The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[Scottrf]

Pretty much agree with FES, although I'd want Tipuric there probably (over SOB I guess), and Nowell. Robshaw depends on balance of the BR.

[captain carrantuohil]

As an Irish supporter, I wouldn't let Zebo anywhere near the plane on the basis of his 6N form. Munster, yes. Would need to show some serious threat and guile against England to enter the argument for me.

[funnyExiledScot]

I see it as Zebo vs Nowell. I chose Zebo because Nowell has silly hair.

[Gooseberry]

I see it as Zebo vs Nowell. I chose Zebo because Nowell has silly hair.

Danny Care is very upset by this

[funnyExiledScot]

I see it as Zebo vs Nowell. I chose Zebo because Nowell has silly hair.

Danny Care is very upset by this

I chose Care, despite his silly hair. It was a touch choice, because I deeply admire Ben Youngs for being such a great player despite having an athletic physique not dissimilar to my own.

I should add that my squad is contingent on there being no silly hipster beards grown between now and selection day.

[thomh]

I find myself debating Biggar vs Ford constantly and struggle to make up my mind. Biggar is the big game test match animal, but Ford is just so talented. Really tough one.

If we assume that Sexton and Farrell will go then I can't see the rationale for taking Biggar over Ford. You've already got two mentally strong and physical potential fly halves there and taking Biggar as well would do less to  add to than it would to limit your tactical options. Whatever people think of Ford's form and merits, he's integral to the way England play and key to unleashing the likes of Joseph, Watson and in time perhaps Hogg outside.

I'd have no qualms with Biggar going if there were concerns about sexton's durability and/or form come selection time, though.

[funnyExiledScot]

I find myself debating Biggar vs Ford constantly and struggle to make up my mind. Biggar is the big game test match animal, but Ford is just so talented. Really tough one.

If we assume that Sexton and Farrell will go then I can't see the rationale for taking Biggar over Ford. You've already got two mentally strong and physical potential fly halves there and taking Biggar as well would do less to  add to than it would to limit your tactical options. Whatever people think of Ford's form and merits, he's integral to the way England play and key to unleashing the likes of Joseph, Watson and in time perhaps Hogg outside.

I'd have no qualms with Biggar going if there were concerns about sexton's durability and/or form come selection time, though.

Pretty much my reasoning for taking Ford over Biggar, as Ford offers something different to Sexton and Farrell.

[beshocked]

Biggar's passes vs Ireland were so telegraphed, Sexton intercepted 2.

I feel that if you select Ford you must select Farrell at 12 to help him out. He's his comfort blanket, takes so much pressure off Ford.

[funnyExiledScot]

Biggar's passes vs Ireland were so telegraphed, Sexton intercepted 2.

I feel that if you select Ford you must select Farrell at 12 to help him out. He's his comfort blanket, takes so much pressure off Ford.

I agree, which probably means we're looking at having the following as hard-wired combinations:

9.Webb 10.Ford 12.Farrell

9.Murray 10.Sexton 12.Henshaw

I do like the chop and change nature of Lions tours, and seeing new combinations tried and tested (in fact that's a key part of the fun), however I can also see the competitive logic of keeping the crucial team axis fairly stable (and also avoiding Ford taking on the kicking duties).

[beshocked]

FES good selections.

[hugehandoff]

I hate being sensible on a thread like this one (I should know better), but we all need to wait the final round of matches before nailing our colours to the mast. As esteemed pundits point out it is the away performances that matter in terms of Lions selection. England have only had 1 away game and for the majority of that they were getting battered. But they found a way to win and get huge credit for that. Plus they did beat Aus 3-0 last summer, which is impressive.

Everyone else is struggling with their away form. If Wales beat France then Gatland will take notice. Scotland have been badly mauled up front in both away games so for me their front 5 boys could miss out.

We will find out a lot more about England on Saturday against a quality Ireland side who are hurting. What odds on them stopping two sides unbeaten runs on 18 matches? But if Ireland do win that will only compound Gatland's problems as he really needs players who can perform on the road.

Enough squabbling and let's make a date to review on Sunday.

[robbo277]

I hate being sensible on a thread like this one (I should know better), but we all need to wait the final round of matches before nailing our colours to the mast. As esteemed pundits point out it is the away performances that matter in terms of Lions selection. England have only had 1 away game and for the majority of that they were getting battered. But they found a way to win and get huge credit for that. Plus they did beat Aus 3-0 last summer, which is impressive.

Everyone else is struggling with their away form. If Wales beat France then Gatland will take notice. Scotland have been badly mauled up front in both away games so for me their front 5 boys could miss out.

We will find out a lot more about England on Saturday against a quality Ireland side who are hurting. What odds on them stopping two sides unbeaten runs on 18 matches? But if Ireland do win that will only compound Gatland's problems as he really needs players who can perform on the road.

Enough squabbling and let's make a date to review on Sunday.

To an extent, I disagree. Short of a monumental shock/performance from one of the sides (in line with 30-3, much as I hate thinking about it!), then we can probably pick a lot of the squad now, fitness permitting.

There are more places up for grabs, and some might be secured with big individual performances this weekend, but I think the form in the rest of the club season will be just as important as the last game of the Six Nations, again, excepting for a monumental performance from one side.

[funnyExiledScot]

I hate being sensible on a thread like this one (I should know better), but we all need to wait the final round of matches before nailing our colours to the mast. As esteemed pundits point out it is the away performances that matter in terms of Lions selection. England have only had 1 away game and for the majority of that they were getting battered. But they found a way to win and get huge credit for that. Plus they did beat Aus 3-0 last summer, which is impressive.

Everyone else is struggling with their away form. If Wales beat France then Gatland will take notice. Scotland have been badly mauled up front in both away games so for me their front 5 boys could miss out.

We will find out a lot more about England on Saturday against a quality Ireland side who are hurting. What odds on them stopping two sides unbeaten runs on 18 matches? But if Ireland do win that will only compound Gatland's problems as he really needs players who can perform on the road.

Enough squabbling and let's make a date to review on Sunday.

To an extent, I disagree. Short of a monumental shock/performance from one of the sides (in line with 30-3, much as I hate thinking about it!), then we can probably pick a lot of the squad now, fitness permitting.

There are more places up for grabs, and some might be secured with big individual performances this weekend, but I think the form in the rest of the club season will be just as important as the last game of the Six Nations, again, excepting for a monumental performance from one side.

Completely agree. Selection should not depend on one round of matches. I'm pretty certain Gatland will have 36 of his 38 or so picked already.

[Guest]

Agree with the above too, but I do think it's a much more malleable squad than it would have been this time four years ago, particularly in relation to the Test team.

There are very few injuries so far, which is rare: usually there's at least one or two long term injured at this stage, hoping to make it back. I do hope that we don't have a glut towards the end of the season, but injuries as much of form will shape those borderline will-he-wont-he decisions that exist in every position, from 1 to 15.

[thomh]

The last round of the six nations had a huge impact last time, perhaps less so on the initial squad selection (though I think launchbury, wood and robshaw may otherwise have been selected) than on the eventual selection of the test team. After a loss to Ireland and three insipid wins against the blue teams, the idea of Wales supplying 12 of the winning third test team would have seemed ridiculous, but their performance in the 30-3 game changed everything.

This time round the English players are surely less vulnerable to a single game costing them a squad or test place but there are still bound to be performances which have a significant impact.

[majesticimperialman]

Speaking of selection for the Lions. 

Does any know why Gatland dd not turn up at the England v Scotland game?

Seems strange that he was there to watch Wales v Ireland game.

[Gwlad]

No need, he knows the backbone of the team will be Irish and Welsh.

[Exiledinborders]

No need, he knows the backbone of the team will be Irish and Welsh.

I hope you are right. I would not want England's players to catch Gatlandball.

[majesticimperialman]

I guess we will see when it comes to selection just how Biased to wards Wales Gatland is. right

[Gwlad]

Well he knows Welshmen will produce points as they always do on winning tours with heir disproportionate contributions

[Scottrf]

Well he knows Welshmen will produce points as they always do on winning tours with heir disproportionate contributions

When they are disproportionately selected...

We've seen this 6 Nations that all things being equal the points scored are the worst of the home nations.

The last tour isn't relevant. Things have moved on (except Wales).

[fa0019]

The problem with rugby in the pro era is that teams require far more time to gel, plays and partnerships are more complex than before.
In the old days you could have lions tours where the best XV players could come together without knowing each other and be competitive... but I just don't think its possible in the modern game.

In truth I think the best way forward for any lions side would be to build sides around the dominant team with the odd improvement here and there.

Take Lineouts for instance.... they're highly complex with 30+ variations which takes teams years to get used to. In that respect whilst you could argue a Best-Gray-Jones combo its probably better in a theoretical man to man outlook compared to a Hartley-Itoje-Kruis combo. It doesn't mean they're better players but as a unit as short notice I have no doubt they all English unit will be better.

The same with a Murray-Sexton 9-10... It will overall work better than a Webb-Sexton selection. So much so you could actually argue a Youngs-Ford-Farrell-Joseph selection might be the best for the lions, although I acknowledge the lions would tear Ford a new one off the 1st phase.

At least with the old lions tours you had 15+ games... now they have 10 with barely 4 chances for players to gel. Its why with a heavy heart I think the Lions concept is doomed.... because I don't think teams will be based on the best players for much longer and caps will devalue.

You simply can't build world class defence, attack, lineout, scrum etc with 3-4 games. The baa baas for instance used to compete in all facets of the game during the AIs in the amateur era.... these days they get blown away against semi-serious opposition and the the quality of the baa baa players is if anything better than the old days.

England already got a series win in AUS 3-0 last year, had they gone as lions I don't think they would have done.... if so whats the point?

[Gwlad]

Well he knows Welshmen will produce points as they always do on winning tours with heir disproportionate contributions

When they are disproportionately selected...

We've seen this 6 Nations that all things being equal the points scored are the worst of the home nations.

The last tour isn't relevant. Things have moved on (except Wales).

The last tour is rather relevant seeing as we have the same coach  

Thank goodness as he is the only winning Lions coach available, or maybe we should pick Jonno, or Andy Robinson or Lancaster?

As for disproportionate selection perhaps the grossest example is Sir Clive's band of merry but past it englishmen in 2005, didn't exactly produce the goods did they?

[Gooseberry]

Not their fault the Welsh didn't score enough points was it

[Scottrf]

It's 4 years. Players retire, lose form, other players gain form. If the last tour is so important players would play until they die.

Not interested in old examples of doing badly. Want players who are playing well and winning. Now. Not 4 years ago.

[majesticimperialman]

It's 4 years. Players retire, lose form, other players gain form. If the last tour is so important players would play until they die.

Not interested in old examples of doing badly. Want players who are playing well and winning. Now. Not 4 years ago.



 Well said.

[Gwlad]

Mea culpa, shouldn't diminish Sir Clive's contribution

From the 4 corners of our land

We're united

hand in hand

Together we're stronger (brings a tear to your eye)

[Gwlad]

Yes but we've always picked Englishmen who never score points. Waste of time, even the much vaunted English dominated tour of 2005

1st Test 2005 - 12 English only 3 POINTS! .25 per English player
2nd test 2005 - 9 English only 8 POINTS! .88 per English player
3rd Test 2005 - 8 English only 5 POINTS! .62 per English player

Wilkinson and Moody (1 solitary try)  Even Robinson didn't score. No wonder we lost.

[Gwlad]

Whereas compare with a WINNING Lions as in 2013

1st test 23 points 10 Welshmen 2.3 points per player (all points scored by Wales)
2nd test 15 points 9 Welsh heroes 1.66 points per player but all scored by Halfpenny
3rd test you get the picture, 31 points scored by the boyos.

In fact in the whole test series England contributed 1 solitary try.

So, my advice, Welsh coach pick Welsh and Irish with a few Scots and Manu Tuilagi if fit

[Gwlad]

See, same old story, no English around to score a point.

[Scottrf]

We'll get on with winning 6 Nations titles then.

[majesticimperialman]

See, same old story, no English around to score a point.


Stop living in the past.

[Gwlad]

We'll get on with winning 6 Nations titles then.

About time, you hadn't won one for how long? 13 years is it?!!

[No 7&1/2]

Wrong again.

[hugehandoff]

I hate being sensible on a thread like this one (I should know better), but we all need to wait the final round of matches before nailing our colours to the mast. As esteemed pundits point out it is the away performances that matter in terms of Lions selection. England have only had 1 away game and for the majority of that they were getting battered. But they found a way to win and get huge credit for that. Plus they did beat Aus 3-0 last summer, which is impressive.

Everyone else is struggling with their away form. If Wales beat France then Gatland will take notice. Scotland have been badly mauled up front in both away games so for me their front 5 boys could miss out.

We will find out a lot more about England on Saturday against a quality Ireland side who are hurting. What odds on them stopping two sides unbeaten runs on 18 matches? But if Ireland do win that will only compound Gatland's problems as he really needs players who can perform on the road.

Enough squabbling and let's make a date to review on Sunday.

To an extent, I disagree. Short of a monumental shock/performance from one of the sides (in line with 30-3, much as I hate thinking about it!), then we can probably pick a lot of the squad now, fitness permitting.

There are more places up for grabs, and some might be secured with big individual performances this weekend, but I think the form in the rest of the club season will be just as important as the last game of the Six Nations, again, excepting for a monumental performance from one side.

It is not about making selections based on a single match, but based on an aggregation of matches and this Saturday has two very significant matches. Gatland won't make knee jerk decisions based on 1 match, but he will make considered decisions based on all the matches. But away performances count double. How many Scots have lost places after the England match and that was just ONE match? Scotland have very few away wins against top tier sides in recent years, but one good performance last Saturday would have propelled a few more forward of their players into selection. England have an excellent recent away record and therefore should be excused a below par performance if it happens against Ireland. The Welsh boys will benefit if they beat France away.

So not about 1 match but all the matches are important. Maybe 80% of the party is nailed on, but there may still be room for changes? That is why I think a proper assessment needs to take into account this Sat matches.

[Scottrf]

We'll get on with winning 6 Nations titles then.

About time, you hadn't won one for how long? 13 years is it?!!

2 days. And last year. Do you even follow rugby since the last Lions tour?

[captain carrantuohil]

Think he means before last year but is forgetting the year that parallels this one, 2011. England 4 from 4, Championship already won, but Ireland lying in wait in Dublin for one of our best performances of the Kidney years.

I can obviously hope for lightning to strike twice....but not too confidently now.

[Scottrf]

I was thinking Ireland should be slight favourites, but have swung the other way since the weekend. Should be a cracking match.

[captain carrantuohil]

I still think we have a really good 80 minutes in us but I'm beyond depressed at the prospect of a vote of confidence in the same 15 after the Cardiff experience, the extraordinary decision to add McFadden to the bench and the likelihood of the usual balls-achingly narrow strategy of running into contact with the nearest opposition shirt.

Doesn't mean we can't win but we're going to have to grind it out with a bludgeon a la 2015, rather than using the rapier as we did in 07 and 11.

[Gwlad]

yes so easy to forget the one time you won it in 13 years in 2011 because of the squandered Slam, do hope history repeats itself this weekend

[Gwlad]

Wrong again.

I'm right about you though.

[No 7&1/2]

Yes good comeback well covering your complete lack of knowledge.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

See EJs has said he would be disappointed if Gats didn't choose at least 15 English players to tour.
It seems a lot but cases could be made for 15 given our 'finishers' plus Kruis & Robshaw

[The Great Aukster]

The problem with rugby in the pro era is that teams require far more time to gel, plays and partnerships are more complex than before.
In the old days you could have lions tours where the best XV players could come together without knowing each other and be competitive... but I just don't think its possible in the modern game.

In truth I think the best way forward for any lions side would be to build sides around the dominant team with the odd improvement here and there.

Take Lineouts for instance.... they're highly complex with 30+ variations which takes teams years to get used to. In that respect whilst you could argue a Best-Gray-Jones combo its probably better in a theoretical man to man outlook compared to a Hartley-Itoje-Kruis combo. It doesn't mean they're better players but as a unit as short notice I have no doubt they all English unit will be better.

The same with a Murray-Sexton 9-10... It will overall work better than a Webb-Sexton selection. So much so you could actually argue a Youngs-Ford-Farrell-Joseph selection might be the best for the lions, although I acknowledge the lions would tear Ford a new one off the 1st phase.

At least with the old lions tours you had 15+ games... now they have 10 with barely 4 chances for players to gel. Its why with a heavy heart I think the Lions concept is doomed.... because I don't think teams will be based on the best players for much longer and caps will devalue.

You simply can't build world class defence, attack, lineout, scrum etc with 3-4 games. The baa baas for instance used to compete in all facets of the game during the AIs in the amateur era.... these days they get blown away against semi-serious opposition and the the quality of the baa baa players is if anything better than the old days.

England already got a series win in AUS 3-0 last year, had they gone as lions I don't think they would have done.... if so whats the point?

Excellent well reasoned post fa.

There is no point, other than getting the rich NH fans to subsidise the SANZAR Unions. The Lions have become just another reality show dressed up as sport. It's only a matter of time before Gareth Thomas is recalled or even better - Spencer Matthews is given a go.

[thomh]

Surely the point is that the "rich NH fans" only spend that money on it because they love the concept. Fundamentally there's no real point to any professional sport beyond the fact that people love watching it.

[Scottrf]

Surely the point is that the "rich NH fans" only spend that money on it because they love the concept. Fundamentally there's no real point to any professional sport beyond the fact that people love watching it.

[killer938]

yes so easy to forget the one time you won it in 13 years in 2011 because of the squandered Slam, do hope history repeats itself this weekend

In the last 10 years (a reasonable time period to assess I believe) England have won it 3 times including 2 in a row, Wales have won it 3 times including 2 in a row, Ireland have won it 3 times including 2 in a row and France have won it 3 times including 2 in a row (this would take us back to 2006)...kind of see a pattern there? Mocking England for winning 2 of those 3 in the last 2 years actually just backs up the fact that they are the form team and so picking their players for the Lions squad is probably a good idea. 2013, Wales had just won it twice in a row and so it justifiably a large contingent of Wales players in that squad and probably team. 2017, England have done the same so wouldn't you say it was reasonable for people to say the same should happen this time?

I am fully in support of combinations, no matter which country they are from, especially in crucial areas. I would go Irish half backs and English centres. I think Farrell is good enough to form a combination with Sexton (if he is fit) and will be able to organise the defence he is used to.

[TightHEAD]

See EJs has said he would be disappointed if Gats didn't choose at least 15 English players to tour.
It seems a lot but cases could be made for 15 given our 'finishers' plus Kruis & Robshaw

Gats didn't even bother turning up for Eng v Scotland game, that implies to me he has made his mind up already either way.

[munkian]

See EJs has said he would be disappointed if Gats didn't choose at least 15 English players to tour.
It seems a lot but cases could be made for 15 given our 'finishers' plus Kruis & Robshaw

Gats didn't even bother turning up for Eng v Scotland game, that implies to me he has made his mind up already either way.

Or that he has watched plenty of England's and Scotland's games already and was at the Wales v Ireland game the night before ?

He's also stated that the performance of players during the club and European games will have a big impact on selection.

[TightHEAD]

Long way to go up the M4 to Twickers I guess!

Gats isn't doing his job if he doesn't attended these game imho. Poor form from the Lions coach.

[Sponsored content]