Lions 2017 - the decider

First topic message reminder :



After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

Actually having just watched both charges, Taylor on Farrell is worse as he hits him in the chest with his shoulder and no arms.

Mako on Barrett was Mako's hip onto Barretts leg.

Cest la vie, but I think Mako can consider himself a bit unlucky.

Barrett at least milked the contact, he was waving his arms in the air and looking at the ref before just flopping back to the ground

marty2086 wrote:Barrett at least milked the contact, he was waving his arms in the air and looking at the ref before just flopping back to the ground

I was talking about the first one. But you're right he gave the ref reason to look at that one too.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

I'd agree with that. He's a no-nonsense player that gets the job done and doesn't have many major weaknesses (except the line-out of course). George just offers more, even at a young age. Gats seems to prefer Owens for the bench. I don't think there's much between Owens and Best and both have performed ok on tour. It's probably a moot point anyway as I don't think Gats will sub George unless he has to, as shown in the previous Test.

Cyril wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

I'd agree with that. He's a no-nonsense player that gets the job done and doesn't have many major weaknesses (except the line-out of course). George just offers more, even at a young age. Gats seems to prefer Owens for the bench. I don't think there's much between Owens and Best and both have performed ok on tour. It's probably a moot point anyway as I don't think Gats will sub George unless he has to, as shown in the previous Test.

A young age? George is 26 hes older than most of the other front rows on tour

Cyril wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

I'd agree with that. He's a no-nonsense player that gets the job done and doesn't have many major weaknesses (except the line-out of course). George just offers more, even at a young age. Gats seems to prefer Owens for the bench. I don't think there's much between Owens and Best and both have performed ok on tour. It's probably a moot point anyway as I don't think Gats will sub George unless he has to, as shown in the previous Test.

I do think Best is either a starter or nothing - his biggest asset is doing the grunt work rather than the more flamboyant stuff that George can do later in a game. As for the line out, my perception is that Best is usually a good to very good thrower, but every so often has an off day where his throwing can be a liability.

marty2086 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

I'd agree with that. He's a no-nonsense player that gets the job done and doesn't have many major weaknesses (except the line-out of course). George just offers more, even at a young age. Gats seems to prefer Owens for the bench. I don't think there's much between Owens and Best and both have performed ok on tour. It's probably a moot point anyway as I don't think Gats will sub George unless he has to, as shown in the previous Test.

A young age? George is 26 hes older than most of the other front rows on tour

I'm comparing him to Owens and Best who are 4 and 8 years older respectively. George has a long way to go in his career and is already very good.

dummy_half wrote:

I do think Best is either a starter or nothing - his biggest asset is doing the grunt work rather than the more flamboyant stuff that George can do later in a game. As for the line out, my perception is that Best is usually a good to very good thrower, but every so often has an off day where his throwing can be a liability.

I would tend to half agree with that, he is not an impact player of the likes of George in an attacking sense. That said, he is a very viable player from the bench should the Lions be struggling in the scrum and breakdown.

Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

eirebilly wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

I do think Best is either a starter or nothing - his biggest asset is doing the grunt work rather than the more flamboyant stuff that George can do later in a game. As for the line out, my perception is that Best is usually a good to very good thrower, but every so often has an off day where his throwing can be a liability.

I would tend to half agree with that, he is not an impact player of the likes of George in an attacking sense. That said, he is a very viable player from the bench should the Lions be struggling in the scrum and breakdown.

The problem with that is that most scrums weaken with replacements and to a similar extent the breakdown due to tiredness so you don't get the same affect

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

I thought the Lions were happy to give those penalties - looked more like a tactic to me, given that they all tended to happen between the Lions' 22 & halfway

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

Most watching had Murray as a potential man of the match

I thought he was terrible up until his try.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

I thought the Lions were happy to give those penalties - looked more like a tactic to me, given that they all tended to happen between the Lions' 22 & halfway

From watching over the years, how many of those penalties would have went to the corner though and tried to build pressure on the opposition?

Seemed they played safer in the second test than they have for a while

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought he was terrible up until his try.

I missed the first 20 odd minutes so can't comment on that, Im just going by what I read on here and in the different papers here and in NZ

He seemed to have more variety to his game

marty2086 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

I thought the Lions were happy to give those penalties - looked more like a tactic to me, given that they all tended to happen between the Lions' 22 & halfway

From watching over the years, how many of those penalties would have went to the corner though and tried to build pressure on the opposition?

Seemed they played safer in the second test than they have for a while

You're dead right there. NZ basically shut up shop after SBW's sending off and only (ineffectively) tried stuff in the final 5 minutes after going behind

marty2086 wrote:Most watching had Murray as a potential man of the match

I thought that until the last 15 minutes he was poor (which could be said about most of the team). In general he kicked too long and took too long making not very good decisions when Lions were in possession. Specifically the kick out on the full when under no pressure and the silly neck roll penalty.

I thought his last 15 minutes lifted his overall performance from below par to par.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Best should be captain. Lions were all over the place on Saturday. No leadership.

No actually that was the first test with POM running the show. Warburton played and lead very well last Saturday.

Warburton played well, and led by example, but Sexton and Murray were rudderless. They made a lot of bad decisions at halfback and Warburton appeared to have no influence as we gave away 10 very kickable shots at goal.

I thought the Lions were happy to give those penalties - looked more like a tactic to me, given that they all tended to happen between the Lions' 22 & halfway

From watching over the years, how many of those penalties would have went to the corner though and tried to build pressure on the opposition?

Seemed they played safer in the second test than they have for a while

You're dead right there. NZ basically shut up shop after SBW's sending off and only (ineffectively) tried stuff in the final 5 minutes after going behind

Barrett on form and the ABs win at a canter and the Lions are firing the ball about and offloading every chance they get and make it easy for the ABs so I doubt the penalties were a tactic unless the Lions were mind readers. They gave penalty away in the 22 when the ball was down there

Just hope we dont see a repeat of Dublin will 11 citing referrals against NZ; we've seen how they tend to react and it isn't good. I hope the Lions stay safe.

I guarantee if a back gets sent of this week Hansen will have learned his lesson and won't take off Kaino; nobody really discussing this terrible decision which, in my opinion, cost the NZers any chance of front foot attacking ball; their inability to offer anything off 9 or 10 after that point supports that by weakening his pack he fatally wounded the attacking nature of the side.

It does seem odd that with how poor the Lions have been at scoring tries, and how the forwards have been key in any wins, he took a very good, and experienced forward off to replace him with a very inexperienced back.

NZ team announced
1 Joe Moody
2 Codie Taylor
3 Owen Franks
4 Brodie Retallick
5 Sam Whitelock
6 Jerome Kaino
7 Sam Cane
8 Kieran Read
9 Aaron Smith
10 Beauden Barrett
11 Julian Savea
12 Ngani Laumape
13 Anton Lienert-Brown
14 Israel Dagg
15 Jordie Barrett
16 Nathan Harris
17 Wyatt Crockett
18 Charlie Faumuina
19 Scott Barrett
20 Ardie Savea
21 TJ Perenara
22 Aaron Cruden
23 Malakai Fekitoa

I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

I would rather have seen Fekitao start but hey, still a great lineup, well and truely good enough the send the lions home miaowing and licking their kitty privates in front of the fire.

marty2086 wrote:I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

The back line's not clicked yet.

Forwards have been good enough to get 60% possession & territory the last 2 weeks, backs should be doing more with it

Would any of those front 3 players make the England bench? Seriously, but England bench could be Marler, George and Sinckler. So that's beatable.

Second row and back row, different story and half backs but again very even but Read and Retallick are on another planet.

It is just whether we can stop their backline and the power there again. And stop giving away penalties. Barrett is due a big game though.

Can see ABs winning by a few scores.

Gatland won't change anyone, but would like to see Lawes start and Henderson on the bench, as we are getting beaten by their forwards and maybe we need a bit more athleticism in there to get to breakdowns quicker.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

The back line's not clicked yet.

Forwards have been good enough to get 60% possession & territory the last 2 weeks, backs should be doing more with it

I don't think the pack has clicked either especially the front row the backrow has probably been the strongest unit and suffered for Kaino going off last week, the backline looked like impostors at times in the first two tests and I think this is the weakest backline yet. As I said they are liable to show up and perform this weekend but so many elements of it look wrong, Savea is out of form and Dagg just seems functional on the wing these days, the midfield didn't work when it was forced on you last week and Jordie was subdued for the Canes in the warmup game.

Gatland will make a couple of controversial changes, not because he thinks it will improve the team, but rather to improve his notoriety.

Interesting change with Savea in for Ioane. Ioane was the form choice and finishes well and surely the NZ backs will be creating chances this time? Slightly panicky decision I think and may be hard for the Bus to impose himself late in the series?

Same starting team then and bench.

The Great Aukster wrote:Gatland will make a couple of controversial changes, not because he thinks it will improve the team, but rather to improve his notoriety.

Nope, although I appreciate that I have the benefit of hindsight

Gatland - master of the unexpected!

The ABs are masters of the mind game, allow the Lions to win the second test and lure the fool Gatland into a false sense of security and he goes with the same team only to get spanked like a banker across the knee of high class escort

Worse things could happen...

Game strategy must work the weather. Tackle technique must adapt, but its the Lions kicking
game which is crucial. Murray and Sexton must be Lion Kings!

marty2086 wrote:The ABs are masters of the mind game, allow the Lions to win the second test and lure the fool Gatland into a false sense of security and he goes with the same team only to get spanked like a banker across the knee of high class escort

They're masters of the "we'll win 8 out of 10 of every encounter and series or table competitions, that means we'll win".

Come RWC's they're a little more human as its a KO competition when sometimes those rare events happen which can't be fixed next week.

Yes they've won 3.. but you could say they've lost 5.

87 won at home.
91 they were BC holders yet lost to AUS.
95 Beat SA in the 4 games prior to 95 final since re-introduction, won the 4 after.
99 choked vs. an inspired but at best good side who were smashed by AUS a week later
03 were easily the best 3N side, smashed AUS by 30 points a few months before and then lost the one off SF.
07 choked vs. an inspired but at best good side who were smashed by ENG a week later (in their own backyard)
11 won at home.... just. I swear I saw Joubert a month later looking at a $$$ wine farm for sale in SA!!!
15 - easily the best team and proved as such.

This isn't a series anymore, isn't a table where they know a team doesn't just have to beat them... they have to score 4 tries, prevent them from scoring 4 tries and finishing within 7. Makes a whole load of difference.
There is an obvious bias also in the RC. SA always travels first to NZ and invariably loses. They have to play catch up. So come the final match in SA they have everest to climb. Had it been the other way around, SA would have won at least one RC since 2012 instead of NZ... and it never alternates. Always NZ first, SA last.

shows what the naysayers know about Gabs...he I loyal, rule number 1, and rewards the team that produced the goods down to the 23rd man. He has belief, shame some of you lot on here dont have the same level of courage.

marty2086 wrote:I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

me too so I guess that makes 2 of us, but I really believe if we come at them harder than they come at us we can do it. We've found a way to shut them down - though some of that was done not by losing SBW but by taking Kaino off - and I think if we can get quick ball wide we have a real chance. But the big tests is how will the pack stand up, not just at the set piece. I expect games of their lives type stuff from AWJ, Warburton and SOB. Faletau needs to ramp it up too. And if those buffoons Itoje and Mako give away countless pens I expect Gats will sub them PDQ.

Poor wum gwlad.

I am actually disappointed her with this selection. The Lions cannot base a game plan on the fact that an AB will see a red card, lets face it, that was pretty much the only reason they won last week.

I can see Laumape and Lienert-Brown seriously destroying the Lions midfield. This really was the game to select Te'o at 12 as we all know that the AB's will come out and target Farrell. I also feel that they will target Williams with the high ball, especially if it is wet.

Gatland has no chance plan b shocker

I just cant see the Lions getting even close in this match. I think the AB's by 2 clear scores at least.

Not surprised Gatland choose to run with Mako. I have a feeling the Lions will persist with the fairly cheap tactics rather than coming up with a plan to just be better than the ABs. Its not a bad side but I would have concerns over Farrell in defence and Mako's discipline.

The Lions need to play much better than last Saturday. He kick chase was dreadful, the high ball fielding was terrible and general discipline and composure was poor.

Kicking does need to improve.

R!skysports wrote:Gatland has no chance plan b shocker

Did you mean by playing a physical 12 in the 1st test or by a playmaking 12 in the 2nd test?

Or did you mean by playing a pack to look to dominate the lineout in the 1st test or a pack that competes better on the floor in the 2nd test?

Gwlad wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

me too so I guess that makes 2 of us, but I really believe if we come at them harder than they come at us we can do it. We've found a way to shut them down - though some of that was done not by losing SBW but by taking Kaino off - and I think if we can get quick ball wide we have a real chance. But the big tests is how will the pack stand up, not just at the set piece. I expect games of their lives type stuff from AWJ, Warburton and SOB. Faletau needs to ramp it up too. And if those buffoons Itoje and Mako give away countless pens I expect Gats will sub them PDQ.

Excellent, look forward to AWJ actually having an impact on the game rather than just passion and experience

hugehandoff wrote:Interesting change with Savea in for Ioane. Ioane was the form choice and finishes well and surely the NZ backs will be creating chances this time? Slightly panicky decision I think and may be hard for the Bus to impose himself late in the series?

Ioane's been ill all week apparently. They opted to rest Naholo another week even though he's passed his concussion protocols