Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

My only knowledge of the tour was from the documentary so it is interesting to hear the story that goes behind it. Still, there are some iconic moments in the history of sport never mind rugby, with some great characters on tour and of course the immortal speeches of Telfer and McGeechan.

Still gets me every time when Doddie is told his tour is over

RDW_Scotland wrote:My only knowledge of the tour was from the documentary so it is interesting to hear the story that goes behind it.  Still, there are some iconic moments in the history of sport never mind rugby, with some great characters on tour and of course the immortal speeches of Telfer and McGeechan.

Still gets me every time when Doddie is told his tour is over

It was definitely the best Lions DVD (well, tape to be accurate!). Still got mine in the attic somewhere. I was not long into rugby at that point and that tour/behind the scenes stuff took my interest to another level. I was hooked!

RDW_Scotland wrote:With all the national bickering going on this is a fantastic reminder of how good the Lions concept can be

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40335537

... Well said... the only thing I can add to this is "Good Girl" ..

Interesting stats from the tour so far from Russ Petty on Twitter.



Focusing on minutes played there are probably a few players who could feel a little hard done by.

Not considering players who have been injured:

Cole
Tupiric
Laidlaw
Daly
Williams

Have had less gametime then a lot of their competition. Dan Cole has had a whole half less rugby than Sinckler!

Stand out there for me us the sheer amount of work per minute that Stander has put in.

Hogg has beaten more defenders than Williams, North, Seymour and Halfpenny despite only playing 99 minutes?!!

Our poor backs haven't had a chance in this tour.

Watson though, 9 defenders beaten. Take a bow!

Vunipola's tackle stats are always excellent - really underrated aspect of him.

He looks unfit but his workrate is really high.

Impressed by Faletau's tackle stats too - just shows how different a no 8 he is to B.Vunipola.

North's stats don't make for particulalry positive reading.

EST wrote:North's stats don't make for particulalry positive reading.

Yet we all know he will get selected based on past glories and the fact he gives Gatland and Family a Christmas card.

Some of that doesn't make for pretty reading.

Jones has been turned over 6 times, missed 4 tackles and conceded 5 penalties yet will probably start the first test.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Some of that doesn't make for pretty reading.

Jones has been turned over 6 times, missed 4 tackles and conceded 5 penalties yet will probably start the first test.

It's very hard to justify AWJ's involvement even from the bench, based on those stats - I personally would have Henderson as reserve, but you could also make a very compelling case for Lawes.

Henderson has done well and made an impact when called upon. deserves a bench spot based on his performances so far.

TightHEAD wrote:Henderson has done well and made an impact when called upon. deserves a bench spot based on his performances so far.

Are you touring around NZ for this tour?

Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Tends to play wider out and more likely to be up against backs .. whether you want that or not is another question

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

As it has with Owens, no? I think George makes sense to keep combos but Owens has played well.

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

Faletau is easily one of the best number 8s in the world. I think he only really has Read, Billy V and Picamoles as competition for that accolade.

He does everything very very well. He's probably not as powerful as Billy V, or as Physical as Picamoles.

However when he takes the ball at speed, he just seems to glide around players, seems to always break the gain line, has a phenomenal step and one of the softest set of hands you'll ever see in a back row forward.

He also seems to have a bottomless engine. His work rate is absolutely ridiculous.

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

Helps that George has been able to work with Kruis at lineout time. That's the advantage he's had over his rivals.

It's why I would be shocked if Gatland leaves either out of the starting line up.

Personally I would pick the starting pack which took on the Maoris but we'll see.

Where are you guys reading the stats? I'd be interesting in taking a look.

See my earlier post

mikey_dragon wrote:Where are you guys reading the stats? I'd be interesting in taking a look.

https://www.606v2.com/t65809p300-lions-2017-test-week#3587557

ESPN has some of them too. http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/team/_/id/32/british-and-irish-lions Just go to a game and player stats.

beshocked wrote:

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

Helps that George has been able to work with Kruis at lineout time. That's the advantage he's had over his rivals.

It's why I would be shocked if Gatland leaves either out of the starting line up.

Personally I would pick the starting pack which took on the Maoris but we'll see.

I cannot see him changing the starting pack. The only question I think is which lock is on the bench. Form indicates Lawes but I suspect it will be AWJ.

Ta.

Scottrf wrote:

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

As it has with Owens, no? I think George makes sense to keep combos but Owens has played well.

Yeah, I think Owens has toured well. I just think starting with George, and keeping the Sarries pod going, is a good decision. I would also say that George is probably the better scrummager, and it will be good for Vunipola to have that familiarity at scrum time.

Owens can add real dynamism in the lose when he comes on, and will complement Sinkler in that regard.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

EST wrote:

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Georges stats are a little worrying, 3 missed tackles and only 2 passes despite playing more than the other two hookers

Hasn't George also had more minutes playing the better teams?

The lioneout has operated like clockwork with him on the pitch - he is nailed on I think.

Faletau really is a Rolls-Royce of a player, very impressive stats.

Faletau is easily one of the best number 8s in the world. I think he only really has Read, Billy V and Picamoles as competition for that accolade.

He does everything very very well. He's probably not as powerful as Billy V, or as Physical as Picamoles.

However when he takes the ball at speed, he just seems to glide around players, seems to always break the gain line, has a phenomenal step and one of the softest set of hands you'll ever see in a back row forward.

He also seems to have a bottomless engine. His work rate is absolutely ridiculous.

Thats the best way to describe him, I think. In that Maori game, he seemed to catch every re-start and either shrugged off or stepped past Ioane every time, as he tried to put a big hit on him.

EST wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Some of that doesn't make for pretty reading.

Jones has been turned over 6 times, missed 4 tackles and conceded 5 penalties yet will probably start the first test.

It's very hard to justify AWJ's involvement even from the bench, based on those stats - I personally would have Henderson as reserve, but you could also make a very compelling case for Lawes.

Lawes has been the standout performer as a lock on this tour so far. His initial selection may have been an edge case but the form he showed after getting back in the England side has carried over. He really is back to being a force and would be unlucky to miss out on the 23, doubly so if AWJ is in.

Gooseberry wrote:

EST wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Some of that doesn't make for pretty reading.

Jones has been turned over 6 times, missed 4 tackles and conceded 5 penalties yet will probably start the first test.

It's very hard to justify AWJ's involvement even from the bench, based on those stats - I personally would have Henderson as reserve, but you could also make a very compelling case for Lawes.

Lawes has been the standout performer as a lock on this tour so far. His initial selection may have been an edge case but the form he showed after getting back in the England side has carried over. He really is back to being a force and would be unlucky to miss out on the 23, doubly so if AWJ is in.

Like I said, I don't think anybody could really complain if Lawes made the 23. He has really brought a directness and increased power under EJ - he has been a warrior this tour. However, I think the standout lock would have to go to Kruis.

I would stick with Henderson on the bench. He has carried and rucked really well, especially after the first wobbly game agaisnt the BaaBaas. I know Lawes can play at six, but I think Henderson offers a genuine ability to play at 6, and off the bench that versatility is good.

I would rather either over AWJ - however I would be astounded if he wasn't involved in the 23.

I'd go for Kruis and Itoje at lock especially if George starts at lock, the line out and scrum look a lot stronger with that unit together and then either Henderson or Lawes on the bench.

EST wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

EST wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Some of that doesn't make for pretty reading.

Jones has been turned over 6 times, missed 4 tackles and conceded 5 penalties yet will probably start the first test.

It's very hard to justify AWJ's involvement even from the bench, based on those stats - I personally would have Henderson as reserve, but you could also make a very compelling case for Lawes.

Lawes has been the standout performer as a lock on this tour so far. His initial selection may have been an edge case but the form he showed after getting back in the England side has carried over. He really is back to being a force and would be unlucky to miss out on the 23, doubly so if AWJ is in.

Like I said, I don't think anybody could really complain if Lawes made the 23.  He has really brought a directness and increased power under EJ - he has been a warrior this tour.  However, I think the standout lock would have to go to Kruis.  

I would stick with Henderson on the bench.  He has carried and rucked really well, especially after the first wobbly game agaisnt the BaaBaas.  I know Lawes can play at six, but I think Henderson offers a genuine ability to play at 6, and off the bench that versatility is good.

I would rather either over AWJ - however I would be astounded if he wasn't involved in the 23.

A simailr situation with Warburton who on stats is the worst performer of all the backrows and hasnt really been getting in the action enough (although the ones we have above dont account for work at the breakdown and lineouts). I dont think anyone would argue hes been in the best two or even three flankers on tour. Nor does he offer the versatility off the bench that someone like Stander would. Tipuric has been much better yet is hugely unlikley to get in the 23.
After Watson Williams has arguably been the second best outside back, yet probably will miss out on a wing spot to North and fullback to Halfpenny. Dalys versatility could even see Williams miss out on the 23 altogether.

With the pack some of the best loose players may well be missing, which given the style the All Blacks play is not a great thing. Some of the best attacking backs too are likely to be missing....again given its almost impossible to shut the All Blacks down and win on kicked points alone is not great.

Gatlands long been critisized by the Welsh fans for similar selections. I guess we will see how serious he was in the talk about being willing to drop his captain and look to play an open attacking game.

Of course hes still bound by the restrictions of having to select from players who arent as good as their counterparts, but it would be nice if he at least went for the guys who have done well and look on form.

As much as we all want to see the Lions beat the best AB team possible I wonder how many Lions fans would feel much sympathy for Kiwi fans if Beauden balls Barrett was to get a series ending injury in the first couple of minutes of the first test.

Not a very sporting thing to say I know.

Surely 4-8 has to be 4. Kruis 5. Itoje 6. Henderson 7. O'Brien 8. Faletau? 

We need Henderson for his dog and for his lineout work. 

For me, that would make the subs 19. Lawes 20. Tipuric/Warbuton

I honestly don't think that Samwise deserves a starting slot although he would add a lot to the team from the bench. 

Very strange not to write CJ Stander's name in this line up. I haven't watched all the games but I understand that he has been disappointing??

Pom dropping out completely george? With him Itoje and Kruis we could put nz s lineout under all sorts of pressure.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pom dropping out completely george? With him Itoje and Kruis we could put nz s lineout under all sorts of pressure.

I think that I actually meant to put POM at 6. 

All of those big paddies look the same to me. 

Oops. Racist. 

Bygones.

Only the Paddies from Munster look the same.

I thought it was odd! Still Kruis jones and Warburton will make big inroads I'm sure.

I was wondering the same George! Henderson at 6?!

I agree with that 5 though (POM at 6 obvs). I wouldn't consider Warburton for the bench though. I think Tipuric has done far more and provides a different option to SOB, so could change things up a bit. Warburton had a good 6N IMO, but has not performed well this tour. Bringing him on would weaken us, while brining Tipuric on would change is but not for the worse (if that makes sense).

If Henderson and Itoje were on the bench that would be quite some impact. Henderson has played a lot of rugby at 6 in the past as far as I know.

Don't all shoot me down,

But I have not been that impressed with Itoje on this tour

Maybe too high expectations?

R!skysports wrote:Don't all shoot me down,

But I have not been that impressed with Itoje on this tour

Maybe too high expectations?

He gives away a few penalties but is an incredible athlete and I thought he played well against the Maori and Crusaders.

Itoje is a decent player but probably hasn't shone as much as expected. I think part of that is because he plays for one of the biggest teams in international rugby and one of the biggest clubs in NH rugby and therefore has probably had it easier before than it can be when thrown into a team of players that aren't familiar with eachother.

All Black Test team to Play the British and Irish Lions at Eden Park on Saturday:

15. Ben Smith.
14. Israel Dagg.
13. Ryan Crotty.
12. Sonny Bill Williams.
11. Rieko Ioane.
10. Beauden Barrett.
9. Aaron Smith.
8. Kieren Read (C).
7. Sam Cane. 
6. Jerome Keino.
5. Sam Whitelock.
4. Brodie Rettalick.
3. Owen Franks.
2. Codie Taylor.
1. Joe Moody.

Reserves:
16. N. Harris.
17. W.Crockett.
18. Charlie F.
19 S. Barrett.
20. A.Savea.
21. T.J.Perenara.
22. A.Cruden / L.Sapoaga.
23. Anton. L. Brown.

aucklandlaurie wrote:All Black Test team to Play the British and Irish Lions at Eden Park on Saturday:

15. Ben Smith.
14. Israel Dagg.
13. Ryan Crotty.
12. Sonny Bill Williams.
11. Rieko Ioane.
10. Beauden Barrett.
9. Aaron Smith.
8. Kieren Read (C).
7. Sam Cane. 
6. Jerome Keino.
5. Sam Whitelock.
4. Brodie Rettalick.
3. Owen Franks.
2. Codie Taylor.
1. Joe Moody.

Reserves:
16. N. Harris.
17. W.Crockett.
18. Charlie F.
19 S. Barrett.
20. A.Savea.
21. T.J.Perenara.
22. A.Cruden / L.Sapoaga.
23. Anton. L. Brown.

Great isn't it Laurie?
Blues get the bolter in Ioane. Read, Crotty star as well.

AL Brown unlucky. Sonny Bill had better perform. Otherwise, tough side.

I had that feeling from observing over the last couple of weeks that Read was always going to play.

 Bit of a risk with Crotty but thats why he chosen Number 23. A.L-B.

 I am really surprised he has taken Dagg over Naholo, dont know whether hes trying to anticipate a British Kicking game in the first half or not, but Dagg isnt fully fit and you shouldnt give the opposition an even chance.

 Its a good first test team.

 Shag does select giving credit to players who have always been loyal and performed for him in the past.

Jaysus - imagine being able to leave Savea and Naholo out...

Even when fully fit, is Dagg really one of the two best wingers in NZ?

George Carlin wrote:Jaysus - imagine being able to leave Savea and Naholo out...

 Do you think they are bad decisions?

LondonTiger wrote:Even when fully fit, is Dagg really one of the two best wingers in NZ?

 Maybe its a game that needs more fullbacks than wings?

aucklandlaurie wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Jaysus - imagine being able to leave Savea and Naholo out...

 Do you think they are bad decisions?

I would have taken Naholo. Seymour is a terrific back in the air, and we was made to look very ordinary.

I'd leave Dagg out.