England tour to Argentina

by propdavid_london Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent. Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

by robbo277 Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:59 am

mr_stonelea wrote:apologies if this has already been covered, but what channel will these games be on?

Normally Sky Sports for an England summer tour.

Both England games kick off at 8:15pm our time, which will make long days after 8:35am starts for the Lions!

by Margin_Walker Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:00 pm

Given he's spent much of the past two seasons starting for a NZ Super Rugby franchise, it's pretty safe to assume he's improved since he was at Edinburgh. It happens sometimes.

by beshocked Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:07 pm

ebop wrote:Yeah he is average but he has played in NZ don't you know. England have a penchant for all things kiwi.

Funny you say that because I think that's partly why Earle has been called up too.

He's had a stint with Cantebury.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:44 pm

beshocked wrote:
ebop wrote:Yeah he is average but he has played in NZ don't you know. England have a penchant for all things kiwi.

Funny you say that because I think that's partly why Earle has been called up too.

He's had a stint with Cantebury.

Where he scored tries for fun. Hasn't he had some game time in the LV and last weekend in the AP since he came back?

Still surprised that Haley isn't involved. Particularly given our lack of options at 15 and his lack of previous injuries.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:02 pm

Earle has had seven starts for Sarries this season (3 AP, 3 LV, 1 ECR)

Including bench appearances he has played 655 minutes

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:32 pm

Earle looks a real talent, good basics, very fast and strong. Looks about a year too soon for him though really, he needs to be first choice at Saracens which he may be next season.

by B91212 Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:37 pm

With a potential starting back back 3 of Goode, Maitland and Liam Williams then Earle will have his work cut out becoming a starter for Saracens. Maybe if he goes well for them during the Autumn internationals.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:42 pm

There are still whisperings that Goode may move on this summer across the channel.

by beshocked Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:44 pm

LondonTiger wrote:There are still whisperings that Goode may move on this summer across the channel.

If England continue to snub him I can understand why a nice payday might be of interest.

by B91212 Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:48 pm

EJ stated in interview straight after the 6N, when he was discussing the squad in relation to the 2019 WC that he felt the next 15 after Brown was already with the squad, but didn't mention who in particular. My guess is Watson but of course it could be Daly or even Nowell. So if he had picked a back up to Brown for this tour they could be potentially 5th choice 15 at best. I'm yet to be convinced by Haley at Sale anyway. Did anyone see Ben Spencer cream him for pace earlier in the season?

by B91212 Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:50 pm

beshocked wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:There are still whisperings that Goode may move on this summer across the channel.

If England continue to snub him I can understand why a nice payday might be of interest.

Toulon could be looking for a 15 if Halfpenny moves on. Continue the partnership with Ashton maybe.

by B91212 Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:53 pm

Not surprised to see Robson miss out either. In the same interview as mentioned above EJ said he was still looking for a 3rd scrum half. This was after Robson had already been in the wider training squad. Gave me the impression he had already made his mind up about him.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:00 pm

That would mean he's ditching one of youngs and care?

by Geordie Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:47 pm

Could we finish one of the games with both the Curry's, Isiekwe etc all on the pitch.

That's a big push toward the future.

The Curry's reputations are sky high already as is Isiekwes

by ChequeredJersey Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:55 pm

ebop wrote:Yeah he is average but he has played in NZ don't you know. England have a penchant for all things kiwi.

I thought the consensus was that he was very good last year at 12 for the Blues

by mikey_dragon Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:13 pm

It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:14 pm

Yeah he's only born here.

by Margin_Walker Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:40 pm

Have you heard the bloke speak Mikey? He's born and raised in England, only over in NZ playing a bit of rugby.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That would mean he's ditching one of youngs and care?

More likely that he knows Danny Care is now 30 and still has limitations. Youngs is 27 and whilst excellent when in form he does tend to have fluctuations in form. A young gun who can push them would be useful. Robson will now be desperate to prove a point, Simpson and Spencer to. In the mean time Eddie Jones gets to work with Maunder and get him in to the England system, set a standard and get the young player working towards it.

by mikey_dragon Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:11 pm

Margin_Walker wrote:Have you heard the bloke speak Mikey? He's born and raised in England, only over in NZ playing a bit of rugby.

No. And no I didn't have the slightest idea sorry. I was just curious and I wouldn't be bothered even if he was a kiwi, otherwise I'd mention Denny. Eddie is doing a good job of increasing strength in depth here. He's also stated that England will get a series win. Unless Argentina are resting a raft of players it probably wasn't a good idea to say that.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

by Heaf Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:51 pm

Will be interesting to see how big Joe from LI gets on ...

by mikey_dragon Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:22 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

by DaveM Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:23 pm

What an exciting squad. Whilst on one level it is disappointing to see that players like Brown and Wood are likely to get game time, on the other hand having some experience around feels like the right thing to do.

Front row: This is Genge's opportunity to really put his hand up for the AIs. We can see LCD is ahead of Taylor. I think EJ is quite rightly very keen to identify another credible TH option, as I'd say we have less depth there than in any other position, so it will be particularly interesting to see how Collier and Williams go.

Second row: England have fantastic strength in depth so EJ has obviously decided to focus on developing another WC player rather than giving time to a number of perfectly decent AP second rows. Isiekwe looks to have the talent to force his way into the reckoning before 2019, but I bet he didn't expect this.

Backrow: The flanks are obviously an area of relative weakeness for England, so it is great to see 3 talented young players going. I would assume Underhill will get a go at 7, and at this stage I think the Curry's are mainly there to let the England coaches work with them. If Robshaw or Haskell get called up by the Lions this could change. I wonder if there is only one No.8 in the squad because EJ sees Haskell's future there?

SH: Robson has had a disappointing season, so it looks like EJ has identified Maunder as the player to develop working towards 2019. This is another area where England can certainly improve.

FH: I think Ford's size will eventually see him lose his place to Farrell, and I think Lozowski has the potential to be a matchday squad player when we are back at full strength. Hopefully he will get to start a Test. It will be intersting to see if Slade or Francis feature at 10 at-all, or if they are both seen as 12's.

Centres: Brilliant to see Mallinder selected. I don't think he'll play in the centres this tour (although I think there is a small chance he might appear at FB or even on the wing), but hopefully the England coaches will be able to improve his defence as when I've seen him this season his attacking play has been fantastic. I'd like to see James given starts in both Tests, once at 12 (Lozowski, James, Marchant) and once at 13 (Ford, Slade, James), as I think he can bring a nice balance.

Wings: Cokanasiga must be a contender for the rawest player ever selected for England in the professional era? Exciting talent, but off the bench at most at this stage. Like Mallinder though, an excellent opportunity for the England coaches to work with him. I'm a big fan of Earl and I think he could displace May from the senior squad if he has a good tour. Solomona is another hugely talented player, and whilst I would prefer the rules were changed so we couldn't select him, I'm still excited about seeing him play.

FB: One of Slade, Earl, Lozowski or Mallinder must be the nominal back-up to Brown. I have no idea which one though.

So, an opportunity to build strength in depth in the front row and at 9, to bring on another world class second row, to identify and work with potentially world class options at 6 and 7, and perhaps the opportunity to start to move us on from the Ford, Farrell combination at 10/12. Huge talent in the wings selected, and if one of them can make a mark then it can only push Watson, Daly and Nowell. I think this is an excellent use of the tour. Even if we lose, if a couple of the youngsters put their hands up in the relatively weaker positions for England then it will have been worthwhile.

by kingelderfield Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:37 pm

robbo277 wrote:
mr_stonelea wrote:apologies if this has already been covered, but what channel will these games be on?

Normally Sky Sports for an England summer tour.

Both England games kick off at 8:15pm our time, which will make long days after 8:35am starts for the Lions!

I don't know why, but 4 years ago at the same juncture the Beeb picked up both games, which was just as it should be.

Sky will probably stream them offline.

by Poorfour Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:29 pm

Good analysis Dave.

The way I see it, Eddie's selected the strongest core he can and then players he wants to develop. As you say, he's skipping over the more mature but second tier players in favour of the rawer but higher potential ones. So far it's a strategy that's worked pretty well with Sinckler, Itoje, Daly and to some extent Hill, and a little less so with Slade and Clifford (but according to Quins he's been carrying a shoulder injury all season and is having surgery over the summer).

I don't expect he will experiment more than is necessary - he hasn't so far and won't want to deliberately weaken the team - but beyond the forced changes I think the key one will be trying out some of the new options at 7. Changes at FB and SH I'd expect to see off the bench rather than starting.

by lostinwales Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:01 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:47 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

by Gwlad Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:11 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Where his head is.

by Steve_rugby Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:28 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Are you sure ?

by Gwlad Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:25 am

No, I've got bad gas so i expect yours is up there Shocked

by **LondonTiger** Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:07 am

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but in interview after the announcement Jones said:

-> Glenn Ella will be joining the coaching team for the duration of teh pre-tour prep and teh tour itself. He will be looking at attack
-> Jones will spend more time than usual with the forwards.
-> Gustard will take on responsibility for the lineout alongside his defence and breakdown remit.

when talking about the selections he said:

-> That he was taking the chance to look at a new bunch of players.
-> That he was looking for guys who could become better than teh 16 lions
-> that if he can develop 3 or 4 players from the kids who become better than those on the lions tour he would deem it a success.

My read on that latter section is that EJ is telling us, and the players missing out, that having seen them in and around the squad he views them as competing for replacement, injury cover slots at best. He is challenging them to prove him wrong.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:51 am

Got to love some Eddie mind games. They'll be a few players really smarting after that team announcement.

by robbo277 Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:00 am

kingelderfield wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
mr_stonelea wrote:apologies if this has already been covered, but what channel will these games be on?

Normally Sky Sports for an England summer tour.

Both England games kick off at 8:15pm our time, which will make long days after 8:35am starts for the Lions!

I don't know why, but 4 years ago at the same juncture the Beeb picked up both games, which was just as it should be.

Sky will probably stream them offline.

It might not be Sky. They don't have a Sky Sports logo next to the fixture as they do with the Lions game and even the SA/France game. Could be BBC, or BT sport? It's amazing how disorganised rugby seems compared to football and even cricket in these regards.

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/fixtures-results/10-June-2017

by Gooseberry Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:01 am

*Phil Vickery joke*

by No 7&1/2 Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:04 am

So the baa baas game is affected player available ulity wise by the prem final? Will interesting if Exeter get there and wasps don't in relation to scrum half.

The tv rights were bought last time by the bbc at the last minute, no one was going to show them until a couple of weeks beforehand.

by robbo277 Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the baa baas game is affected player available ulity wise by the prem final? Will interesting if Exeter get there and wasps don't in relation to scrum half.

The tv rights were bought last time by the bbc at the last minute, no one was going to show them until a couple of weeks beforehand.

The Baa Baas game is always affected by the Premiership final and I'm okay with that. Less okay with them putting a full-capped International on that weekend though!

If think I remember watching a grainy stream of the 2009 series on my laptop at uni, I guess no-one picked them up then? Hopefully someone does this time or it might be that again!

by beshocked Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:20 am

Generally I am perhaps the grumpiest England fan on here but I am happy with the squad.

I can see why certain players missed out.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The tv rights were bought last time by the bbc at the last minute, no one was going to show them until a couple of weeks beforehand.

The first match four years ago against the South American XV was only available live on a stream hosted by ESPN Deportes, the Spanish-language channel.

by mikey_dragon Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:57 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

by Gooseberry Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:05 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

England tour to Argentina - Page 6 Cb5ea710

by No 7&1/2 Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:32 am

Was it just highlights on the beeb then rugby fan. I remember wade and Morgan combining wonderfully but didn't watch it online.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:38 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

I dare you to go to Yorkshire and start telling them they are Scottish and not English. See how well they take that.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:50 am

I am half Yorkshire (Mum) and I have to say that my Yorkie relatives are more stereo-typically Scottish than anyone I have ever met Very Happy

by Gooseberry Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:03 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

I dare you to go to Yorkshire and start telling them they are Scottish and not English. See how well they take that.

Doubly so if they got picked for the Lions

by Cyril Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:07 am

I'm a Yorkshireman and it's a funny one how it's often seen as almost autonomous from England. We do win a lot of Olympic medals though.

You don't hear the same comments about many other counties.

by Gooseberry Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:09 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljy4EnAgYJ0

by Recwatcher16 Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:19 pm

Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland !

After all the Lions hoopla - George Ford really has a clear run to further establish his England fly half credentials with a more traditional inside centre.
The bigger question is who will play 12 in Argentina and if it is Slade then Ford is in danger of not being able to move to a different style as Slade is more of a like for like with Farrell. When Sexton gets injured and Farrell & Teo have a succesful run at 10/12 for the Lions then Eddie Jones will have a decision to make.

Also looking forward to seeing Underhill get a run out. There seems to be a perception that England flankers are behind the Irish and Welsh versions, which not sure is the case at all but EJ does need some further options to the smash the breakdown approach offered by Haskell /Wood.

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:23 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

I dare you to go to Yorkshire and start telling them they are Scottish and not English. See how well they take that.

Err................. Sir Ian McGeechan, born and bred in Yorkshire with a 50/50 parental split......................said he always knew he was Scottish

by SecretFly Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:45 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:It's news to me that Francis is eligible for England... is Eddie Jones in danger of becoming the next Andy Robinson?

Francis is 100% English but took the chance to play for Wales. Good luck to him, good player who will only improve.

Yorkshire isn't English...

Where would you suggest it is?

Scotland

I dare you to go to Yorkshire and start telling them they are Scottish and not English. See how well they take that.

Err................. Sir Ian McGeechan, born and bred in Yorkshire with a 50/50 parental split......................said he always knew he was Scottish

Did he pick many for the Lions?

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