Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

Match thread here

https://www.606v2.com/t65930-new-zealand-v-british-irish-lions-24-june

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Jaysus - imagine being able to leave Savea and Naholo out...

 Do you think they are bad decisions?

I would have taken Naholo. Seymour is a terrific back in the air, and we was made to look very ordinary.

I'd leave Dagg out.

 I agree rugger, during the Lions Crusaders game Dagg could hardly run, hence the only rationale is that other than a miraculous recovery he is after a fullback, if you are going to do that then why not play Cruden at firste five and Beaudie Barrett back to fullback? which would give attacking options from a different style.

I'm assuming anyone leaving Itoje out would be god Lawes. Not sure that's a realistic option after Tuesdays match. anyone mentioning pens against Itoje and mentioning jones as a good option is a fool. Anyone who is claiming his 5 min cameo is a good sign is worse as ge could have cost us a yellow 0u4 pen try and the following scores.

aucklandlaurie wrote:All Black Test team to Play the British and Irish Lions at Eden Park on Saturday:

15. Ben Smith.
14. Israel Dagg.
13. Ryan Crotty.
12. Sonny Bill Williams.
11. Rieko Ioane.
10. Beauden Barrett.
9. Aaron Smith.
8. Kieren Read (C).
7. Sam Cane. 
6. Jerome Keino.
5. Sam Whitelock.
4. Brodie Rettalick.
3. Owen Franks.
2. Codie Taylor.
1. Joe Moody.

Reserves:
16. N. Harris.
17. W.Crockett.
18. Charlie F.
19 S. Barrett.
20. A.Savea.
21. T.J.Perenara.
22. A.Cruden / L.Sapoaga.
23. Anton. L. Brown.

Not too shabby. There's one or two names there I'd sign for Gwent Dragons!

The only slither of hope is that I think they will be weakened when they bring those subs on (although only a tiny amount)

RDW_Scotland wrote:The only slither of hope is that I think they will be weakened when they bring those subs on (although only a tiny amount)

A tiny slither that, RDW! And I dread to think what our subs will be.

Will be interesting to see how the best lock combo in the world will do in this match.

NZ might struggle to contain them

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm assuming anyone leaving Itoje out would be god Lawes.  Not sure that's a realistic option after Tuesdays match. anyone mentioning pens against Itoje and mentioning jones as a good option is a fool.  Anyone who is claiming his 5 min cameo is a good sign is worse as ge could have cost us a yellow 0u4 pen try and the following scores.

To be honest 7.5 I don't think I've seen anyone championing AWJ for a test spot in the past week or so. My position is still the same as it was before the tour (and this goes for all selected). I personally think AWJ was/is good enough to tour. Others will disagree. But I think/thought you could make a case for him being one of the top 5 or 6 locks. Again others will disagree. But I always said that every player selected should then have to play themselves into the test side. Which he hasn't. Same as some other players who have been selected but not shown up well on tour. So for me he's on tour but hasn't shown anywhere near enough to make the test team. But we'd only know that after the first few games. Since then I don't think anyone has been pushing his case on here for inclusion, have they? Maybe Gwlad?! But he's just a massive WUM that everyone falls for for some reason!

I completely agree Griff. I'm really fearful in 4 or so mim there will be a s storm. I may join it. I currently expect jones and Warburton to start. If it don't happen ill roll back my criticism of Gatland.

Griff wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:All Black Test team to Play the British and Irish Lions at Eden Park on Saturday:

15. Ben Smith.
14. Israel Dagg.
13. Ryan Crotty.
12. Sonny Bill Williams.
11. Rieko Ioane.
10. Beauden Barrett.
9. Aaron Smith.
8. Kieren Read (C).
7. Sam Cane. 
6. Jerome Keino.
5. Sam Whitelock.
4. Brodie Rettalick.
3. Owen Franks.
2. Codie Taylor.
1. Joe Moody.

Reserves:
16. N. Harris.
17. W.Crockett.
18. Charlie F.
19 S. Barrett.
20. A.Savea.
21. T.J.Perenara.
22. A.Cruden / L.Sapoaga.
23. Anton. L. Brown.

Not too shabby. There's one or two names there I'd sign for Gwent Dragons!

Isn't it just the dragons now?

lostinwales wrote:Will be interesting to see how the best lock combo in the world will do in this match.

NZ might struggle to contain them

So not this test then

Just in case...

Backs: 15 Liam Williams (Wales); 14 Anthony Watson (England), 13 Jonathan Davies (Wales), 12 Ben Te'o (England), 11 Elliot Daly (England); 10 Owen Farrell (England), 9 Conor Murray (Ireland);

Forwards: 1 Mako Vunipola (England), 2 Jamie George (England), 3 Tadhg Furlong (Ireland); 4 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales), 5 George Kruis (England); 6 Peter O'Mahony - captain (Ireland), 7 Sean O'Brien (Ireland), 8 Taulupe Faletau (Wales).

Replacements: 16 Ken Owens (Wales), 17 Jack McGrath (Ireland), 18 Kyle Sinckler (England), 19 Maro Itoje (England), 20 Sam Warburton (Wales), 21 Rhys Webb (Wales), 22 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland), 23 Leigh Halfpenny (Wales).

9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Remind me. Which Lions country is ranked well below any of the others? Based on this selection it must be Scotland but I have a feeling it might not be.

Exiledinborders wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Remind me. Which Lions country is ranked well below any of the others? Based on this selection it must be Scotland but I have a feeling it might not be.

They keep snubbing the call ups - first coaches and now players. Must make the selectors think twice

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Itoje, Lawes, (Henderson & Launchbury)

2nd,3rd,4th & 5th best locks available to the Lions.

Apart from that I'm pleasantly surprised by the starting XV.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

If you gained anything from your time in Wales it was a personality. When are you moving back here?

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

 Probably for the same reason that you would mention England, Wales and Ireland.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

 Probably for the same reason that you would mention England, Wales and Ireland.

As you can see we don't really figure in the Lions plans. In truth the all blacks will probably have more Scottish connections than the Lions.

Some of them will probably have Scottish grandparents... shame they chose to represent NZ

aucklandlaurie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

 Probably for the same reason that you would mention England, Wales and Ireland.

Whoosh!

Griff wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Remind me. Which Lions country is ranked well below any of the others? Based on this selection it must be Scotland but I have a feeling it might not be.

They keep snubbing the call ups - first coaches and now players. Must make the selectors think twice

There is no doubt that the Welsh selections are the most contentious. AWJ as much as I like him has not had as much of an impact as a player of his calibre should. Same with Liam Williams and Jonathan Davies. Warburton should not have made the bench IMO, Tipuric deserves it more and Halfpenny shouldnt even be on tour IMO. 8 Welsh is definitely not a reflection of where the strength currently lies in the NH.

However, it is what it is of the Scots only Seymour has staked a claim so he is pretty unlucky. I hope he gets selected later on in the series. Roll on the first test.

Lions 18 - NZ 5.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:There is no doubt that the Welsh selections are the most contentious. AWJ as much as I like him has not had as much of an impact as a player of his calibre should. Same with Liam Williams and Jonathan Davies. Warburton should not have made the bench IMO, Tipuric deserves it more and Halfpenny shouldnt even be on tour IMO. 8 Welsh is definitely not a reflection of where the strength currently lies in the NH.

However, it is what it is of the Scots only Seymour has staked a claim so he is pretty unlucky. I hope he gets selected later on in the series. Roll on the first test.

Lions 18 - NZ 5.

AWJ agreed. Williams has been poor but had a good last game, and has replaced a guy who you say shouldn't be there. Not many back 3 players have stood up, so there aren't unlimited options. Davies has been good, there's arguments for Joseph but I don't think this is particularly contentious. Warburton maybe but he's dropped his tour captain to the bench, pretty big call as it is, not really a Welsh issue if you'd have Tips instead.

It is ridiculous that there are no Scots in the Lions side.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Only the Paddies from Munster look the same.

Thats a good one coming from a Mullingar mucker!

GunsGermsV2 wrote:It is ridiculous that there are no Scots in the Lions side.

The last time this many English were selected SCW was in charge. And that worked out well

Scottrf wrote:


AWJ agreed. Williams has been poor but had a good last game, and has replaced a guy who you say shouldn't be there. Not many back 3 players have stood up, so there aren't unlimited options. Davies has been good, there's arguments for Joseph but I don't think this is particularly contentious. Warburton maybe but he's dropped his tour captain to the bench, pretty big call as it is, not really a Welsh issue if you'd have Tips instead.

Would you not expect a little more than "good" from your 13 at this point? This is one of the biggest game of some of these guys careers. That said you are right Davies is the least contentious and I probably would have selected him too.

As much as I dislike Brown he should be on tour ahead of Halfpenny and Kearney has also been in superior form particularly against NZ. Browns form is better that Williams' form too. Halfpenny's selection was a complete head scratcher for me.

I think Warburton was always at risk of being dropped. Gatland stressed that from the very start and the way I see it Gatland just went with Warburton as there was no other stand out option and he is good with the media.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Only the Paddies from Munster look the same.

Thats a good one coming from a Mullingar mucker!

Showbiz capital of Ireland baby.

Could have at least copied the serious points over from the banned thread. The growth of anti gatland feeling shouldn't be confused with anti Welsh. It's unfortunate that to back up what I certainly consider mistakes you have to talk about people like jones ahead of Itoje and Lawes on the bench,, Warburton sneaking ahead of a player like Tipuric who for the 2nd lions series has outperformed his captain. Despite this I think the lions can win this weekend. We still have a good setpiece, the pack on paper looks stronger than nz and there's always the hop our back 3 may spark by themselves and not have to rely on the superb passing skills of te'o and davies....lions by less than 10.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:9 Eng
8 Wal
6 Ire

Scotland NIL. Don't you start leaving them out as well.

Why mention Scotland. This is a Lions thread..

@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

I think Gats has picked a pretty decent squad, with a few very brave calles and a few I don't really understand. Overall I am pretty happy.

Good:

Williams at 15 is a bold, and I think correct, choice. Halfpenny is solid, but we need more going forward - Williams has shown he has what it takes against the AB's, and has cuased them problems in the past.

I'm delighted Daly is in over North, he is a very clever footballer, with great skills, pace and a huge boot.

Bad:

Not that I don't think he is a very good player, but AWJ has simply been the worst of the 5 locks on this tour. He shouldn't be in the 23, with either Lawes or Henderson ahead of him on the bench, with Itoje starting.

If you aren't going to start Warbs and Halfpenny, then I don't really know what they offer from the bench. I feel Tipuric is really unlukcy to miss out here, with the pace and ball playing ability he can inject. Same with Halfpenny, but to a lesser degree, as there aren't as many back three putting their hand up - Joesph would have been my choice, with enough flexibility in the squad to account for an out and out 13 on the bench.

Scottrf wrote:@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

Like I said Davies is the least contentious. I dont think he has been much better than Payne nor Joseph neither of whom have been afforded the same opportunities as Davies IMO. Davies been selected in the weekend side both times so far. I think Gatland with his game plan was always going to go with Davies which is fair enough. Henshaw can also play 13.

Anyway all that aside I actually think Gatland has done a better job this time than the last tour and I think he has got the game plan right this time. The Lions will win the first test.

EST wrote:I think Gats has picked a pretty decent squad, with a few very brave calles and a few I don't really understand.  Overall I am pretty happy.

Good:

Williams at 15 is a bold, and I think correct, choice.  Halfpenny is solid, but we need more going forward - Williams has shown he has what it takes against the AB's, and has cuased them problems in the past.

I'm delighted Daly is in over North, he is a very clever footballer, with great skills, pace and a huge boot.

Bad:

Not that I don't think he is a very good player, but AWJ has simply been the worst of the 5 locks on this tour.  He shouldn't be in the 23, with either Lawes or Henderson ahead of him on the bench, with Itoje starting.

If you aren't going to start Warbs and Halfpenny, then I don't really know what they offer from the bench.  I feel Tipuric is really unlukcy to miss out here, with the pace and ball playing ability he can inject.  Same with Halfpenny, but to a lesser degree, as there aren't as many back three putting their hand up - Joesph would have been my choice, with enough flexibility in the squad to account for an out and out 13 on the bench.

Id disagree regarding halfpenny on the bench ...where esle is the cover for fullback coming from? Daly in theory has the tools to be a very good one but if hes played that at all its been very occassionaly as a fill in and certainly not in tests. Similar for Watson, although hes seen as a potential future full back and has played a fair amount at club level its not an ideal cover option. As it is they have 4 players who can play wing and 2 full back at test level. Halfpenny has also been the best goal kicker on tour and gives a tactical change option as well as injury cover. Joseph, whos been below his best before and during the tour, could play 13 and wing as emergency cover. Daly already covers both positions with similar pace, and halfpenny coming on would free him up. Theres also the option to move fareell to 12 and Teo to 13 if its Davies coming off. The centers are well covered for both injury and tactical cahnges, JJ would be a luxury addition.

Im more concerned about the lack of options to cover the backrow. The players selected arent really flexible and theres noone at all who has significant experience playing 8 which puts a lot on Faletau. Stander has been excellent on tour and wouldve given the squad a lot more flexibility in changes.

For me the logic behind the AWJ selection is because its actually a fairly inexperienced first 15 relatively speeking compared to the ABs who have some real wiley old characters like kieran Read, Kaino, Sam Whitelock and Owen Franks who are all approaching 100 caps. AWJ is the only Lions centurion.

In big tense games like this I think experience counts for a lot. The Lions captain Peter O'Mahoney by contrast only has 40 caps and has only captained Ireland on a few occasions. As such I think AWJs leadership will be required.

Gooseberry wrote:Id disagree regarding halfpenny on the bench ...where esle is the cover for fullback coming from? 

Also Williams just played 80 minutes midweek.

Gooseberry wrote:

EST wrote:I think Gats has picked a pretty decent squad, with a few very brave calles and a few I don't really understand.  Overall I am pretty happy.

Good:

Williams at 15 is a bold, and I think correct, choice.  Halfpenny is solid, but we need more going forward - Williams has shown he has what it takes against the AB's, and has cuased them problems in the past.

I'm delighted Daly is in over North, he is a very clever footballer, with great skills, pace and a huge boot.

Bad:

Not that I don't think he is a very good player, but AWJ has simply been the worst of the 5 locks on this tour.  He shouldn't be in the 23, with either Lawes or Henderson ahead of him on the bench, with Itoje starting.

If you aren't going to start Warbs and Halfpenny, then I don't really know what they offer from the bench.  I feel Tipuric is really unlukcy to miss out here, with the pace and ball playing ability he can inject.  Same with Halfpenny, but to a lesser degree, as there aren't as many back three putting their hand up - Joesph would have been my choice, with enough flexibility in the squad to account for an out and out 13 on the bench.

Id disagree regarding halfpenny on the bench ...where esle is the cover for fullback coming from? Daly in theory has the tools to be a very good one but if hes played that at all its been very occassionaly as a fill in and certainly not in tests. Similar for Watson, although hes seen as a potential future full back and has played a fair amount at club level its not an ideal cover option. As it is they have 4 players who can play wing and 2 full back at test level. Halfpenny has also been the best goal kicker on tour and gives a tactical change option as well as injury cover. Joseph, whos been below his best before and during the tour, could play 13 and wing as emergency cover. Daly already covers both positions with similar pace, and halfpenny coming on would free him up. Theres also the option to move fareell to 12 and Teo to 13 if its Davies coming off. The centers are well covered for both injury and tactical cahnges, JJ would be a luxury addition.

Im more concerned about the lack of options to cover the backrow. The players selected arent really flexible and theres noone at all who has significant experience playing 8 which puts a lot on Faletau. Stander has been excellent on tour and wouldve given the squad a lot more flexibility in changes.  

Like I said, I am less bothered with Halfpenny being on the bench. But I personally would be ok going in with Watson and Daly as cover - Watson in particular has played there a lot. I take your point though, Dlay was the obvious 23rd man, as he covers so many positions, and now with him in the starting line up we do lose that ability to cover multiple positions from the bench, regardless of who we pick. I would have gone with Joseph as I think he is a player who could change the dynamic of the game, but agree that he hasn't had the best tour.

Backrow is the big area of concern, I think we need a 7 on the bench to cover for the pace Savea will bring to the game - hence why I would have picked Tips.

If we're going by experience rather than current playing ability, anyone know what Jason Leonard is doing this weekend?

EST I think that Warburton is the best option to counter Ardie Savea. Savea is more of a ball carrying 7 than anything. Warburton on top form is the best man to chop Savea down every time I reckon.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

Like I said Davies is the least contentious. I dont think he has been much better than Payne nor Joseph neither of whom have been afforded the same opportunities as Davies IMO. Davies been selected in the weekend side both times so far. I think Gatland with his game plan was always going to go with Davies which is fair enough. Henshaw can also play 13.

Anyway all that aside I actually think Gatland has done a better job this time than the last tour and I think he has got the game plan right this time. The Lions will win the first test.

Not sure what you mean by afforded the same opportunities? Davies has played 108 minutes, Payne 109 and Joseph 160. Payne's stats are pretty poor compared to Davies and Joseph (he's only passed twice, only made 15 metres, only beaten 2 defenders, conceded 6 turnovers), although I don't think from memory he was always played at centre. Joseph and Davies' stats are pretty similar although Joseph has 1 try and has made more passes while Davies has beaten more defenders and made more metres in 50 less minutes.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:EST I think that Warburton is the best option to counter Ardie Savea. Savea is more of a ball carrying 7 than anything. Warburton on top form is the best man to chop Savea down every time I reckon.

He does carrry ball extremly well, but he is also faster than most backs, and is sure to test us around the fringes of the contact area and in the wider channels if he is used there. I think Tips has improved his physicality in the tackle and over the ball, and his pace would have combated Savea well.

Perhaps more importantly, he is another attacking weapon and links forwards and backs better than Warbs. For the length of the field try the Lions scored against the Chiefs, I wonder if Sam would have got the ball away from the contact zone to Biggar, in the same way Tips did?

Just my opinion though, Warburton is obvouisly a good player and will bring something different.

Griff wrote:
Not sure what you mean by afforded the same opportunities?  Davies has played 108 minutes, Payne 109 and Joseph 160.  Payne's stats are pretty poor compared to Davies and Joseph (he's only passed twice, only made 15 metres, only beaten 2 defenders, conceded 6 turnovers), although I don't think from memory he was always played at centre.  Joseph and Davies' stats are pretty similar although Joseph has 1 try and has made more passes while Davies has beaten more defenders and made more metres in 50 less minutes.

Davies has been selected in the weekend side whereas the others mainly in the mid week side that has lost more games. Its pretty obvious that Gatland has considered Davies his first choice 13 from the start.

Joseph started the BaBas game which was a scratch Lions side with 3 days match prep.

Payne started the blues game and the Chiefs game.

Davies started the Crusaders and Maori games both the weekend tests with the strongest Lions side.

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

Like I said Davies is the least contentious. I dont think he has been much better than Payne nor Joseph neither of whom have been afforded the same opportunities as Davies IMO. Davies been selected in the weekend side both times so far. I think Gatland with his game plan was always going to go with Davies which is fair enough. Henshaw can also play 13.

Anyway all that aside I actually think Gatland has done a better job this time than the last tour and I think he has got the game plan right this time. The Lions will win the first test.

Not sure what you mean by afforded the same opportunities?  Davies has played 108 minutes, Payne 109 and Joseph 160.  Payne's stats are pretty poor compared to Davies and Joseph (he's only passed twice, only made 15 metres, only beaten 2 defenders, conceded 6 turnovers), although I don't think from memory he was always played at centre.  Joseph and Davies' stats are pretty similar although Joseph has 1 try and has made more passes while Davies has beaten more defenders and made more metres in 50 less minutes.

In terms of opportunities Davies has generally been in the " A " team. He was apparently the number one contender from day one. Noone has done enough to change that.
Had one of the others been first in line and all had played to the same levels they had exactly the same woudl have happened...Davies wouldnt have done enough to demand jumping up the pecking order.
The only center who has really stood out is Te'o, and its surprising we have come to the point where hes one of the least controversial selections as a starter despite the bile and indignation he attracted when selected for the tour.
As it is Davies is in and most of us have no real issue with that, even if he perhaps did benefit a little from being one of Gatlands favourites. Its not like theres anyone missing out who absolutely should be in the side....and they have all been given an opportunity to demand that which they didnt take.

Im dissapointed that JJ hasnt shown his best, and that goes back to before the tour. He is the best attacking center in the NH and was looking a strong favourite for the Lions at the start of the year. If he was firing and the Lions were creating the sort of space he got for England then having him, Watson, Daly and Willams as a 3/4 line would terrify any defence. As it is that hasnt transpired and instead we have another useless welsh donkey Davies who offers more physicality and a better all round game.

Gooseberry wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

Like I said Davies is the least contentious. I dont think he has been much better than Payne nor Joseph neither of whom have been afforded the same opportunities as Davies IMO. Davies been selected in the weekend side both times so far. I think Gatland with his game plan was always going to go with Davies which is fair enough. Henshaw can also play 13.

Anyway all that aside I actually think Gatland has done a better job this time than the last tour and I think he has got the game plan right this time. The Lions will win the first test.

Not sure what you mean by afforded the same opportunities?  Davies has played 108 minutes, Payne 109 and Joseph 160.  Payne's stats are pretty poor compared to Davies and Joseph (he's only passed twice, only made 15 metres, only beaten 2 defenders, conceded 6 turnovers), although I don't think from memory he was always played at centre.  Joseph and Davies' stats are pretty similar although Joseph has 1 try and has made more passes while Davies has beaten more defenders and made more metres in 50 less minutes.

In terms of opportunities Davies has generally been in the " A " team. He was apparently the number one contender from day one. Noone has done enough to change that.
Had one of the others been first in line and all had played to the same levels they had exactly the same woudl have happened...Davies wouldnt have done enough to demand jumping up the pecking order.
The only center who has really stood out is Te'o, and its surprising we have come to the point where hes one of the least controversial selections as a starter despite the bile and indignation he attracted when selected for the tour.
As it is Davies is in and most of us have no real issue with that, even if he perhaps did benefit a little from being one of Gatlands favourites. Its not like theres anyone missing out who absolutely should be in the side....and they have all been given an opportunity to demand that which they didnt take.

Im dissapointed that JJ hasnt shown his best, and that goes back to before the tour. He is the best attacking center in the NH and was looking a strong favourite for the Lions at the start of the year. If he was firing and the Lions were creating the sort of space he got for England then having him, Watson, Daly and Willams as a 3/4 line would terrify any defence. As it is that hasnt transpired and instead we have another useless welsh donkey Davies who offers more physicality and a better all round game.

Is there any need for that really? You child.

Good summary Gooseberry. Pretty much agree.

There is still time for another 13 or any position to find themselves in test spot contention as injuries and HIAs come into play.

Griff wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Griff wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Scottrf wrote:@guns (abandoning the nested quotes)

Which 13 has been more than good? Payne has been awful in my opinion and Joseph has failed to get involved for a lot of his gametime. If he was in 2016 form it would be a no brainer.

Kearney I don't feel qualified to give an opinion on but not many were calling for Brown. The second game vs Argentina was the first he has been more than solid IMO.

Watson should maybe have had a selection at 7 to be honest and may have been able to force himself into the side.

Like I said Davies is the least contentious. I dont think he has been much better than Payne nor Joseph neither of whom have been afforded the same opportunities as Davies IMO. Davies been selected in the weekend side both times so far. I think Gatland with his game plan was always going to go with Davies which is fair enough. Henshaw can also play 13.

Anyway all that aside I actually think Gatland has done a better job this time than the last tour and I think he has got the game plan right this time. The Lions will win the first test.

Not sure what you mean by afforded the same opportunities?  Davies has played 108 minutes, Payne 109 and Joseph 160.  Payne's stats are pretty poor compared to Davies and Joseph (he's only passed twice, only made 15 metres, only beaten 2 defenders, conceded 6 turnovers), although I don't think from memory he was always played at centre.  Joseph and Davies' stats are pretty similar although Joseph has 1 try and has made more passes while Davies has beaten more defenders and made more metres in 50 less minutes.

In terms of opportunities Davies has generally been in the " A " team. He was apparently the number one contender from day one. Noone has done enough to change that.
Had one of the others been first in line and all had played to the same levels they had exactly the same woudl have happened...Davies wouldnt have done enough to demand jumping up the pecking order.
The only center who has really stood out is Te'o, and its surprising we have come to the point where hes one of the least controversial selections as a starter despite the bile and indignation he attracted when selected for the tour.
As it is Davies is in and most of us have no real issue with that, even if he perhaps did benefit a little from being one of Gatlands favourites. Its not like theres anyone missing out who absolutely should be in the side....and they have all been given an opportunity to demand that which they didnt take.

Im dissapointed that JJ hasnt shown his best, and that goes back to before the tour. He is the best attacking center in the NH and was looking a strong favourite for the Lions at the start of the year. If he was firing and the Lions were creating the sort of space he got for England then having him, Watson, Daly and Willams as a 3/4 line would terrify any defence. As it is that hasnt transpired and instead we have another useless welsh donkey Davies who offers more physicality and a better all round game.

Is there any need for that really?  You child.

And to think when I pointed that sh*t out I got told it wasn't happening. Well here's MORE proof.

Seems like those Welsh donkeys can kick better than the Kiwi donkey in the 10 shirt

As an aside I'm amazed at how few injuries there have been. At the end of the 2009 and 2013 tours the talk was all about how brutal rugby has become and how dangerous it now is for those who play it.

The Lions have lost Hogg, Moriarty, Henshaw and North to injury and only two of those were impact related - that is significantly fewer than any other Lions tour in the professional era. There have been no injury callups (assuming we don't count the Geography 6 here). This is especially remarkable given it has come at the end of a brutal season and a lot of the players have had to play a lot of games in a short space of time.

So is player conditioning and welfare improving, are have we just been lucky?

Gwlad wrote:Seems like those Welsh donkeys can kick better than the Kiwi donkey in the 10 shirt

Farrell was wearing 12 and hes not from New Zealand.