Ireland Summer tour.

First topic message reminder :

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:You are not allowed to say big Iain is playing poorly/ to his potential. Its just not allowed. Even though he is clearly playing like a drain.

Very true, but as a Munster fan I'm sure you'll admit the biggest disappointment of the year has to be Jack O'Donoghue. What happened there? For all his potential he has had one extremely average season.

Donnacha Ryan against Sarries, surely? Empty jersey.

Ryan has been pretty spectacular all season, I thought, despite a poor game here and there. O'Donoghue was supposed to be the next big thing, the successor to Heaslip, but has been fairly anonymous at best. Thankfully, being dropped for the Sarries seems to have given him the good kick that he needed because he has really stepped up in the past two games.

It will be interesting to see if he makes the squad.

Will Dillane be available for this tour?

If not, and if Ryan isn't selected due to leaving Irish shores...could Treadwell be starting?

When is the squad named?

Just winding Geen Sport up.

Think the squad is named in the 15th?

Henderson will be a full time Lock next year for Ulster

Would have happened this year if it wasn't for Coetzee and Henry long term injuries and Wilson falling off a cliff physically

Any predictions for the squad? Let's say it is a squad of 32 (edited) which was the squad size for the South African tour last summer.

Mine, keeping in mind that the likes of Heaslip and Kearney are still injured:

Props - Dave Kilcoyne, Cian Healy, Finlay Bealham, John Ryan, Michael Bent (only other tighthead I can think of with Bealham covering loosehead)
Hookers - Niall Scannell, Sean Cronin, James Tracey
Locks - Toner, Dillane (if fit) or Roux, Treadwell, Holland
Back Row - Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier, Rhys Ruddock, Sean O'Brien (covering lock), Jack O'Donoghue
Halfbacks - Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath, Paddy Jackson, Joey Carbery
Centres - Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Rory Scannell
Back Three - Tiernan O'Halloran, Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Andrew Conway/Darren Sweetnam

I would have Stockdale, Byrne or Sweetnam instead of Trimble to be honest but I can't see that happening.

Can't see us taking only three second rows and Sean O'Brien as sufficient cover. Also, surely another prop is necessary?

There's really no leadership in that squad at all. Who would be captain? Ruddock, maybe? Possibly Jackson?

Having said that, I'm not sure who you could add that would provide some leadership. Henry's day has been and gone. Has Holland captained Munster? Wouldn't ordinarily have him ahead of any of the other locks but who would that team turn to if things start going wrong?

From that squad I'd reckon Ruddock or McGrath would captain. N. Scannell (I think), Jackson and Trimble also have experience captaining clubs/underage.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Any predictions for the squad? Let's say it is a squad of 31.

Mine, keeping in mind that the likes of Heaslip and Kearney are still injured:

Props - Dave Kilcoyne, Cian Healy, John Ryan, Finlay Bealham
Hookers - Niall Scannell, Sean Cronin, James Tracey
Locks - Toner, Dillane (if fit) or Roux, Treadwell
Back Row - Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier, Rhys Ruddock, Sean O'Brien (covering lock), Jack O'Donoghue
Halfbacks - Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath, Paddy Jackson, Joey Carbery
Centres - Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Rory Scannell
Back Three - Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Andrew Conway, Tiernan O'Halloran, Adam Byrne/Darren Sweetnam/Jacob Stockdale

I would have Stockdale instead of Trimble to be honest but I can't see that happening.

Too many back 3, low on props or locks I'd say

I actually forgot about the USA game and thought it was just two games against Japan, hence why there were less props/locks and more young players in the back row/back three to gain experience as part of the squad.

I'll revise the squad.

Candidates for captaincy in that squad:

Andrew Trimble - please no
Paddy Jackson - could be an option but would prefer a captain in the pack
Luke McGrath - probably won't start and not enough experience
Rhys Ruddock - possibly the best option in terms of experience and will probably start
Dan Leavy - captain at U20 level but lacks experience (probably form flanker in Ireland)
Jack O'Donoghue - see above, also hasn't been amazing this season
Sean O'Brien - see above, won't start
Billy Holland - experienced but hasn't impressed me as captain
Niall Scannell - I actually didn't realise he had captain experience, potential starter

Have I missed anyone? From that list the clear winner is Ruddock for me.

Will Jake Heenan or Tom McCartney be given a shout on either the US or Japanese legs of this tour?

Does Sean Reidy get another shout?

Ruddock would be a seasoned enough captain possibly unless Schmidt wants to develop the leadership group, in which case Paddy Jackson might be a choice for the Japanese tour.

Jake Heenan would easily be the weakest choice at 7 out of the provinces. Sean Reidy has been Ulster's player of the season for me, but doesn't have the ceiling of the likes of van der Flier, Leavy or young Oliver at Munster. He could make the squad though. McCartney will lose out to Cronin, Tracey and Scannell.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Jake Heenan would easily be the weakest choice at 7 out of the provinces. Sean Reidy has been Ulster's player of the season for me, but doesn't have the ceiling of the likes of van der Flier, Leavy or young Oliver at Munster. He could make the squad though. McCartney will lose out to Cronin, Tracey and Scannell.

Yep - don't disagree. Schmidt/Nucifora want to get to a 60 strong (4 deep ) squad for RWC 2023. 50 is the target number for RWC 2019.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Any predictions for the squad? Let's say it is a squad of 31.

Mine, keeping in mind that the likes of Heaslip and Kearney are still injured:

Props - Dave Kilcoyne, Cian Healy, John Ryan, Finlay Bealham
Hookers - Niall Scannell, Sean Cronin, James Tracey
Locks - Toner, Dillane (if fit) or Roux, Treadwell
Back Row - Jack Conan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier, Rhys Ruddock, Sean O'Brien (covering lock), Jack O'Donoghue
Halfbacks - Kieran Marmion, Luke McGrath, Paddy Jackson, Joey Carbery
Centres - Luke Marshall, Stuart McCloskey, Garry Ringrose, Rory Scannell
Back Three - Andrew Trimble, Craig Gilroy, Simon Zebo, Keith Earls, Andrew Conway, Tiernan O'Halloran, Adam Byrne/Darren Sweetnam/Jacob Stockdale

I would have Stockdale instead of Trimble to be honest but I can't see that happening.

Too many back 3, low on props or locks I'd say

Yes, those parts of the team that need practice and experience together - the forwards, need to take these opportunities to play in live situations. I'd definitely take Bent as he can play both sides in an emergency. I'd also like to see Moloney get a grounding as he looks a prospect.

Moloney, like O'Donoghue, hasn't had the most vintage year. However, both have great potential as players and leaders, so I would be happy to see them in the squad. I think both need to do some more bulking for their positions as they have the natural ability.

Young players by definition don't have the experience and make mistakes - Henderson and Treadwell are still young and make mistakes. Sometimes exposure and patience is needed to let them learn - ergo Moloney and JOD should certainly tour as they are both potentially Test class.

It isn't mistakes, it's impact. Henderson and Treadwell have made a serious impact this season, as have van der Flier (whose form has dipped somewhat), Leavy and Sean O'Brien for Connacht. 

Moloney and O'Donoghue haven't. JOD in particularly was renowned for his ball carrying prowess yet we have seen little of it this season. He needs to step up in that regard if he wants to seriously challenge Stander and Conan. He has had a good run since being dropped for the Sarries game though.

EDIT: I should say that Henderson has made a serious impact over the course of his career. He was quite poor for Ulster this season, but still very prominent in his games for Ireland.

Also, Saint Joe is a crap coach, discuss. Just to move the discussion here from the other thread.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Moloney, like O'Donoghue, hasn't had the most vintage year. However, both have great potential as players and leaders, so I would be happy to see them in the squad. I think both need to do some more bulking for their positions as they have the natural ability.

JOD's best game for Munster this season that I can remember was last week against Connacht. Munster played a more expansive gameplan and he looked more comfortable in that than the direct approach.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking recently. Maybe he just isn't suited to Munster's style of rugby. To be fair, he is often one pass away from receiving the ball in open play where he can do serious damage, and usually he ends up with a very high ruck count as a result. So his carrying numbers are often not as good as you would expect.

Still, I think when you aren't getting as much ball as you like, you just have to take the initiative and start making the hard yards. I don't know why he doesn't do this because he rarely goes backwards, always seems to fight for an extra yard or so.

Future Irish back row right here in the middle, perhaps?

profitius wrote:Rumours that James Ryan will be included in the squad.

He played for munster development team today so it looks like they're trying to get him playing as much as possible before the tour.

I saw that - interesting.

In a few years we could be stacked at the second row. Henderson, Treadwell, Dillane, Molony, Ryan, Wycherly, O'Shea, Gallagher...looking good.

Is the squad announcement today?

I heard it would be on Wednesday. Are you ready to get really outraged?

SportsJoe saying it'll be tomorrow the squad is announced

Joe Schmidt is expected to name his summer touring squad on Tuesday and there should be several new faces included.

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/massive-decisions-make-joe-schmidt-ahead-tuesday-squad-announcement-123382

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I heard it would be on Wednesday. Are you ready to get really outraged?

Nah, I'm well used to Schmidtforbrains at this point. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Kearney and McFadden in the back three and then read some plonker on here try and explain the mental gymnastics required for such a selection.

"They knows the systems".

marty2086 wrote:SportsJoe saying it'll be tomorrow the squad is announced

Joe Schmidt is expected to name his summer touring squad on Tuesday and there should be several new faces included.

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/massive-decisions-make-joe-schmidt-ahead-tuesday-squad-announcement-123382

Thanks Marty.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I heard it would be on Wednesday. Are you ready to get really outraged?

Nah, I'm well used to Schmidtforbrains at this point. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Kearney and McFadden in the back three and then read some plonker on here try and explain the mental gymnastics required for such a selection.

"They knows the systems".

"Schmidtforbrains"? That's pretty funny Rory. Are we to assume you are more intelligent that Joe Schmidt? At the very least I assume that a guy with 20 years coaching experience knows a little more about rugby than you.

What does it really matter who he picks anyway as long as the team is doing well? By the way can you remember the last time Ireland was a top seed for the RWC?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I saw that - interesting.

In a few years we could be stacked at the second row. Henderson, Treadwell, Dillane, Molony, Ryan, Wycherly, O'Shea, Gallagher...looking good.

Lot of potential there but some way to go before it turns into serious talent

Henderson aside.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I heard it would be on Wednesday. Are you ready to get really outraged?

Nah, I'm well used to Schmidtforbrains at this point. I wouldn't be too surprised to see Kearney and McFadden in the back three and then read some plonker on here try and explain the mental gymnastics required for such a selection.

"They knows the systems".

"Schmidtforbrains"? That's pretty funny Rory. Are we to assume you are more intelligent that Joe Schmidt? At the very least I assume that a guy with 20 years coaching experience knows a little more about rugby than you.

What does it really matter who he picks anyway as long as the team is doing well? By the way can you remember the last time Ireland was a top seed for the RWC?

I don't think I'm the one outraged, Guns. 

Come on Rory you know you love a good whinge when it comes to Schmidt's selections. Im sure it will be no different when the squad is announced.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I saw that - interesting.

In a few years we could be stacked at the second row. Henderson, Treadwell, Dillane, Molony, Ryan, Wycherly, O'Shea, Gallagher...looking good.

Lot of potential there but some way to go before it turns into serious talent

Henderson aside.

Indeed. They won't all work out but at least now we're seeing real potential emerge. Big difference from 2 years ago, even last year.

Some more names I'd include in the mix would be Oisín Dowling and Peter Claffey.

From the current under 20s side Jordan Larmour looks like a real prospect. Can see him breaking into the international side after the RWC.

Even if a few of those names live up to their potential we will be in a good place.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:From the current under 20s side Jordan Larmour looks like a real prospect. Can see him breaking into the international side after the RWC.

That will depend whether McFadden is still about. How's Larmour's rucking skills? Does he offload too much?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:From the current under 20s side Jordan Larmour looks like a real prospect. Can see him breaking into the international side after the RWC.

That will depend whether McFadden is still about. How's Larmour's rucking skills? Does he offload too much?

You whinge over nothing even more than Munster fans. That's some achievement.

The funny thing is that I'm actually a fan of Schmidt. There are some things that he does that aren't so good, though. Apparently that makes me a hater.

You're the beshocked of Irish rugby, Guns.

Maybe you are just one of those people just love a good whinge over nothing.

Irony, eh?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Irony, eh?

I'm sure you will lead the whinge brigade as soon as the squad is announced.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Irony, eh?

I'm sure you will lead the whinge brigade as soon as the squad is announced.

No way I'm in charge.

If only Rodders. I remember a time not that long ago when you were really depressed about the state of Irish rugby. Not really the case any more.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Irony, eh?

I'm sure you will lead the whinge brigade as soon as the squad is announced.

Bit ironic then that the most sensitive person to whining is doing the most whining.

profitius wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Irony, eh?

I'm sure you will lead the whinge brigade as soon as the squad is announced.

Bit ironic then that the most sensitive person to whining is doing the most whining.

Quite funny that you arrive on cue when people are whining over nothing about Schmidt. Im sure you will be whinging over nothing as usual too.

Guns is bored ( probably run out of conversation with the girlfriend - baa).

Howdy Dod ya auld scroat. How are things in Skibbereen?