't be scored today in a competition like the Six Nations.

There's nothing wrong with having a player better at certain facets of the game start the game on the bench, particularly when they're a lot younger, more inexperienced, and potentially physically soft for a game such as this one.

Sam Davies could go on to become a Welsh great. He certainly has the raw attributes to be a much technically better player than Biggar, but Biggar himself has some traits rarely seen in a Welsh jersey. Despite him footballing limitations, he has unbelievable tenacity and drive, has gone from a tempestuous 19 year old winning Celtic Leagues with the Ospreys to one of Wales's key players. Having previously been a revolving door in defence, he's now one of the most committed outside halves in World Rugby when defending. As a player, you must recognise the utility of having a player like that in your team?

I don't see the problem with a player being on the bench. Do you hear English fans going on about Haskell, despite his clear value to the team, and his decent match fitness as proven last weekend?

miaow wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I have to post this comment from the BBC article - it's brilliant:

Dean wrote:Yet another deeply conservative side chosen by Rob "No Risks" Howley. Wales will look to start carefully and then get slower by injecting Jamie Roberts into the mix late on. Sam Davies will get on with Wales 22 points behind and 7 minutes remaining. The two props out-scrummaged by Italy will come on after 50 minutes to give England a steady stream of penalties to close the game down. Depressing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/38919198

Dean's gone for the 'brilliance-disguised-as-an-inane-comment' approach, has he?

That initial team was the best team Wales could have played. You can only play the players available to you. Sam Davies isn't some magic cure. Shane Williams has retired. I do wonder whether some fans actually want us to compete, or whether they'd rather we score one great try but lose by 30 points in the process.

I'm also questioning how many people actually played/play the game on here and by those BBC comments. Seemingly not many.

Did anyone mention Shane Williams?

If north out would rather halfpenny on wing and put biggar fullback and Sam at ten with Owen Williams on bench . What's the point of Jamie Roberts on the bench . He either first choice or no choice .

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Did anyone mention Shane Williams?

Yes, me.

What do you make of the comment below Dean's on that BBC page Luckless?

flex wrote:England's back 3 must be rubbing their hands in glee. Biggar will be spoon feeding them all afternoon.
When will they realise that our lack of cutting edge in attack over the last 3-4 years coincides with Dan Biggar being first choice 10.
What does Sam Davies need to do!? He's quickly becoming the next James Hook; as in a talent wasted!!!
Unbelievable!

Brilliant as well? Or a worrying indication of the volume levels of empty vessels in Wales?

Hook was a talent with ball in hand but his game management was lacking, hence the Ospreys preferred Biggar and Wales preferred Stephen Jones. I have no problem with that.

Sam Davies is quite different though, as his game management is very good.

If North is out, choosing Cuthbert above Steff Evans would be a timid choice by Howley. But I am against picking people out of position; Biggar doesn't have the pace for playing full-back (remember poor old Jenks as FB???) or much experience of playing there; Sam Davies is too slight for FB. It needs a like for like replacement. It's just that selecting Cuthbert above SE would be placing experience above all other considerations apart from sheer size. It's not what Wales need or what Cuthbert needs right now.

Hook tended to do best from centre.