Ireland November Tests.

First topic message reminder :

What would we like to see?
With ringrose definitely out, and henshaw and Payne looking unlikely, who shall step into the centre pairing?
If all our back row are fit whats the best combo?
Will tonner continue in the row or will he be usurped?

Lots of questions, and the season hasnt even started yet

Bringing up past form is irrelevant in the debate. At the moment Cooney is in the form of his career. Will it continue? I don't know. What I do know is that if he continues to play at this level he'll eventually dislodge the very average Marmion, as will McGrath. Past form means absolutely nothing.

Pete330v2 wrote:Bringing up past form is irrelevant in the debate. At the moment Cooney is in the form of his career. Will it continue? I don't know. What I do know is that if he continues to play at this level he'll eventually dislodge the very average Marmion, as will McGrath. Past form means absolutely nothing.

How so? Marmion played very well for Ireland and has actually proven himself at International level I feel.

Cant see how you see Marmion as 'very average'. As I said earlier, I thought he brought more speed to the Irish midfield than Murray did and they looked better for it. Cooney may have found his spot at Ulster but it should not be forgotten that he was kept out of a side by this 'very average' Marmion you refer to.

We'll see. That's all I can say and I'll remember this thread. Marmion is nothing more than an average scrum half who wouldn't have seen an Irish shirt if it weren't for the complete lack of Irish 9s. He may have kept Cooney out of a Connacht side but on current form, not last season's form, on current form there are 2 players that are better IMO. It might not be reflected in IRFU selection this season but if current form continues.......IF CURRENT FORM CONTINUES.....CURRENT FORM.... IF......IF (do you all see that word IF?) then Connacht will get to keep Marmion during international windows.

As I said before perhaps Marmion will step up a gear. I don't think he has an extra gear. Cooney's form may disappear, I hope not but form is always temporary. McGrath may have ended his journey of improvement and maturing, I doubt it. I do think Murray's international backup will change and I believe it'll be McGrath but Cooney could be in the mix.

Are you patronising me there pete? I will meet ye outside Ravenhill next match and we will sort this out like men

If is a very strong word in a debate that actually means nothing in the big scheme of things.

rapidsnowman wrote:Well after last night...

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. Marshall
4. Shanahan
5. McGrath
6. Marmion

.....

Dont know why you have Cooney and Murray ahead of Marshall there, they have barely played in the last six days!!

On current dorm....CURRENT FORM Paul Marshall has to be starting in the November tests, and Shanahan as the finisher!

Pete330v2 wrote:We'll see. That's all I can say and I'll remember this thread. Marmion is nothing more than an average scrum half who wouldn't have seen an Irish shirt if it weren't for the complete lack of Irish 9s. He may have kept Cooney out of a Connacht side but on current form, not last season's form, on current form there are 2 players that are better IMO. It might not be reflected in IRFU selection this season but if current form continues.......IF CURRENT FORM CONTINUES.....CURRENT FORM.... IF......IF (do you all see that word IF?) then Connacht will get to keep Marmion during international windows.

As I said before perhaps Marmion will step up a gear. I don't think he has an extra gear. Cooney's form may disappear, I hope not but form is always temporary. McGrath may have ended his journey of improvement and maturing, I doubt it. I do think Murray's international backup will change and I believe it'll be McGrath but Cooney could be in the mix.

Form is longer than three games, you are looking at the absolute minimum of what form could be to suit Cooney! By your metric Paul Marshall is the man for Ireland 9 spot.

Marmion has only started once this year against the Kings and was excellent. Cooney is in playing very well, but we have seen him play to this level before in the West. He is capable but he has not offered the reliability or consistency of Marmion as yet, either provincially or for Ireland. That is why he is where he is in the first place.

You got snippy with another poster for finding it funny, but to even have the argument after three games is silly.

We're talking about three games against three seasons or more...Cooney has looked really good, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

rapidsnowman wrote:Well after last night...

1. Murray
2. Cooney
3. Marshall
4. Shanahan
5. McGrath
6. Marmion

.....

Pfft. Murray hasn't even played yet in the Pro14 so why should he be at the top?

eirebilly wrote:After last nights games, I do hope that people now see that Blyendaal is not the back up to Sexton at 10. I know that Carbery played at 15 for Leinster but most good attacking platforms from Leinster came through him. May just be learning the big games at 15 but he really seems to be the best 10 in Ireland outside of Sexton right now (Jackson unavailable so not in reckoning).

Didn't see it, was he poor? Carbery I think is the only real backup option available at the minute. After that it is maybe Ross Bryne, Blyendaal and then Jack Carty

Carbery isn't even playing 10 at the minute. Ross Byrne has started every game with Cathal Marsh as backup. Which is quite frustrating, as I do think Carbery is best at 10 despite have a poor run at the end of last season.

Pete, Are ye watching the Connacht game by chance? Marmion is being more than average

Marshes wrote:

eirebilly wrote:After last nights games, I do hope that people now see that Blyendaal is not the back up to Sexton at 10. I know that Carbery played at 15 for Leinster but most good attacking platforms from Leinster came through him. May just be learning the big games at 15 but he really seems to be the best 10 in Ireland outside of Sexton right now (Jackson unavailable so not in reckoning).

Didn't see it, was he poor? Carbery I think is the only real backup option available at the minute. After that it is maybe Ross Bryne, Blyendaal and then Jack Carty

Bleyendaal was not good, he looks lost in his kicking and his game management is being affected by it. Would love to see ROG spend some time with him.

eirebilly wrote:Pete, Are ye watching the Connacht game by chance? Marmion is being more than average

I did, he had a good game but did nothing to change my opinion of him.

What if he has three good games in a row?

Speaing of form, Ian McKinley has back to back wins with Treviso (against Edinburgh and Glasgow)!! Wild card bitches!

Rory_Gallagher wrote: Which is quite frustrating, as I do think Carbery is best at 10 despite have a poor run at the end of last season.

I'd have Peter Nelson ahead of him.

Marshes wrote:Speaing of form, Ian McKinley has back to back wins with Treviso (against Edinburgh and Glasgow)!! Wild card bitches!

Did he not make his Italian debut over the summer?

Pete330v2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Pete, Are ye watching the Connacht game by chance? Marmion is being more than average

I did, he had a good game but did nothing to change my opinion of him.

You're a hard man to please pete

To me, he is still easily the best option at 9 for Ireland behind Murray.

eirebilly wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Pete, Are ye watching the Connacht game by chance? Marmion is being more than average

I did, he had a good game but did nothing to change my opinion of him.

You're a hard man to please pete

To me, he is still easily the best option at 9 for Ireland behind Murray.

I just don't see anything overly impressive about Marmion. He's OK and he'll do for now as backup to Murray but I don't see that being the case for much longer as the competition will overtake the incumbent replacement. Watch this space

Care to put a wee wager on this Pete, just a friendly internet wager

I will say that for the next two years (injury permitting) Marmion will be the first choice 9 after Murray for Ireland

Marmion suited Lam's high paced plan and was rightly ahead of Cooney - Schmidt didn't pick him for that but he was the next cab on the rank.

The difference in Cooney this season is hard for Ulster fans to judge - but the difference in Marshall and Shanahan is undeniable. Basically the difference is Dwayne Peel! They have both faster slicker service and far better decision making than last year, so why wouldn't Cooney also be a beneficiary?

Marmion is still the player he was, and is Test standard, but undoubtedly suits high tempo better than high structure. Cooney so far at Ulster is delivering the game plan rather than the 10, and that wasn't a role he was entrusted with at Connacht, so it's early days but the signs are so far so good.

Maybe Cooney is enjoying Belfast or being on the BBC, but then again maybe he's getting Test class scrum half coaching?

eirebilly wrote:Care to put a wee wager on this Pete, just a friendly internet wager

I will say that for the next two years (injury permitting) Marmion will be the first choice 9 after Murray for Ireland

I'll go for that Billy, I love a wager
I will say that Marmion will be dropped down the ranking in the next two years. Of course injury permitting. It'll take the 2 years to get Joe to see the required change.
What's the forfeit / punishment for the loser?
Get your loser speech ready Billy, make it a tear jerker

I will have a think about it today Pete. I am sure I can come up with something unfortunate for you to do when you lose

Ok Pete, when I win you will be my guest at a Munster v Ulster game at Thomond Park where you will have to dress in a Munster shirt.

If you win, the sa... Actually no point in writing that since you winning is almost impossible

I don't know if anyone watched the Connacht Scarlets game last night, but Tadhg Beirne came of the bench and was basically the match winner with a couple of big turnovers and a try. Need the man involved in the Ireland set up in a fairly bare area.

McKeon, Farrell, and particularly TOH were all very good for the away side.

Beirne was immense again yet it was strange he didn't start. Is he seen as a bench impact rather than a boilerhouseman?
Against Ulster I thought he was the best player on the pitch for either side, but when was the last time Ireland gave a first cap to a player playing outside Ireland - Gavin Duffy?

Beirne is a certain starter without doubt, but he’s also good enough to bring that sort of impact off the bench. Beirne is just one of a number of youngsters to be flourishing under Pivac at the west Wales region so squad rotation, some of it tactical, is necessary.

From the Indo on Zebo:

"Foreign-based players are not picked to play for Ireland, meaning that Zebo would effectively be ending (or suspending) his international career if he leaves Munster for the continent."

If the IRFU are threatening established Internationals that they won't be in Ireland contention from overseas, that could be counter-productive. Pau would happily respond by offering more for players they won't lose during International windows.
This stance makes a call up for a debutant from overseas like Beirne more unlikely.

Basically Ireland do select foreign based players but only in very exceptional circumstances - the Indo do not know if Schmidt considers Zebo in that bracket.

I expect he is not but the Indo are guessing.
Recently it has only been Sexton and before that Bowe (further back Murphy and Easterby)

Beirne knows the score and is coming home.

What is a big concern to me is Sexton has no backup.
No Jackson
Carberry only playing 15
Bryne, Marsh, Carty, Nelson, Keatley not good enough
Hanrahan has sunk without trace.
Bleydaal by default I suppose but my Munster contacts say he is not playing well

geoff999rugby wrote:Basically Ireland do select foreign based players but only in very exceptional circumstances - the Indo do not know if Schmidt considers Zebo in that bracket.

I expect he is not but the Indo are guessing.
Recently it has only been Sexton and before that Bowe (further back Murphy and Easterby)

Beirne knows the score and is coming home.

What is a big concern to me is Sexton has no backup.
No Jackson
Carberry only playing 15
Bryne, Marsh, Carty, Nelson, Keatley not good enough
Hanrahan has sunk without trace.
Bleydaal by default I suppose but my Munster contacts say he is not playing well

First game back for Munster last weekend netted him 2 try's. He has not sunk without a trace...

Good to hear so a late bid for the bench then
I know I should have checked the weekend results - my analysis based on the fact before the weekend

It is a very open selection problem for Joe that's for sure

I think that JJ would have to get a decent run at 10 for Munster to be considered for Ireland in fairness.

I never thought I would say these words but Keatley actually played very well on the weekend. Munster looked a lot more balanced with him at 10, that may be due to Murray's return but he played well.

If Bleyendaal is ever to be considered for Ireland then I think Munster should get ROG to work intensely with him on his kicking and game management. Bundles of talent but is far too inconsistent.

I would honestly look towards Carbery for back up 10 to Sexton right now (he also would have to play at 10 for Leinster first) as I think he is the best option available. Carty from Connacht is the immediate back up to Sexton right now on form though and he has a very good Understanding with Marmion.

geoff999rugby wrote:

What is a big concern to me is Sexton has no backup.
No Jackson
Carberry only playing 15
Bryne, Marsh, Carty, Nelson, Keatley not good enough
Hanrahan has sunk without trace.
Bleydaal by default I suppose but my Munster contacts say he is not playing well

Totally agree Geoff, they're all a load of bums. Steenson is better than the lot of them.

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

What is a big concern to me is Sexton has no backup.
No Jackson
Carberry only playing 15
Bryne, Marsh, Carty, Nelson, Keatley not good enough
Hanrahan has sunk without trace.
Bleydaal by default I suppose but my Munster contacts say he is not playing well

Totally agree Geoff, they're all a load of bums. Steenson is better than the lot of them.

Sadly he's 33 and never been in a camp so Joe won't pick him

Just out of curiosity which 10s were in the last training camp?

Not sure, presume Carbery and Jackson?

I actually was impressed by Bleyendaal last year but he has looked totally out of sorts this season -plus his place kicking is not good enough.

I think Cooney could shoot up the pecking order as a place kicking option alongside Carbery/Tyler, when Sexton is not on the field.

The Jackson/Olding saga has been a disaster really. With Sexton in the twilight of his career and no one really coming through it is a bit of a mess.

Could Madigan come back in?

Not playing in the second grade of English rugby

Carberry playing 15 is a better option than that and he is in Ireland

eirebilly wrote:Ok Pete, when I win you will be my guest at a Munster v Ulster game at Thomond Park where you will have to dress in a Munster shirt.

If you win, the sa... Actually no point in writing that since you winning is almost impossible

You are 100% on my good man.

eirebilly wrote:I think that JJ would have to get a decent run at 10 for Munster to be considered for Ireland in fairness.

I never thought I would say these words but Keatley actually played very well on the weekend. Munster looked a lot more balanced with him at 10, that may be due to Murray's return but he played well.

If Bleyendaal is ever to be considered for Ireland then I think Munster should get ROG to work intensely with him on his kicking and game management. Bundles of talent but is far too inconsistent.

I would honestly look towards Carbery for back up 10 to Sexton right now (he also would have to play at 10 for Leinster first) as I think he is the best option available. Carty from Connacht is the immediate back up to Sexton right now on form though and he has a very good Understanding with Marmion.

Much like MacGinty before him Carty is very dangerous with ball in hand and great at opening up space, but you wouldn't trust him of the tee at club level most of the time, never mind at test level. He get a pass when playing at the Sportsground as it is usually in hurricane winds and monsoon rain, but very often misses absolute gimmes. Carbery or Ross Bryne I'd say would be first backup then Carty for November I'd say.

Marshes, I would have Carty as back up right now mainly due to his understanding with Marmion who is Murray's back up (can hear Pete's teeth grinding to the tune of Cooney ). I would love for Carbery to be given a shot at 10 for Leinster as I think he will be a quality 10 in years to come.

eirebilly wrote:Marshes, I would have Carty as back up right now mainly due to his understanding with Marmion who is Murray's back up (can hear Pete's teeth grinding to the tune of Cooney ). I would love for Carbery to be given a shot at 10 for Leinster as I think he will be a quality 10 in years to come.

Hope you have picked a lovely place to take Pete for pre-match grub and pints when you inevitably win this bet!

That is fair enough, they have a good understanding. I just wouldn't bet the house on Carty nailing a vital penalty with a game on the line!

So McKinley has been called up to the Italian squad for the November Tests.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/41572839

I'm sick of all our players been poached by these foreign teams who can pay more......


In all seriousness its quite an achievement considering his injury and time away from the game. I'm glad his move abroad has worked out and hopefully he sees some game time.

He was in their summer squad too but didn't gain a cap

He was behind Canna and Allen, though he may be ahead of Allen now

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39798941

with our 10 issues where would he be in the pecking order if he decided to go for an ireland cap?

Stockdale and Carbery impressed in the last round of matches. Stockdale isn't the finished article yet but he skinned Cian Kelleher at one stage which was impressive because Kelleher is fast. He messed up a try with a bad pass so thats something to work on.

Earls on fire too, continuing where he left off last season.

My team for SA:

1. McGrath
2. Scannell
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Toner
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Conan (let him prove himself against top opposition)
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Stockdale
12. McCluskey
13. Henshaw
14. Earls
15. Zebo

16. Cronin/Best (if Best can prove fitness)
17. Healy
18. John Ryan
19. James Ryan (why not, give heir some more gametime)
20. JVDF or Stander
21. Marmion (sorry still better than Cooney)
22. Carbery
23. Conway

Just about spot on although against SA I do think Stander will start
Also, unless Joe has changed his mind, I think Marshall is more likely than McCloskey
Cant see Best making it
Not sure about Conway for the bench but to be fair no obvious candiddate


Hope Joe is listening

I know it is still early days but Id love to see Ireland comprehensively beat South Africa in November as this may be the last time that we play South Africa before the world cup in Japan.

If we win our group and they come second in theirs we will meet in the quarters. Given they have NZ in their group and we have a relative easy group it is possible we will meet in the quarters.

geoff999rugby wrote:Just about spot on although against SA I do think Stander will start

I just hope he doesn't chase any high balls

Henshaw named at 13 for tomorrow, being groomed for the spot in Nov?

Don't think so - Ireland do not dictate to Provinces for European matches.

What it does suggest is that with Ringrose injured both O'Loughlin and Reid have been tried and not considered good enough.
So that leaves them with Nacewa and Henshaw and Nacewa is, I assume, more comfortable at 12.