Ireland Summer tour.

First topic message reminder :

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nope, I've been extremely critical of Ulster and the form of our players for the past year. Silly response. But it is still my opinion that Olding shown more at 12 from an attacking sense than Henshaw ever has, both for club and country. Henshaw is Jamie Roberts-lite at 12, solid at best. He caught a ball against England and scored, and has been overrated ever since. What else has he done? Carried into traffic. Made his tackles. Good boy, but he struggles against an actual Jamie Roberts-esque player and is extremely predictable. Olding, for example, adds a bit of variety, which he has shown.

No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is, as it seems to change on a weekly basis with players out of position. Horses for courses I guess, with one of Marshall, Olding or McCloskey at 12 and one of Payne or Cave at 13.

Sorry Rory but I'm not familiar with your back catalogue of comments, I'll play what you put out in front of me! You said that Olding and McCloskey are better options than Henshaw, which has been demonstrably untrue. As geoff says, they have barely been tested at international level, they need to stay fit and consistent before anyone should take them seriously as a challenge to Henshaw. Admit it, there is some element of home-whistling

Also what else has he done since scoring against England? He won the league with Connacht, was in the team that won in SA, was in the team that beat NZ and Australia in autumn, and team that beat England in six nations.

You also seem to be blaming Henshaw for what can be the often mechanical nature of Schmidts attack, his skillset isn't just bosh like Jamie Roberts is.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose

Now Farrell is a player I'd be excited to see, but isn't he primarily 13? I'm sure that is where Munster will look at him alongside Scannell.

All 3 are still fairly young and still plenty to learn, Scannell is probably further behind in his as Olding and Henshaw debuted as teenagers. Wasn't Scannell out with a serious injury when he was younger?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

You don't remember the decline of D'Arcy alongside BOD? He was brilliant in his pomp (and a good writer to boot nowadays), but he was well past his best when he finally stepped aside for Ireland.

Just because both players are from Ulster doesn't mean I'm trying to shoehorn an Ulster player in for the sake of it. These are my genuine thoughts. I said that McCloskey does the Henshaw thing better than Henshaw (a battering ram that can offload). Actually, that is demonstrably true, unless you do the bizarre exercise that some engage in by totally dismissing provincial form in these arguments. Olding put in just as composed a performance against SA as Henshaw has delivered for Ireland but also offered an extra attacking platform. Again, club form is relevant to show that this is demonstrably true. Olding offers a heck of a lot more. Converted 10s usually do. So no, I reject your claims that I am simply "home-whistling".

Ah. See above. "Part of a winning team". That doesn't automatically make him the best option. Similar to the 2013 Lions tour discussion that Davies was absolutely the correct call over BOD because they won the game. Is it that simple? No. I believe that our attack is weak with an out of position player who lacks a playmaking game.

As for the Roberts comparison, it is all well and good to suggest that Henshaw has more strings to his bow and that it is just Schmidt's fault. I do partly agree with the Schmidt part, but Roberts also did possess a passing and offloading game at times (Lions 2009 with BOD). Both are used to fulfil one role, one which Roberts did much better. So does McCloskey. Henshaw is wasted here.

Marshes wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

You don't remember the decline of D'Arcy alongside BOD? He was brilliant in his pomp (and a good writer to boot nowadays), but he was well past his best when he finally stepped aside for Ireland.

Yes, I remember. Both could still produce magic from time to time. The mind still worked even if the body didn't. Guess which Henshaw lacks?

marty2086 wrote:All 3 are still fairly young and still plenty to learn, Scannell is probably further behind in his as Olding and Henshaw debuted as teenagers. Wasn't Scannell out with a serious injury when he was younger?

In terms of caps not much of a difference, Scannell has 3, Olding has 4, Henshaw has 29. Luke Marshall is probably the nearest with 11.

Not sure if Scannell has been injured young, he has been playing pretty consistently since 15/16 i think...

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose

Now Farrell is a player I'd be excited to see, but isn't he primarily 13? I'm sure that is where Munster will look at him alongside Scannell.

No Farrell played most of his rugby at 12 for Ulster and to be honest he was poor.

He is being grossly overhyped as is Hart.

An Irish player plays abroad and with very little evidence is described as the second coming

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

That is just bad selection.

Henshaw is much better suited at 13 than 12

Playing him there is as stupid as,..let me think.., playing Marshall at 13.
Schmidt taught Kiss all he knows  

Comes back to what I said originally - no one has stood up and grabbed the 12 shirt and that is why Henshaw is there

To be fair, Farrell has been playing at 13 for Grenoble for a number of years now, so he is probably equally proficient at both. I haven't seen much of him, but when they played Connacht last year he looked very dangerous and certainly outplayed Henshaw (both at 13). No hyperbole there.

To answer the above comment, Henshaw was moved to 12 because everyone was injured. There really was no other option. Now there are options. Henshaw doesn't need to remain at 12 anymore. Maybe for Leinster, I guess.

Marshes wrote:

marty2086 wrote:All 3 are still fairly young and still plenty to learn, Scannell is probably further behind in his as Olding and Henshaw debuted as teenagers. Wasn't Scannell out with a serious injury when he was younger?

In terms of caps not much of a difference, Scannell has 3, Olding has 4, Henshaw has 29. Luke Marshall is probably the nearest with 11.

Not sure if Scannell has been injured young, he has been playing pretty consistently since 15/16 i think...

Caps can be misleading, Olding has been in camp plenty and the same with Marshall. Scannell I think only got called up during the 6Ns

The others have been senior players for their provinces for about 5 years

Team around them makes all the difference.

I have yet to see anything to suggest he is any better than the players being discussed here

marty2086 wrote:
The others have been senior players for their provinces for about 5 years

Marshall 26 - squad regular 5 years
Olding 24 - squad regular 4 years
McCloskey 24 - squad regular 3 years

It's been insinuated that some of us don't consider provincial form relevant to international - well on my part that's definitely untrue. However I don't think Pro12 form generally counts for much unless you're also producing at Champions Cup level - which is the next best thing to internationals.

As I say Olding has shown glimpses of what he can do against weaker opposition but I can't remember any big performances at European level - I'm happy to be shown otherwise.

For example, I thought Henshaw was excellent in the away tie vs Castres in January and also the QF vs Wasps. He puts in a lot of strong performances for someone apparently so overrated.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just because both players are from Ulster doesn't mean I'm trying to shoehorn an Ulster player in for the sake of it. These are my genuine thoughts. I said that McCloskey does the Henshaw thing better than Henshaw (a battering ram that can offload). Actually, that is demonstrably true, unless you do the bizarre exercise that some engage in by totally dismissing provincial form in these arguments. Olding put in just as composed a performance against SA as Henshaw has delivered for Ireland but also offered an extra attacking platform. Again, club form is relevant to show that this is demonstrably true. Olding offers a heck of a lot more. Converted 10s usually do. So no, I reject your claims that I am simply "home-whistling".

Ah. See above. "Part of a winning team". That doesn't automatically make him the best option. Similar to the 2013 Lions tour discussion that Davies was absolutely the correct call over BOD because they won the game. Is it that simple? No. I believe that our attack is weak with an out of position player who lacks a playmaking game.

As for the Roberts comparison, it is all well and good to suggest that Henshaw has more strings to his bow and that it is just Schmidt's fault. I do partly agree with the Schmidt part, but Roberts also did possess a passing and offloading game at times (Lions 2009 with BOD). Both are used to fulfil one role, one which Roberts did much better. So does McCloskey. Henshaw is wasted here.

McCloskeys provincial form lat year was very poor, as geoff says he has played himself out of first choice. The year before he started alongside Henshaw in one of our better midfield combos, but yeah I can easily say that Henshaw has been a better option at what he does this year. If McCloskey can put the kind of consistency together than Henshaw does he might be back in contention in green one day. Olding put in about the same performances as Henshaw, looking at the match ratings Henshaw was higher, I don't remember Olding pulling rabbits out of hats. I don't blame him, he was solid in the two defeats and is still finding his feet in test rugby. Would love to see him develop and make the step up consistently, but has a ways to go.

Look at Henshaw's performances in those part of a big winning teams, you can't pretend he was a bystander. South Africa away, NZ Chicago, England 2014, France RWC 2015, England 2017. Big contributions in all of them, he is generally very active in our big wins.

As I say, I agree he is better served at 13 which plays to his strengths, but even at 12 we have been a better team with him and his absence is notable. If any of the Ulster players or Scannell get to his level of consistency or delivery then they should be given a shout. None of them are currently at the required level, hopefully that changes this year.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

You don't remember the decline of D'Arcy alongside BOD? He was brilliant in his pomp (and a good writer to boot nowadays), but he was well past his best when he finally stepped aside for Ireland.

Yes, I remember. Both could still produce magic from time to time. The mind still worked even if the body didn't. Guess which Henshaw lacks?

c) An Ulster jersey?

When was the last time you remember D'Arcy producing magic, anything this decade? Not having a go, brilliant player on his day but they were few and far between after 2009

geoff999rugby wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose

Now Farrell is a player I'd be excited to see, but isn't he primarily 13? I'm sure that is where Munster will look at him alongside Scannell.

No Farrell played most of his rugby at 12 for Ulster and to be honest he was poor.

He is being grossly overhyped as is Hart.

An Irish player plays abroad and with very little evidence is described as the second coming

Apart from taking the great Robbie Henshaw to the cleaners a couple of seasons ago when Connacht played Grenoble.

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose

Now Farrell is a player I'd be excited to see, but isn't he primarily 13? I'm sure that is where Munster will look at him alongside Scannell.

No Farrell played most of his rugby at 12 for Ulster and to be honest he was poor.

He is being grossly overhyped as is Hart.

An Irish player plays abroad and with very little evidence is described as the second coming

Apart from taking the great Robbie Henshaw to the cleaners a couple of seasons ago when Connacht played Grenoble.

So you'll discount Henshaw's marquee performances over NZ, France, England, South Africa over a challenge cup match game. No wonder you have so a low bar of expectation for the Ulster centres

Exactly one swallow does not make a summer.
To claim Farrell is better than Henshaw based on one game is bizarre

Some overhyping of Ulster centres past and present going on here
and you know who I support

Marshes wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

You don't remember the decline of D'Arcy alongside BOD? He was brilliant in his pomp (and a good writer to boot nowadays), but he was well past his best when he finally stepped aside for Ireland.

Yes, I remember. Both could still produce magic from time to time. The mind still worked even if the body didn't. Guess which Henshaw lacks?

c) An Ulster jersey?

Sigh. How boring. Moving on.

Chris Farrell made the top 14 team of the season despite playing with a team that got relegated. I'm sure he isn't the finished product yet but he is approaching 17st, fast and can link up with others.


As for the 12s. There are a lot of players who have yet to reach their peak so lets see how it goes in the next 2 or 3 years. I'm hoping Olding and Hanrahan will come good. Both are still young so have time on their side. 3 players to watch are all in the Leinster academy and all O'Briens. Conor, Jimmy and Tommy.

profitius wrote:Chris Farrell made the top 14 team of the season despite playing with a team that got relegated. I'm sure he isn't the finished product yet but he is approaching 17st, fast and can link up with others.


As for the 12s. There are a lot of players who have yet to reach their peak so lets see how it goes in the next 2 or 3 years. I'm hoping Olding and Hanrahan will come good. Both are still young so have time on their side. 3 players to watch are all in the Leinster academy and all O'Briens. Conor, Jimmy and Tommy.

Really excited to see Farrell back, I think he could be a fantastic option from what I've seen. Will be interesting to see how Munster prioritise their centres next year, no more than Ulster they are fairly stacked in that department between Scannell, Taute, Farrell, Hanrahan, Arnold, Earls occasionally and a few of the kids whose names escape me right now.

Maybe some of the overspill will head west, Connacht are looking light on quality.

Marshes wrote:
So you'll discount Henshaw's marquee performances over NZ, France, England, South Africa over a challenge cup match game. No wonder you have so a low bar of expectation for the Ulster centres  

I don't discount anything, I just think the substance doesn't warrant the hype. The IRFU and their sponsors have invested heavily in brand Henshaw as one of their shirt sellers so have to back their horse but he's a decent player no more as the Lions has shown.

He's still young and improving, I'm sure he will have many more "marquee" games for Leintser and Ireland but he's no new Gordon D'arcy, any more than Ringrose is the new O'Driscoll, we really are brainwashed with nonsense over here with regards the quality of our players.

In terms of Ulster centres, I believe Olding and McCloskey have much more potential but for various reasons haven't lived up to their initial promise - Olding because of physical reasons, McCloskey however seems to not have the right attitude to kick on. The rest are pro12 standard (not including Payne).

Marshall is a good player but if he hasn't knocked those intercept passes out of his system by now he never will, i can't see Joe ever fully trusting him.

We do tend to overhype our players, but I don't think that is the point. We don't need another Brian O'Driscoll, although of course it would help. Ringrose, for example, has shown that he has buckets of pace and can scythe through defences. He has good awareness of those around him and he is very clever in defence considering his inexperience at the top level and lack of physicality. What more could we want at 13? I'm happy to have him as an option, and hope to see more challenge for his shirt. I'd be equally happy to see Henshaw at 13, and if one does wish to investigate, they will notice that most of his most effective breaks and clever offloading has been done in the wider channels.

The reality is that we don't need a backline of world class players, we just need the right balance. The progression of the Schmidt backline, in my mind, has been a focus on the kick-chase, wingers who can recycle ball and are solid defensively, and a midfield which can truck the ball up. There is no real need for guile in the midfield for this sort of game. We effectively had two 15s at 12 and 13, for example. I'm not denying, or complaining, that this hasn't won us a lot of games in the past. I'm saying that it is no longer going to cut it. The back three we used for this sort of game are past it. We can't solely rely on the kick chase and our next batch of players seem to want to run with the ball more. These are things that Schmidt needs to address.

We can still utilise the kick chase, have players able to truck it up in the midfield and recycle the ball efficiently. We just need to add to it and utilise pace in the outer channels, which we finally have available to us if Schmidt is willing to select such players. The 9-10-12 axis needs a bit of tweaking, and we can stop moving players out of position to accommodate for lack of depth. The depth is there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We do tend to overhype our players, but I don't think that is the point.

I think it is the point. A back line of our best current attacking players, Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls or whoever is still at present far less potent than all the other NH back lines, let alone the SH ones.

Therefore to believe that a more expansive and high risk approach against the other tier 1 sides would be beneficial, when we have arguably the best forward pack and world class half backs doesn't make any logical sense.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:We do tend to overhype our players, but I don't think that is the point.

I think it is the point. A back line of our best current attacking players, Henshaw, Ringrose, Zebo, Earls or whoever is still at present far less potent than all the other NH back lines, let alone the SH ones.

Therefore to believe that a more expansive and high risk approach against the other tier 1 sides would be beneficial, when we have arguably the best forward pack and world class half backs doesn't make any logical sense.

I don't agree with that. I do think that we are very blunt in attack compared to other teams. But, taking Earls for example, he is obviously a powerful runner who can make a lot of clean breaks and score tries, as long as there is actually some space created for him. Again, he isn't a world beater, but he doesn't need to be. We just need to play smart.

Expansive doesn't translate to "high risk". Nor does it require world class players to pull off. Argentina play with a lot of width and most posters on here couldn't even name a lot of their backs. For goodness sake, Italy have tore teams open by creating overlaps. Japan did it against us on this tour.

A great example of this is the Saracens, actually. They built upon their great forward dominance and halfback pairing. They don't have a world class backline, but they carry out the basics well and create space for their back three. It isn't complicated. It isn't high risk.

Why can't we do the same?

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:
So you'll discount Henshaw's marquee performances over NZ, France, England, South Africa over a challenge cup match game. No wonder you have so a low bar of expectation for the Ulster centres  

I don't discount anything, I just think the substance doesn't warrant the hype. The IRFU and their sponsors have invested heavily in brand Henshaw as one of their shirt sellers so have to back their horse but he's a decent player no more as the Lions has shown.

He's still young and improving, I'm sure he will have many more "marquee" games for Leintser and Ireland but he's no new Gordon D'arcy, any more than Ringrose is the new O'Driscoll, we really are brainwashed with nonsense over here with regards the quality of our players.

In terms of Ulster centres, I believe Olding and McCloskey have much more potential but for various reasons haven't lived up to their initial promise - Olding because of physical reasons, McCloskey however seems to not have the right attitude to kick on. The rest are pro12 standard (not including Payne).

Marshall is a good player but if he hasn't knocked those intercept passes out of his system by now he never will, i can't see Joe ever fully trusting him.

Like I say the Lions performances are not the full indicator of quality, it's a cobbled together team with little familiarity, some world class players are not showing their best there. For me might be a bit defunct in the modern age.

I agree he is still young and improving, but where he is now at 24 is perfectly serviceable and his performances belie his years, it would be great if Olding or Marshall could kick on and then we have the option of "horses for courses" at 12 and at 13. It is sad to see McCloskey go backwards as he looked to the manor born.

You say Henshaw is not the new D'Arcy, I don't think that is an insult, we can't find replica players, we can only play to the strengths of the ones we have. What you seem to be looking for is the new BOD, and while there is nothing wrong with aiming high, we have to be realistic. Ringrose and Henshaw are different types of players. For a while the cupboard looked really bare before BOD and D'Arcy retired, but now we have at least five test class centres.

As I said to Rory, much of your problem with Henshaw seems to be how he is used as a battering ram, rather than the skill set itself. But he doesn't rush on to a flat pass into the line crashball-style because it is his nature to do so, it is because he is told to do so. And if we know anything about Schimdt it is that he prefers players who execute his gameplan well, even if it is at the expense of their own.

Marshes wrote: As I said to Rory, much of your problem with Henshaw seems to be how he is used as a battering ram, rather than the skill set itself. But he doesn't rush on to a flat pass into the line crashball-style because it is his nature to do so, it is because he is told to do so. And if we know anything about Schimdt it is that he prefers players who execute his gameplan well, even if it is at the expense of their own.

Exactly the problem is where he is played and how he is played not the skills of the player.

Poor coaching can make good players look poor - look at Ulster only about 10 people you could justify as professional rugby players based on last year.
Bad coaching can destroy a team (Ulster) or under sell players short through stale and predictable game plans (Ireland (most of the time))

I actually rate Henshaw highly, just not as a 12. What I said above about him not having brains was slightly tongue in cheek, but also to make the point that he doesn't have to brains to play further infield. Not everyone can do the playmaking thing. So I agree with the above. It would also be much healthier for both Leinster and Ireland to have Henshaw and Ringrose fighting for the same position. With O'Loughlin posing a threat to their position as well. No need to move anyone out of position anymore.

I would love to see henshaw move back the 15. Spend from now through Christmas learning from karney and Payne then unleash him in the 6ns at 15.

carpet baboon wrote:I would love to see henshaw move back the 15.  Spend from now through Christmas learning from karney and Payne then unleash him in the 6ns at 15.

When he made his breakout for Connacht he was fantastic at 15, and with Kearney due to finish up he could challenge Carberry there. But I think the powers that be see him long-term 12-13.

What I want in November is Tiernan O Halloran given a chance to show what he can do from 15. I don't think people would question his attack and quile, but need to see if he has test level defence. I think he may fall a bit short in that area.

So do I and more importantly so does Joe.
Joe doesn't trust him defensively.

Payne could well start at 15 and to take it back to the above we may just see more of Olding at 15 at Ulster this year.
He has the skills and brain for it

geoff999rugby wrote:So do I and more importantly so does Joe.
Joe doesn't trust him defensively.

Payne could well start at 15 and to take it back to the above we may just see more of Olding at 15 at Ulster this year.
He has the skills and brain for it

I think Simon Zebo is first in the 15 queue for Ireland after Kearney. The stuff that is going on in the background for Olding will not help his case either (friom the point of view its dragging on and must be a big distraction for him). I can't see Schmidt investing too much time in him with that going on.

geoff999rugby wrote:So do I and more importantly so does Joe.
Joe doesn't trust him defensively.

Payne could well start at 15 and to take it back to the above we may just see more of Olding at 15 at Ulster this year.
He has the skills and brain for it

Only one way to find out! Tough to know how he would work in a defensive system where everyone is doing their job (because that is certainly not how Connacht play), need to give him a chance. Although I'm sure Joe has seen plenty in training.

I think if Ulster are starting Payne 13 next season that says a bit about where he will be internationally. I'd prefer him at 15, and think both Zebo and Olding are good options there too. I remember Olding making a monster try-saving tackle against Cardiff a while back at 15.

I think what has happened with Payne is when he first became eligible Ulster needed him as a 15 and Ireland needed him as a 13.

The reverse is now true, I would not read too much in him being Ulsters first choice 13.
Ringrose deserves to stay and Kearney is struggling - misses a lot of games, even more than Payne !

I fear TOH card is probably already marked as far as Joe is concerned - Kearney, Payne, Zebo will all be picked before he is.

Yeah can't see Henshaw or Ringrose being moved based on form, hopefully Payne sees more time at 15, he is a bit hamstrung attacking from 13, and is so much more dangerous than Kearney. Both 31 though so Zebo probably the incumbent legacy plan at the minute.

With TOH I would say he has those ahead of him, but in terms of the wings we haven't got tremendous depth before he is getting close to the 23: TOH would probably be after Earls, Zebo, Trimble (33 in October), maybe Gilroy (was he injured for USA/Japan tour?). Although I suspect he could be leapfrogged by the likes of Stockdale, ROL, Conway if they continue doing what they are doing.