Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

Personally I think Trimble has lost a yard of pace in the last 2 seasons, he's definitely not at his best so far this year.

However the thing with the front line internationals is their preparation is geared towards peaking in and around the 6N and November internationals so you can't directly compare the early season league and pre-season form with the less established players, the performances around the RCC will be a better yardstick.

Schmidt is still the coach, so of course Trimble will feature in the squad. As will Bowe, and Dave Kearney...

Are Ludik, Bleyendaal and Bundiaki IQ now?

Bleyendaal is January, Ludik is as it's 3 years this week since he made his debut

I suspect they'll be penciled in to get capped when they qualify.

Fly half could be an issue if Sexton isn't 100% fit. Not convinced about Carbery as a 10, and things not looking good at all for Jackson. Keatley could feature the way things are going.

That aside there seems to be a strong panel and plenty of options this season, although we'll miss Donnacha Ryan at lock.

Fly half is a major issue now that it looks like Jackson will be out for some time (if he even comes back for that matter). I don't think that Tyler is up for International rugby myself, he will be solid for Munster but cant see him setting the world alight for Ireland. Keatley is/has never been International quality.

That pretty much leaves Carbery as the leading option and to be honest, I think he is a very good option. He has learnt a lot of game management as understudy to Sexton so I feel he will not be out of his depth at 10 for Ireland.

Then, of course, there is also Madigan...

I think we have at least 4 to 5 guys that can do fine at international level at OH right now or in time. Hanrahan, Byrne, Carbery, Madigan and even Keatley wouldnt let you down I dont think. I assume Rory Scannell is also in the mix and I think Bleyendaal will be there or thereabouts when he qualifies.

eirebilly wrote:Fly half is a major issue now that it looks like Jackson will be out for some time (if he even comes back for that matter). I don't think that Tyler is up for International rugby myself, he will be solid for Munster but cant see him setting the world alight for Ireland. Keatley is/has never been International quality.

That pretty much leaves Carbery as the leading option and to be honest, I think he is a very good option. He has learnt a lot of game management as understudy to Sexton so I feel he will not be out of his depth at 10 for Ireland.

Then, of course, there is also Madigan...

I agree Billy, I think Carberry has to be seen as heir apparent to the backup out-half throne. Jackson won't be ready for international duty for some time, if ever. Madigan could well find himself being reeled back into Irish contention, he should be for that matter.
Maybe he could be lured back with IRFU money to play for Ulster post Christmas

Collapse2005 wrote:I think we have at least 4 to 5 guys that can do fine at international level at OH right now or  in time. Hanrahan, Byrne, Carbery, Madigan and even Keatley wouldnt let you down I dont think. I assume Rory Scannell is also in the mix and I think Bleyendaal will be there or thereabouts when he qualifies.

Have not seen enough of Byrne to be able to say if he will be a very good 10 or not but I have heard some very good things.
JJ, his career started very promisingly at Munster and I thought he was the next big thing but he would need to get constant first team action in order to prove himself and right now I cant see that happening.
Keatley, as I said, I have never seen him as an International 10. Far too hit and miss and lacks composure for me.
Tyler, as said, will be a very solid 10 for Munster but I do not see him stepping up a level to International standard.
Scannell should be left to the centre, think he is an amazing prospect there and looks very comfortable. A great ball playing 12/13 and an option for back up 10.

To me, that really leaves Carbery. I think he is the best option and one that should be given a run at International level to prove himself.

If Madigan returns to Ireland, then I feel he will be an option but not right now.

Byrne looks good, needs a bit more consistency and accuracy in his game. Makes good decisions but sometimes gets the execution wrong for me which is better than the reverse

Haven't seen Hanrahan this season but he looked better at 12 than 10 when he was playing for the Saints and seems to be more comfortable with a second playmaker who can shoulder some responsibility

10 is an issue for Ireland but not as much as 9. Outside Murray and Marmion, Ireland really have no serious contenders for the 9 jersey in my opinion.

Cooney looks good, he's been Ulsters best player so far this season and think he'll at least push Marmion for the no2 scrum half spot

In fairness marty, I have seen very little of Cooney so will have to take your word for it. It still does highlight a very real issue for Ireland should they lose Murray or Marmion to injury.

If only Ruan had not stayed too long at Ulster and blocked all development of 9's in Ireland

Paul Marshall would have nearly 100 caps if it wasn't for Ruan, Shanahan would probably have a handful too

eirebilly wrote:10 is an issue for Ireland but not as much as 9. Outside Murray and Marmion, Ireland really have no serious contenders for the 9 jersey in my opinion.

Not sure I agree billser. Cooney has been a revelation so far at Ulster and Luke McGrath is a quality player, I think both will put pressure on Marmion as Murrays back up this season, especially Cooney.

Then there is Hart, Williams and Stringer, I think the depth at 9 is better than ever!

Billy, Cooney hasn't been far from 3 MOTM performances, Ulster's best player thus far (I know we're only 3 games in but he's looking classy).
On recent form I'd have Cooney and McGrath ahead of Marmion for the 9 spot. Competition for that shirt could be fierce and if Cooney continues on his trajectory even Murray better watch out

As I said, not really seen much of Cooney so will have to take your words for it lads. Playing well for provinces does not always translate to playing well at International level but I am open to trying a few options to develop some strength in depth.

I must admit to have forgotten about McGrath, he did look very good last season so I may have been a little shorted sighted on the 9 options for Ireland

Pete330v2 wrote:
On recent form I'd have Cooney and McGrath ahead of Marmion for the 9 spot. Competition for that shirt could be fierce and if Cooney continues on his trajectory even Murray better watch out

Agree totally Pete. Based on what I've seen of Cooney I'd have him behind Murray only - I'd be amazed if he doesn't get a call up in November if he stays fit. I honestly thought he'd be bit of journeyman but his all round game has been superb, including goal kicking.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:10 is an issue for Ireland but not as much as 9. Outside Murray and Marmion, Ireland really have no serious contenders for the 9 jersey in my opinion.

Not sure I agree billser. Cooney has been a revelation so far at Ulster and Luke McGrath is a quality player, I think both will put pressure on Marmion as Murrays back up this season, especially Cooney.

Then there is Hart, Williams and Stringer, I think the depth at 9 is better than ever!

Go on Stringer. Bring him back for Nov for his 100th cap.

9 is looking fairly healthy these days compared to where we were a few years ago.

The 10 position is awkward enough.
Sexton is injury prone, Jackson was really starting to mature into a quality international 10 and now he is gone for the season at least.

Byrne looks ok but he has a lot of maturing to do. Carbery needs to actually play at 10 for Leinster.

Bleyendaal is a good, intelligent player but hes a completely different player home and away. He can crumble under pressure. Hanrahan needs a long run of games and start fullfilling his potential.

Long term Bill Johnston is the one to watch but he looks very injury prone.


National squad health.
Props: Loads of options here.
Hookers: Some emerging but unproven options. Scannell looks the business though.
Locks: Options looking better here. James Ryan and next season Tadhg Beirne coming along.
Backrows: Plenty of options. Conan putting in some big performances now.
Flyhalves: Looking dodgy enough.
Scrumhalves: Could be better but not too bad.
Centers: Looks healthy. Chris Farrell and Aki (personally I'm against project players) are good, new options.
Back 3: Very healthy. Stockdale leading the new brigade of players.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
On recent form I'd have Cooney and McGrath ahead of Marmion for the 9 spot. Competition for that shirt could be fierce and if Cooney continues on his trajectory even Murray better watch out

Agree totally Pete. Based on what I've seen of Cooney I'd have him behind Murray only - I'd be amazed if he doesn't get a call up in November if he stays fit. I honestly thought he'd be bit of journeyman but his all round game has been superb, including goal kicking.  

Sorry lads but I have to laugh at this. Poor old Marmion is the very epitome of out of sight, out of mind.

I love seeing the Ulster fans happy with Cooney, look back over the summer comments and I was singing his praises and saying you were getting a quality signing. And I also said he wasn't far away from Marmion when they were together out west.

But Marmion's games being on Galway Bay radio vs Cooney's games being on the BBC or Sky Sports seems to work a narrative that Cooney is now the heir apprarent to Murray. You base it on not only what you have seen of Cooney but what you haven't seen of Marmion. It's a sort of "What has he done for me lately?"

I think if Cooney can bring it as consistently as Marmion has then he will be in contention. But he is still No. 3 in the country for me by some distance, which is the same order I had when both Marmion and Cooney were at Connacht.

Also, if Tadhg Beirne commits to joining Munster next season, is there any reason he can't be involved in the international windows?

I'd say that Marmion had his chances at international level and didn't do anything of note bar be a capable backup. Murray needs someone pushing him for his place and not simply a backup. I've never seen anything from Marmion to suggest he's anywhere near pushing for the starting shirt.
I had always liked what I saw from Cooney in what limited gametime I'd seen from him with Connacht and he has been absolutely outstanding so far for Ulster. Should he continue to deliver what he has so far then he'll be ahead of Marmion, I'd bet a lot of money on that.

I actually don't think Marmion is great to be honest, just a good impact player, he's really benefited by being the only regular starting Irish no9 outside Murray.

From what I've seen of Cooney I wouldn't be swapping him for Marmion, he seems a much more complete player.

Really?! Marmion was excellent against England in 6 Nations last year and has never let us down when ever he has come on as a sub, and aside from that he has been behind probably the best scrum half in the world. He is a very able replacement for Murray, but I don't think Cooney is any closer, like I say you have just had more exposure to him!

As I say I have always liked Cooney as well and glad he has had such an amazing start there (I know some Ulster fans were skeptical!), and I hope he can get the consistency that has been disrupted by injury. But having seen plenty of the two of them in the past few years, and following their development, Marmion has done nothing to lose him spot as Murray's back up and plenty to keep it

Completely disagree on Marmion, thought he did really well for us when Murray got injured earlier this year. Even thought the faster service he provided made our attack look sharper than what it was with Murray.

Strange thing to comment that "he's had his chances at international level" because Joe hardly gave him any gametime against Tier 1 opposition until the last 6N.

He got his chances because there was nobody else, the next in line being Paul Marshall. I believe there are 2 players that will both bypass him as I believe they are better.
P.S. my exposure to Marmion isn't as limited as you might think, I do watch Connacht games

That being said, perhaps the new competition will spur Marmion on to better things.

Pete330v2 wrote:He got his chances because there was nobody else, the next in line being Paul Marshall. I believe there are 2 players that will both bypass him as I believe they are better.
P.S. my exposure to Marmion isn't as limited as you might think, I do watch Connacht games

That being said, perhaps the new competition will spur Marmion on to better things.

Yeah Marmion got his chances and he took them admirably, I admire your faith in Cooney but it is not like he would have leapfrogged Murray with the chances Marmion got. Cooney needs to continue performing at this level to even be in contention for the squad as Luke McGrath is the incumbent 3rd place.

If you have watched the Connacht games over the last 2/3 years as you say, you would have seen that while Cooney has great potential (although he is 2 years older than Marmion), his decision making and control of the game is not as developed as Marmion. I'd say this is due to a lack of playing time and having struggled with injuries, so it is great to see him get a run for Ulster where he is first choice. But Marmion has been comfortably the 2nd best scrum half in the country and has done very well when called upon for Ireland.

Marshes wrote:
If you have watched the Connacht games over the last 2/3 years as you say, you would have seen that while Cooney has great potential (although he is 2 years older than Marmion), his decision making and control of the game is not as developed as Marmion.

I don't think Marmion's game management and decision making is good at all. Connacht's attacking approach has suited him as he has pretty good service and pace around the fringes but beyond that he is pretty limited.

He has done well in his limited appearances for Ireland but he hasn't consistently performed for Connacht at all.

When do you think he has been inconsistent? Maybe following lay offs with injuries at most, but then same can be said for Cooney. Marmion has very rarely let Connacht down in most season basically since 2012, for the title winning season he was brilliant and came up with some vital tries, and he was even consistent last year when they were struggling after losing some key players. Had he been at one of the other provinces the noise about him would be a lot louder.

Connacht playing a fast style suits him but he is part of the reason they can effectively play that style, he is very quick at to the ruck and getting the ball away to Niyi, Bundee, TOH, and Matt Healy to attack the defence before it can set. Like I say his decision making in those instances is generally very good, he has a very cool head on his shoulders, and he can make some big tackles for a small enough guy. Cooney certainly benefited a lot from playing alongside him (despite being older) and under Lam.

I do like though that Ulster fans have gone from not sure about Cooney in the summer to engraving his name on the their nearest tree inside a heart!

Marshes wrote:I do like though that Ulster fans have gone from not sure about Cooney in the summer to engraving his name on the their nearest tree inside a heart!

Agreed, its a hilarious thread to read. Like usually you cannot compare players directly so its all a bit my da is bigger than yours, but we here literally have an example where Cooney could not get pasts Marmion for years (including a PRO12 winning year) and was loaned out by Leinster where he couldn't get past 34 year olds Reddan/Boss and now he should be on the bench for Ireland after 3 Ulster games. Cooney is a good player and I am happy he is doing so well at Ulster, but he is going to need to show a lot more in some bigger games before he will play for Ireland.

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

Easy if ye are Schmidt. Pick Leinster players and if any of them are injured, bite your tongue and look at the other provinces

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

Easy if ye are Schmidt. Pick Leinster players and if any of them are injured, bite your tongue and look at the other provinces

I thought the plan for injured players was to call up Fergus McFadden?

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

Easy if ye are Schmidt. Pick Leinster players and if any of them are injured, bite your tongue and look at the other provinces

I thought the plan for injured players was to call up Fergus McFadden?

Feck it rodders, ye win this round

"Agreed, its a hilarious thread to read"

I'm happy we can be of so much entertainment to you however, the comments defending the distinctly average and limited Marmion could well be seen as just as hilarious. He had his international place because there was nobody else. Now there are two players who will, if current forms remain, bypass him maybe this season. If he has another level then fair play to him, I don't think he does.

In the past, a player moving to another club has transformed because of what's around him, the players, the environment, the whole culture. Cooney is playing above any level I ever saw him play and I was excited by what I'd seen of him in the past. Ulster obviously works for him and if he keeps going as he has started I absolutely believe he'll be ahead of Marmion, I'd bet good money on it.

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

I think it's pretty clear Wolfball meant the way fans comparing players is a bit "my da is bigger that your da" when they comparison are rarely as easy as only player is better than the other. Coaches would also need to consider a player's role within a team and if their attributes are suited to the system, it is not just about the better player. But in the case of the two we are discussing we have fairly clear example where Cooney couldn't get past Marmion for 5 years, and both the Irish and Connacht coaches appeared to agree by selecting Marmion as Murray's backup.

I feel you might have picked that comment so as not to address the other points.

Marshes wrote:
I feel you might have picked that comment so as not to address the other points.

Which points? The comparison between Cooney and Marmion? Well that is discussed in depth over numerous previous posts and dismissed as my da is bigger than yours talk.

So no point continuing really which is a pity as this was once a sports debating forum.

Pete330v2 wrote:"Agreed, its a hilarious thread to read"

I'm happy we can be of so much entertainment to you however, the comments defending the distinctly average and limited Marmion could well be seen as just as hilarious. He had his international place because there was nobody else. Now there are two players who will, if current forms remain, bypass him maybe this season. If he has another level then fair play to him, I don't think he does.

In the past, a player moving to another club has transformed because of what's around him, the players, the environment, the whole culture. Cooney is playing above any level I ever saw him play and I was excited by what I'd seen of him in the past. Ulster obviously works for him and if he keeps going as he has started I absolutely believe he'll be ahead of Marmion, I'd bet good money on it.

Pete it is hilarious because you are saying he "had his place because there was nobody else" and that "nobody else" category included Cooney until he was magically unearthed by Ulster fans in September 2017! Cooney has been there and behind Marmion for years unable to break through as Connacht fans know, but now because you can see him on BBC NI he deserves international caps?! I think Connacht fans are very happy to see Cooney doing well and I'd love to see him push on and compete at the required level (even though he is older than Marmion), but he will need to put the pressure on a lot longer than three weeks.

Also Marmion may have got there because there because a lack of decent scrum halfs in the other provinces (only way Connacht players will get a look in tbf) but he has done absolutely whats been required of him. For Ireland he stepped into the England game with Murray out and was excellent, and in the summer games he had two tries and two wins. He has played once so far this season where you could have see him (vs Kings, unless you were at Rodney Parade last week) and was again very dangerous.

A change of scenery can have a restorative effect and Ulster certainly seems to be a good fit for Cooney, but if you never saw him play to this level you mustn't have seen him much for Connacht. He was always a very capable deputy to Marmion when fit and is certainly an upgrade for Ulster on Paul Marshall, but he has a ways to go.

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:
I feel you might have picked that comment so as not to address the other points.

Which points? The comparison between Cooney and Marmion? Well that is discussed in depth over numerous previous  posts and dismissed as my da is bigger than yours talk.

So no point continuing really which is a pity as this was once a sports debating forum.

Where in this thread was in discussed in depth? It was just said Marmion is limited or "just not that good" and that on recent form (i.e. three games vs Marmion's one) McGrath and Cooney are ahead of him. That is hardly a deep dive is it, in fact it's a pretty shallow dismissal.

The point presented to you was that Cooney hasn't been able to dislodge Marmion in five seasons, having not been able to cut through at Leinster, and now that he is playing at Ravenhill he is a better player? And that this was not obvious to Connacht or Irish selectors during that time, or ulster fans until three weeks ago?

I will continue to say I really do hope Cooney pushes on and am delighted he has had a good start, but we will need to see a lot more consistency before he is considered challenging Marmion as backup to Murray. Don't get too hype.

Marshes wrote:
The point presented to you was that Cooney hasn't been able to dislodge Marmion in five seasons, having not been able to cut through at Leinster, and now that he is playing at Ravenhill he is a better player?

That is the essence of it yes. The Connacht management may well have seen something I didn't but I am quite within my rights to disagree and say they got it wrong. Given their performances last season and this one to date I wouldn't be considering them all knowing down there.

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:
The point presented to you was that Cooney hasn't been able to dislodge Marmion in five seasons, having not been able to cut through at Leinster, and now that he is playing at Ravenhill he is a better player?

That is the essence of it yes. The Connacht management may well have seen something I didn't but I am quite within my rights to disagree and say they got it wrong. Given their performances last season and this one to date I wouldn't be considering them all knowing down there.

I mean you can include the two Connacht fans in this thread, most any Connacht and Irish fans, and the Irish management in considering Marmion ahead of Cooney to date along with the Connacht management.

You are right that any of those groups haven't been all knowing in their conclusions to date, but "it's my right to disagree" isn't much of a counter position, it continues to dance around where Marmion has so failed that Cooney has so excelled. The main reason for which seems to be that he fails to live in Belfast.

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:
The point presented to you was that Cooney hasn't been able to dislodge Marmion in five seasons, having not been able to cut through at Leinster, and now that he is playing at Ravenhill he is a better player?

That is the essence of it yes. The Connacht management may well have seen something I didn't but I am quite within my rights to disagree and say they got it wrong. Given their performances last season and this one to date I wouldn't be considering them all knowing down there.

I mean you can include the two Connacht fans in this thread, most any Connacht and Irish fans, and the Irish management in considering Marmion ahead of Cooney to date along with the Connacht management.

You are right that any of those groups haven't been all knowing in their conclusions to date, but "it's my right to disagree" isn't much of a counter position, it continues to dance around where Marmion has so failed that Cooney has so excelled. The main reason for which seems to be that he fails to live in Belfast.

Who has mentioned where the players live as relevant other than you? Please don't transfer your own prejudices onto others.

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

wolfball wrote: Like usually you cannot compare players directly

How do you think coaches select the team?

I think it's pretty clear Wolfball meant the way fans comparing players is a bit "my da is bigger that your da" when they comparison are rarely as easy as only player is better than the other. Coaches would also need to consider a player's role within a team and if their attributes are suited to the system, it is not just about the better player. But in the case of the two we are discussing we have fairly clear example where Cooney couldn't get past Marmion for 5 years, and both the Irish and Connacht coaches appeared to agree by selecting Marmion as Murray's backup.

I feel you might have picked that comment so as not to address the other points.

Exactly, meant the fans of course. Look every team has their favorites, its just this is a nice example of something Connacht fans have long seen; good players are dismissed until they play at another province. And so it goes, every province gets some poking, this is just Connacht's. It is fuinny to me that the slightest push back that it is happening is causing some posters to get incredibly touchy especially when the whole premise is based on re-assessing players completely after 3 games. Again, 3 games. It happens every season, some player somewhere looks a world beater then fades away as the season proceeds.

But I hope that won't happen! I would love to see Cooney do well and for Ulster to be top two in their conference. I would love to see Cooney overtake Marmion because I rate Marmion so much that it would mean Cooney is playing amazingly. Personally I have seen nothing to suggest that will happen (though I only saw two of the Ulster games this season) but i am happy to be surprised! Marmion has left me a bit cold in a couple of his early Irish appearances but he has left those behind him and is incredibly consistent now and I think McGrath is more of a threat to his irish bench spot then Cooney is in the medium term.

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:

rodders wrote:

Marshes wrote:
The point presented to you was that Cooney hasn't been able to dislodge Marmion in five seasons, having not been able to cut through at Leinster, and now that he is playing at Ravenhill he is a better player?

That is the essence of it yes. The Connacht management may well have seen something I didn't but I am quite within my rights to disagree and say they got it wrong. Given their performances last season and this one to date I wouldn't be considering them all knowing down there.

I mean you can include the two Connacht fans in this thread, most any Connacht and Irish fans, and the Irish management in considering Marmion ahead of Cooney to date along with the Connacht management.

You are right that any of those groups haven't been all knowing in their conclusions to date, but "it's my right to disagree" isn't much of a counter position, it continues to dance around where Marmion has so failed that Cooney has so excelled. The main reason for which seems to be that he fails to live in Belfast.

Who has mentioned where the players live as relevant other than you? Please don't transfer your own prejudices onto others.

 
Come on rodders that is such a silly deflection! No prejudices at all, I have constantly said I wish Cooney the best as most all Connacht fans will and glad he is started well.

But you've said you see Cooney ahead of Marmion and behind only Murray after THREE games at Ulster with no justification and despite evidence to the contrary. I don't know what other conclusion you expect people to come to.

Luke McGrath is definitely closer I'd say, and he has started the season strongly in first two games. Is he nailed on first starter at 9 for Leinster? Saw Gibson Park started the last game out and I think is starting this weekend too.

Not sure why some are very quick in writing off Marmion. I think he has been very good for Connacht and actually thought he played very well for Ireland. He is not as complete as Murray but he certainly has a much faster distribution than Murray. I thought that when he replaced Murray, Irelands backline attacking speed actually improved.

I will add that I am happy to hear that Cooney is playing well but I think that a more consistent run of games would be far more telling than 3 opening games to a season to force Marmion out of the back up 9 position to Murray. Likewise McGrath.

Well after last night...

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. Marshall
4. Shanahan
5. McGrath
6. Marmion

.....

After last nights games, I do hope that people now see that Blyendaal is not the back up to Sexton at 10. I know that Carbery played at 15 for Leinster but most good attacking platforms from Leinster came through him. May just be learning the big games at 15 but he really seems to be the best 10 in Ireland outside of Sexton right now (Jackson unavailable so not in reckoning).