The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[funnyExiledScot]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I disagree, as POC said the kicker should form part of the decision. If they dont fancy the kick there is no point in going for the kick. AWJ is still a leading contender for me.

POC also said when playing with ROG he always trusted ROG to make the decision. I think the captain and outhalf would need a good relationship though to have that sort of an arrangement. I think the outhalf would generally have a better idea about the mood of the game, whether the forwards were on top, need a break (i.e., safe them from themselves) and calm down the game.

Maybe, but AWJ wanted to do one thing and Dan Biggar, who wasn't responsible for the goal kicking, overruled him. AWJ didn't trust Biggar with the decision, he told him to do one thing and Biggar said he wanted to do something else. AWJ admitted as such to the press and public, perhaps suggesting that in hindsight he was right and Biggar was wrong.

I also think AWJ would have a better idea than Dan Biggar as to whether the forwards were on top, need a break etc.!!

It all looked quite odd, and I don't think decision making process or the subsequent press conference will make it to the top of AWJ's Lions captaincy application.

[fa0019]

I think players need to think about the team rather than their stats. If its in the opposition half a player of Halfpenny's range bar the far regions of the halfway line should have a crack.

Say your % goes down from 80% to 60% from there? Whats the % of scoring from a lineout 5m out?

If the kick is still 50/50 I'd still say its probably statistically better than a lineout unless you need the points.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It was an odd call by AWJ and to be honest despite playing well I think Gray, Lawes and Launchbury have all been better.

[Gwlad]

Warburton or Best at this point and based on Gats reputed relationship with Best and Warburtons experience and form i'd pick him.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Jonny is another who is not ready to captain the lions.  He can captain Glasgow as he has a group of senior familiar players around him and a cohesive team.  I rate the guy very highly but I don't think he could captain a group of older players and form them into a team

I agree, big VC didn't burden him with the Scottish captaincy. I think he'd be really uncomfortable with the Lions captaincy. Only Barclay from Scotland I'd say would be in contention. Personally I'd pick Warburton, but since AWJ was made Wales captain he's been magnificent.

Best is also in quite a shout but I don't know if he is better than Ken Owens or Jamie George.

Sexton isn't a bad shout but something tells me Gatland will want a forward.

He's played well, but there will be questions raised over his handling of Dan Biggar in the Scotland game and his admission that he wanted to go for goal but was overruled by Biggar (who wasn't even the goal kicker). Not exactly Churchillian leadership qualities, and whilst it's probably attracting more attention that it ordinarily would due to the Welsh 2nd half capitulation, given the close call this will undoubtedly be this isn't helpful to his case.

I still think Gatland will go for either AWJ or Warburton.

I meant Warburton. He's played better since AWJ was made captain

[BigTrevsbigmac]

So turning it on its head if Warburton were made captain would there not then be too big a risk that his form would regress with the added burden.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well, it can't be Hartley anyway. He doesn't even know the rules of the game.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Well, it can't be Hartley anyway. He doesn't even know the rules of the game.

Not many suggesting it should be Hartley yet - he has to up his form. We were talking about Sam.

[Guest]

I'd not choose a Welsh player for captain. At all. Don't care who he is, as long as he's not Welsh.

[nathan]

Lots of rugby still to be played.

[Gwlad]

Well, it can't be Hartley anyway. He doesn't even know the rules of the game.

But he's excellent at breaking them

[majesticimperialman]

Well, it can't be Hartley anyway. He doesn't even know the rules of the game.

Not many suggesting it should be Hartley yet - he has to up his form. We were talking about Sam.

Would that be Warburton, por Davis?

If it was meant to be Warburton, then i think you might be disappointed. 1st he iis not guaranteed to start , or even if he will be fit enough ( Normally ends up injured ) before games like the Lions. Though in my mind he as been playing better since AWJ taken over the Captains arm band.

I think if it as to a forward who take's the captain's arm band. The we might be looking ay Launcburry, Johnny Grey, The scotlands skipper this week end.( can't think of his name.)

Or does it have to be a forward? could it be someone like Owen Farrell? Greg Laidlaw? if he is fit enough.

[RuggerRadge2611]

I'd have Laidlaw as solid dirt track leader. There are far better Scrum halves available in the Lions Counries

[Cyril]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

[RuggerRadge2611]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

[Cyril]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

True. Farrell won't kick that badly again until his 100th cap. We do need Picamoles though if Billy or Falatau aren't up to speed though.

[Gwlad]

NZ must be licking their lips after this 6 Nations. Best throwing like a drunken loon against Scotland, Warbs stepping down, AWJ being scared by Biggar, Farrell kicking with his boots on the wrong foot, Heaslip awful against Scotland, Russell throwing no-look passes for the camera, Irish citings, England players having trouble with rucking. If only Picamoles was British.

Quite selective in the use of the facts.

Isn't it. Try this…the prime contender for Lions Capt Hartley playing like a schoolboy when he isn't banned.

[Cyril]

Strange how AWJ keeps making so-called Ronshaw mistakes game on game recently. We really are now at the stage where injured players' stock is rising rapidly in terms of leadership. Glad, your classic prediction skills continue apace

[The Great Aukster]

No one is in the same league as England when making captaincy blunders - as Guscott says they're not used to thinking on their feet. However Gatland won't want anyone who is 1. brutally honest or 2. threatens his alpha male status in a press conference - so Hartley still has to be in pole position.

[quinsforever]

martin johnson did pretty well as captain of lions first then england. AWJ can't live up to martin johnson in the leadership stakes.

so who can?

cant be anyone from the wales setup as its clear they are lacking confidence in each other and that spills over.

personally, i might take a flyer on Itoje. He adapted quickest to Italy's no-ruck tactic. He captained england well in the u20 rwc. He's a leader by example, he's all about the team, and he's feisty and in your face in a way that might serve the Lions well in NZ.

Compared to Best, Hartley, AWJ, Warbs, Laidlaw (injured and probably second to Murray anyway), Itoje all of a sudden looks quite good.

[quinsforever]

and yes he's English (i know thats a negative for most), but he's also 22, black and not a national team captain, all of which sidestep the usual nationality argument for me.

[Cyril]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

[Gwlad]

martin johnson did pretty well as captain of lions first then england. AWJ can't live up to martin johnson in the leadership stakes.

so who can?

cant be anyone from the wales setup as its clear they are lacking confidence in each other and that spills over.

personally, i might take a flyer on Itoje. He adapted quickest to Italy's no-ruck tactic. He captained england well in the u20 rwc. He's a leader by example, he's all about the team, and he's feisty and in your face in a way that might serve the Lions well in NZ.

Compared to Best, Hartley, AWJ, Warbs, Laidlaw (injured and probably second to Murray anyway), Itoje all of a sudden looks quite good.

Johnson lead the Lions to its most humiliating moment in 2001.

Itoje is simply hilarious. As Eddie says he is way off being ready to captain his country and has never played NZ to my knowledge, but yes, that makes him a good candidate for Lions Captain?

[Scottrf]

Itoje has never lost an international match to be fair.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

The English seem to follow too, apparently. In this instance, a native from New Zealand.

At least you've finally gone down the foreign coach route as well - that one might have actually worked for you.

[Gwlad]

Itoje has never lost an international match to be fair.

True, he has a massive 10 caps.

so he is really well qualified to lead the lions in NZ then?

[Gwlad]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

The English seem to follow too, apparently. In this instance, a native from New Zealand.

At least you've finally gone down the foreign coach route as well - that one might have actually worked for you.

In all my years of rugby i have never seen coach behave as petulantly as Eddie did on Saturday, talk about bringing the game into disrepute.

Pretty sure the RFU will be having a serious word in his ear this week.

[lostinwales]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

The English seem to follow too, apparently. In this instance, a native from New Zealand.

At least you've finally gone down the foreign coach route as well - that one might have actually worked for you.

In all my years of rugby i have never seen coach behave as petulantly as Eddie did on Saturday, talk about bringing the game into disrepute.

Pretty sure the RFU will be having a serious word in his ear this week.

Yep, they'll say something like 'how dare you only win 17 games in a row. Don't come back until you get the world record

[Cyril]

Poor old Gwlad and his impotent tears of rage.

So angry and so silly.

[Gwlad]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

The English seem to follow too, apparently. In this instance, a native from New Zealand.

At least you've finally gone down the foreign coach route as well - that one might have actually worked for you.

In all my years of rugby i have never seen coach behave as petulantly as Eddie did on Saturday, talk about bringing the game into disrepute.

Pretty sure the RFU will be having a serious word in his ear this week.

Yep, they'll say something like 'how dare you only win 17 games in a row. Don't come back until you get the world record

no, only 16 since according to Eddie 'Dummy' Jones Saturday wasn't a game of rugby (repeat ad nauseam)

[quinsforever]

Itoje hasnt lost against NZ either. In fact he's beaten them in u20 RWC.

Gatland certainly has to try something radical if the Lions are to stand a chance.

And gatball with warbs or awj as captain wont even be worth watching.

[rodders]

No one is in the same league as England when making captaincy blunders - as Guscott says they're not used to thinking on their feet.

I'm not sure about that Aukster, coming up with the idea of asking the referee to clarify what a ruck is, how it relates to the offside rule and for advice how to create one, live on TV, was refreshingly innovative leadership.

[SecretFly]

No one is in the same league as England when making captaincy blunders - as Guscott says they're not used to thinking on their feet.

I'm not sure about that Aukster, coming up with the idea of asking the referee to clarify what a ruck is, how it relates to the offside rule and for advice how to create one, live on TV, was refreshingly innovative leadership.

I'm close to solving it all but not quite there yet:

[fa0019]

Whoever is captain there will be leaders throughout the 23.

I imagine Hartley, Itoje, Jones, Warburton, Murray,  Sexton and Farrell to be involved so whoever is captain they won't be some lone ranger.

Hartley has to get it if England win the GS. It would be madness not to as who cares if they and he have been playing badly... winning games when you play well/dominant doesn't necessarily mean you have good leaders but forever winning when you're always under the cosh does.

Otherwise throw it to Sexton.

[fa0019]

No one is in the same league as England when making captaincy blunders - as Guscott says they're not used to thinking on their feet.

I'm not sure about that Aukster, coming up with the idea of asking the referee to clarify what a ruck is, how it relates to the offside rule and for advice how to create one, live on TV, was refreshingly innovative leadership.

I'm close to solving it all but not quite there yet:

I would say though that Poite was obviously ready for it. Had they just done it he would have been perplexed as England were. Look into how referees responded when the Chiefs did it... they didn't have a clue and in fact they gave penalties against the chiefs when in reality they'd found a loophole and were legally within their rights.

[SecretFly]

Whoever is captain there will be leaders throughout the 23.

I imagine Hartley, Itoje, Jones, Warburton, Murray,  Sexton and Farrell to be involved so whoever is captain they won't be some lone ranger.

Hartley has to get it if England win the GS. It would be madness not to as who cares if they and he have been playing badly... winning games when you play well/dominant doesn't necessarily mean you have good leaders but forever winning when you're always under the cosh does.

Otherwise throw it to Sexton.

Gatland has issues with Sexton's temperament. Namely it's something like his own - salty and snappy and not fully a 'team player' in that he makes side-comments directed at anybody he likes and doesn't like being dropped because of any slim non-team-player excuses

Nope, it'll never be Sexton. Sexton mightn't even make the plane.

[SecretFly]

No one is in the same league as England when making captaincy blunders - as Guscott says they're not used to thinking on their feet.

I'm not sure about that Aukster, coming up with the idea of asking the referee to clarify what a ruck is, how it relates to the offside rule and for advice how to create one, live on TV, was refreshingly innovative leadership.

I'm close to solving it all but not quite there yet:

I would say though that Poite was obviously ready for it. Had they just done it he would have been perplexed as England were. Look into how referees responded when the Chiefs did it... they didn't have a clue and in fact they gave penalties against the chiefs when in reality they'd found a loophole and were legally within their rights.

It's already on record... not that I saw the record but someone here alluded to it - and I trust Everyone here .... that O'Shea had a meeting with Poite to ask about the issue and enquire about how to keep it all legal. So he did know, if that meeting actually happened.

When he said that 'I'm a ref not your coach' bit he was probably referring to the idea that it was too late for players to be asking him how to counteract a legal move - rather that was the role of their coach, before the game. If Eddie never considered it then so be it - Poite is ref, not coach.

[rodders]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

[fa0019]

Whoever is captain there will be leaders throughout the 23.

I imagine Hartley, Itoje, Jones, Warburton, Murray,  Sexton and Farrell to be involved so whoever is captain they won't be some lone ranger.

Hartley has to get it if England win the GS. It would be madness not to as who cares if they and he have been playing badly... winning games when you play well/dominant doesn't necessarily mean you have good leaders but forever winning when you're always under the cosh does.

Otherwise throw it to Sexton.

Gatland has issues with Sexton's temperament.  Namely it's something like his own - salty and snappy and not fully a 'team player' in that he makes side-comments directed at anybody he likes and doesn't like being dropped because of any slim non-team-player excuses

Nope, it'll never be Sexton.  Sexton mightn't even make the plane.

Could Biggar or Farrell ever do the Sexton loop?

He does it about twice a game, should be something every team should know how to counter but everyone falls for it.

[fa0019]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

[SecretFly]

Whoever is captain there will be leaders throughout the 23.

I imagine Hartley, Itoje, Jones, Warburton, Murray,  Sexton and Farrell to be involved so whoever is captain they won't be some lone ranger.

Hartley has to get it if England win the GS. It would be madness not to as who cares if they and he have been playing badly... winning games when you play well/dominant doesn't necessarily mean you have good leaders but forever winning when you're always under the cosh does.

Otherwise throw it to Sexton.

Gatland has issues with Sexton's temperament.  Namely it's something like his own - salty and snappy and not fully a 'team player' in that he makes side-comments directed at anybody he likes and doesn't like being dropped because of any slim non-team-player excuses

Nope, it'll never be Sexton.  Sexton mightn't even make the plane.

Could Biggar or Farrell ever do the Sexton loop?

He does it about twice a game, should be something every team should know how to counter but everyone falls for it.

I was going to reply to your initial question - but you already gave my response in the second sentence, fa Thanks.

[SecretFly]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

He was too pumped up - he's a damn 9, fa! We all know what they're like, always half a step away from a mental breakdown.

[Gooseberry]

Best yes, Sexton no.

Itoje is possibly the stupidest suggestion of all. He has the leadership charecteristics of a towel and is undoutably one of the players Jones was bemoaning as lacking that authority and assertiveness. Sure he plays great and shows some spunk but could you imagine him balling out AWJ for a lineout error, or kicking Sexton and Earls into line when they are squabbling over who gets to play with the transformers? No just no. It has to be someone with a forceful personality and whos been around enough to command the respect of the senior players. For a Lions tour you need a lot more than leading by example in terms of play.

Even more so if Ireland win the six nations I think Best has a strong chance, although it appeared such a stitch up for AWJ a few months back I beleive hes still a strong contender too. Hartleys becoming an outsider, and going back to Warburton would be a thing for sure. Entire Scotland team dark horse candidates. Farrells a wild card possible but unless he gets the England captaincy first I just dont see it.

[Gooseberry]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

Hopefully the first thing he'd notice is how awful that haircut is

(Side note to point out that it didn't take them 55 minutes to notice and the law interpretations are not clear and cosnitently applied in that situation ... but hey ho keep peddling the same ITV line)

[SecretFly]

Alun Wayne Jones will get his reprieve in his next game.  The result is already in. (68 - 2) home win.

[Geordie]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

Not really?

[Scottrf]

Number of tries England scored before commentators noticed the tactic (about the 20 minute mark): 0.
Number of tries England scored between the time they noticed and the 55 minute mark: 3.

[SecretFly]

Number of tries England scored before commentators noticed the tactic (about the 20 minute mark): 0.
Number of tries England scored between the time they noticed and the 55 minute mark: 3.

ITV commentators?

That figures "It's a GOAL!!!!"

[beshocked]

Best yes, Sexton no.

Itoje is possibly the stupidest suggestion of all. He has the leadership charecteristics of a towel and is undoutably one of the players Jones was bemoaning as lacking that authority and assertiveness. Sure he plays great and shows some spunk but could you imagine him balling out AWJ for a lineout error, or kicking Sexton and Earls into line when they are squabbling over who gets to play with the transformers? No just no. It has to be someone with a forceful personality and whos been around enough to command the respect of the senior players. For a Lions tour you need a lot more than leading by example in terms of play.

Even more so if Ireland win the six nations I think Best has a strong chance, although it appeared such a stitch up for AWJ a few months back I beleive hes still a strong contender too. Hartleys becoming an outsider, and going back to Warburton would be a thing for sure. Entire Scotland team dark horse candidates. Farrells a wild card possible but unless he gets the England captaincy first I just dont see it.

Very unfair on Itoje. You do realise he's captained two winning teams right? England U20s and LV Cup winning team.

Itoje has 10 caps for England and yet he was one of the most composed players vs Italy.

Yes I think he could potentially do those things. A 2nd row is a good position to pick a captain because locks are generally imposing.

Itoje is also eloquent and when he gives away a penalty gets on with it, I think he'd get on well with refs.

He also always tries to motivate other players by celebrating a lot, normally after scrums. Winds up the opposition too.

I don't think you need to be forceful if you lead by example and are well respected..

You don't think someone with U20s,LV Cup, 2 x AP titles, HC and GS would be well respected? Also was European player of the year.

[pbuk0]

Problem at the moment is that none of the contenders for Captain are guaranteed a start in first test. Do they have to appoint Captain before start of the tour?
Take non playing tour captain ie  Jason Leonard or Martin Johnson or whoever . Appoint 5 lieutenants as second in command ie Best, AWJ, Warburton, Farrell, Hartley if selected.. Over the first couple weeks they can appoint a playing Captain after seeing them perform in the first few games..

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