The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[propdavid_london]

Problem is that Warbs isn't a guaranteed starter either!
Best now has to be the logical choice.
I am sure that there will be a leadership group that's identified in the larger squad - likely to be more senior players
I would expect that to include the likes of (if they travel) - Best, AWJ, Warbs, Sexton, Hartley, Farrell, Laidlaw, Barclay etc.

[rodders]

Yup - Gats is in a sticky spot here.

With Wales looking set to lose their remaining games under Alun Wyn and finish bottom of the home nations and England guaranteed to be thumped in the final game he might well resign as Lions head coach before the tour even starts.

[Geordie]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

[No9]

Not saying there wont be... But Gats did say, in a press conf, that he wanted the Lions Captain to be the caption of his national side. Then, funnily, a week later Warbs resigned the captaincy, setting it up nicely for AWJ. Coincidence.... maybe ?

But I think AWJ has blown the Lions Captaincy now. The team performance has been a black mark, his belligerent attitude to media interviews has not helped him, but to make a comment that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to is a nail in his coffin. I cant believe he said that... mind you, with the ref mic picking up the discussion he was bang to rights. Sign for me that the Welsh team are imploding.

[rodders]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

Well there was a lot of talk about Farrell but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo at the weekend, so talk of him being the first name on the team sheet is laughable when you see the form of Russell and Sexton.

Gats will go down fighting though. I think he'll pick Best or Barclay just so he can drop them from the test side. I think he'd love to be the first lions coach to drop the tour captain. He has a history of that sort of carry on.

[Gooseberry]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

Well there was a lot of talk about Farrell but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo at the weekend, so talk of him being the first name on the team sheet is laughable when you see the form of Russell and Sexton.

Gats will go down fighting though. I think he'll pick Best or Barclay just so he can drop them from the test side. I think he'd love to be the first lions coach to drop the tour captain. He has a history of that sort of carry on.  

In that case he should take Hartley and George.


Its pretty horrible at the minute though, all the candidates seem to have there issues. AWJ look a pretty dead cert when made Wales capatin, but his stocks dropped rapidly not just from performances but the Robshawesque kick or no kick fiascos. If he doenst even have authroity over his own team and is willing to hang them out to dry in a press conference then Lions Captain seems a stretch.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Barclay did his chances no harm at all. Up against Tipuric and Warburton, Barclay as Captain did really well.

[Scottrf]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

Well there was a lot of talk about Farrell but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo at the weekend, so talk of him being the first name on the team sheet is laughable when you see the form of Russell and Sexton. 

Seriously. Farrell has one bad game and now it's laughable he plays in front of the Russell who was being slaughtered last week and Sexton who is one game back. So fickle on this forum.

[munkian]

Haskell

[No9]

Barclay would be a legendary story.... Out in the wilderness, dropped by Scotland, then a comeback from the bench, to start and Captain. To go onto then be Lions Capt, is what Legends are made of... I like it, this positive come back, he could even lead the Lions to victory..

[Hammersmith harrier]

I think Best himself has been pretty poor, Warburton out of all the possible contenders is the one playing the best at the moment.

[rodders]

Haskell

He was certainly thinking outside the box there on Saturday about how to create a ruck if the defending team doesn't engage.

A thinking mans captain indeed.

[munkian]

Haskell

He was certainly thinking outside the box there on Saturday about how to create a ruck if the defending team doesn't engage.

A thinking mans captain indeed.

He'd start a ruck with a rugby post

[123456789]

The issue with Barclay is that he is by no means a certainty to tour, let alone start. Compared to his competition in the back row he is slightly underpowered.

For me Gatland has two options; one is to choose from the nailed on starters and the other is to select a tour captain and then later select a playing captain.

The issue with the first option is that it is an inherently subjective field and only Gatland will know with any certainty the list of candidates.

The second option is undoubtedly unorthodox and could cause issues once the test series is in swing. It also appears a slightly out of date option; whereas previous tours were stacked with elder statesman like O'Driscoll, O'Connell, Simon Shaw, Martyn Williams etc. there currently does not seem the same number of "legends" playing the game at the moment.

Although, with Gatland's track record, I reckon this argument is academical. I think Gatland has already chosen his captain and most of his squad and something special will have to happen for him to change his mind. Wales losing to all three of the home nations may well represent that but he can always fall back on the autumn internationals and previous successes. Anything other than a tight game between Ireland and England would encourage maintaining the status quo. Scotland beating England might push three or four more players into the squad but that's really about it.

[Geordie]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

Well there was a lot of talk about Farrell but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo at the weekend, so talk of him being the first name on the team sheet is laughable when you see the form of Russell and Sexton.

Gats will go down fighting though. I think he'll pick Best or Barclay just so he can drop them from the test side. I think he'd love to be the first lions coach to drop the tour captain. He has a history of that sort of carry on.  

One bad game Rodders. And in a game where the whole team did themselves no favours. If theres one thing Farrell brings generally its consistency.

Im not sure he'll be Captain but could very well claim a VC position.

Who's banked on to actually start the games would be my first puzzle.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Well, you probably want your captain to be a nailed on starter, so who exactly is nailed on at the moment. Yes I know obviously no one is right now, but if the Lions squad were picked tomorrow who would be pencilled in immediately for a starting berth?

Probably none of the forwards, maybe Vunipola at 8 (assuming he comes back from injury ok) while Stander is IMO in pole position at 6? All other spots have too much competition or no stand out. Vunipola was a part of the leadership group before his injury, while Stander would IMO make a good "leader-by-example" type, so both options I guess.

In the backs, I still reckon you'd try to find a spot for Farrell somewhere, despite a poor performance yesterday. The other two I think are ahead of the pack right now are Murray and Hogg. Also think you need to get L. Williams in the team somewhere. Now I don't think Hogg and Williams are exactly captaincy material. Farrell has been captaining England when Hartley's gone off, and Murray seems another decent option to me too.

Currently, none of the international captains are certain of touring IMO. Best will probably go, but the others? Laidlaw has a long injury and wasn't in pole position before, AWJ's stock is plummeting, Hartley doesn't seem to be even the best hooker in England anymore.

Right now, I'd pick Murray. Him and Hogg are the only two players I'd absolutely nail on for a starting berth, and I think Murray would make a better captain than Hogg...

[reallybored]

Surely if Wales lose to Ireland AW Jones can't be captain.

[mikey_dragon]

The poor form of the Wales team shouldn't detract from the performance of our locks. Both AWJ and Ball have played pretty well. Going by what happened on Saturday however, I wouldn't install AWJ as captain. I also think it would be foolish to not tour with Hartley in the squad as he's one of the players most suited to playing in that environment. Him, SOB, Webb, Murray, Stander and L Williams should all be certs to tour based on this as well as their form, in my opinion of course - but we are missing a trick if we don't take these tough, abrasive players.

[RuggerRadge2611]

The poor form of the Wales team shouldn't detract from the performance of our locks. Both AWJ and Ball have played pretty well. Going by what happened on Saturday however, I wouldn't install AWJ as captain. I also think it would be foolish to not tour with Hartley in the squad as he's one of the players most suited to playing in that environment. Him, SOB, Webb, Murray, Stander and L Williams should all be certs to tour based on this as well as their form, in my opinion of course - but we are missing a trick if we don't take these tough, abrasive players.

Scotland's poor performance has detracted from our exceptional backdrows for the last 2 tours. Kelly Brown and Matt Scott should have toured on 2013, Barclay should have toured in 2009. I hope that the same measure is applied to all the potential lions this time around.

[Geordie]

What about someone like Johnny Gray?
Top player. Bruising forward. Captaining his club I believe.

Lock is a hugely competitive position mind.

[propdavid_london]

Can Gats pick a tour captain - then a test captain when he gets closer to the main event!

[rodders]

I'm going to go out on limb here.

I think Heaslip will be captain.

3 times tourist and runner up world player of the year 2016, Irish and Leinster vice captain.

I'm amazed he's slipped under the radar.

[TJ]

Can Gats pick a tour captain - then a test captain when he gets closer to the main event!

That would appear to be the sensible option.

[reallybored]

What about someone like Johnny Gray?
Top player. Bruising forward. Captaining his club I believe.

Lock is a hugely competitive position mind.

Plus he consistently plays awesome.

[Mad for Chelsea]

What about someone like Johnny Gray?
Top player. Bruising forward. Captaining his club I believe.

Lock is a hugely competitive position mind.

Problem with the bit in bold. You could make a decent case for about seven or eight locks to start at the moment. Admittedly J. Gray would be higher up that list than most, and I'd start him, but nailed on? Not sure. Having said that, the captaincy at Glasgow seems to bring out the best in him, so maybe. In a similar vein, you could look at Itoje.

[funnyExiledScot]

I'm going to go out on limb here.

I think Heaslip will be captain.

3 times tourist and runner up world player of the year 2016, Irish and Leinster vice captain.

I'm amazed he's slipped under the radar.

It says something that you've mentioned him, had me nodding my head and yet I haven't picked Heaslip to tour in a single one of my mock Lions squads!!

Gatland has an extremely tough decision to make. The safe bet is still AWJ in my book, despite Wales looking poor against Scotland.

[funnyExiledScot]

Jonny Gray is a very quiet bloke, and does very little talking around the Scotland squad by his own admission. He also has very limited experience of press conferences and all the media stuff that goes with being a Lions captain. He has a great shot at the Lions XV, but would be a poor choice for captain in my opinion.

[fa0019]

Its probably one of the toughest scenarios to call in years. No one standout and the minute someone looks obvious they fail to live up to standards.
Jones doesn't look natural, Hartley's not been on top form and I don't think Gatland rates Best that much. Could save himself the worry by picking Farrell, Sexton etc.

Of the last 7 tours mind, 5 of the tour captains have come from the leading team in that years 5N/6N championship. The 2 exceptions being 1989 (when Scotland came joint top) and 2005 when BOD got the nod and Wales won the GS.

How about Sean O'Brien? He should tour, he's a big game player and I think he'll test.

I'd still say if England win the GS he'd be a fool for not going with Hartley mind...People right off England a lot but they keep on winning and a big part of that is leadership. You don't win 3 zip in AUS without having players following your lead and belief in your captaincy.

[Geordie]

I guess experience is important with us playing NZ aswell.

Experience of beating the AB's would be extra...Best?

[offload]

Interesting dilema for Gatland. None of the 4 nations captains is guaranteed a starting test position, far from it.

Gatland will let the 6N's play out, pick his squad and then his captain. If Wales fail in the next two matches will Gatland still pick his favourites without merit? Hope not. I think it will be a forward, so if he's bold and doesn't go with a current captain, my very wild card is Itoje.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I guess experience is important with us playing NZ aswell.

Experience of beating the AB's would be extra...Best?

Robshaw? You know Gats is itching to do it... Or how about Goode?

[fa0019]

AWJ could put in 2 gut busting performances and still end up with 4 defeats in the 6N... even if he was the best choice how can Gatland choose him?

Surely he could say, he's a great player in a bad side but firstly its his side and secondly it would cause a huge amount of flak from players, fans and the media who would cite favouritism.
Players may go with it at the beginning but you can team build all you like, once the losses start rolling in and you're 10 down in the first test those home nations love ins could resemble levels of affection of a newly divorced couple.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Launchbury & Johnny Gray co - captains sorted!
The 2 best locks so far (Lawes not far away) & both are club captains.

[Scottrf]

Lawes has been better than Launchbury overall IMO - much better against France.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Lawes has been better than Launchbury overall IMO - much better against France.

Maybe but he's not captain material but has put himself in frame to tour for sure.

[TJ]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions. He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team. I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

[RuggerRadge2611]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

[funnyExiledScot]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

[GunsGermsV2]

Why not a wild card non National team captain...Ala Martin Johnson in 97?

Well there was a lot of talk about Farrell but he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo at the weekend, so talk of him being the first name on the team sheet is laughable when you see the form of Russell and Sexton. 

Seriously. Farrell has one bad game and now it's laughable he plays in front of the Russell who was being slaughtered last week and Sexton who is one game back. So fickle on this forum.

It was a really bad game for Farrell though. It was almost as if he is starting to believe all the hype around him. Worst performance of any potential Lions 10 in the 6 nations so far.

[GunsGermsV2]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I disagree, as POC said the kicker should form part of the decision. If they dont fancy the kick there is no point in going for the kick. AWJ is still a leading contender for me.

[fa0019]

Itoje is too young but it was surprisingly that of all the players he was the one who I think adapted to it the quickest and seemed to lead from the front.

[fa0019]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I disagree, as POC said the kicker should form part of the decision. If they dont fancy the kick there is no point in going for the kick. AWJ is still a leading contender for me.

I recall Jonno simply throwing players the ball. He never held court with his players.

[GunsGermsV2]

Lawes has been better than Launchbury overall IMO - much better against France.

Maybe but he's not captain material but has put himself in frame to tour for sure.

I think Tom Croft should go instead.

[Sin é]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

I think I read somewhere last week where Warburton said that he relinguished the captaincy of wales because he needs the pressure to perform of not being assured of his spot.

Gatland doesn't like Best for some reason. I even heard they had fisty cuffs (don't know if that is true or not).

I think Gatland was preparing the ground saying that the Tour Captain won't necessarily start.

[funnyExiledScot]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I disagree, as POC said the kicker should form part of the decision. If they dont fancy the kick there is no point in going for the kick. AWJ is still a leading contender for me.

But Biggar wasn't the kicker.....

[rodders]

Gatland doesn't like Best for some reason. I even heard they had fisty cuffs (don't know if that is true or not).

Maybe he confused Best with Keith Wood?

[funnyExiledScot]

Gatland doesn't like Best for some reason. I even heard they had fisty cuffs (don't know if that is true or not).

Maybe he confused Best with Keith Wood?

Gatland probably has a thing against hookers who actually get to represent their country.

[Sin é]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I disagree, as POC said the kicker should form part of the decision. If they dont fancy the kick there is no point in going for the kick. AWJ is still a leading contender for me.

POC also said when playing with ROG he always trusted ROG to make the decision. I think the captain and outhalf would need a good relationship though to have that sort of an arrangement. I think the outhalf would generally have a better idea about the mood of the game, whether the forwards were on top, need a break (i.e., safe them from themselves) and calm down the game.

[Sin é]

Gatland doesn't like Best for some reason. I even heard they had fisty cuffs (don't know if that is true or not).

Maybe he confused Best with Keith Wood?

That could be an issue as well - anti Irish. After all, Woody got him sacked from Ireland!

[Sponsored content]