The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

[No9]

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

[Hammersmith harrier]

That's not a fair reflection of Itoje at all, he was after all the one admonishing the players to get on with it on Sunday, he went as far as to shepherd Launchbury away from the referee at one point too.

[Geordie]

That's not a fair reflection of Itoje at all, he was after all the one admonishing the players to get on with it on Sunday, he went as far as to shepherd Launchbury away from the referee at one point too.

He also told Haskell to shut up when he first went to the ref with his questions.

[funnyExiledScot]

martin johnson did pretty well as captain of lions first then england. AWJ can't live up to martin johnson in the leadership stakes.

so who can?

cant be anyone from the wales setup as its clear they are lacking confidence in each other and that spills over.

personally, i might take a flyer on Itoje. He adapted quickest to Italy's no-ruck tactic. He captained england well in the u20 rwc. He's a leader by example, he's all about the team, and he's feisty and in your face in a way that might serve the Lions well in NZ.

Compared to Best, Hartley, AWJ, Warbs, Laidlaw (injured and probably second to Murray anyway), Itoje all of a sudden looks quite good.

Johnson lead the Lions to its most humiliating moment in 2001.

Itoje is simply hilarious. As Eddie says he is way off being ready to captain his country and has never played NZ to my knowledge, but yes, that makes him a good candidate for Lions Captain?

Nope, that came under BOD (and Gareth Thomas) in 2005....

[GunsGermsV2]

Whoever is captain there will be leaders throughout the 23.

I imagine Hartley, Itoje, Jones, Warburton, Murray,  Sexton and Farrell to be involved so whoever is captain they won't be some lone ranger.

Hartley has to get it if England win the GS. It would be madness not to as who cares if they and he have been playing badly... winning games when you play well/dominant doesn't necessarily mean you have good leaders but forever winning when you're always under the cosh does.

Otherwise throw it to Sexton.

I don't see Itoje as a leader. He seems a quiet sort. The rest are leaders with the obvious inclusion of Best who has probably been the top performing current captain in contention.

[GunsGermsV2]

martin johnson did pretty well as captain of lions first then england. AWJ can't live up to martin johnson in the leadership stakes.

so who can?

cant be anyone from the wales setup as its clear they are lacking confidence in each other and that spills over.

personally, i might take a flyer on Itoje. He adapted quickest to Italy's no-ruck tactic. He captained england well in the u20 rwc. He's a leader by example, he's all about the team, and he's feisty and in your face in a way that might serve the Lions well in NZ.

Compared to Best, Hartley, AWJ, Warbs, Laidlaw (injured and probably second to Murray anyway), Itoje all of a sudden looks quite good.

Johnson lead the Lions to its most humiliating moment in 2001.

Itoje is simply hilarious. As Eddie says he is way off being ready to captain his country and has never played NZ to my knowledge, but yes, that makes him a good candidate for Lions Captain?

Nope, that came under BOD (and Gareth Thomas) in 2005....

Yeah all 60 seconds of BODs tenure as captain.

[SecretFly]

Itoje quiet? He was the one stirring the engine at the weekend both physically and vocally.

I've never really got the hype buzz about Itoje - but I liked his attitude at the weekend. I always knew he was a great athlete but yeah, went up a few notches in my estimation.

[funnyExiledScot]

martin johnson did pretty well as captain of lions first then england. AWJ can't live up to martin johnson in the leadership stakes.

so who can?

cant be anyone from the wales setup as its clear they are lacking confidence in each other and that spills over.

personally, i might take a flyer on Itoje. He adapted quickest to Italy's no-ruck tactic. He captained england well in the u20 rwc. He's a leader by example, he's all about the team, and he's feisty and in your face in a way that might serve the Lions well in NZ.

Compared to Best, Hartley, AWJ, Warbs, Laidlaw (injured and probably second to Murray anyway), Itoje all of a sudden looks quite good.

Johnson lead the Lions to its most humiliating moment in 2001.

Itoje is simply hilarious. As Eddie says he is way off being ready to captain his country and has never played NZ to my knowledge, but yes, that makes him a good candidate for Lions Captain?

Nope, that came under BOD (and Gareth Thomas) in 2005....

Yeah all 60 seconds of BODs tenure as captain.

I wasn't trying to suggest it was BOD's fault (although in the world according to Keith Earls, BOD could probably have done more not to land on his shoulder/neck....), more that the most humiliating moment(s) for the Lions did not come in 2001, but rather in 2005.

[GunsGermsV2]

2001 is a good example of poor leadership though. 2005 cant really be blamed on Gareth Thomas' leadership as it was dumped on him at the last minute.

I think POC should shoulder some blame for the 2009 Lions series loss in SA too. That was very winnable and we squandered a decent lead in the second test.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Noobody wants to point fingers about who did what but we lost that series because of one man.

As I said I don't want to point fingers but his name began with R and ended with onan O'Gara...

[funnyExiledScot]

2001 is a good example of poor leadership though. 2005 cant really be blamed on Gareth Thomas' leadership as it was dumped on him at the last minute.

I think POC should shoulder some blame for the 2009 Lions series loss in SA too. That was very winnable and we squandered a decent lead in the second test.

I'm not entirely sure I'd blame 2009 on poor leadership. The injuries in that 2nd Test were ridiculous, and not much POC could do about those. Similarly in 2001, a couple of key injuries had a big impact in that 2nd Test, and Wilkinson chucking the ball to Joe Roff also hard to blame on Johnson.

I sometimes think the role of the captain can be overplayed.

[GunsGermsV2]

Noobody wants to point fingers about who did what but we lost that series because of one man.

As I said I don't want to point fingers but his name began with R and ended with onan O'Gara...

He is the scape goat for sure but the Lions should never have been in that position as they previously had a very healthy lead in that game. A better side would have closed it out.

ROG should not have been on the field either as he had just been concussed. The management to blame for that.

Rogs brain fart accounted for 3 points, the Lions front row failures accounted for about 20 points in the first test.

[fa0019]

2001 is a good example of poor leadership though. 2005 cant really be blamed on Gareth Thomas' leadership as it was dumped on him at the last minute.

I don't think 2001 was bad leadership on Jonno's side necessarily.

It was a very competitive series but look at the players of that tour on inception and those who got injured throughout the tour. Hill, Dillaglio, Howley, Greenwood. Those were massive players in key positions.

I don't think it was well managed by Henry either who lets be honest man managed a lot of players wrongly... I mean it was the one period when Iain Balshaw was on fire but he ended up losing the test jersey to Matt Perry.

Then again they played the world champs who went on to win the 3N that season. It was a series against probably the best side in the world at the time and they took them to the wire at home. Sure I think they underachieved but I don't think it was a crisis of leadership.

The problem in 2005 and in 2009 was as much complacency as anything else. Half those players were lions beforehand, they'd had the jersey and yet to the opposition this was the only time they would ever face them. The intensity in the 1st tests of both tours were mis-calculated regardless of player selection. The lions look like kittens in both matches compared, SA took their foot off the gas and let guys like Mike Phillips back into the match but the 1st test in 09 was salvaged by individual performances rather than by team efforts (such as the following test in 09 which was a classic).

[Scottrf]

Best led Ireland to a loss against Scotland, when he wasn't available Ireland won 63-10. Yet some people want him to be Lions captain.

[GunsGermsV2]

Of course you dont. He is your all time hero.

[rodders]

I think POC should shoulder some blame for the 2009 Lions series loss in SA too. That was very winnable and we squandered a decent lead in the second test.

No way we'd have stuffed them 3-0 but for Phil Vickery getting mushed in the scrum and the eejit from BT sport with the stupid glasses and jumpers didn't drop the ball over the line in the first test.

[quinsforever]

Ultimately whoever is captain accounts for little as long as they dont create divisions within the team.

which, given that gatland is coach, it's hard to see any choice of captain being more divisive than gatland is and already has been.

[GunsGermsV2]

Best led Ireland to a loss against Scotland, when he wasn't available Ireland won 63-10. Yet some people want him to be Lions captain.

And he recently captained Ireland to wins against NZ, Australia, SA in SA with 14 men and France but sure ignore that if you want.

No shame in a loss to Scotland at the moment. It was how Ireland rallied to regain the lead that Best showed his value as captain.

[Scottrf]

Best led Ireland to a loss against Scotland, when he wasn't available Ireland won 63-10. Yet some people want him to be Lions captain.

And he recently captained Ireland to wins against NZ, Australia, SA in SA with 14 men and France but sure ignore that if you want.

No shame in a loss to Scotland at the moment. It was how Ireland rallied to regain the lead that Best showed his value as captain.

A series loss against an awful SA you mean and 1 game each vs NZ.

[tigertattie]

Two choices for captain at the moment in my humble opinion

1. Best
2 Jonny Gray

Outside of this, it Warburton.

AWJ has shown that he a s good leader by example, but he is not captain material.

The issue first is picking a team then picking a captain. Best, Gray AWJ and Warburton are not guaranteed to be starting for the lions so............

[rodders]

...has to be Rob Kearney then.

[captain carrantuohil]

I wish to God that the selectors would just pick the Lions squad first and then decide who the best captain might be of those that at least deserve to be on the plane.

There ought to be enough leadership within the squad for the final choice to be acceptable in any case. Don't get too hung up on one individual who might be wasting a shirt and be brave enough to replace the original captaincy nomination for the Tests if it looks as though someone in his position is showing better form.

[RuggerRadge2611]

tour captain Sam Warburton and then pick team captains for each game.

[fa0019]

I think POC should shoulder some blame for the 2009 Lions series loss in SA too. That was very winnable and we squandered a decent lead in the second test.

No way we'd have stuffed them 3-0 but for Phil Vickery getting mushed in the scrum and the eejit from BT sport with the stupid glasses and jumpers didn't drop the ball over the line in the first test.  

I think the small fact of him having Lee Mears next to him didn't really help.

[SecretFly]

Heaslip it is. Starts everything, ends everything. Has to be beaten into a suitcase to get him away from the playing field. Three HCs, Three Pro12s, 1 Euro Challenge Cup, Three 6N, 1 Slam, 2 Lions tours, 1 winning Lions tour.

[captain carrantuohil]

Wouldn't mind Conor Murray getting the gig, myself. Leads by example, near enough guaranteed a Test spot as things stand and one of the few potential Lions to be clearly better than his opposite number in New Zealand. Quite like scrum-halves as captains, as it happens....

[nlpnlp]

I think one thing to take out of this is that Biggar is a gobsh!te and shouldn't be in the Welsh team and I certainly wouldn't dismiss AWJ as the Lions captain. I think it could well come down to the England Ireland showdown. if England win back to back grand slams the job is Hartley's. people criticising Hartley should remember he has only just come back from an enforced absence out of the game, so is still working himself back to full fitness and form. If Ireland win then I think Best will get the gig.

All that said I would not be surprised if Gatland did not drop his tour captain for 1 or more of the test matches if he thought the captain did not merit his place. As has been said there are a number of experienced players who could step in for a one-off.

Final point would love Barclay to have the opportunity to go, he reminds me of Finlay Calder who did a great job as captain of the Lions. He would have the respect of all nations, whereas AWJ, Hartley and Best may all have their detractors. if he was English and called Hill he would be hailed a s a "lege".

[fa0019]

Heaslip it is.  Starts everything, ends everything.  Has to be beaten into a suitcase to get him away from the playing field.  Three HCs, Three Pro12s, 1 Euro Challenge Cup, Three 6N, 1 Slam, 2 Lions tours, 1 winning Lions tour.

tours well in NZ too

[RuggerRadge2611]

I think one thing to take out of this is that Biggar is a gobsh!te and shouldn't be in the Welsh team and I certainly wouldn't dismiss AWJ as the Lions captain.  I think it could well come down to the England  Ireland showdown.  if England win back to back grand slams the job is Hartley's.  people criticising Hartley should remember he has only just come back from an enforced absence out of the game, so is still working himself back to full fitness and form.  If Ireland win then I think Best will get the gig.

All that said I would not be surprised if Gatland did not drop his tour captain for 1 or more of the test matches if he thought the captain did not merit his place.  As has been said there are a number of experienced players who could step in for a one-off.

Final point would love Barclay to have the opportunity to go, he reminds me of Finlay Calder who did a great job as captain of the Lions.  He would have the respect of all nations, whereas AWJ, Hartley and Best may all have their detractors.  if he was English and called Hill he would be hailed a s a "lege".

I think you have to. Robshaw's term as England captain ended in a similar fashion. It's not a democratic process. If he wants to go for the posts the discussion is over, it's not up to Biggar. If Halfpenny doesn't fancy it as the primary kicker then fair enough.

However forget the debacle on the pitch. the revelation at the post game press conference IMO put the nail in his Lions captain credentials.

Jones said: 'I would have liked to [go for the 3]. The kickers didn't want to, so we went for the corner.'

First off the kickers didn't want to doesn't wash with me. Biggar didn't want to, he has no say IMO since Halfpenny could have banged that one over no problem. Secondly to publicly come out after the game and ship potential blame on other players who overruled his decision is not the action of a captain IMO. He should have shouldered that responsibility to protect his players.

[SecretFly]

Heaslip it is.  Starts everything, ends everything.  Has to be beaten into a suitcase to get him away from the playing field.  Three HCs, Three Pro12s, 1 Euro Challenge Cup, Three 6N, 1 Slam, 2 Lions tours, 1 winning Lions tour.

tours well in NZ too

He's having his nearly-out-of-gas period, fa - like BOD had in 2009. When the juice is dying, the engine revs.

[fa0019]

Heaslip it is.  Starts everything, ends everything.  Has to be beaten into a suitcase to get him away from the playing field.  Three HCs, Three Pro12s, 1 Euro Challenge Cup, Three 6N, 1 Slam, 2 Lions tours, 1 winning Lions tour.

tours well in NZ too

He's having his nearly-out-of-gas period, fa - like BOD had in 2009.  When the juice is dying, the engine revs.

If he tours I can see him grabbing the jersey to be fair.

[beshocked]

I think one thing to take out of this is that Biggar is a gobsh!te and shouldn't be in the Welsh team and I certainly wouldn't dismiss AWJ as the Lions captain.  I think it could well come down to the England  Ireland showdown.  if England win back to back grand slams the job is Hartley's.  people criticising Hartley should remember he has only just come back from an enforced absence out of the game, so is still working himself back to full fitness and form.  If Ireland win then I think Best will get the gig.

All that said I would not be surprised if Gatland did not drop his tour captain for 1 or more of the test matches if he thought the captain did not merit his place.  As has been said there are a number of experienced players who could step in for a one-off.

Final point would love Barclay to have the opportunity to go, he reminds me of Finlay Calder who did a great job as captain of the Lions.  He would have the respect of all nations, whereas AWJ, Hartley and Best may all have their detractors.  if he was English and called Hill he would be hailed a s a "lege".

Hartley only has himself to blame for his 60 weeks of bans.... I know his significant fan club likes to believe - he's just a scapegoat.

Latest ban was O Brien's fault - he threw himself in Hartley's way....

How many games does Hartley need to get back to full fitness? He's played in 3 matches now in the 6 nations.

faa019 glad England aren't playing small hookers in the frontrow anymore.

captain carrantohuil Murray as captain is one of the more plausible suggestions.

Heaslip is another player whose not a guaranteed starter.

[No9]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

What a silly statement, edging on a racist comment.

• 1910 South Africa Tommy Smyth
  
• 1938 South Africa Sam Walker
  
• 1950 New Zealand Karl Mullen
  
• 1955 South Africa Robin Thompson
  
• 1959 Australia Ronnie Dawson
  
• 1968 South Africa Tom Kiernan
  
• 1974 South Africa Willie John McBride
  
• 1983 New Zealand Ciaran Fitzgerald
  
• 2005 New Zealand Brian O'Driscoll
  
• 2009 South Africa Paul O'Connell
  

Hope you intend to apologise....

[Barney McGrew did it]

Much as the haters will hate it - it's gonna be Hartley as the incumbent back-to-back GS winning captain. No other choice will come close.

[Scottrf]

Much as the haters will hate it - it's gonna be Hartley as the incumbent back-to-back GS winning captain. No other choice will come close.

[captain carrantuohil]

Incumbent back-to-back GS Captain, is it? He'd better be or there has to be some chance that he doesn't make the plane. Third-best hooker on the pitch against France, likewise against Wales (and hooked before the hour against both) and not enough captaincy nous to do anything about those dastardly Italian tactics, when he was once again surplus to requirements before an hour had passed.

Personally want my captain to be on the field for most of the 80 minutes and either because he's not playing well enough or because there is every chance he'll do something hot-headed and dim, Hartley probably won't be against NZ, who will bait him like a ginger step-child.

[Sin é]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

He was too pumped up - he's a damn 9, fa!  We all know what they're like, always half a step away from a mental breakdown.

Conor Murray is a 9 and he is a very cool customer.

[beshocked]

Well of course it's natural. Hartley will always have a significant fan base as long as he's part of a winning England side even if he's been dragged along by others.

I understand where the adoration comes from. I just personally don't agree with it.


Lions aren't England though and the adoration of some English fans doesn't mean other countries fans adore Hartley.

If Jones was Lions coach then Hartley would have already been named as captain of the Lions but he's not.


On that basis I'd still lean towards AWJ because he's a favourite of Gatland.

Coaches pick their favourites regardless of form.

Funnily enough the criticism of AWJ might harden Gatland's opinion just as criticism of Hartley makes Jones defend Hartley more and more.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Hartley isn't even the best hooker in England let alone the lions countries. Anyone with half a rugby brain knows Jamie George is a much better player.

Hartley still gets the job because Jones wants an animal as a captain which is fair enough I suppose.

I really don't think Hartley is a good player or leader.

I'd start George and have Launchberry captain England, but that's just my opinion.

[Cyril]

Irish follow. They don't lead.

It'll be a Welsh or English captain.

What a silly statement, edging on a racist comment.

• 1910 South Africa Tommy Smyth
  
• 1938 South Africa Sam Walker
  
• 1950 New Zealand Karl Mullen
  
• 1955 South Africa Robin Thompson
  
• 1959 Australia Ronnie Dawson
  
• 1968 South Africa Tom Kiernan
  
• 1974 South Africa Willie John McBride
  
• 1983 New Zealand Ciaran Fitzgerald
  
• 2005 New Zealand Brian O'Driscoll
  
• 2009 South Africa Paul O'Connell
  

Hope you intend to apologise....

I have no intention of apologising. Not sure why the race card is being pulled out here? Do you not think the Welsh are capable of leading?

[Cyril]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

He was too pumped up - he's a damn 9, fa!  We all know what they're like, always half a step away from a mental breakdown.

Conor Murray is a 9 and he is a very cool customer.

Unless someone has the audacity to tackle him. Then it's off to the press for a whinge

[RuggerRadge2611]

Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

[beshocked]

Well said ruggerradge2611.

Though saying that I have to defend Hartley a little - whether you like him or not (you know I definitely don't), he did lead England to their unbeaten run. He has to take some credit for that.

On the other hand I do feel a captain has to be the best in their position and the longer you leave in a player just down to their leadership, the longer it potentially damages the performance of a team.

Pick the best team then captain in my opinion.

It's why Murray would be one of the favourites for me.

[carpet baboon]

Phil Vickery.

Debate over

[RuggerRadge2611]

Phil Vickery.

Debate over

Does he still play or has he retired?

[carpet baboon]

Phil Vickery.

Debate over

Does he still play or has he retired?

Wash your mouth out radge.

[Sin é]

Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

MJ captained the losing tour to Australia which there was nothing but trouble emanating from it.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

MJ captained the losing tour to Australia which there was nothing but trouble emanating from it.

Ok I'll clarify :

WJM (South Africa 1974)
MJ (South Africa 1997)
Findlat Calder (Oz 1989)

[SecretFly]

If it took England 55 mins to work out that tactic, the AB's will have an absolute field day if any of those muppets involved on Sunday are selected for the Lions.

Nathan Hughes was the only player who understood what was going on and how to deal with it but had a terrible game otherwise.

I think Care really has to look himself in the mirror how he didn't see what was happening or how to counter it.

He was too pumped up - he's a damn 9, fa!  We all know what they're like, always half a step away from a mental breakdown.

Conor Murray is a 9 and he is a very cool customer.

Oh Sin. You have so much to learn about the game. I keep trying to teach you, but it goes in one ear and falls asleep before getting to the brain.

Murray is much too tall and too cool headed to be a 9. His number is 16.

[Geordie]

The bottom line is ...we're playing NZ IN NZ....!

We'll need more than one captain out there!!

[Sin é]

Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

MJ captained the losing tour to Australia which there was nothing but trouble emanating from it.

Ok I'll clarify :

WJM (South Africa 1974)
MJ (South Africa 1997)
Findlat Calder (Oz 1989)

If only Test series winners, John Dawes must surely be the greatest Lions Captain with the 1971 tour win over New Zealand?

Lions Test win percentages
v. Argentina - 86%
v. Australia - 74%
v. New Zealand - 16%
v. South Africa - 37%

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