Ireland Summer tour.

First topic message reminder :

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

I'm assuming O'Loughlin gets in because he is another centre covering wing. I think Gilroy gets unwarranted criticism at times. His confidence is probably shot since Italy, unsurprisingly. Reidy has been a lot better than TOD but isn't as talented as Leavy or vdF.

It's what Ulster deserve really.

I presume Cooney becomes an Ulster player as soon as Connacht's season finishes?

Pot Hale wrote:I presume Cooney becomes an Ulster player as soon as Connacht's season finishes?

He does, although technically I think it is the end of June, so on tour he is a Connacht player

From another forum:

"Keiran marmion and luke marshall are the 4th and 5th most experienced backs in the squad on 13 and 9 caps"

"The most experienced XV you could assemble from this squad has an average of only 19 international caps."

RE Gilroy, Schmidt knows what he gets with Gilroy, and if the other younger options don't work out he can always look at him again.

Can't see how Bealham covers both sides as there are only two THs and he's one!
Fair enough to see if Ruddock can cover lock as the only way he makes the 2019 squad is as a 5.5. I too would have liked to have seen SOB2 rather than TOD as competition for the 5.5 spot.
Cooney again is in as a potential 9.5, RScannell as10/12 and O'Loughlin as a 13/14.
This squad is a chance to look at player utility, so no point in playing Byrne or Sweetnam who deserve to get their chance in the starting test side in the Autumn in their familiar positions.

One thing about this squad is they might be lacking caps and experience but they're more comfortable playing with ball in hand than the past generation of players were. I wonder is it also a sign of Schmidt maybe thinking of loosening the leash a bit in terms of playing style?

profitius wrote:One thing about this squad is they might be lacking caps and experience but they're more comfortable playing with ball in hand than the past generation of players were. I wonder is it also a sign of Schmidt maybe thinking of loosening the leash a bit in terms of playing style?

Or he's going to try and indoctrinate them nice and early.

Joe Schmidt: "Repeat after me kids: We. Do. Not. Offload. Understood?"

Cue Guns in 3...2...1...

Well we are going to have an over abundance of ruck resourcers come the autumn.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Lets be honest 4 players from Ulster is a pathetic contribution

What's up with Trimble?

In line with how Joe usually does things he will be using this tour to introduce a certain amount of new players alongside more established ones.

Clearly Stockdale and O'Loughlin have made it at Byrne and Sweetnams expense. I'd guess if Zebo gets called up to the Lions Sweetnam will come in.

Joe knows what Gilroy can do but clearly there are some things he's not overly impressed with, so looks to be someway down the pecking order.

Can't think who else from Ulster deserves a call up. Individually a lot of folks have had fairly poor seasons bar Stockdale and Treadwell.

Not buying the love some have for Reidy, Henry looked a lot more impressive at the end of the season but Joe knows what he can offer and he is getting on a bit now.

McCloskey has been a big disappointment.

rodders wrote:
Not buying the love some have for Reidy, Henry looked a lot more impressive at the end of the season but Joe knows what he can offer and he is getting on a bit now.

In agreement with you on this, he's a good ball carrier and dynamic with it but almost needs someone like Henry on the field with him guiding him or carrying some of the workload when it comes to the breakdown it seems but then again so do most of our backrows

Reidy isn't a fantastic jackal, but he is an excellent support player who will clear rucks well, offer himself as a link man and make a lot of ground in the carry. Also, very handy cover tackler and usually tops the statistics in that regard. He has genuinely saved our asses on more than a few games I have noticed with a last ditch tackle.

He's isn't a top tier player by any means but he's a real workhorse. I think van der Flier does the same thing but better (and he's younger). The selection I don't really understand is TOD, who has been poor most of the season. Plus, annoyingly it makes me think Leavy is being converted into a 6. Although, I guess he would be a 6 very similar to O'Mahony.

Reidy when he gets over the ball is very good but I think he lacks the confidence with it, watching him against Ospreys a few weeks back and he was the first man to quite a few tackles and was moving in to get over the ball then seemed to hesitate. That could also be a coaching issue and next season we may see him do that job better

marty2086 wrote:Reidy when he gets over the ball is very good but I think he lacks the confidence with it, watching him against Ospreys a few weeks back and he was the first man to quite a few tackles and was moving in to get over the ball then seemed to hesitate. That could also be a coaching issue and next season we may see him do that job better

Maybe he realises that he is needed more in the defence line, making him hesitant to get pulled in the ruck?

Could be right but when Henrys in the team he seems more willing to get stuck in and the two of them almost alternate like a poor mans Pooper

As I said on the Ulster thread, I think Reidy deserves a spot ahead of TOD. But no major complaint.

His absence means no projects in this team squad - when was the last chem that happened?

Reidy isn't a project, he's a proper Irishman

The last time Ireland had a squad without any residency qualified players was the 2014 6Ns, well the initial squad anyway since Strauss was later called up

Trimble not going as he is resting his hand - not worth the risk.
Fact is Reidy has out performed TOD and JOD this year and is unlucky.

Not fair comparing him directly with Henry - Henry is a 7 Reidy is more a backrow all rounder - primary 8.
Of course he has looked more effective with a specialist 7 alongside, any 6 or 8 would.
That doesn't mean Henry has out performed Reidy this year - he hasn't


As Marty said he is not a project !

I guess with JOD the natural qualities are there for him to be the successor to Heaslip and age is on his side. It hasn't been a stellar year for him, but there have been glimpses of what he can do. I think he needs another summer to bulk up before he reaches optimal size to play at the back of the scrum. According to the Munster preseason videos, he bulked up 7 kilos last summer. Needs to add a bit more to match the ball carrying prowess of Stander and Conan.

Reidy has absolutely been better than TOD though. They are both pretty similar 7s in terms of playing style. I don't see Reidy as an 8.

rodders wrote:Clearly Stockdale and O'Loughlin have made it at Byrne and Sweetnams expense. I'd guess if Zebo gets called up to the Lions Sweetnam will come in.

Joe knows what Gilroy can do but clearly there are some things he's not overly impressed with, so looks to be someway down the pecking order.

Not clear at all to me Rodders. Stockdale and O'Loughlin offer something that Byrne and Sweetnam don't - utility. Both can play centre or back three and if a player demonstrates that flexibility then they will be in contention for the RWC. This squad is packed with utility players so it looks like Joe is trying out some of the candidates for utility forward and utility back.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Clearly Stockdale and O'Loughlin have made it at Byrne and Sweetnams expense. I'd guess if Zebo gets called up to the Lions Sweetnam will come in.

Joe knows what Gilroy can do but clearly there are some things he's not overly impressed with, so looks to be someway down the pecking order.

Not clear at all to me Rodders. Stockdale and O'Loughlin offer something that Byrne and Sweetnam don't - utility. Both can play centre or back three and if a player demonstrates that flexibility then they will be in contention for the RWC. This squad is packed with utility players so it looks like Joe is trying out some of the candidates for utility forward and utility back.

They also offer defending, which, on Friday's showing, is not something you get with Byrne, even when he's playing a team of fourteen.

Quinn Roux added to squad - Dillane mustn't be fit and Roux is the next most experienced.

Don Alfonso wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Clearly Stockdale and O'Loughlin have made it at Byrne and Sweetnams expense. I'd guess if Zebo gets called up to the Lions Sweetnam will come in.

Joe knows what Gilroy can do but clearly there are some things he's not overly impressed with, so looks to be someway down the pecking order.

Not clear at all to me Rodders. Stockdale and O'Loughlin offer something that Byrne and Sweetnam don't - utility. Both can play centre or back three and if a player demonstrates that flexibility then they will be in contention for the RWC. This squad is packed with utility players so it looks like Joe is trying out some of the candidates for utility forward and utility back.

They also offer defending, which, on Friday's showing, is not something you get with Byrne, even when he's playing a team of fourteen.

Must not have done his Lions chances much good.

His defending was pretty abysmal. It would be a real shame if he couldn't address that. However, Stockdale's defending isn't great either from what I have seen. He hasn't had enough starts to really evaluate, but I think it will be exposed when he does begin to start more games next season.

Stockdale looked pretty poor defending from fullback at Thomond. To be honest had a mare all round that game. But haven't seen him get caught like Byrne did over the weekend when playing wing/13 and his physicality is something I think could be more useful to Ireland long term then Byrne's pace

He did but he has played well on the wing.
He has hardly played at 13 either.

Inspite of all the noise about him playing elsewhere I'd give him a full season on the wing to really learn his trade and then reassess next summer.
Don't mess him about playing him here there and everywhere.

Byrne looks to be just as physical with ball in hand as Stockdale, if not more so. There have been times where Byrne looked almost North-like, although we haven't seen as much of that in the latter parts of the season. Either way, both could be the starting wings for Ireland in the future if they are properly coached. Both have clear defensive weaknesses. Then again, so does North, Savea, Watson...

geoff999rugby wrote:He did but he has played well on the wing.
He has hardly played at 13 either.

Inspite of all the noise about him playing elsewhere I'd give him a full season on the wing to really learn his trade and then reassess next summer.
Don't mess him about playing him here there and everywhere.

To be honest, although he could run some excellent lines at 13, I think that a 13 needs to be very clever in their reading of the game, particularly defensively, and then have the authority to boss the defensive line. Hence why Cave and Payne are the only real 13s at Ulster (with Ludik at a push). Stockdale can still utilise those line breaking skills in a Bowe-esque manner from the wing.

geoff999rugby wrote:He did but he has played well on the wing.
He has hardly played at 13 either.

Inspite of all the noise about him playing elsewhere I'd give him a full season on the wing to really learn his trade and then reassess next summer.
Don't mess him about playing him here there and everywhere.

This. He is a very good talent with loads of potential but needs to learn/settle in one position before looking to move him around. Chopping and changing his position will do little for his confidence.

Needless to say I agree completely with Rory and Eirebilly

Kiss are you listening

At the same time though, it helps to have the "utility" tag next to your name when getting selected for a RWC squad for example. Most players in the back three nowadays can interchange between wing and fullback. So perhaps having a main position for 75% or more of the games and then some games at 15 would be useful.

I think this would do Sweetnam a lot of good for example, who I think could be best at fullback.

Listening to Newstalk last night. Apparently Heaslip's injury was quite serious and required immediate surgery. He described it as potentially career ending though admitted he is now on track for a full recovery. He didnt want to say exactly what it was. He said that he wouldn't be able to go on the Lions tour even if he was lucky enough to be picked.

Hopefully he gets back to his best.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Listening to Newstalk last night. Apparently Heaslip's injury was quite serious and required immediate surgery. He described it as potentially career ending though admitted he is now on track for a full recovery. He didnt want to say exactly what it was. He said that he wouldn't be able to go on the Lions tour even if he was lucky enough to be picked.

Hopefully he gets back to his best.

Heres hoping but if not it may make the IRFUs decision to give him a three year deal, ill thought out

Any one on a central contract can get a career ending injury. I assume in that case they retire and the contract is ended. Why would you describe it as "ill thought out"

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Any one on a central contract can get a career ending injury. I assume in that case they retire and the contract is ended. Why would you describe it as "ill thought out"

Because the older you get the greater the risk as the IRFU pretty much said to Donnacha Ryan who is younger than Heaslip

marty2086 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Any one on a central contract can get a career ending injury. I assume in that case they retire and the contract is ended. Why would you describe it as "ill thought out"

Because the older you get the greater the risk as the IRFU pretty much said to Donnacha Ryan who is younger than Heaslip

Heaslip had never had a serious injury in his 10 year 100 test cap career though.

Ryan had injuries which had sidelined him for longer periods. In '14 he missed the whole season for example (18 months). In '13 he missed 10 weeks.

Im not seeing the comparison?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Any one on a central contract can get a career ending injury. I assume in that case they retire and the contract is ended. Why would you describe it as "ill thought out"

Because the older you get the greater the risk as the IRFU pretty much said to Donnacha Ryan who is younger than Heaslip

Heaslip had never had a serious injury in his 10 year 100 test cap career though.

Ryan had injuries which had sidelined him for longer periods. In '14 he missed the whole season for example (18 months). In '13 he missed 10 weeks.

Im not seeing the comparison?

The problem with Ryan wasn't his injuries but his age, a player the same age was given an exception. I'm merely highlighting that the discrepancy in the policy will seem ill thought out

It is pretty simple logic. Not only does your likelihood to receive an injury increase after you hit 30, but also your ability to recover from them.

marty2086 wrote:

The problem with Ryan wasn't his injuries but his age, a player the same age was given an exception. I'm merely highlighting that the discrepancy in the policy will seem ill thought out

I think the IRFU judge each player on their own merits. In their estimation Heaslip deserved a central contract more than Ryan. All entities tend to reward employees who have consistently been key players over a long period of time along with a range of other criteria. Heaslip fit into that category. Dont see the issue.

I think you are comparing apples with oranges.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is pretty simple logic. Not only does your likelihood to receive an injury increase after you hit 30, but also your ability to recover from them.

So what are you saying no one in their 30s should be on a central contract?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is pretty simple logic. Not only does your likelihood to receive an injury increase after you hit 30, but also your ability to recover from them.

So what are you saying no one in their 30s should be on a central contract?

No one is saying that but a 3 year deal is a huge risk, yes there is insurance and that but the potential drop off in performance due to inability to recover sufficiently is an huge risk. Ulster did the same with Roger Wilson and he got injured less than a year in and his back hampered him for two years because he could not recover properly.

I thought that Ryan deserved a central contract due to his recent form but hey ho. The fact that Heaslip got a central contract did not bother me in the slightest, he also was not out of form and his dedication to Ireland has been rewarded.

He had just been nominated as world player of the year at the time he was offered the contract. I think most organisations would offer a deal to someone considered one of the best in the world.

Also when he was offered the contract Heaslip probably had one of the best records in world rugby for being injury free. He is uber professional with his conditioning by all accounts.

Apparently he also has all the top of the range video equipment that the IRFU use installed in his apartment for reviewing opponents and always goes above and beyond in his prep work.

Yes it is riskier for older players but a guy with 100 caps, two lions tours and world players of the year nominations at every level of the game probably deserves it.

Thats not to say that Ryan didnt deserve an extension but I dont think you can compare the two cases.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It is pretty simple logic. Not only does your likelihood to receive an injury increase after you hit 30, but also your ability to recover from them.

So what are you saying no one in their 30s should be on a central contract?

No. That isn't what I said at all. A three year deal for a 33 year old may be a little silly though, particularly if it is for a player who is in a position with tremendous competition. For comparison's sake, that was the excuse used for another player who is in a position with a far greater need for players of his ilk. One year would have sufficed to be honest.

I'm not disputing Heaslip is deserving of a contract but 3 years is a big and risky commitment for his age, Heaslip and fair play to him knows how to play the IRFU to his benefit

marty2086 wrote:I'm not disputing Heaslip is deserving of a contract but 3 years is a big and risky commitment for his age, Heaslip and fair play to him knows how to play the IRFU to his benefit

Its a bit cynical to suggest that he is playing the IFRU but yes he has got a good deal for himself but the guy has been a fairly exemplary employee of the IRFU over the years.

His contract ends a few months after the next RWC. Has anyone been offered a contract extension that ended before the RWC? Im sure part of the logic behind central contracts is to ensure your best players are in Ireland all the way up to rugby world cups.

Donners should have hired BOD as is agent...

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I'm not disputing Heaslip is deserving of a contract but 3 years is a big and risky commitment for his age, Heaslip and fair play to him knows how to play the IRFU to his benefit

Its a bit cynical to suggest that he is playing the IFRU but yes he has got a good deal for himself but the guy has been a fairly exemplary employee of the IRFU over the years.

His contract ends a few months after the next RWC. Has anyone been offered a contract extension that ended before the RWC? Im sure part of the logic behind central contracts is to ensure your best players are in Ireland all the way up to rugby world cups.

Rory Bests deal runs out next summer a year short

Every contract cycle Heaslip and SOB are seemingly France bound then get a nice pay bump from the IRFU who are so afraid of losing them they bend over backwards to do it. They and their agents know how to get the best deal and have the IRFUs number there.

If Heaslip was to see a drop in performance is there pressure to pick him to get their money's worth? Does he get dropped?

I commented when the announcement was made that it seemed a bit too long and if it is to keep him in place until 2019 there were better ways of doing it and seemed to come from a position of weakness by the IRFU

Fair enough though I think Best is older though isnt he? Id say he probably will still make it to the RWC.

Im sure a lot of these players do actually get offers from French clubs all the time. Ryan got an offer and took it for example. There have been lots of examples other than Heaslip.

Heaslip is like John Terry at Chelsea.

Will he insist on a standing ovation after 8 minutes during his final international?

Hes about a year older but like Heaslip has done pretty well regarding injury since he has surgery on a disc problem about 8 years ago only missing games for Ireland because of his broken arm and illness

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I'm not disputing Heaslip is deserving of a contract but 3 years is a big and risky commitment for his age, Heaslip and fair play to him knows how to play the IRFU to his benefit

Its a bit cynical to suggest that he is playing the IFRU but yes he has got a good deal for himself but the guy has been a fairly exemplary employee of the IRFU over the years.

His contract ends a few months after the next RWC. Has anyone been offered a contract extension that ended before the RWC? Im sure part of the logic behind central contracts is to ensure your best players are in Ireland all the way up to rugby world cups.

He has been the best payed rugby player in Ireland over the last 6 or 8 years. Remember, Jonathan Sexton was pissed off because he wasn't the highest earning player because Heaslip was. Heaslip was getting paid more than the likes of ROG & Paul O'Connell who were backboning Munster and Ireland for the best part of 15 years.

The IRFU really screwed up with Donnacha Ryan. Too bloody smart for their own good. They thought he would never leave Munster. Shane Horgan said a couple of years ago that the IRFU took advantage of the Munster players in particular because they knew they would never leave.