Lions 2017 - the decider

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After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

BamBam wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

marty2086 wrote:I cant be the only one looking at that ABs team and thinking, thats very beatable

They are liable to show up and play above what they have in recent times but on recent form etc there are chinks in the AB armour

me too so I guess that makes 2 of us, but I really believe if we come at them harder than they come at us we can do it. We've found a way to shut them down - though some of that was done not by losing SBW but by taking Kaino off - and I think if we can get quick ball wide we have a real chance. But the big tests is how will the pack stand up, not just at the set piece. I expect games of their lives type stuff from AWJ, Warburton and SOB. Faletau needs to ramp it up too. And if those buffoons Itoje and Mako give away countless pens I expect Gats will sub them PDQ.

Excellent, look forward to AWJ actually having an impact on the game rather than just passion and experience

Has he been playing?

AWJ is nothing more than a Itoje FanBoy.

Mark.

unlucky .....tipuric and biggar deserve a bench ......sexton and/or Farrell will be mashed this game.....and neither has owned the 10 shirt this series

gavstar wrote:unlucky .....tipuric and biggar deserve a bench ......sexton and/or Farrell will be mashed this game.....and neither has owned the 10 shirt this series

I like Tipuric and would actually have him in the 23 ahead of Warburton with Stander or POM starting. Tipuric is the perfect impact player against the AB's.

Very much disappointed that Gatland will go with both Sexton and Farrell to be honest. For me either of them start and the other is out of the 23 with Biggar on the bench.

A little underwhelmed by the team choice,
Would have liked a 6-2 bench split with Henderson, Tipuric, CJ Stander, Vunipola, Sinckler, Owens all coming on air the 60 min mark

Could that many changes disrupt the team though?

What's the weather conditions like? Our front five needs to secure the team a bit more ball this week. NZ look beatable, wingers not in great form, new midfield.

Big issue personally is whether they give Jordie Barrett the kicking duties, he looks excellent there and Beauden way too inconsistent there. Jordie Barrett won't miss those sitters.

They were forecasting rain earlier in the week, but it's meant to stay dry now:

https://www.yr.no/place/New_Zealand/Auckland/Auckland/long.html

yappysnap wrote:Could that many changes disrupt the team though?

Could not imagine that it would to be honest. It may actually bring a better balance to the team...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:They were forecasting rain earlier in the week, but it's meant to stay dry now:

https://www.yr.no/place/New_Zealand/Auckland/Auckland/long.html

That's interesting as latest news doesn't appear to reflect that:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/94477952/more-thunderstorms-and-black-ice-on-the-cards

Hope you're right though

SamTheQuin wrote:What's the weather conditions like? Our front five needs to secure the team a bit more ball this week. NZ look beatable, wingers not in great form, new midfield.

Big issue personally is whether they give Jordie Barrett the kicking duties, he looks excellent there and Beauden way too inconsistent there. Jordie Barrett won't miss those sitters.

Really don't know where this is coming from.

Beauden Barretts 2017 test kicking record so far:

Samoa...7/7 conversions = 100%
Lions 1... 3/3 conversions, 3/3 penalties= 100%
Lions 2... 7/10 = 70%

In three tests 20/23 at 87%. In what shape it form does that spell 'way too inconsistent?' Because he missed two easy ones? Yet the assumption is Jordie would have got all the other 20?

Lions first two tests were 67% and 83%.

How on earth anyone can advocate replacing probably the best statistically accurate kicker so far in 2017 tests for a 20 year old on debut at Fullback in a pressure test is beyond me.

I have largely kept out of the arguments on selection due to mixed feelings about either bias or selections made to suit a game plan. However, we all know that on Saturday the AB are going to be throwing the kitchen sink AND the bathroom at us, we are going to be physically challenged to say the least, the pace of the game is going to be ferocious.

WHY IN HEAVENS NAME then is Wyn Jones selected? He struggles to complete 60 minutes in a normal game, never mind the cauldron that is going to be Eden Park, he is just not up to playing at that standard for long enough to be selected. Lawes has been the outstanding lock in the NH this year, he brings power, tackling ability and now go forward in the tight, plus he can lead the lineout intelligently, is a premier lineout jumper and offers one thing no other Lions lock has, speed; once moving he can run down most backs. AWJ is lacking in most of these departments these days.

Henderson, like Lawes brings aggression and physicality as well as being another 5 1/2, in the tight a true lock, in the loose a hard carrying 6. Both these players would be challenging for an AB shirt, can we say the same about AWJ?

Other than that, I do not have much to say, possibly McGrath and MV swap places, Joseph in lieu of Nowell would be a consideration if we wanted to put serious pace on the game, otherwise happy.

I just can't help thinking that is AWJ, was any other nationality but Welsh, he would not be there

You had me at kitchen sink!

Don't worry AWJ will put in another outstanding display for about 10 minutes and our western neighbours will say he was a brilliant pick

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I have largely kept out of the arguments on selection due to mixed feelings about either bias or selections made to suit a game plan. However, we all know that on Saturday the AB are going to be throwing the kitchen sink AND the bathroom at us, we are going to be physically challenged to say the least, the pace of the game is going to be ferocious.

WHY IN HEAVENS NAME then is Wyn Jones selected? He struggles to complete 60 minutes in a normal game, never mind the cauldron that is going to be  Eden Park, he is just not up to playing at that standard for long enough to be selected. Lawes has been the outstanding lock in the NH this year, he brings power, tackling ability and now go forward in the tight, plus he can lead the lineout intelligently, is a premier lineout jumper and offers one thing no other Lions lock has, speed; once moving he can run down most backs. AWJ is lacking in most of these departments these days.

Henderson, like Lawes brings aggression and physicality as well as being another 5 1/2, in the tight a true lock, in the loose a hard carrying 6. Both these players would be challenging for an AB shirt, can we say the same about AWJ?

Other than that, I do not have much to say, possibly McGrath and MV swap places, Joseph in lieu of Nowell would be a consideration if we wanted to put serious pace on the game, otherwise happy.

I just can't help thinking that is AWJ, was any other nationality but Welsh, he would not be there

He's returned back to Wales following the Tonga and Samoa matches as far as I know?

Taylorman wrote:You had me at kitchen sink!

S'okay. We will throw the Sinck at you. Do it early enough, and use him often enough, and it might be a fair trade.

lostinwales wrote:Don't worry AWJ will put in another outstanding display for about 10 minutes and our western neighbours will say he was a brilliant pick

We already knew, its the ignorants amongst you are being schooled.

I wonder where ebop has gone on holiday?

eirebilly wrote:

gavstar wrote:unlucky .....tipuric and biggar deserve a bench ......sexton and/or Farrell will be mashed this game.....and neither has owned the 10 shirt this series

I like Tipuric and would actually have him in the 23 ahead of Warburton with Stander or POM starting. Tipuric is the perfect impact player against the AB's.

Very much disappointed that Gatland will go with both Sexton and Farrell to be honest. For me either of them start and the other is out of the 23 with Biggar on the bench.

Sticking with your choices , eh , eirebilly ? I would generally defer to your greater knowledge of this game ; but I can't get away from the thought that although Sexton/Farrell weakens the defensive side of the game , it surely gives the Lions better attacking chances - which I thought it did last time. May cost ; but I just cannot see the Lions winning by just stopping NZ from scoring tries - they will just kick penalties again anyway. Lions have to score tries again ; and I think Sexton/Farrell gives them the best chance of doing so. Get a decent lead and they can bring Teo on late to shore up the defence...

If it ends up with NZ winning 38-17 I'll confess I was hopelessly wrong

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
I have largely kept out of the arguments on selection due to mixed feelings about either bias or selections made to suit a game plan. However, we all know that on Saturday the AB are going to be throwing the kitchen sink AND the bathroom at us, we are going to be physically challenged to say the least, the pace of the game is going to be ferocious.

WHY IN HEAVENS NAME then is Wyn Jones selected? He struggles to complete 60 minutes in a normal game, never mind the cauldron that is going to be  Eden Park, he is just not up to playing at that standard for long enough to be selected. Lawes has been the outstanding lock in the NH this year, he brings power, tackling ability and now go forward in the tight, plus he can lead the lineout intelligently, is a premier lineout jumper and offers one thing no other Lions lock has, speed; once moving he can run down most backs. AWJ is lacking in most of these departments these days.

Henderson, like Lawes brings aggression and physicality as well as being another 5 1/2, in the tight a true lock, in the loose a hard carrying 6. Both these players would be challenging for an AB shirt, can we say the same about AWJ?

Other than that, I do not have much to say, possibly McGrath and MV swap places, Joseph in lieu of Nowell would be a consideration if we wanted to put serious pace on the game, otherwise happy.

I just can't help thinking that is AWJ, was any other nationality but Welsh, he would not be there

Agreed. The game swung when Lawes & co were introduced. Lawes & Hendo have the energy, dynamism & skillset that is now lacking in AWJs. Yes he will 'do a job' but in what is supposed to be our most competitive area we shouldn't settle for second/third/fourth.... best.

So it is the deciding game this week end and Gatland as stuck with AWJ. WHY? is it out of loyalty for his Welsh losk that he as chosen him over Lawes, Henderson? Surely he ( gatland ) can see that he is not an eighty minute player any more.

I said from the Get go that AWJ should not go on this tour. But may a Welsh supporter said that he will go because he has experience of past Lions tours. Maybe he has maybe not, but the point is he left better players at home and out of the squad just because he is Welsh. IMO.

I did say the same about Sam Warburton that he should not go on this tour. But, i must admit he as surprised me and deserves his spot in the team.

I just hope the Lions win this week end, and Gatland will be justified in his selection.

AWJ still shouldn't be in the 23 but because the Lions beat a team that had 14 men for 55 minutes by only 3 points, no need for changes.....

AWJ has indeed reached deity status. Joining the current England captain in that exclusive club.

beshocked wrote:AWJ still shouldn't be in the 23 but because the Lions beat a team that had 14 men for 55 minutes by only 3 points, no need for changes.....

AWJ has indeed reached deity status. Joining the current England captain in that exclusive club.

In my opinion the main guys that possibly should be dropped are

Mako - he just isnt the best option and his discipline isnt good enough
Farrell - tactical change, gives up too many yards in defence doesn't gain any in offence
AWJ - there are better locks on tour


None of these guys are bad players but each are showing weaknesses that may be exploited by the ABs.

If we're making changes at 10/12 (which obviously we aren't) then it should be Farrell to 10 and Te'o at 12. Sexton seems a bit sluggish and a shadow of his former self. Farrell is doing fine.

I'd have liked to see an extended run out for Webb/Farrell this tour as Murray hasn't been great (two silly penalties last week as well).

Cyril wrote:If we're making changes at 10/12 (which obviously we aren't) then it should be Farrell to 10 and Te'o at 12. Sexton seems a bit sluggish and a shadow of his former self. Farrell is doing fine.

I'd have liked to see an extended run out for Webb/Farrell this tour as Murray hasn't been great (two silly penalties last week as well).

Farrell isnt as good a 10 a Sexton so that would be silly. He covers the bench well. I doubt Gatland would have selected him if it wasnt for the other coaches input as Gatland always picks a big dude at 12 and that seems to be the best option on this tour.

If the Lions forwards can dominate the breakdown and gainline and we manage to have a lot more possession then it may not matter too much but if we are on the back foot for much of the game again it will be a long night for Farrell again.

Think he has surpassed Sexton now in general but on form he's the best 10 out there, assuming Russell doesn't really enter this from the aus game point if view.

Gatland has been speaking of the choice at 10 and 12 actually making nz think for once instead of just picking a team to.contain them. Whether that choice is gatland s or he's chosen to listen to his coaches I don't mind. We only win this if our back 3 get the ball in space imo.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:If we're making changes at 10/12 (which obviously we aren't) then it should be Farrell to 10 and Te'o at 12. Sexton seems a bit sluggish and a shadow of his former self. Farrell is doing fine.

I'd have liked to see an extended run out for Webb/Farrell this tour as Murray hasn't been great (two silly penalties last week as well).

Farrell isnt as good a 10 a Sexton so that would be silly. He covers the bench well. I doubt Gatland would have selected him if it wasnt for the other coaches input as Gatland always picks a big dude at 12 and that seems to be the best option on this tour.

If the Lions forwards can dominate the breakdown and gainline and we manage to have a lot more possession then it may not matter too much but if we are on the back foot for much of the game again it will be a long night for Farrell.

Sexton was a better 10, he isn't any longer. Farrell suffers a bit from being very good in both positions so both Jones and Gatland move him to there. If we're just picking one of them I don't think Sexton figures.

Sexton just seems pedestrian these days. I wish someone on the Lions coaching (well, Howley, hmmm) would stop him doing that silly little loop.

Cyril wrote:
Sexton just seems pedestrian these days. I wish someone on the Lions coaching (well, Howley, hmmm) would stop him doing that silly little loop.

If you ban the loop you might as well pick a semi-pro. It's his only threat.

Cyril wrote:If we're making changes at 10/12 (which obviously we aren't) then it should be Farrell to 10 and Te'o at 12. Sexton seems a bit sluggish and a shadow of his former self. Farrell is doing fine.

I'd have liked to see an extended run out for Webb/Farrell this tour as Murray hasn't been great (two silly penalties last week as well).

I agree, Sexton just isn't the player he was.

I think the Farrell/Webb partnership looks more dangerous, shame we haven't got to see much of it.

The loop is silly but it works. Has gained a lot of yards for the Lions unlike Farrell who tends to cost the Lions a lot of yards.

Well Farrell was moved to 12 because the coaching team realise Sexton is the better 10 and therefore cant justify playing Farrell there. Harsh on Teo though as he is also playing better than Farrell.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:The loop is silly but it works. Has gained a lot of yards for the Lions unlike Farrell who tends to cost the Lions a lot of yards.

Well Farrell was moved to 12 because the coaching team realise Sexton is the better 10 and therefore cant justify playing Farrell there. Harsh on Teo though as he is also playing better than Farrell.

Maybe. Maybe they think he has international experience at 12 so that's more natural than Farrell 10 Sexton 12.

That's a flawed argument. Farrell is the only really serious option to change the way we play from 12 hence he has to move over. If it were simply that Sexton was the preferred 10 he'd play him and te'o.

I think the Lions will be under instruction to play more territory this week. If we went in without Farrell I'd be seriously worried. Sexton's kicking has been dire this tour.

It's irrelevant, really, because the team has been named.

[quote="TightHEAD"][quote="Cyril"]If we're making changes at 10/12 (which obviously we aren't) then it should be Farrell to 10 and Te'o at 12. Sexton seems a bit sluggish and a shadow of his former self. Farrell is doing fine.

I'd have liked to see an extended run out for Webb/Farrell this tour as Murray hasn't been great (two silly penalties last week as well).[/quote]


I agree, Sexton just isn't the player he was.

I think the Farrell/Webb partnership looks more dangerous, shame we haven't got to see much of it.[/quote]

Murray is by far our best no9 - look at the way the ABs targeted him in the first test and he is a real threat to them, 4 tries in 8 games. You can't not have him. Webb great from the bench, can really up the tempo if we are chasing a game.

Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Really? Is that how it works?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

He also 'guided' Ireland to a thorough humping by Wales a few months ago.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

He also 'guided' Ireland to a thorough humping by Wales a few months ago.

Sexton has played 16 more test matches than Farrell. Farrell has won more.

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Have you not heard England fans and Beshocked go on and on about Itoje's record?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Have you not heard England fans and Beshocked go on and on about Itoje's record?

Yet when he started the second test...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Have you not heard England fans and Beshocked go on and on about Itoje's record?

Edited for accuracy

Most of us think he's just a very important cog in two strong teams

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

But Farrell has a 33% win ratio vs NZ. Sexton's is only 25%.

I love all these "factoid" stats on a limited sample size to back up opinions we already hold don't you

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

But Farrell has a 33% win ratio vs NZ. Sexton's is only 25%.

I love all these "factoid" stats on a limited sample size to back up opinions we already hold don't you

Guns thinks Ireland are special because they beat the ABs once

BamBam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

Almost like there are 22 other players on his team.

Have you not heard England fans and Beshocked go on and on about Itoje's record?

Edited for accuracy

Most of us think he's just a very important cog in two strong teams

As do I. I find it a bit strange when people say 'this player' should be there as he's won a world cup, etc... What all by himself? It's annoying

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

But Farrell has a 33% win ratio vs NZ. Sexton's is only 25%.

I love all these "factoid" stats on a limited sample size to back up opinions we already hold don't you

Didn't Sexton choke on a penalty and cost them another win?

Could have been two wins in 100 years

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

He also 'guided' Ireland to a thorough humping by Wales a few months ago.

Yeah the games Barnes yellow carded him.

ebop wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

But Farrell has a 33% win ratio vs NZ. Sexton's is only 25%.

I love all these "factoid" stats on a limited sample size to back up opinions we already hold don't you

Guns thinks Ireland are special because they beat the ABs once

Until England are tested against the ABs Ireland are the ABs biggest challenger at the moment. Shame the ABs are dodging Ireland and England in November. 2 and 3 in the world.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Sexton isnt the player he was and yet has as OH defeated the ABs twice in the last 12 months and England once at out half. Hmmmm

He also 'guided' Ireland to a thorough humping by Wales a few months ago.

Yeah the games Barnes yellow carded him.

He was carded for cynically stopping a try, wasn't he?